Establishment Regarding Naruto and Sasuke vs Madara

Holy God · Jan 26, 2015

-Xlad- said:
Okay, so I was requested by a few members to post this match up (NS vs Madara). The usual consensus is that JJ Madara can stomp them individually, let alone as a team. I myself actually think this whole Madara wank is ridiculous.

In this case, I will properly address otherwise. Basically, why Naruto and Sasuke's abilities argubly surpass Madara's own. Or at least, debunking the whole wank of him getting an easy victory, when it isn't a stomp like its made out to be.

First, Madara asserted that with both powers plus immortality he can defeat them. However, he also noted that they both are not the same as they were before. Not even taking into account that they didn't use everything against him.
[
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]->[
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]

Now down to the establishments.

Naruto:

Truth Seeker Orbs are countered by
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and
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. Naruto also has shown instances that he is skilled with shape manipulation. [
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][
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]

He has superior shape manipulation due to two mechanics being used together for TBBRS. Hiruzen compared
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. Rasengan by itself was already considered the
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. By him combining Rasenshuriken's principles with his orbs, he created a
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opposed what Juubito and Juudara has displayed. No way TSO are helping Madara.

Tailed Beast Bombs are another deadly attacks that Juubi Jins can create. Madara can possibly summon
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. Shinnju in its final form has only shown this, since its no longer a raging beast that fires through the mouth.

Naruto immediately use either FRS variants to destroy them.[
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][
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][
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] A regular Rasenshuriken sliced
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. By scaling, they are around the same size and height range as the TBB tree. He also can use
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to make a quicker finish. With these, he cuts down the trees quick enough to halt TBBs charging; thus rendering them useless.

If Juudara used
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which he likely will, Naruto can:
- Flying to one end and extend Chakra Arms to tear down the barrier like Juubito.[
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][
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]
- Blasting through the barrier with a very large bomb.[
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]
It was needed so all of the intended target can be caught or else they become more avoidable. Even then, it doesn't mean much if those Tree Cannons can be erased.

Chibaku Tensei is Madara's most powerful Rinnegan Tech. As a Juubi Jin, he created multiple CTs meteors. Each of them is larger than Nagato's and there are obviously more of them. This was canonically countered by six Chou Odama TBBRS.[
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]-[
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]

An overlooked detail is that
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for CT to end. The only reason why Naruto destroyed all of them was his teammates. They were at risk for collateral damage, so all of it had to be vaporized. Another one is that TBBRS themselves
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. Naruto is not limited to nine TBBRS. Even then, they can be
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.

Preta Path is a no go. It can not be used while casting Ninjutsu at the same time. It contradicts with
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, which is the exact opposite of casting jutsu. If Madara use this path, he cannot use other techs along with it. Another weakness is how much can the technique absorb in one succession. Edo Madara
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before he absorbed it. Juudara himself did not absorb Naruto's LRS and instead resorted to Limbo. So using this to absorb his techniques is a bunk.

Limbo is not contributing to anything. Four Shadow clones individually
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. Through this, each summons three more to give each Limbo a Uzumaki Combo. They also have faster reflexes and speed than Juudara.[
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][
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][
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][
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] Not only did Limbo only matched Shadow Clones in combat, nothing ever suggested that they can do anything other than that.

Animal Path doesn't need much explaining based on this. [
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] This path doesn't get more powerful from being a Jin due to its function of sending out summons, which aren't being powered up.

Yasaka Magatamas were already countered by V1 Tails.[
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]

Susanoo gets taken down with Chakra Avatar. It was more than capable of combating PS without kill intention.[
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]-[
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]-[
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] It doesn't help that his
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, who pushed Perfect Susanoo with those. Even at low chakra, he created four Shadow Clones, who
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, which is far above PS.

Fire Style isn't doing anything to him; not one bit.[
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]

Wood Style is absolutely doing nothing to Naruto. Especially giving he can have
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to:
- Fly and bombard with Rasenshurikens giving that a
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destroyed Jukai Kotan in this manner.
- Wood Dragons will be more of a nuisance to him than a threat since it has to be in
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. Even then, he
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.

