[Predictions] Fairy Tail Manga Chapter 464 Discussion and 465 Predictions

[milkydean]

Obviously, I am talking about post 'acno soul thingy' igneel here. Igneel before that wasn't able to destroy END(in your words.), so in short Igneel after that is certainly weaker than END, right?? The second version of the Igneel is something that entered into Natsu's body and hence attack that Natsu used in this chapter belongs to second version and not first.
Acno and Zeref comparison is completely irrelevant, since acno is on entirely different level.
END in turn was never able to stop Zeref(Zeref said so himself in this chapter, correct me with wordings again, if you want).
So, nope this version of Igneel is weaker than END and Zeref both.

Post soul thingy Igneel is strong enough to Rip acno's arm.I dont know where you got to the conclusion that this Igneel<End and Zeref.Plus there is a very high possibility that Igneel couldnt destroy END bcoz it was natsu.Also we dont know anything about END's power, plus we dont even know that this attack worked or not.So much inconsistencies and conjecture in your post without much facts

 

[Lasta]

I liked it. Well, long flashbacks next I guess.

 

[A v i]

Igneel coudnt destroy END not defeat, get your wordings right
And if END is stronger than igneel then how come END couldn't kill igneel.Igneel was alright till acno sucked their souls.
Also you easily forgot the fact that zeref needs 12 spriggan, an army of country, LH to defeat acno, but a near dead igneel can cut acno's arm.Prime igneel should be near as strong as acno
Igneel>>Zeref

If Igneel is indeed >> Zeref then don't you think Zeref would've tried fighting Igneel which'd grant his wish? Moreover, how came Igneel couldn't destroy someone weaker than him? That doesn't even make any sense. E.N.D was never stated to be immortal so if Igneel couldn't destroy him then it means that he's weaker than him. When do you think people resort to seal someone? Yes, it is when the said figure is unstoppable. Igneel somehow separated Natsu and END & sealed him because he couldn't stop him, that much is clear for every reader.

Acnologia treated Zeref like an equal when he looked down on Igneel. Zeref clearly received better treatment from Acnologia than Igneel. I doubt Acnologia knows about Zeref's empire, That being said Acnologia was referring to Zeref's individual strength when he said that Zeref is pretty much same as Acnologia. There is no definitive implication from Zeref's side that his desire to get FH is to defeat Acnologia. For all we know it could be to revive END.

 

[milkydean]

If Igneel is indeed >> Zeref then don't you think Zeref would've tried fighting Igneel which'd grant his wish? Moreover, how came Igneel couldn't destroy someone weaker than him? That doesn't even make any sense. E.N.D was never stated to be immortal so if Igneel couldn't destroy him then it means that he's weaker than him. When do you think people resort to seal someone? Yes, it is when the said figure is unstoppable. Igneel somehow separated Natsu and END & sealed him because he couldn't stop him, that much is clear for every reader.

Acnologia treated Zeref like an equal when he looked down on Igneel. Zeref clearly received better treatment from Acnologia than Igneel. I doubt Acnologia knows about Zeref's empire, That being said Acnologia was referring to Zeref's individual strength when he said that Zeref is pretty much same as Acnologia. There is no definitive implication from Zeref's side that his desire to get FH is to defeat Acnologia. For all we know it could be to revive END.

Zeref is a pshycopath with split personality.He could have fought acno if he wanted to die but he didnt.Part of him wants to die and part of him wants to destroy everything in this world.
Like I said there is a high possibility that Igneel couldnt destroy END bcoz it was natsu.
Acno never treated zeref equally,he said zeref can take over the world just like he can.Thats like saying mira and laxus are same tier bcoz both can one shot macao.Also acno never looked down on Igneel.He talked to him and accepted him as his enemy.Plus Zeref needs alvarez empire to take down Acno,Igneel who was seales for considerable amount of time and was no where near his prime was able to rip acno's arm and gave him a wound no one till now was able to give.Zeref shat his pants in tenrou when acno entered.

Well its not like I am saying Zeref is done with this attack either, he never went his red eye mode but people are complaining about stuff like powerscaling when 2 arcs before we saw wendy harming a dragon where mages like jura and makarov were useless.Same can be said for END, he might possess curse to kill zeref while being weaker than those who are not able to kill zeref.Mard geer devised memento mori to kill zeref but it was countered by des magic.

