There is a lot of cheating going on these days. In almost every NB contest. But lets leave that aside and focus on the FF Contest. Because, I believe there shouldn't be a voting for members anymore. We are all kind and nice people at heart. WHen somebody asks us to read something he/she worked hard on and put a lot of effort in, we simply hate to break it to that one person and lie instead saying; "That was an awesome read! Totally gonna vote for you. " or at least I do for one's satisfaction.
Just read Lawliet's updates:
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And found shameful for the participants/friends to read this shoutout again, but on the other side I can't blame them. So my mind has come to this conclusion: Why even bother? I think Lawliet should host and judge. I mean if everyone is suddenly going to play fair and square that would mean that our members are going to read all of these chapters (look at Chakra Wizard, you'll have to read from the beginning to understand the story line, otherwise it's not fair.)
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instead of a quick "vote for me" message. Yeah right.. Zzz
I know but come on, the rules are from 2009 and she update her post today. I'm not trying to be the mean guy here but times change and people change with it. Rules aren't what they use to be.
It's only fair if Mods judge it, since only then we would know our real answer. You should read OP better by the way, because I thought I was already clear enough.. >.> no offense, no offense I swear
What do you think of a group judging of contest Mods together, so she doesn't have to do it alone. That would be fun, for them that is.
Well I can't make decisions regarding the FF contest as that's up to Lawliet, however as said you can expect her to start reading everything and leaving it up a select few judges you are also 'at they mercy of the goodwill' of these judges.
More importantly though for some reasons disallowing people to vote in a contest and leave it up to a small panel of judges seems to be a popular suggestion these days as I while ago I was suggested the same for the SotW, however then you are bypassing half of the point of these contests. It's not just about trying to get recognition for something you made, but also about social interaction on NB between members. Removing voting you completely remove the 'audience' out of the equation, it's only the contestants and the judges. So it would come down to something similar like playing a football match in an empty stadium. The contestants also lose a chance to advertise their own fanfics.
Well I can't make decisions regarding the FF contest as that's up to Lawliet, however as said you can expect her to start reading everything and leaving it up a select few judges you are also 'at they mercy of the goodwill' of these judges.
More importantly though for some reasons disallowing people to vote in a contest and leave it up to a small panel of judges seems to be a popular suggestion these days as I while ago I was suggested the same for the SotW, however then you are bypassing half of the point of these contests. It's not just about trying to get recognition for something you made, but also about social interaction on NB between members. Removing voting you completely remove the 'audience' out of the equation, it's only the contestants and the judges. So it would come down to something similar like playing a football match in an empty stadium. The contestants also lose a chance to advertise their own fanfics.
That seems kinda messed up as it pretty much comes down to the judges deciding whether they agree or not that the voting is acceptable. That makes it a bit of a farce as you give the illusion that people can decide the outcome, but in the end it's the judges who say who wins or loses.
Since I've basically been around the FF Contests since 2010, I'll add my few cents to this as well.
First of all, the points from the rules you pointed out are not new or updated, those points have always been there. The few changes she added had nothing to do with the actual voting itself, more on the fics and the authors' participating. I did get your point however, but that little extra push will always be there, you just have to trust the system, trust that people can judge fairly.
Another, the point you said about Chakra Wizard being at a disadvantage because his fic has progressed far into the story, is also kind of wrong. Yes, you will often have to read the previous chapters to completely understand the story, but that is not always a necessity. Besides, the contest is suppose to be decided on the three chapters the authors join with alone, not the entire story itself.
I can only look at my own example to see that you are wrong (from an objective point of view). I've been joining these contests with a FanFic Series I've been writing for 4 whole years, stretching far and beyond 60 chapters in total (as you can see, I'm in it with my Series Finale this time around from the pic you posted). The only exception has been when I joined with an One-Shot I wrote last year, otherwise I've only been joining with chapters from my Series that went from July 2010 - July 2014. Never has that part been a problem, because there are always new readers coming in, and the contest is always based on the three chapters alone (even though having read the previous also helps to better grasp it).