Destructive and quick hit attacks is a good response for Mokuton. They are only durable based on thickness and are only most effective on the ground. Three or more clones fly above Mokuton Giants,
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, and bombard them with Continuous TBB. It's a very damaging move and can be charged quickly.[
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]-[
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]

Or just use COTBBRS to send everything into kingdom come.

Sasuke:

Truth Seeker Orbs are countered by either
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or
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. It is shown that they will force into detonation if a technique has enough force to do so. Not only this, we saw throughout VOTE clash, Naruto has almost never used his Orbs. Meaning that it was useless to do so.

If he himself has never used it, then there's no way Madara can do the same. There is also the fact that they can be damaged just from these attacks.[
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][
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] Sasuke's arsenal overall are tiers above it. Or he can
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between an orb and himself to reach him.

Tailed Beast Balls as mentioned before are very deadly attacks. If multiple trees are summoned, Sasuke use
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or
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to cut them down. Since this is a VOTE Sasuke, these attacks are tiers more powerful than EMS.

Perfect Susanoo also can be summoned immediately and make quick work since:
- One slash
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; Sasuke's PS sliced a
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.
- Those mountains and meteors are tiers enormous to the tree summoned.

Since Madara would use Red Yang Barrier, he can fly quickly and slash them from afar. Even then, the barrier doesn't help if the TBB trees can be destroyed.

As for Chibaku Tensei, this would basically function a trump card for Rinnegan. If these were used against Sasuke, he makes his own
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. Enough to
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and cause a collison. Rendering them useless.

Sasuke only created CTs of those size since large ones weren't needed to trap Tailed Beasts inside. This is indicated that unlike Madara, he actually used targets as cores for the meteors. Making it superior to what he did. Even then,
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and smack him before even given a chance of using it.

Preta Path isn't doing anything. Again, Madara can't cast Ninjutsu and use this path simultaneuosly. There is also PS slashes being physical attacks, which can not be absorb. He will get cut down if he ever tries this. Sasuke distracts using Amaterasu, forcing him to absorb. This is followed by
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with
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. Madara is unlikely going to react since Naruto barely was able to.

Madara can only use Limbos for a
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before being used again. Should these attack,
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is viable since Sage-based attacks
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. Kagutsuchi Spikes repels them back until time is up.[
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]

Yasaka Beads will be deflected by another set beads.

Perfect Susanoo will be countered by another Perfect Susanoo. It's really that simple. An edge would be that his can still trade blows with Naruto's Chakra Avatar. Amenojikara supplements this to catch Madara off guard. A relentless beating will be done until Madara's Susanoo goes down.

Fire Style doesn't need much explaining.[
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]

Wood Style was a petty argument used in this matchup. They can be sliced down simply with PS. This or they can be burned down with barrages of Enton.[
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][
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]

Even then, Sasuke can fly out of reach and bisect Mokuton Giants. Considering that they are also
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. Perfect Kurama Susanoo fusion
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. This technique is much superior to all other Wood Style since
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. Rinnegan PS is gaps superior to the fusion.

Now...

If anyone has any objections to the points I made, feel free to post. But in a more appropiate manner. Posting in a butthurt way doesn't cut it, since it won't refute anything. I can take disagreements and reasons I'm wrong. But wank and blatant blank assertions are a different matter.

Questions?

Your reason for believing that the Rinnegan cannot be used to absorb while doing anything else is redundant. Sasuke wasn't able to because of his lack of mastery over the Rinnegan. Nagato was shown using multiple paths, including Preta, simultaneously.

Holy God · Jan 26, 2015

KidGamer65 said:
Sasuke can sense Nature Energy, yet he didn't sense Naruto gathering it. No reason to believe Madara will either, not to mention he'll be busy fighting Naruto anyway, he won't have time to worry about a clone.

Even though I agree that Madara's PS should be above the Kurama Avatar, this line of thinking doesn't make sense. Six Path's Senjutsu is merely an ability gained from Rikudo Chakra. Naruto's Avatar is equal to Sasuke's despite him having Rikudo Senjutsu "and" Hagoromo's chakra.

Mokuton is fodder, not sure why you are even mentioning it here. Unless Madara has something that's larger than the Shinju in scale, there's no use mentioning it, cause Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto w/o the Bijuu cloak one shotted the Shinju.

