Exiguity.

[-Logic-]

Introduction:

The purpose of this thread is centralized specifically on clearing up the popular misconception that Sasuke actually has access to Tsukuyomi. I'll attempt to disprove this notion through various statements in the Manga, and general logic and deduction. Majority of the proof stems from

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's work, and as such, I thank him and acknowledge him for this. Duly note that the Sasuke I speak of is MS Sasuke.

Groundwork:

Majority of people tend to think that Tsukuyomi is a prerequisite of Susano'o due what Itachi stated about Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi, in their final battle. [

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] What we must realize and attempt to understand is that Itachi is simply stating that along with his Susano'o, he unlocked two Mangekyō techniques: Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Nothing more, in fact, nowhere does Itachi distinctively state that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are the definite prerequisites for Susano'o. Even so, people tend to think that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi...allow me to elaborate on this: despite what Itachi said, Sasuke has never referred to any of the Genjutsu he has used explicitly as 'Tsukuyomi'...thus hinting that Sasuke doesn't really possess it. Furthermore, regardless of what has been firmly stated in the past; Itachi's strong claim has seemingly been retconned by Kishi-Sensei through Madara. [

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] Madara is strongly implying that in order to awaken the Sharingan's true power both Sharingan eyes are a requirement. Does this ring a bell? Susano'o requires both Mangekyōs to be used, hence both Sharingan eyes are a requirement, and not that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are the definite requirements...In other words, what Itachi said is probably false. If you're still confused; when Madara stated what he did, he was hinting at Susano'o...Therefore, his statement perhaps indicates that the notion that both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are definite prerequisites for Susano'o are false; as he simply states that both eyes are required. [

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Determinant:

Despite the fact the belief that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi mainly stems from what Itachi said; some of it stems from Sasuke's battle with Danzō and Kirābī. Despite popular beliefs; Sasuke used a mere Sharingan Genjutsu on Danzō. Not Tsukuyomi. This is clearly evident as Danzō states that Sasuke's Genjutsu prowess is clearly inferior to Itachi's. Not the prowess of his Tsukuyomi. [

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] Obito even attested to this by stating it was merely a weak Genjutsu; and not Tsukuyomi. [

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] One thing I noticed in people's reasoning that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi is the fact that he used his basic Genjutsu with his Mangekyō Sharingan active; quite frankly, this is completely and utterly fallacious. For Itachi has used Susano'o with his base Sharingan... [

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]

What's more, is that against Kirābī Sasuke simply used a basic binding Genjutsu. [

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] This is further emphasized through the way in which Kirābī simply fell down in his battle against Sasuke...[

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]

Notes:

I, along with Varrah, theorize that Sasuke gained access to Tsukuyomi via the transplantation of Itachi's eyes. This can be emphasized through Sasuke's words..."I can feel Itachi's power flowing into me"; it's possible that Sasuke is referring to Tsukuyomi. Notice where Sasuke's hand is pointing also...to his eyes; hinting Itachi's power is now within him. [

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Summary:

Despite popular belief, Sasuke (MS) lacks Tsukuyomi. However, this exiguity is appropriated via the transplantation of Itachi's eyes...

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[Varrah]

All of you who are interested enough should examine The Power Of Darkness [

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], it’s explicitly said. Sasuke's left eye creates the black flames through Amaterasu, and his right eye allows him to exert greater control over those black flames, which is identified as Enton: Kagutsuchi earlier on in the chapter. Those are the two ocular powers confirmed to be under Sasuke's possession until he identifies the third, Susano’o, at the tail end of the chapter.

The black flames themselves are the "Enton", Amaterasu is the ocular power that allows this Seishitsu Henka. While Amaterasu's flames have been described as the pinnacle of Katon, Sasuke has dubbed it Enton.