In conclusion, I will have to agree with Caliburn. Not only because the current system works (in contrary to what you seem to believe, "cheating" has actually decreased a lot compared to the early years, thus making the expansion of the rules being needed as time went by considered a "success." I honestly can't say I've seen any cheating at all except for a few occasions these two past years. Just take a look at pre-2012, that really was bad at times with countless DQFs, Mods (more than three even) investigations (through MSN, FB, etc), contests having to be cancelled and re-hosted, etc.), but also because having the Staff decide will simply take too much time and effort to pull off, and that will also remove the core ingredient the FF Contests have kept since its beginning - The Readers.
Since I've basically been around the FF Contests since 2010, I'll add my few cents to this as well.
First of all, the points from the rules you pointed out are not new or updated, those points have always been there. The few changes she added had nothing to do with the actual voting itself, more on the fics and the authors' participating. I did get your point however, but that little extra push will always be there, you just have to trust the system, trust that people can judge fairly.
Another, the point you said about Chakra Wizard being at a disadvantage because his fic has progressed far into the story, is also kind of wrong. Yes, you will often have to read the previous chapters to completely understand the story, but that is not always a necessity. Besides, the contest is suppose to be decided on the three chapters the authors join with alone, not the entire story itself.
I can only look at my own example to see that you are wrong (from an objective point of view). I've been joining these contests with a FanFic Series I've been writing for 4 whole years, stretching far and beyond 60 chapters in total (as you can see, I'm in it with my Series Finale this time around from the pic you posted). The only exception has been when I joined with an One-Shot I wrote last year, otherwise I've only been joining with chapters from my Series that went from July 2010 - July 2014. Never has that part been a problem, because there are always new readers coming in, and the contest is always based on the three chapters alone (even though having read the previous also helps to better grasp it).
In conclusion, I will have to agree with Caliburn. Not only because the current system works (in contrary to what you seem to believe, "cheating" has actually decreased a lot compared to the early years, thus making the expansion of the rules being needed as time went by considered a "success." I honestly can't say I've seen any cheating at all except for a few occasions these two past years. Just take a look at pre-2012, that really was bad at times with countless DQFs, Mods (more than three even) investigations (through MSN, FB, etc), contests having to be cancelled and re-hosted, etc.), but also because having the Staff decide will simply take too much time and effort to pull off, and that will also remove the core ingredient the FF Contests have kept since its beginning - The Readers.
I gladly take the "No" from Lawliet when it comes right at me. So no need to feel irritated, as I could sense the amount of anger-hold-back in your very first line.
Now, listen, you've called me and accused me of being wrong when I never even said about being right. I'm only suggestion something, so please hear me out first! >.<
You've won 20 medals, 16 First places. Empathizing on First. And believe me, my happiness for you is describable; I'm happy you could make such NB career these last 4 years! Ok, what I've also come to notice of you is that you send lots of your FF's to your friends. But also older friends (I stalk so much. >.>) who, ah never, maybe, even talk to you. And hey, saying:
"Hey, what's up?" Person A: "Nm. Wbu?"
"Good man. *Jabber jabber* missed you. T_T" Person A: "haha *jabber jabber* me too! c:"
"Hey check out my latest FF's, you've alot of catching up to do:
[LINK]_[LINK]_[LINK] "
Do you know what I'd have done in Person A's situation? I would immediately hit the like and plus rep button as soon as I waiting an hour to not look like I didn't read, while in fact I actually.. Didn't read? o-o"
Then message him again that I like the effort he put in, etc compliments.
It's a common courtesy that we say nice things/show good signs to the people we like.
What I am trying to say is that you should not be easily fooled. Let those who want to read come themselves instead of reminding them. Because everybody likes doing favors for a friend..
You've never lost your title as First except for last year October. Read carefully when I say this, Maybe you've been cheating unknowingly. Maybe your friends have been voting for you all those years. Give it a thought and read this over:
Maybe this was a reminder to some of your friends..
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I'm not accusing you, I swear I'm not..
Though, wouldn't it be fun? Mods of the contest section reading all of the FF's, only three chapters. And choosing their winners instead of having Lawliet shouting on and on again about @OP. I keep having these thoughts that'd would bring Mods closer to each other instead of separately handling reports and being busy..
