[Theory] [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?
- Thread starter FearxDeath
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As others have said, he lacks mastery over ying-yang release, which I believe is essential for the SO6P technique Obito was using. Hell, you could even argue that that jutsu was a product of the Jubi, thus making it near impossible for Hiruzen to learn.
Just like kakashi said, just because a shinobi can use two elements ( lets say water and earth ) does NOT mean they can combine the two to create another ( wood release ). Shinobis that can is because of some form of blood line limit. Granted obito doesn't have a bloodline limit ( relating to onmyoudon i mean...obviously sharingan counts as one ) but he is the exceptional exception amongst exceptions given that he was the jinchuuriki of the narutoverse god. So no I don't see it as possible.
valandil988
Active member
Question: What do you define as "Yin-Yang release" your just saying that without knowing what it actually is.
Believe it or not Yin-Yang release is just chakra. Yin + Yang using them separately and together. Onmyoudon is a Ninjutsu which uses chakra to function, its a nature release.
What I think your are actually meaning is the Banbutsu Sozo or Creation of All Things jutsu that the S06P can use. Which is closer to reality manipulation than simple Ninjutsu. But don't deceive yourself it also uses chakra to create things from nothing. Using Yin to create the form and Yang to give it life.
Onmyoudon just counters all known Ninjutsu that uses less than five chakra natures. Thats how it "turns all ninjutsu to nothing" it can't do this with senjutsu which is different from normal chakra.
Fear didnt say that Hiruzen had a bloodline he said he could use 4 other clones alongside himself to create a collaborative version of Onmyoudon. He never said that Hiruzen was molding all five natures inside his body.
Read it again.
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FearxDeath
Active member
To be more specific the words Yamato said "Any ninja can use a Jutsu but using them at the same time is a different matter" Just keep in mind that if I had state 2 weeks ago that Hiruzen could use 5 Nature types I would be getting the exact same response using qoute from the same chapter in the manga. So lets keep an open mind:
I should have put this at the start and I will edit my thread to reflect it but this is a deductive argument, so if A and B are true then C follows logically and inescapably.
A) Bob is lactose intolerant
B) Bob drinks milk
C) Follows that bob will get sick
A) People/Clone can work together to form a single Jutsu
B) Hiruzen can use all 5 Nature types
C) Therefore Hiruzen can mix them to form Onmyoudon
The only arguable point in the train of logic is whether or not someone can achieve a Nature based KKG without being born into said Clan/Family. I believe so, others believe no. But based on Yamato's explanation using Wood style is him molding Water in one hand while molding Earth in the other, believed to be impossible because it would be like looking left and right at the same time.
But Naruto already showed that you can get accross this same by using clones and sharing the job. One looks left the other looks right. This is how he was able to master Rasen Shuriken. Now im not arguable how likely it is because I will admit that it sounds pretty far fetched even to me, but it is possible. I feel like him busting out 5 different Nature Types is only a precursor to him using Onmyoudon.
FINALLY someone gets itYou are all going over board with what Fear is suggesting and putting words in his mouth. He is not suggesting that Hiruzen can use these techniques with impunity. He specifically stated that it would be purely defensive in nature as it would require 5 clones to combine the various chakra natures as Hiruzen himself cannot do this inside his body. Hence with 5 clones being the requirement to activate such a technique its obviously not a easy offensive weapon. Most likely used as a momentary static shield. Hiruzen also stated that Obito could easily sustain it. Something Hiruzen might have had trouble with.
It would also allow Hiruzen to realistically defend against Onoki's attacks which from what I can see at the moment that he has no defense against. If we take Hiruzen vs Onoki right now without Onmyoudon we know who comes out on top (certainly doesn't make sense to call Hiruzen god of shinobi does it). It also makes sense why he got the title god of shinobi if he could recreate some of the Sage's techniques.
We have seen Naruto use clones to handle the various processes in the creation of his jutsu. For example Futon Rasenshuriken, he needed two clones. That was three separate individuals handling the creation of one jutsu. So it is possible.