Enton: Kagutsuchi, named after the Shinto God of Fire, is the ocular power of Sasuke's right eye that grants him free reign over those black flames—shaping them around objects, into fireballs, miniature Magatama, spiked protrusions, arrows 'n blades for his Susano’o to wield... And even quenching them. (and the people who fail to see this, will be unhappily stomped repeatedly)​

Edit: I actually liked the post, but it says dislike?​

 

[Valen]

Nice layout

 

[-Logic-]

All of you who are interested enough should examine The Power Of Darkness [

You must be registered for see links

], it’s explicitly said. Sasuke's left eye creates the black flames through Amaterasu, and his right eye allows him to exert greater control over those black flames, which is identified as Enton: Kagutsuchi earlier on in the chapter. Those are the two ocular powers confirmed to be under Sasuke's possession until he identifies the third, Susano’o, at the tail end of the chapter.

The black flames themselves are the "Enton", Amaterasu is the ocular power that allows this Seishitsu Henka. While Amaterasu's flames have been described as the pinnacle of Katon, Sasuke has dubbed it Enton.

Enton: Kagutsuchi, named after the Shinto God of Fire, is the ocular power of Sasuke's right eye that grants him free reign over those black flames—shaping them around objects, into fireballs, miniature Magatama, spiked protrusions, arrows 'n blades for his Susano’o to wield... And even quenching them. (and the people who fail to see this, will be unhappily stomped repeatedly)​

Dat reply...

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Nice layout

Thank you; it was inspired by Varrah.

 

[Amaterasuice]

It said it takes Tsukyomi+Amaterasu in the databook. :/

Plus, Sasuke paralized people with his Tsukyomi before ems. Danzo said his Tsukyomi is weaker than Itachi's.

 

[Kettei]

It said it takes Tsukyomi+Amaterasu in the databook. :/

Plus, Sasuke paralized people with his Tsukyomi before ems. Danzo said his Tsukyomi is weaker than Itachi's.

I have to agree with this.

 

[-Logic-]

It said it takes Tsukyomi+Amaterasu in the databook. :/

Plus, Sasuke paralized people with his Tsukyomi before ems. Danzo said his Tsukyomi is weaker than Itachi's.

The databook also states that Itachi is invincible via Zetsu. It's not as reliable as you think.

Can you provide some examples?

 

[Temporary Account]

How does the word "exiguity" have any relevance to this thread?

 

[-Logic-]

How does the word "exiguity" have any relevance to this thread?

Good question...

exiguity
Web definitions
meagerness: the quality of being meager;

Meager is defined as the lack of something; in this case, the lack of Tsukuyomi.

 

[-Logic-]

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All Danzō states is that the Genjutsu Sasuke used is inferior to Itachi's; surely this would imply and increase the chances that Sasuke used a generic basic Sharingan Genjutsu rather than Tsukuyomi? Also, note that Danzō doesn't say: "Your Tsukuyomi is nothing compared to Itachi's"...

 

[yellowxflash]

The title is obnoxious

 

[-Logic-]

The title is obnoxious

I'm sorry... xd

 

[Varrah]

Danzōu: ​

The Mangekyou Sharingan is active, lesser Genjutsu can still be employed (with the possibility of being enhanced, due to being cast from the superior Doujutsu), just as we saw when Itachi detailed Madara's history to Sasuke.

Neither of these are Tsukuyomi. [

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] [

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] [

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Genjutsu has been used to suddenly confine movements, calm targets to sleep, or leave them comatose with potent mental shocks. Usually, these kinds of Genjutsu—provided the recipients are capable enough—can be counterattacked, or even dispersed with Genjutsu Kai, and their addressees can function normally soon afterwards.

Not the case with Tsukuyomi, and it does more than just bind, or knock folks out.

Genjutsu usually require real time hours—days worth of mental stimulating to shatter an individual's mental fortitude. Tsukuyomi takes all that time, and compresses it to a real time, minuscule moment; it is capable of instantly inflicting lasting mental damage that is substantial enough for it's victims to eventually end up comatose. That's why it's been called the strongest Genjutsu, and why it can only be dispelled by a skilled, true Sharingan successor.

It's practical to suspect that there could be differences between Tsukuyomi cast from different Mangekyou Sharingan users, depending on how their skill with, and knowledge of Genjutsu compares. But, that doesn't mean that Tsukuyomi can completely lack the ability to alter a victim's sense of time, and still be called "Tsukuyomi"; we have never been given such an impression. This would be the equivalent of identifying any type of emission of spiraling chakra from an individual's palm, without any added power, or spherical compression, as a Rasengan.