I suppose it can be fun, But the real point of FF's is to be an entertaining prospect for the reader. No one said mods can vote or judge, but the point of FF's are to be something entertaining for everyone to be able to read.
That seems kinda messed up as it pretty much comes down to the judges deciding whether they agree or not that the voting is acceptable. That makes it a bit of a farce as you give the illusion that people can decide the outcome, but in the end it's the judges who say who wins or loses.
You have a point. But perhaps if the Judges are instructed not to interfere unless its absolutely necessary. (being if was obvious Alts and friends have voted) they could interfere. Not saying to change the current rules, merely add an extra caution.
I gladly take the "No" from Lawliet when it comes right at me. So no need to feel irritated, as I could sense the amount of anger-hold-back in your very first line.
Now, listen, you've called me and accused me of being wrong when I never even said about being right. I'm only suggestion something, so please hear me out first! >.<
You've won 20 medals, 16 First places. Empathizing on First. And believe me, my happiness for you is describable; I'm happy you could make such NB career these last 4 years! Ok, what I've also come to notice of you is that you send lots of your FF's to your friends. But also older friends (I stalk so much. >.>) who, ah never, maybe, even talk to you. And hey, saying:
"Hey, what's up?" Person A: "Nm. Wbu?"
"Good man. *Jabber jabber* missed you. T_T" Person A: "haha *jabber jabber* me too! c:"
"Hey check out my latest FF's, you've alot of catching up to do:
[LINK]_[LINK]_[LINK] "
Do you know what I'd have done in Person A's situation? I would immediately hit the like and plus rep button as soon as I waiting an hour to not look like I didn't read, while in fact I actually.. Didn't read? o-o"
Then message him again that I like the effort he put in, etc compliments.
It's a common courtesy that we say nice things/show good signs to the people we like.
What I am trying to say is that you should not be easily fooled. Let those who want to read come themselves instead of reminding them. Because everybody likes doing favors for a friend..
You say and I quote:
You've never lost your title as First except for last year October. Read carefully when I say this, Maybe you've been cheating unknowingly. Maybe your friends have been voting for you all those years. Give it a thought and read this over:
Maybe this was a reminder to some of your friends..
You must be registered for see images
I'm not accusing you, I swear I'm not..
Though, wouldn't it be fun? Mods of the contest section reading all of the FF's, only three chapters. And choosing their winners instead of having Lawliet shouting on and on again about @OP. I keep having these thoughts that'd would bring Mods closer to each other instead of separately handling reports and being busy..
Irritated?? Me?? I guess you read into my first lines, or even the whole post itself the wrong way my friend, I'm only expressing my opinion from an objective point of view as well as putting in my firsthand experience regarding these contests. Never did I lash out or try to demolish you, only stating the reason to why things are as they are and why some (not all) of your suggestions won't really work or be approved, like Caliburn himself hinted at. No offense intended if you didn't take it too lightly, that was never my intent. I'm always up for healthy discussion, this is one of those times.
Also I didn't state you were wrong, I said the way you were thinking about Chakra Wizard and all other long-standing writers' stories being at a disadvantage came out as kind of wrong. It has in fact nothing to do with how far progressed these stories are compared to the actual amount of readers and voters. And yeah I did hear you out, that is why I took my time and carefully put forth my own opinion, or in this case, my own two cents.
How many medals I've won or not doesn't really matter to the point I was making, if anything, it only goes to show that I've been participating quite a few times in these contests so my opinion on how it is currently being run should at least hold some value. I don't mean to point any fingers, but you are not the first (new) guy to point out that the FF contest should be decided by the staff members, and probably not the last one either for that matter. But since you are still pretty new (unless this is a new account, and even so, the point still stands), you wouldn't have the firsthand experience like many of us regular writers and participants to these contests have. I'm not saying that makes me or us right because of it, but it gives us a broader look on how these contests have been run up through the years and how they have changed or developed.