Madara has no Mokuton Jutsu that's strong enough to catch RSM Naruto's Bijuu Dama, not to mention Naruto has BDFRS, which he can't catch.

Or Naruto makes clones, and then he nukes CT and stops Madara from casting Infinite Tsukuyomi all at the same time.

Bijuu PS would obliterate Madara's Susanoo clones with little effort, and there's also the fact that instead of wasting time with them, Sasuke can go take care of the tree Madara is using to form Bijuu Dama. Using the barrier only makes it easier for Sasuke to escape since he'll be able to warp out of the barrier, meaning the Bijuu Dama goes off and no one gets hurt, regardless of BT attracting him or not.

Completely different situation. Sasuke had smacked that Naruto clone away, he thought it was done for. If Madara makes the same barrier Obito made, he's clearly going to realize that he's trying to use Bijuu Dama, and when he does that, he teleports down and cuts the tree, or teleports out of the barrier to evade it at the last minute.

Sasuke's Chibaku Tensei weren't that big because he didn't need to make them that big. Madara's were that big because he needed to make them that big to be a distraction. Madara's Rinnegan techniques>Sasuke's, but this logic is flawed beyond belief.

Ribcage won't make a difference when he can use Amenotejikara w/ Susanoo. He'd tear through said Ribcage and obliterate Madara. Hiding in Ash Jutsu isn't going to matter either since the scale of PS's techniques pretty much make hiding useless. One attack and he'll still catch Madara.

Already replied to above. This ends with Indra's Arrow blowing Madara to bits, and then Sasuke using the Bijuu's chakra to take Madara's Bijuu out of his body after he's been weakened. Same with Naruto.

He was referring to Wood-Style clones, not the kekkei-genkai itself, though I also don't agree that it's completely useless.

OG sama · Jan 26, 2015

Don't get why people are so stuck in the past. Lets just no this, Adult Sasuke and Hokage Naruto are stronger. They probably beat him 1v1.

Lightbringer · Jan 26, 2015

I agree that Madara would lose against a 2v1 Naruto and Sasuke

Individually JJ Madara defeats them both.

How does either of them seal Madara on their own? As a Juubi Jin, he can't die.

Against Naruto, he can just use his infinite tsukuyomi. Naruto has absolutely no way to counter its effects.

As for Sasuke, he has no counter for limbo. Naruto was the one that can seal the clones.

ANiMUS · Jan 26, 2015

Lightbringer said:
I agree that Madara would lose against a 2v1 Naruto and Sasuke

Individually JJ Madara defeats them both.

How does either of them seal Madara on their own? As a Juubi Jin, he can't die.

Against Naruto, he can just use his infinite tsukuyomi. Naruto has absolutely no way to counter its effects.

As for Sasuke, he has no counter for limbo. Naruto was the one that can seal the clones.

Actually when Sasuke did his black Chidori it wrapped around the Limbo. If it didn't affect him Sasuke's hand would have just gone through the Limbo. (Nothing other than rikudou Senjutsu should even be able to touch it, but that chidori did.) Sasuke's susano'o is made from the same power since Kakashi with Rikudou power was able to summon the same version Susano'o.

Hence Sasuke's Susano'o can affect Limbo. Sasuke probably only said that Rikudou senjutsu affects the Limbo because that is what Naruto used, but because Sasuke's chidori worked we know Rikudou chakra affects Limbo as well.

Sasuke could still at best only force them back\ protect himself from the Limbo\ swap them with his S/T jutsu. He has no known technique to seal them.

Lightbringer · Jan 26, 2015

KoroSensei said:
Actually when Sasuke did his black Chidori it wrapped around the Limbo. If it didn't affect him Sasuke's hand would have just gone through the Limbo. (Nothing other than rikudou Senjutsu should even be able to touch it, but that chidori did.) Sasuke's susano'o is made from the same power since Kakashi with Rikudou power was able to summon the same version Susano'o.

Hence Sasuke's Susano'o can affect Limbo. Sasuke probably only said that Rikudou senjutsu affects the Limbo because that is what Naruto used, but because Sasuke's chidori worked we know Rikudou chakra affects Limbo as well.