It would make a great deal more sense if these distinctions were made apparent by the amount of time that could be compressed, rather than claiming that—contrary to what we've been told about Tsukuyomi—any Genjutsu cast from the Mangekyou Sharingan can be classified as Tsukuyomi without the ability to compress time entirely.
​

 

[-Logic-]

Danzōu ​

The Mangekyou Sharingan is active, lesser Genjutsu can still be employed (with the possibility of being enhanced, due to being cast from the superior Doujutsu), just as we saw when Itachi detailed Madara's history to Sasuke.

Neither of these are Tsukuyomi. [

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

]

Genjutsu has been used to suddenly confine movements, calm targets to sleep, or leave them comatose with potent mental shocks. Usually, these kinds of Genjutsu—provided the recipients are capable enough—can be counterattacked, or even dispersed with Genjutsu Kai, and their addressees can function normally soon afterwards.

Not the case with Tsukuyomi, and it does more than just bind, or knock folks out.

Genjutsu usually require real time hours—days worth of mental stimulating to shatter an individual's mental fortitude. Tsukuyomi takes all that time, and compresses it to a real time, minuscule moment; it is capable of instantly inflicting lasting mental damage that is substantial enough for it's victims to eventually end up comatose. That's why it's been called the strongest Genjutsu, and why it can only be dispelled by a skilled, true Sharingan successor.

It's practical to suspect that there could be differences between Tsukuyomi cast from different Mangekyou Sharingan users, depending on how their skill with, and knowledge of Genjutsu compares. But, that doesn't mean that Tsukuyomi can completely lack the ability to alter a victim's sense of time, and still be called "Tsukuyomi"; we have never been given such an impression. This would be the equivalent of identifying any type of emission of spiraling chakra from an individual's palm, without any added power, or spherical compression, as a Rasengan.

It would make a great deal more sense if these distinctions were made apparent by the amount of time that could be compressed, rather than claiming that—contrary to what we've been told about Tsukuyomi—any Genjutsu cast from the Mangekyou Sharingan can be classified as Tsukuyomi without the ability to compress time entirely.
​

...You weren't lying when you said you'd slew those who go against this idea, were you?

 

[Amaterasuice]

@Varrah

It depends on the skill of the technique.

Sasuke isn't as good as Itachi with genjutsu and wasn't as experienced with it himself.

The time he used it on Danzo was like the first time he used it. It would make sense for it not to be as good as Itachi's. Danzo could break out of it because Sasuke didn't know how to use it properly, plus danzo senju dna and tons of sharingan.

The whole prospect of Tsukuyomi is to actually inflict damage in a illusion. Itachi's version is just able to alter the time within its self.

So Itachi has better control with it, but it doesn't mean Sasuke doesn't have it.

Very much like how Sasuke can control Amaterasu better than Itachi.

 

[SageoftheoneWay]

All Danzō states is that the Genjutsu Sasuke used is inferior to Itachi's; surely this would imply and increase the chances that Sasuke used a generic basic Sharingan Genjutsu rather than Tsukuyomi? Also, note that Danzō doesn't say: "Your Tsukuyomi is nothing compared to Itachi's"...

Even though that could be implied, Danzo was not speaking merely of general genjutsu, but of Tsukoyomi, namely Itachi's.

Also, I don't find your groundwork compelling under the basis that you're only disproving that Tsukoyomi and Amarerasu are prerequisites to Susano'O. However, you make no mention that the MS could inherently possess all three powers, or contain the potential to produce these powers.

Therefore, i'm not too convinced about this, but if you covered all the bases then this theory would follow logic, as your username is.

Also, im only being critical because I have a feeling you are open to it, and would be willing to discuss the issue in your defense.

In my defense, I believe anyone who achieves the MS alone has the potential to learn Tsukoyomi. Obviously there are differences in strength when it comes to MS genjutsu, as implied by Danzo, but this does not mean that Sasuke had no such potential. Just like any Uchiha with MS can use Izanami, Izanagi, Amaterasu, and Susano'O. To further prove my claim, both Obito and Madara claimed the ability to activite infinite Tsukoyomi, therefore even an Uchiha who has not displayed Susano'O claims to be able to use Tsukiyomi.