Is it really so much of a jump to believe that Hiruzen got curious and decided to try and combine all 5 chakra natures at once? And ended up with a black goo that could own any ninjutsu? Tbh I believe its possible.
Focusing on Onoki again, Hiruzen must have faced him once or twice over the years and to survive against such attacks, which really should be beyond someone like Hiruzen who seems to have no particular special abilities apart from charka natures and ninja skills. He must have developed a counter measure against Onoki's jutsu. He obviously was familiar with Onoki's jutsu which combined 3 chakra natures when analyzing Obito's jutsu. He also mentioned how difficult it was to keep its shape. He seems to be vary familiar with the technique all things considered.
The way Hiruzen talked about Onmyoudon and the fact that Tobirama put a name to a jutsu LONG LONG past suggests that Fear is correct in this theory.
So if we assume Hiruzen must have created a counter measure to Onoki's jutsu he must have created a collaborative defensive jutsu with at least 3 or more charka natures to effectively eliminate Jinton.
I'll put my money where my mouth is and endorse this theory
....Also his outfit is also a good reason to believe this
I see it being used towards the end of the battle in order to stop one of Madara's or Spiral Zetsu's Final attacks.
As I said earlier, I'm not saying it is impossible. I'm saying that it's too unlikely.
In order to perform a jutsu of that nature, I must see Hiruzen first performing a combination of the elements obtaining Mokuton, or Yonton... you know. There must be something that really proves he can combine the elements...
You can sing, but with guitar is another story.
In order to perform a jutsu of that nature, I must see Hiruzen first performing a combination of the elements obtaining Mokuton, or Yonton... you know. There must be something that really proves he can combine the elements...
You can sing, but with guitar is another story.
I never insinuated that he did. Actually its the fact that he didn't that I was focusing. Read carefully now:
I suggested that for Hiruzen to be able to use onmyoudon he would need more than just the ability to use all elements as the actual mixing of the elements, elemental recomposition as well as spacial recomposition is virtually impossible for someone without the natural bloodline limit to do so or in obito's case the being the juubi jinchuuriki. Now Hiruzen himself said the ability is even more advanced than any kekkei genkai or ohnookis kekkei tota, so if he is not capable of performing any of those, what makes it seem logical that he can perform something several times more advanced?
Perhaps this is the best way to explain: remember haku? Her jutsu was ice release, a kekkei genkai made of mixing suiton and fuuton. Naruto and Yamato's combined jutsu move did not create hyoton because they can't replicate a bloodline limit technique. If that makes sense to you, you should be able to see why the same applies to Hiruzen using onmyoudon. Simply put; manga says no.
FearxDeath
Active member
Thats a fair point old friend, I guess we will have to wait and see, I too dont think its likely but the only reason for Kishi to have the statue use all 5 natures and then have Hiruzen use all 5 natures to counter it could be only to hype hiruzen up. But I think he will take it 1 step further.
This... makes no sense, it havent the ability to undo ninjutsu doesnt change anything.
Indeed, you're right about that, old friend. I really don't like the fact of Hiruzen being the Professor just due hype, but I also don't like stretched abilities xD.
Oh well, if Tobirama was the creator of most of the main jutsus used in this war... why not? XD
How does a justu using 4 elements undo all other jutsus? THAT makes no sense. The fact that is can undo ninjutsu puts it on a whole other level than just mixed-elements, that's precisely what Tobirama was talking about.
FearxDeath
Active member
I recommend you read my short thread regarding Onmyoudon sicne I dont want to reexplain everything in 1 post that I took the time out to make into a thread.
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In it I explain how and why Onmyoudon negates ninjutsu, it is actually an intrinsic property in mixing nature types as oppose to some special Yin or Yang related thing.
Also if you have the time re-read my thread, I changed ALOT of things and added 2 very important updates.
And Juubito confirmed it.
The aproaches are divided in two sections.
A)
First: Hiruzen is creating a raw analysis of Obito's black orbs, which can take any shape.
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Second: Based on his raw analysis, Hiruzen assumes this is a kind of techniques that surpasses any bloodline selection (combination of elements to create new jutsu natures)
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B)
Third: People aknowledge the ability of the orbs:
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Fourth: Obito confirmed his abilities are beyond any shinobi standards
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Logic: We know bloodline selection is something that could only be achieved when people have the genetics to use these techniques (there is a reason of why Kekkei Genkai refers to blood).