Sasuke could still at best only force them back\ protect himself from the Limbo\ swap them with his S/T jutsu. He has no known technique to seal them.

I'm not sure what you mean with the susanoo. But the shadows can't die, they can only be sealed as far as we know.

Madara with double rinnegan can create up to four shadows.

We also don't really know the full extent of the shadows. Can they only use taijutsu or also use the same jutsu as the user?

Before Madara became Juubi Jin, he used a limbo clone to knock down all the 9 bijuu at once. Some theorized that the limbo clone used a perfect susanoo because surely a regular non-juubi jin clone could not pull of this feat off using only taijutsu.

If that is the case, and the clones also use jutsu, then Sasuke stands no chance.

Xlad · Jan 27, 2015

Bronze said:
Let's keep this clean and respectful. Just on the side-note; your entire argumentation revolves around what Madara has strictly shown.

This implies that somehow I am giving Naruto and Sasuke feats that they haven't shown or implied they can use.

Not only this, but I have also give Madara feats of Six Red Yang Barrier, multiple TBB Trees, and Susanoo. Even though he hasn't shown this in this form. So I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up.

You can't argue like this. He has potential feats but haven't got the chance to show them, due to plot reasons.

For plot reasons? Oh, here we go.

Naruto:

The Gududama wouldn't be relevant for both sides, since as you said, they have immunity for each other. So the battle isn't basing on this.

Then we are on the same page then.

The summoned tree wasn't damaged by the fire-shots of Bijuu Dama that Obito fired. Why would FRS would do such thing, when Juubi TBB failed to do so?

Huh? Yes, it was damaged. The tree looked absolutely

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. Lava RS already bisected the Shinnju itself. So there is no reason for me to see that FRS wouldn't. I'm not just using FRS; I'm using both Odama and Chou Odama FRS.

Also, because unlike what Juubito did, Naruto will directly cut it down using these techniques.

-You're assuming Naruto packs as much raw power as Juubi Jinchuuriki. Furthermore, that barrier was by Hokage; this one is by Juubi Jinchuuriki, and stronger one than Obito. Nothing suggests he could burst it through raw power alone.

Why wouldn't he? Sure, he's unlikely to have raw power exceeding Juubi Jins. At the same time, he also has obtain Six Paths Sage Mode from Hagoromo himself. So he should have raw power that is within Juubi Jins range.

The entire point was to show that it isn't impossible to counter the barrier. Even if he can't tear it apart, it won't make a significant difference since he can destroy the cannons.

-The barrier tanked 4 TBB of the Juubi. Naruto's TBB feats haven't came close to the output AOE Juubi could casually do. And also, if he's blowing the barrier up, he's going to hurt himself as well.

That is a fallacy. Just a chunk of debris that fell already

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completely. Naruto's TBBRS blast radius extends much farther than the size of one CT itself. This is completely inferior to this

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he made.

Plus, this is to tear down the barrier itself.

That's assuming the only way to perform TBB is by summoning trees. It could be done by going on Juubi mode.

Then Naruto responds by summoning his Avatars. Juubi in it's large form was brought down by Hashirama's Myojinmon. Not only this, but even Hinata's

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completely pushed back its arm with ease. Naruto has far more power than that.

Also, even if I concede to that being the only way, its irrelevant. It wouldn't matter how TBBs are fired. It's the power that counts. If anything, firing through a tree is far superior to Juubi Mode since it can be done in multiple directions.

Those also can fire bombs that are just as large as this one. [

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][

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]

His most powerful based on what? But regardless, he stated the CT were ''raindrops''; he could obviously make far larger ones with being supplied with unlimited Chakra of Juubi and Rikudou's. And after such great size, Naruto wouldn't have the fire-power to take them out.

Based on destructive capacity. No feats from the other five Paths forced Naruto to use an extremely destructive tech such as Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken.

Madara was making a figure of speech. He basically made a paradox by saying they were "raindrops and at the same time said they were large. Plus, he

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. It wouldn't make any sense if he holded back on creating CT. The Juubi's chakra isn't limited;

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.

Incorrect.

