Explaining Prime Hiruzen without labeling it as a retcon

[Inert Brian]

Warning: I know people are going to re-use the same 1000 Hiruzen jokes because they have horrible comedic taste (except Vega who actually made it funny). But we all know SM Hashi negs Hiruzen, low is just being generous. So if you want to be another Carlos Mencia, have at it.​

Part 1: Credentials.

As we know, Iruka is the one that stated Hiruzen was revered as the strongest Hokage of all time. But considering Iruka's status as a ninja and who he would personally know, whoever he heard that from probably had hardly any idea what Hashi was capable of.

There's a point in the war when Edo Madara and Edo Hashi are fighting, and the SA is amazed at what the two can do. If everyone knew what Hashi could do....then the one Leaf ninja would not have said "so this is how our ancestors used to battle".

Part 2: Lack of knowledge on Hashirama.
This ties in with the SA being shocked about what Hashi could do. Who came to watch Hashirama vs Madara except Black Zetsu? When would Hashirama ever have to use techs like Buddha against anyone that's not Madara? The others in their era were bugs compared to Hashi and Madz.

Part 3: Why people put Hiruzen above the others.

If we accept that Iruka's statement is universally what most people believe, then that means Hiruzen was considered the best because of his versatility.

If you're confused by what I mean, Iruka states Hiruzen was revered as the strongest Hokage and then follows up by noting he mastered all Leaf jutsu.

Logically it would make sense. People knew Hashirama could use wood style. Fire+Wind > Wood. People didn't know about the Buddha or Wood dragon or Sage Mode.

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Minato was not Hokage long enough to truly be evaluated for, so public perception leaves it at Minato just being gifted at a young age.




I know it was most likely a retcon because it was before he had the entire story established...But when part of a story is just a retcon, and can't be looked at logically...then it just degrades the overall story :l

"And that's all I've got to say about that".

-Forest Gump

 

[BlacLord™]

He was very skilled compared to the average shinobi.

And he was intelligent too, but it's not enough to even compare with the top tier overall.

 

[Joker]

Nope, it was just a retcon, plain and simple.

 

[Retsu]

great thread, would actually read it again.

 

[Inert Brian]

great thread, would actually read it again.

I'm sure you would.

 

[AlphaScythian]

He was said to be strongest then all previous hokages - died from fodder level edos of hashi and tobirama.
He was said to know all konoha jutsus - spams shurikens.
He was said to master 1000 genjutsus - shown none.
He was said to be strongest of his time. Ohnoki, 3rd kazekage, 3rd raikage, Muu, ohnoki, trollkage, would likely beat him.
His feat simply dont live up

Retcon it is.

 

[Inert Brian]

He was said to be strongest then all previous hokages - died from fodder level edos of hashi and tobirama.
He was said to know all konoha jutsus - spams shurikens.
He was said to master 1000 genjutsus - shown none.
He was said to be strongest of his time. Ohnoki, 3rd kazekage, 3rd raikage, Muu, ohnoki, trollkage, would likely beat him.
His feat simply dont live up

Retcon it is.

-First point is wrong. He died because of Orochimaru. You have to seal Orochimaru to beat him since he is nearly immortal.
-Agree with the second point. Similar to Kakashi honestly.
-DB gives him 5, but I haven't seen any.
-Disagree, He was out-performing the 5 kage against the Buddha.

 

[Alfred Pennyworth]

sounds reasonable . if villagers only have general knowledge on previous hokages(wood / water style) they would naturally think that hiruzen with his 5 elements and versatile jutsus can counter all other hokage's jutsus.

But I doubt the villagers would fail to acknowledge minato's true strength, which he could've displayed in the previous ninja wars . they probably think hiruzen knows FTG too, that's why he's thought to be stronger than minato

 

[Inert Brian]

sounds reasonable . if villagers only have general knowledge on previous hokages(wood / water style) they would naturally think that hiruzen with his 5 elements and versatile jutsus can counter all other hokage's jutsus.

But I doubt the villagers would fail to acknowledge minato's true strength, which he could've displayed in the previous ninja wars . they probably think hiruzen knows FTG too, that's why he's thought to be stronger than minato

Good point on Minato. But it definitely is likely because Hiruzen was skilled in all 3 areas of combat. Like, when has Minato used Genjutsu?