It's 15, not 16 btw, but that doesn't really matter. And yes you are correct, I like to stay in touch with my readers both old and new, so does everyone else. If you are writing a story as long as mine ended up as, this is perhaps one of the few ways to keep those readers active. In fact, two of my readers have been with me since 2010! Sticking around a story for 4 years to be able to finish reading it, now that is dedication beyond anything NB ever could have dreamt of. In this case, both Kuroi and Danivass have sticked around since my first chapter in 2010 and still were there to see the end in 2014. Why? Not only because they are one of my best friends on here, but also because they are one of my most valuable readers. If I never talked to them about my FanFictions, how would I keep them engaged in reading? How would I let them know that I still continued writing it if I hadn't told them? If you want to keep your readers, you have to keep them notified. That's just how it works. To be noted, I only send out links to those that are up to date, barely have I recontacted old readers that fell of the Series years ago. And thank you for feeling happy for me, that only serves to prove that you are a reasonable man deep down inside, and I urge you to see reason in my point.
To give you an example, I do notify people like Kuroi, Danivass, Trea, Kyon, Marhuto, Faha (I think that is his name), and a few others. I don't notfy the entire base like some writers does (not going to point a finger here). If you take a look at my two latest works, you will see those readers among my comments. Those are the few if not only readers I have left as regulars, readers I know will eventually read or catch up to me when they get the chance. When you spend 150 hours and 7 whole months writing something that is only the Series Finale of your long-going work, you surely would like to at least have three readers, would you not? And those three readers would definitely have to be your avid regular readers, not some random schmuck who only says "awesome" on a chapter that takes two hours(!) to read. Do you have any idea how much work that is?? Try spending 150 hours on something only to lock it up and never show it to anyone. That is what friends are for, and no, it is not against any rules on the Base to link your friends with your latest releases. What is against the rules are to advertise the contests, tell your friends to check the contest out, etc.
If you would have done that if you were person A as you claim, then you would be classified as an ass-kisser or even dumb in my eyes. If I get requests from random people to read their work when in fact I've rarely or never talked to that person, I just simply ignore their posts, even tell them that I don't simply have time or can't be bothered to. If you are that gullible, then you have no character to be proud of. You simply don't give out reps for the fun of it, it needs to be justified, simple as that. A rep doesn't even say anything of whether you read the chapter or not.
Again I take the point that you just joined in April this year into consideration. If what you say about waiting for readers to come had been true, then NB wouldn't be NB at all, but an entirely different site made purely for FanFiction writing. You clearly don't know enough about how the FanFiction Section works around here to state such a thing, otherwise you would have refrained from it. Random readers do come, but when they do they only come around at new projects, FanFics/Original Works that have "Chapter 1-6" in their names. No "natural readers" comes popping in at FanFictions that says; "Chapter 62" unless they have been secretly catching up for God knows how long or if they are there to raise their post count by saying useless things like "Great." or "What is this?". And all your older readers needs to be reminded that you have released something new. People aren't engaged enough to check the FF Section out every day for seven month straight hoping, even waiting for your next releases. People often don't have a scheduled dates for their next releases, like my Series Finale followed something I released back in 2013(!) only to be released just recently now. If I hadn't notified people like Danivass and Trea, I would never have got their reads, and they would never have been able to find out how my story finally came to an end.
Son, you clearly haven't been doing your research good enough. I got 20 awards in total over the four years I've been participating (that is 48 months in total), 15 being 1st, 1 2nd and 3 3rd places. Three times have I placed 4th or worse, and one time I even withdrew from the contest because I didn't like what it was turning into (If I didn't I could have placed top three, but who knows). So 20 awards in 24 tries and 15 of them being 1st. I've placed below 1st on almost 10 occasions my friend.