Conclusion: The only way Hiruzen could follow the standards refered to Obito, If Hiruzen analysis is right (that Onmyoudon skills are a kind of technique based on the combination of various elements), then Hiruzen could only use Onmyoudon only if he has the bloodline of the Sage of Six Paths.
Am I wrong about this?
I don't really deal w/ theories based on theories because waters get way too muddied. However your theory really only makes sense if Onmyoudon only negated elemental ninjutsu or if chakra itself was a composition of the 5 elements and yin and/or yang chakra is some balance of the 5. However I don't believe either of those things are true.
As for you updates... Ever since Muu was introduced I've believed one can be taught to use KKG or KKT IF they have the requisite natures mastered. I also don't doubt it's possible for Hiruzen to mix elements via shadow clones, though I wouldn't call it KKG or KKT it would be a combination jutsu like what Naruto and Sasuke did.
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FearxDeath
Active member
Bloodline Limit is a KKG which is 2 Mixed Nature Types
BloodLine Selection is a KKT which is 3 Mixed Nature Types
So Hiruzen was merely stating that he was using more than 3 Nature types, which just complements what he said before which was that he was using atleast 4 Nature Types.
Obito said that his abilities go beyond the "Usual Standards", which means it could be on pair with Shinobi that arent so Usual. And I believe Kage's are Prime candidates for that category.
In my Updates I debunk the notion that Mixed Natures require KKG or KKT's.
FearxDeath
Active member
My theory isnt based on the other theory, I dont konw what makes you think that. You said
This is a false statement because it being able to negate Ninjutsu is an intrinsic trait of mixed elements, as explained in my other thread. Which btw is not a theory, rather it is a group of scans and qoutes from the Wiki that establish what I say as a fact.
On top of which we already know that Yin and yang are parts of Chakra and Jutsu. For one we know that Chakra is composed of Yin and Yang, but on top of which in the scan below we see Yamato talking about quality control of Yin and yang in context of Naruto training.
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To say that Yin and Yang have no place in Chakra and Jutsu is just ridicoulus, hell the 2nd Mizukage even reffered to Genjutsu users and Yin Style.
I really dont see the case your trying to make.
valandil988
Active member
From what I can tell KKT and KKGs are individuals that have the ability to channel both natures at once. Its not that they have the natures its this ability to look "left and right" at the same time. Hiruzen could have developed affinities to all 5 natures but he could never channel them all at the same time inside his body. Only way he could use them all at once is with clones.
So those with KKG that might have the natural affinity for one of their elements in a clan would have to train the other more to make up for it. But the KKG bit is actually the channeling ability not the affinities.
Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?
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The name of the KKT tells you plenty about this issue, Bloodline selection...obviously it means a selection of elements. Who selects them? Lol sorry. Remember Onoki learned a style of ninjutsu not a bloodline, so his ability/"bloodline" was to channel three elements at once....
Perhaps it didn't even matter which elements...But then again that would defy the idea of Mokuton being so rare if that was the case why didn't every bloodline shinobi and his dog try to learn it?
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LOL... so it's not a theory but says "THEORY" in big bold letters in the title? Whatever you call it is really irrelevant, the point is, that's it's not established manga fact. Also I never said yin and yang had nothing to do w/ jutsu, sorry if you misunderstood.
A water jutsu canceling out another water jutsu or fire justsu is NOT the same thing as what Onmyoudon does to these jutsu. When elemental jutsu clash it's akin to two equal, but opposing forces clashing. There's a lot of sound and fury resulting in a zero sum. What Onmyoudon does is like disintegrating an object, it removes all trace of it.
The way I see it, elemental natures are like atoms that are the building blocks of a jutsu, while yin and yang are like the molecules that are the building blocks of those atoms. Onmyoudon effects jutsu at the "molecular" level, that's what I mean by a different level. It's a messy metaphor but I hope it gives you an idea where I'm coming from.
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