 

[Exaar]

First off, Iruka's status is completely irreverent and so is his lack of knowledge. You don't need to have a high ranking or knowledge of pervious kage to simply state what people in the past called Hiruzen.

Secondly, The person who said "So this is how our ancestors used to fight" looked pretty young and came quite some time after Hiruzen's generation.
It was People in Hashirama/Tobirama/Hiruzen's generation who hailed him as the strongest and as a God of shinobi. People of Hiruzen's generation would've of know of both Hashirama and Tobirama.

 

[Alfred Pennyworth]

Good point on Minato. But it definitely is likely because Hiruzen was skilled in all 3 areas of combat. Like, when has Minato used Genjutsu?

that's most likely the case , although I remember that neither of them has actually shown any genjutsu feats (hiruzen has the hype).

 

[AlphaScythian]

-First point is wrong. He died because of Orochimaru. You have to seal Orochimaru to beat him since he is nearly immortal.
-Agree with the second point. Similar to Kakashi honestly.
-DB gives him 5, but I haven't seen any.
-Disagree, He was out-performing the 5 kage against the Buddha.

Outperforming kages? kages were worn out already, he's edo, karin outperformed both.

 

[kimb]

I wish Kishimoto was a better mangaka, so idiots don't have hope to try and confirm retcons.

 

[Demonic.]

That's exactly what I told BigThird and he took it personal :| nevertheless good thread

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Its not retcon.Just because a character says something,deosn't mean its fact.Kakashi said the Rinnegan is a mutation and the Sage is just a myth.That wasn't a fact.Tobi said thw Kyuubi attack was just a natural disater,that wasn't a fact.Multiple characters said Tobi is Madara,that wasn't a fact.

I wish Kishimoto was a better mangaka, so idiots don't have hope to try and confirm retcons.

It's not Kishimoto's fault.It's the readers who believe everything a character says is true.

He was said to be strongest then all previous hokages - died from fodder level edos of hashi and tobirama.
He was said to know all konoha jutsus - spams shurikens.
He was said to master 1000 genjutsus - shown none.
He was said to be strongest of his time. Ohnoki, 3rd kazekage, 3rd raikage, Muu, ohnoki, trollkage, would likely beat him.
His feat simply dont live up

Retcon it is.

It was said he knows all existing jutsu in the Land Of Fire.It was never said he knew 1000 Genjutsu.

 

[YellowFang]

IMO this topic doesn't need a thread...

He was the longest reigning Hokage, during his time Konoha won SWWs [even though Minato soloed on of'em]...
The level of Shinobi in that era was so average that Hiruzen seemed like a God when he'd use 5 ninjutsu in a row...

Unlike others, he was a bit political too that's why w/o much military power, Konoha was the strongest because Hiruzen would most likely settle many feuds with just talks and people living in the shinobi world would believe that others must be scared of our supernatural Hokage when he wasn't...


I usually get biased over Hiruzen talks because he's one of those over-hyped people that never got to prove even the glimpse of their hype...

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

lol a 26976346th thread about this topic. very constructive

lets be real... obvious retcon is obvious
Hashi was introduced as inferior to Hiruzen, and he stayed inferior until the minute Madara needed a rival
then Kishi took one of the theories from the net and made it canon
if you don't label this as a "retcon" then you clearly don't know that it means

 

[Exaar]

It was said he knows all existing jutsu in the Land Of Fire.It was never said he knew 1000 Genjutsu.

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[Naruto X Hunter]

lol a 26976346th thread about this topic. very constructive

lets be real... obvious retcon is obvious
Hashi was introduced as inferior to Hiruzen, and he stayed inferior until the minute Madara needed a rival
then Kishi took one of the theories from the net and made it canon
if you don't label this as a "retcon" then you clearly don't know that it means

So just cause a character said he was the strongest that means it has to be true?

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Would have been better if it was an actual full page.To he honest i think he may have been referring to Illusions as all Jutsu in general.But i'll give you rep anyway.

 

[Souji]

I think Hiruzen is stronger than Tobirama