The fact that some people vote for their friends regardless of them reading the rest of the works or not has been an issue people will just have to live with. People are allowed to vote for what they want for whatever reason they want. I even had this discussion with my good friend Escorpiius (yes the mod in case you don't know him) on the matter a year or two ago, and we agreed that even though it's kind of inevitable unless you change the whole format, you will have to trust the readers to do what is right. Some people vote for their friends, for perhaps the only FF they read, because they know the (overall)quality of it is good enough for it deserving a vote. If they bother to read the other works or not is entirely up to them. In my case, I generally have about 1 or two votes that comes from my currently up to date readers that I know of. Rest are made up from people I don't know or people I haven't been talking to in ages. In the past it was different when all my votes came from my readers when I first started out, but nowadays I'm more depended on new readers or even random reads than ever before. Random reads that come from people like you and me who are allowed to vote at these contests. Take that away from them by having the staff decide and you will lose out on the potential reads you will get from these new readers. Since 2012, I for one have been heavily dependent on this new flow of readers, and many of them has come through my FF taking part in the contests.
If you are not accusing me, then why make this personal? If you are not prepared to take any counter-arguments your suggestion may get, then don't create the suggestion to begin with. My opinion is not based on some random babble either, as, as you can see, even Caliburn (one of the few admins on this site) himself stated something along the same lines as I did (and I can only guess why you didn't bother to reply to his statement). I tried to keep this friendly, but the moment you start lashing out on me is the moment you tip the iceberg. I've had enough of those people in NB's past to say the least, and I don't want to go there again. I don't mean to make this an heated argument, but don't make this personal then, because that is clearly not related to the topic.
Like I've stated several times ages ago, the FF Contest was run that way (with staff deciding) back in the beginning. Why? Because there wasn't over 100 000 members on this site back then and only 3-5 fics got to join these contests at most. In the end it became too much work and that is why the current formula was established. I can assure you that like all the times in the past, Sara (Lawliet) will say the same thing she always has said. The contests will remain the same, and everyone and anyone will be allowed to vote. End of discussion. Now, I'll let her answer for herself if she sees this thread, but knowing her and knowing how the contests are being run, what Caliburn said and suspects to be her answer has at least 99% chance of being true.
To end my post, my three chapters alone this month takes around six hours to read (two hours apiece). That is only one entry. No way in hell any mod or staff member has time to read all the entries every month, considering there are at least 6-8 (I know not everyone is equally long, but you get what I'm saying) entries every month. I suppose this rant became a little longer than expected, but if you even bother to read through all this, then you got to understand where I'm coming from. Great idea, but it won't work on NB, not any time soon at least. That is my opinion, take it as you will. I'll let this be my final input on the matter. Let's see where all this will bring us in the end...
You have a point. But perhaps if the Judges are instructed not to interfere unless its absolutely necessary. (being if was obvious Alts and friends have voted) they could interfere. Not saying to change the current rules, merely add an extra caution.
That is basically what we have today my friend ;p Lawliet (and other mods) goes through each votes to check if they are legit and if no one has cheated. If the votings are tied between two or more people, the staff will do the tie breaker(s)...
I gladly take the "No" from Lawliet when it comes right at me. So no need to feel irritated, as I could sense the amount of anger-hold-back in your very first line.
Now, listen, you've called me and accused me of being wrong when I never even said about being right. I'm only suggestion something, so please hear me out first! >.<
You've won 20 medals, 16 First places. Empathizing on First. And believe me, my happiness for you is describable; I'm happy you could make such NB career these last 4 years! Ok, what I've also come to notice of you is that you send lots of your FF's to your friends. But also older friends (I stalk so much. >.>) who, ah never, maybe, even talk to you. And hey, saying:
"Hey, what's up?" Person A: "Nm. Wbu?"
"Good man. *Jabber jabber* missed you. T_T" Person A: "haha *jabber jabber* me too! c:"
"Hey check out my latest FF's, you've alot of catching up to do:
[LINK]_[LINK]_[LINK] "
Do you know what I'd have done in Person A's situation? I would immediately hit the like and plus rep button as soon as I waiting an hour to not look like I didn't read, while in fact I actually.. Didn't read? o-o"
Then message him again that I like the effort he put in, etc compliments.
It's a common courtesy that we say nice things/show good signs to the people we like.
What I am trying to say is that you should not be easily fooled. Let those who want to read come themselves instead of reminding them. Because everybody likes doing favors for a friend..
You say and I quote:
You've never lost your title as First except for last year October. Read carefully when I say this, Maybe you've been cheating unknowingly. Maybe your friends have been voting for you all those years. Give it a thought and read this over:
Maybe this was a reminder to some of your friends..