I personally think it just takes training with the eyes is all thats necessary to accomplish these feats because somehow the sharingan and other Doujutsu seem to inherently come with their powers for whatever reason, and Tsukiyomi is one of those abilities that comes with MS.

Also, as stated in the manga various times, some ninjas are just more prone to genjutsu than others, therefore it follows, under my premises, that some (Sasuke) are not as apt for genjutsu as others (Itachi, Madara, Obito, etc..). Not at all to say that the Technique does not still remain with the eye.

 

[iSpeak the Truth]

Enton: Kagutsuchi, named after the Shinto God of Fire, is the ocular power of Sasuke's right eye that grants him free reign over those black flames—shaping them around objects, into fireballs, miniature Magatama, spiked protrusions, arrows 'n blades for his Susano’o to wield... And even quenching them. (and the people who fail to see this, will be unhappily stomped repeatedly)[/FONT][/INDENT]

I don't understand why people are unable to comprehend that^ I've been saying it for ages.

Danzōu: ​

The Mangekyou Sharingan is active, lesser Genjutsu can still be employed (with the possibility of being enhanced, due to being cast from the superior Doujutsu), just as we saw when Itachi detailed Madara's history to Sasuke.

Neither of these are Tsukuyomi. [

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

]

Genjutsu has been used to suddenly confine movements, calm targets to sleep, or leave them comatose with potent mental shocks. Usually, these kinds of Genjutsu—provided the recipients are capable enough—can be counterattacked, or even dispersed with Genjutsu Kai, and their addressees can function normally soon afterwards.

Not the case with Tsukuyomi, and it does more than just bind, or knock folks out.

Genjutsu usually require real time hours—days worth of mental stimulating to shatter an individual's mental fortitude. Tsukuyomi takes all that time, and compresses it to a real time, minuscule moment; it is capable of instantly inflicting lasting mental damage that is substantial enough for it's victims to eventually end up comatose. That's why it's been called the strongest Genjutsu, and why it can only be dispelled by a skilled, true Sharingan successor.

It's practical to suspect that there could be differences between Tsukuyomi cast from different Mangekyou Sharingan users, depending on how their skill with, and knowledge of Genjutsu compares. But, that doesn't mean that Tsukuyomi can completely lack the ability to alter a victim's sense of time, and still be called "Tsukuyomi"; we have never been given such an impression. This would be the equivalent of identifying any type of emission of spiraling chakra from an individual's palm, without any added power, or spherical compression, as a Rasengan.

It would make a great deal more sense if these distinctions were made apparent by the amount of time that could be compressed, rather than claiming that—contrary to what we've been told about Tsukuyomi—any Genjutsu cast from the Mangekyou Sharingan can be classified as Tsukuyomi without the ability to compress time entirely.
​

if this^ doesn't cure all the misconceptions in people's minds, nothing ever will! Unless Kishimoto or Sasuke themselves address the forum and say THEY DON'T HAVE TSUKUYOMI!

 

[Microsword57]

While this has nothing to do with the thread I would like to know what font you do use? I would like to use it as it shows a more online textbook resemblance.

 

[iSpeak the Truth]

Logic and Varrah, you guys did an excellent job! Sadly...it's doubtful whether people will even understand or even acknowledge the points made by both of you.

See...the root of this misconception is the Databook page on Susanoo. Unless Kishimoto releases another Databook disapproving that, people will never listen to reason and always stick that same page in your face. Even though, the Databook has been proven as a basis for Kishimoto to make people believe what HE wants them to believe so he can surprise them later on in the manga. For example: Tobi = Madara in the Databook, just another hoax created by Kishimoto to surprise his fans.

And this phenomenon isn't even like that, the manga has already proven that Susanoo page false and this thread explains that it has, but no one sees that, except for a few logical people like us who can read between the lines.

 

[iSpeak the Truth]

This is a fantastic thread, -Logic-. Props to Varrah, as well. I told you that great minds think alike. Logical points, as well as an impressive amount of effort. Be prepared, however. The thread I'm making is a theory of how Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu is a requirement of Susano'o. Should be a good read.

But they aren't......so why are you making one?