He used Preta Path and Susanoo (before it was faded) simultaneously. [
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] Nagato also used Naraka Path and Human Path while absorbing Naruto's Rasengan; meaning it can be used with Ninjutsu at the same time. We don't know what he actually meant by ''that's a bit too much'' when absorbing FRS.

He was pulled out

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. Not only that, but before even activating Rinnegan itself. Using a tech that pulls a soul in to ones body does not equate to manifesting Chakra all over oneself.

He could have meant the fact it's ''too much'' by him possessing Rinnegan along with his EMS and young body, which later on had conversation with Kabuto about what he did to his body. Madara is Juubi Jinchuuriki, and grasps the planet's Natural Energy.

Those two dialouges aren't even related to each other. Madara also took a handle with Sage's Power when he used the Coffin Seal as opposed to what Obito did. If he was able to do that, then is no way he would be overwhelmed from possessing Rinnegan, EMS, and a young body.

To say he cannot absorb a little portion of Senjutsu from FRS, yet is able to contain planet's Senjutsu, is complete fallacy.

I never said he can not absorb a little portion of Senjutsu fron FRS. That's a strawman fallacy. I said that there is a limit to how much can Preta Path absorb in one succession.

Neither Naruto's avatar or Sasuke's PS is anywhere near the offering of a Juubi Jinchuuriki could do. Not even close. Their avatars are result of Chakra manifestation, and Juubi's Chakra > Hagoromo's Chakra.

Based on what they can not offer what the Juubi Jins can? Hagoromo's chakra was infused with Juubi's chakra. Evident by how Naruto used RSM through him. Plus, only Kaguya's chakra is far superior to Hagoromo.

Since Madara's PS is manifested by the materials of Juubi's Chakra, and add the fact he could fuse it with Juubi mode, like he did with Kurama, then you have power completely out of Naruto's league.

What's exactly special about the materials of Juubi's chakra? Hagoromo's chakra was infused with the exact same chakra. Which is why Naruto had Truth Seeker Orbs behind him.

That's an even more baseless assertion. I can also say that Naruto can expand TSOs to fit his Avatar's hands. I can also say that he can make more Shadow Clones and have them transform into multiheaded avatars. Without evidence of course.

To give you a closer look, this is how it looks like:

This is the Bijuu Dama Juubi fired which was teleported by Minato:

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It's radius range is highly above anything Naruto and Sasuke showed. Scale that power with Juubi manifested Perfect Susanoo, and Naruto has no chance at all.

Point taken.

Once again, you're underrating the scale of Juubi Jinchuuriki attacks. Madara used Shin: Jukai Kōtan at planetary scale after being followed with Infinite Tsukuyomi at planetary scale. Naruto will waste his entire energy blowing up portions of attack that covered the global. So yes, Mokuton is completely relevant.

How am I underrating them? Planetary scale means that it was able to reach across the planet. Yet Jukai Kotan was instead used to capture all of its victims. Instead of actually being used against those two. This actually would have been used on Naruto given how he stayed with his other teammates. But he didn't use it against him.

He absolutely does not need to waste all of his energy. BM Naruto and Five TB combined bomb already

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. RSM Naruto casually flicked a

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that completely engulf CT. Which is canonically larger

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. If Madara uses Jukai Kotan him, that means they are all going to the same spot in order to even reach him. This actually makes it far easier giving how Naruto can

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and destroy them in one spot.

Sasuke:

Gududama isn't valid here.

Okay.

Again, this is only assuming the only way to use TBB as Juubi Jinchuuriki, is by summoning trees. It's not necessity.

It was baseless on my part. Although the delievery is completely irrelevant again. If anything, using the trees is superior since TBBs can be fired in multiple directions as opposed only firing towards the mouth. It's power that's being dished out that counts. I also addressed this on Naruto's part.

Oh no. Sasuke is never matching the proportional sizes achieved by Juubi Jinchuuriki, meaning Madara's CT will shit on his.

Based on what? The raining clouds argument? Madara was actually taking Naruto and Sasuke seriously. Meaning its contradicting that he could have make them much larger, but didn't do so.

That's not relevant. He could wish to make as big as he wants, they will never be as large as Madara's, nor as destructive.