You must be registered for see images
I'm not accusing you, I swear I'm not..
Though, wouldn't it be fun? Mods of the contest section reading all of the FF's, only three chapters. And choosing their winners instead of having Lawliet shouting on and on again about @OP. I keep having these thoughts that'd would bring Mods closer to each other instead of separately handling reports and being busy..
Sorry man but ironically this post of yours belongs to fanfic category. You make too many assumptions. Just because YOU wouldn't read, don't assume others wouldn't either.
I for one, linked my fanfic to only 2-3 friends, and I had only 2-3 people commenting. Yet, in PMs (!)-that you can't stalk- I get random people complimenting my fanfics- and some of them don't vote in the contest!
However I'm perfectly aware that most voters don't read through all contestants' entries, probably the more voters, the more readers= the fanfic that gets more readers probably meets people's taste better.
I'm also aware that some people just voted for me probably simply coz they like Scooby Doo, but now how is it cheating? There is no such thing as unknowingly cheating. If my friends decide to vote, without me knowing, is that my fault ? And many people link their fanfics to their regular readers on their request!
I gladly take the "No" from Lawliet when it comes right at me. So no need to feel irritated, as I could sense the amount of anger-hold-back in your very first line.
Now, listen, you've called me and accused me of being wrong when I never even said about being right. I'm only suggestion something, so please hear me out first! >.<
You've won 20 medals, 16 First places. Empathizing on First. And believe me, my happiness for you is describable; I'm happy you could make such NB career these last 4 years! Ok, what I've also come to notice of you is that you send lots of your FF's to your friends. But also older friends (I stalk so much. >.>) who, ah never, maybe, even talk to you. And hey, saying:
"Hey, what's up?" Person A: "Nm. Wbu?"
"Good man. *Jabber jabber* missed you. T_T" Person A: "haha *jabber jabber* me too! c:"
"Hey check out my latest FF's, you've alot of catching up to do:
[LINK]_[LINK]_[LINK] "
Do you know what I'd have done in Person A's situation? I would immediately hit the like and plus rep button as soon as I waiting an hour to not look like I didn't read, while in fact I actually.. Didn't read? o-o"
Then message him again that I like the effort he put in, etc compliments.
It's a common courtesy that we say nice things/show good signs to the people we like.
What I am trying to say is that you should not be easily fooled. Let those who want to read come themselves instead of reminding them. Because everybody likes doing favors for a friend..
You say and I quote:
You've never lost your title as First except for last year October. Read carefully when I say this, Maybe you've been cheating unknowingly. Maybe your friends have been voting for you all those years. Give it a thought and read this over:
Maybe this was a reminder to some of your friends..
You must be registered for see images
I'm not accusing you, I swear I'm not..
Though, wouldn't it be fun? Mods of the contest section reading all of the FF's, only three chapters. And choosing their winners instead of having Lawliet shouting on and on again about @OP. I keep having these thoughts that'd would bring Mods closer to each other instead of separately handling reports and being busy..
I agree with the posters above. The voting system atm is fine, it's worked for a long time and it'll continue to work. NB contests are made to be friendly-forum community contests. It's a place where people can compete against each other in whichever contest they like.
Do not attempt to single out the FF contest because in any contest- whether irl or online- people will vote for whoever they want for whatever reason they want. There is no way for all staff to regulate all votes and ASK every single person WHY they voted for whoever they voted. Rules are in place to maintain the integrity of all the NB contests.
The first rule in your OP (that was repeated 3 times) was an inside joke that another mod and I had in our contest threads + it helps emphasise the rule, you'd be surprised how many people STILL don't see it. I think i disqualified someone for voting for themselves just 2 months ago.
I have to add that there is absolutely nothing wrong with advertising your own Fanfics and sending it to others. That is how you gain readers. This is a large forum. Do you expect readers to find one particular thread from the hundreds that are made everyday?
As a relatively new member - i suggest you do a little more research before making suggestions based on assumptions.
" or at least I do for one's satisfaction.