 

[The Sach]

Post soul thingy Igneel is strong enough to Rip acno's arm.I dont know where you got to the conclusion that this Igneel<End and Zeref.Plus there is a very high possibility that Igneel couldnt destroy END bcoz it was natsu.Also we dont know anything about END's power, plus we dont even know that this attack worked or not.So much inconsistencies and conjecture in your post without much facts

@bold, yes and still, that doesn't change the possibility that, he is weaker than Zeref and END.
Now, lets set timeframe here:

-Four hundred years ago, Igneel, out of choice, failed to destroy the most vile Demon in the Books of Zeref: E.N.D.
-Also sometime during this four hundred years past, Igneel, like many other Dragons, had his soul stolen from him by Acnologia's Dragon Slayer Magic, which left him weakened and half-dead
-Many years later, Igneel found a young human boy, Natsu Dragneel, in the forest and taught him how to write, speak and use his signature Lost Dragon Slayer Magic: Fire Dragon Slayer Magic, which gave Natsu the traits of Igneel himself.

Igneel came across Natsu many years after the he fought END. When he fought END, for him it was END and not Natsu, since he didn't know he was Natsu until he met Natsu years later(there is nothing that suggests otherwise) and hence it isn't possible that Igneel didn't destroy END because it was Natsu.
If you really think that this attack didn't work, then this discussion is meaningless, since I am pretty much going with the looks that this attack worked.
I don't really see the single inconsistency here, except that Natsu's attack(derived from weak Igneel) worked against strong Zeref. Imo, Hiro would have shown Natsu controlling his END power or something and using it against Zeref, it would have been much better.

 

[milkydean]

@bold, yes and still, that doesn't change the possibility that, he is weaker than Zeref and END.
Now, lets set timeframe here:

Igneel came across Natsu many years after the he fought END. When he fought END, for him it was END and not Natsu, since he didn't know he was Natsu until he met Natsu years later(there is nothing that suggests otherwise) and hence it isn't possible that Igneel didn't destroy END because it was Natsu.
If you really think that this attack didn't work, then this discussion is meaningless, since I am pretty much going with the looks that this attack worked.
I don't really see the single inconsistency here, except that Natsu's attack(derived from weak Igneel) worked against strong Zeref. Imo, Hiro would have shown Natsu controlling his END power or something and using it against Zeref, it would have been much better.

Where the hell did you find these infos?There is absolutely no mention in manga that igneel found natsu randomly in a forest.

 

[A v i]

Zeref is a pshycopath with split personality.He could have fought acno if he wanted to die but he didnt.Part of him wants to die and part of him wants to destroy everything in this world.
Like I said there is a high possibility that Igneel couldnt destroy END bcoz it was natsu.
Acno never treated zeref equally,he said zeref can take over the world just like he can.Thats like saying mira and laxus are same tier bcoz both can one shot macao.Also acno never looked down on Igneel.He talked to him and accepted him as his enemy.Plus Zeref needs alvarez empire to take down Acno,Igneel who was seales for considerable amount of time and was no where near his prime was able to rip acno's arm and gave him a wound no one till now was able to give.Zeref shat his pants in tenrou when acno entered.

Well its not like I am saying Zeref is done with this attack either, he never went his red eye mode but people are complaining about stuff like powerscaling when 2 arcs before we saw wendy harming a dragon where mages like jura and makarov were useless.Same can be said for END, he might possess curse to kill zeref while being weaker than those who are not able to kill zeref.Mard geer devised memento mori to kill zeref but it was countered by des magic.

Noting stops him from getting engaged in battle with Acnologia or Igneel. That's not how his curse works. He simply wouldn't die even if he makes an attempt to kill himself. I mean his curse doesn't stop him from making attempts, it simply makes his attempt useless. Mavis restrained herself from eating for like half an year yet she didn't die. Moreover if his curse stops him from making attempts then he shouldn't be able to create demons or END in the first place. He didn't even tried to resist Natsu when he's about to land final blow which again proves your point wrong.Moreover, what you said doesn't satisfy the statement "Only Natsu can kill me"" form Zeref. If there are people other than END that can kill him, he wouldn't bother creating an entire entity for sole purpose of killing himself.

How came Igneel knows Natsu is END again? It was explicitly stated in manga that Natsu was revived as END.Besides, Atlas flame clearly said Igneel was unable to destroy END. Then we have Zeref who reminded Natsu that Igneel could't kill END while hyping him. If Igneel simply let him live because of his feelings towards Natsu then Zeref wouldn't have bought it into the equation.That aside Igneel separated END from Natsu so he can kill END even without killing Natsu but he ended up sealing him which again supports the point of him being unable to kill him. Why would be fear the revival of END if he could just kill him again? It doesn't even make any sense.