Raining clouds right?

Both characters can use Preta Path, so it's not relevant to mention this.

Alrighty then.

That was when he had 1 Rinnegan; this one has two Rinnegan, and didn't show any time-limit for Limbo. He went on from CT to IT to back on the battlefield, which took 2/3 chapters and Limbo clones were still there. And you actually think Kagutsuchi is going to touch them? lol no. Limbo evades them effortlessly.

Okay.

Chapter time =/= actual time.

No. Just to prevent them from getting any closer.

Madara's Perfect Susanoo > Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo. The latter is supplied by Juubi's Chakra, which is > Yin half of Hagoromo's Chakra, as well as the Rikudou Chakra Madara produces through the Rinnegan. And added he could fuse it with Juubi mode. So Madara shits on this aspect.

Again. I already addressed this part.

I addressed this on Naruto's as well. Sasuke isn't breaching a Mokuton that followed after IT on a global scale.

Yes he can. Wood isn't going to take in slicing attacks that can cut down CT. Not to mention that they can

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to take out the following Mokutons. Also they aren't going to take down flyng opponents with absurd DC. Plus, global scale in this means that it can reach across the planet. They still have to reach Sasuke together, which isn't happening.

Bronze · Feb 4, 2015

Esdeath said:
This implies that somehow I am giving Naruto and Sasuke feats that they haven't shown or implied they can use.

Not only this, but I have also give Madara feats of Six Red Yang Barrier, multiple TBB Trees, and Susanoo. Even though he hasn't shown this in this form. So I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up.

It's not you who gives the feats, it's the manga that gives and implies feats. What feats have the manga given him as Jinchuuriki? Limbo, Raiton technique, Chibaku Tensei, Infinite Tsukuyomi, Mokuton. What has the manga implied that he can do? Every Rinnegan technique Nagato and Obito showed, every Mokuton feat Hashirama showed, and the power traits Naruto and Sasuke have. Therefore, you will go by the feats he was implied capable of doing. If not, then you already conceded that he would be way to overwhelming for Naruto and Sasuke.

For plot reasons? Oh, here we go.

Let's see: He didn't show any Rinnegan technique beside Chibaku Tensei and Limbo, any Mokuton technique beside Shin: Jukai Kōtan, or PS. Unless you want to bring better explanation to the table, as to why he couldn't do that, then go on. If not, then as I said before: you conceded to my point in form of ignoring it.

Huh? Yes, it was damaged. The tree looked absolutely nothing like this before. Lava RS already bisected the Shinnju itself. So there is no reason for me to see that FRS wouldn't. I'm not just using FRS; I'm using both Odama and Chou Odama FRS.

Also, because unlike what Juubito did, Naruto will directly cut it down using these techniques.

All I'm seeing is scratches all over it. It's not like it wasn't nuked by 4 TBB's explosion, despite positioned on the hypocenter point. Also, what makes you think Shinju is more durable than the tree shot TBB? Its branches were cut by Samehada, gunbai and even massive sizes of it were cut by the likes of samurai. I don't have a reason to believe it had a great durability superior to the tree, when the latter can survive an explosion of TBB at hypocenter point.

Why wouldn't he? Sure, he's unlikely to have raw power exceeding Juubi Jins. At the same time, he also has obtain Six Paths Sage Mode from Hagoromo himself. So he should have raw power that is within Juubi Jins range.

The entire point was to show that it isn't impossible to counter the barrier. Even if he can't tear it apart, it won't make a significant difference since he can destroy the cannons.

Naruto having Rikudou Senjutsu means he the same trait powers as Juubi Jinchuuriki does: Senjutsu of the Six Paths, same cloak form, Gududama, flight, and Onmyouton. That doesn't mean he can produce equal raw power or greater than that of the Juubi Jinchuuriki. The technique is still dependent on the user; Naruto got it from Hagoromo, Madara and Obito got it from the Juubi. Juubi is a superior source of Rikudou Senjutsu than Hagoromo himself.

That is a fallacy. Just a chunk of debris that fell already overwhelmed mountain ranges completely. Naruto's TBBRS blast radius extends much farther than the size of one CT itself. This is completely inferior to this version he made.