Igneel felt like juts him talking back to him alone is an accomplishment so The very fact that Acnologia went as far as showing his original self to Zeref is all it takes to say that he treats him like an equal. Throughout their whole conversation Acnologia never talked as if he's Zeref's superior when he did it in case of Igneel. Acnologia accepted him as an enemy but at the same time he looked down on Igneel and announced that he'd destroy Igneel and even mocked him for being weak despite being king of flame dragons. He didn't even mock Zeref or said anything back at Zeref when Zeref announced that he'd destroy him on his face. Do you think Igneel can do the same and get away without getting attacked by Acnologia? Zeref said that Acnologia's still waiting for someone that makes him fight with everything he has got implying that he wasn't fighting with everything he has got with Igneel which in turn implies that Acnologia was holding back against Igneel. LOl, That was Zeref when he was not being himself. Look at him while talking to Acnologia, Do you see any sings of fear in that guy?

 

[BrillyMac]

Why is anyone assuming zeref is dead? Or even injured? The chapter ended with natsus attack. Also if he was dead he wouldn't be having a flashback right now

 

[milkydean]

Noting stops him from getting engaged in battle with Acnologia or Igneel. That's not how his curse works. He simply wouldn't die even if he makes an attempt to kill himself. I mean his curse doesn't stop him from making attempts, it simply makes his attempt useless. Mavis restrained herself from eating for like half an year yet she didn't die. Moreover if his curse stops him from making attempts then he shouldn't be able to create demons or END in the first place. He didn't even tried to resist Natsu when he's about to land final blow which again proves your point wrong.Moreover, what you said doesn't satisfy the statement "Only Natsu can kill me"" form Zeref. If there are people other than END that can kill him, he wouldn't bother creating an entire entity for sole purpose of killing himself.

How came Igneel knows Natsu is END again? It was explicitly stated in manga that Natsu was revived as END.Besides, Atlas flame clearly said Igneel was unable to destroy END. Then we have Zeref who reminded Natsu that Igneel could't kill END while hyping him. If Igneel simply let him live because of his feelings towards Natsu then Zeref wouldn't have bought it into the equation.That aside Igneel separated END from Natsu so he can kill END even without killing Natsu but he ended up sealing him which again supports the point of him being unable to kill him. Why would be fear the revival of END if he could just kill him again? It doesn't even make any sense.

Igneel felt like juts him talking back to him alone is an accomplishment so The very fact that Acnologia went as far as showing his original self to Zeref is all it takes to say that he treats him like an equal. Throughout their whole conversation Acnologia never talked as if he's Zeref's superior when he did it in case of Igneel. Acnologia accepted him as an enemy but at the same time he looked down on Igneel and announced that he'd destroy Igneel and even mocked him for being weak despite being king of flame dragons. He didn't even mock Zeref or said anything back at Zeref when Zeref announced that he'd destroy him on his face. Do you think Igneel can do the same and get away without getting attacked by Acnologia? Zeref said that Acnologia's still waiting for someone that makes him fight with everything he has got implying that he wasn't fighting with everything he has got with Igneel which in turn implies that Acnologia was holding back against Igneel. LOl, That was Zeref when he was not being himself. Look at him while talking to Acnologia, Do you see any sings of fear in that guy?

Have you not read what I wrote?I said that just bcoz END can kill zeref doesnt make him stronger, or just bcoz Zeref cannot be killed does not make him stronger than igneel and acno.Mard had the curse that could have killed Zeref yet it was stopped by des magic the natural counter to curses.Does that make gray stronger than mard?No.Who said Igneel sealed END?Where was it stated?Or anything like Igneel separated END and natsu and tried to destroy it?You?Bcoz I dont remember it being stated in manga.
Lol you think just bcoz acno showed his human form to zeref means he treats Zeref his equal or zeref is his equal?No, dragon form >>>human form.Thats been stated in manga that ds become dragons and thats their final stage.The very fact that he didnt bother using his dragon form against zeref shows that he doesnt see zeref as a threat.Also the fact that Zeref is now feeling so confident against acno after Igneel ripped his arm proves my point more.He shat his pants before when he saw acno.Now acno has a ripped arm, plus is in his human form. Also Zeref built an entire empire to take on acno. Get over it already
Acno>>>Zeref and so is Igneel

 

[Wizard_Impressive]

Freaking dope ass chapter loved the fact the power up was nothing fancy it was just a shitload of magic power and hotter flames
Knew Lucy's mom was involved with zeref somehow

 

[saw2097]

If the next chapter goes into flashbacks than maybe Natsu will learn about his and Zeref's history finally.

Wonder how he will take it when he learns he is over 400 years old?

 

[A v i]

Have you not read what I wrote?I said that just bcoz END can kill zeref doesnt make him stronger, or just bcoz Zeref cannot be killed does not make him stronger than igneel and acno.Mard had the curse that could have killed Zeref yet it was stopped by des magic the natural counter to curses.Does that make gray stronger than mard?No.Who said Igneel sealed END?Where was it stated?Or anything like Igneel separated END and natsu and tried to destroy it?You?Bcoz I dont remember it being stated in manga.
Lol you think just bcoz acno showed his human form to zeref means he treats Zeref his equal or zeref is his equal?No, dragon form >>>human form.Thats been stated in manga that ds become dragons and thats their final stage.The very fact that he didnt bother using his dragon form against zeref shows that he doesnt see zeref as a threat.Also the fact that Zeref is now feeling so confident against acno after Igneel ripped his arm proves my point more.He shat his pants before when he saw acno.Now acno has a ripped arm, plus is in his human form. Also Zeref built an entire empire to take on acno. Get over it already
Acno>>>Zeref and so is Igneel

You have to at least be stronger than someone in order to be able to kill him fair and square; especially, when he's an immortal, you have no chance of killing him with your own capabilities without being stronger than him. And if you go back and read my posts I've never said that Zeref is stronger than Igneel because he can't be killed by him. All I did was to imply that Igneel's power should be able to kill Zeref when END who's portrayed to be Igneel superior can't accomplish the same. Then I went ahead and reminded you that Zeref received better treatment from Acnologia who doesn't normally bother by even talking back as he treats almost everyone as nothing more than an insects.

He acknowledged Igneel and talked back because he was an opponent wroth of a little respect as he's fairly strong.That shows that it takes an over power being such as Igneel just to make him talk back. However, Zeref received far better treatment than Igneel as Zeref not only agreed to meet him in person; he went as far as revealing his true self before Zeref which proves that he actually holds some respect for the dude which is exclusive for strong individuals.The man who does nothing but destroying others actually had a full fledged conversation with Zeref and even said that Zeref is same as himself. Hell if it was someone other than Zeref, he'd have destroyed him the very movement he said that he shall obliterate him. Zeref knows how strong Acnologia is and he had no one to help him even if Acnologia were to attack him on spot yet he has enough nerve to make such an outrageous claim on his face which again isn't something even Igneel could do and come out without a scratch.

Mard Geer thought his attack could kill Zeref but that doesn't mean that it'd actually work on him. And it wasn't Grays power but Silvers power. Gray uses demon slayer magic which is specifically designed to counter demons so it's only natural for it to be able to counter it. END or any demon for that matter wasn't created in such a way that their powers only effects Zeref so you can't use natural weakness argument with END and Zeref when nothing like Zeref being weak against END was mentioned or implied in manga.

Who tried to stop END? How came Igneel knows Natsu's relation with END when even his own follower Mard Geer doesn't know a thing? And Who raised Natsu ever since he was a kid again? Who's strong enough to seal him off when even Igneel couldn't stop him? The writer doesn't have to spoon feed us with every little detail. By jointing all of aforementioned hints together, one can conclude that it's more than obvious at this point that Igneel's responsible for END being sealed. It's not something that needs to be explicitly stated.Zeref is the only one that understand better than anyone how strong Acnologia is as he was the only one who knows that Acnologia would destroy every one including Igneel unless a miracle happens back during Tartaros arc when Igneel himself admits that Acnologia is stronger than what he expected. You can only determine ones strength as accurately only when you're of similar level caliber or closer to being on that level.

Zeref can be weaker than both Acnologia and Igneel for all I care. I know that Zeref's not going to be the main antagonist of the series the very movement that I learned that he has some king of connection with Natsu.It was almost conformed when Acnologia killed Igneel and it was fully conformed when Zeref revealed that he's Natsu's older brother so Acnologia should be stronger than Zeref as he's more of an antagonist of the series than Zeref. But from what we have seen he's not far beneath Igneel or even Acnologia if at all. That's what I've been trying to say. I don't care even if he's weaker than them. If I were to choose I always wanted Igneel to be the strongest.