Plus, this is to tear down the barrier itself.

Uh...No. The chunk of CT rubble Naruto and Sasuke cut all together dwarfed mountains. The size of the CT was equivalent to the Shinju's remains. Still though, nowhere near the AOE or output power as

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, let alone

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.

Then Naruto responds by summoning his Avatars. Juubi in it's large form was brought down by Hashirama's Myojinmon. Not only this, but even Hinata's Kyuubi Air Palm completely pushed back its arm with ease. Naruto has far more power than that.

Also, even if I concede to that being the only way, its irrelevant. It wouldn't matter how TBBs are fired. It's the power that counts. If anything, firing through a tree is far superior to Juubi Mode since it can be done in multiple directions.

Those also can fire bombs that are just as large as this one. [Tree Bombs][Beast Bomb]

Hashirama's Myojinmon only brought down the Juubi after the latter damaged itself with a repelled TBB. [

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] Previous to that, the full capacity was holding its tail. [

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] Also, you're not getting it. Myojinmon is a Fuinjutsu meaning designed to hold something down. Not like Naruto can achieve it with physical strength alone, when he doesn't have the feats or size to hold down the Juubi.

The maximum size of the TBB reached at

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. At that point, it was already dwarfing the Juubi itself.

Based on destructive capacity. No feats from the other five Paths forced Naruto to use an extremely destructive tech such as Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken.

Madara was making a figure of speech. He basically made a paradox by saying they were "raindrops and at the same time said they were large. Plus, he stopped playing around and start taking them seriously. It wouldn't make any sense if he holded back on creating CT. The Juubi's chakra isn't limited; not at all.

Click to expand...

Uh...Because the only path technique he used on them was Deva Path: Chibaku Tensei. How in the blue hell you deduced it that was his strongest one?

Lol, no. There was no figure of speech when afterwards, he was using Infinite Tsukuyomi to capture every living organism on the earth and used Mokuton afterward to prison them. Planetary techniques > Mountain range technique. So yes, they were raindrops and not figure of speech. And just before Black Zetsu betrays him, he says ''our game ends here'', meaning he wasn't taking them serious before. I didn't actually mean in the essence as infinite. I meant that Juubi's reserves are just massive in comparison to Naruto and Sasuke.

He was pulled out before hand. Not only that, but before even activating Rinnegan itself. Using a tech that pulls a soul in to ones body does not equate to manifesting Chakra all over oneself.

None of this made sense. Susanoo is Chakra manifestation; if the user is pulled out of it, it deactivates instantly. In Madara's case, it was fading away RIGHT AFTER he absorbed the Rasenshuriken. Thus, he activated Preta Path and Susanoo together.

Those two dialouges aren't even related to each other. Madara also took a handle with Sage's Power when he used the Coffin Seal as opposed to what Obito did. If he was able to do that, then is no way he would be overwhelmed from possessing Rinnegan, EMS, and a young body.

Again, you're not getting it. The dialogue was how Kabuto can learn Madara's body secrets, revive him at a state that surprised him, and hand him powers like the Rikudou. That is reference as in ''too much power''. Coffin Seal doesn't give the power to handle the Juubi; it seals the Juubi. You would need physical body and mental prowess to harness it. Obito had trouble, Madara didn't.

I never said he can not absorb a little portion of Senjutsu fron FRS. That's a strawman fallacy. I said that there is a limit to how much can Preta Path absorb in one succession.

Except there isn't. Preta Path absorbed all of Naruto's Senjutsu in one go, does that mean FRS has more quantity of Senjutsu than Naruto himself? Clearly not. Thus, Madara would have no trouble absorbing any of Naruto's Senjutsu attacks.

Based on what they can not offer what the Juubi Jins can? Hagoromo's chakra was infused with Juubi's chakra. Evident by how Naruto used RSM through him. Plus, only Kaguya's chakra is far superior to Hagoromo.

Juubi Jinchuuriki have far superior DC than Rikudou Naruto or Sasuke - that is a fact supported by feats and hype.

What's exactly special about the materials of Juubi's chakra? Hagoromo's chakra was infused with the exact same chakra. Which is why Naruto had Truth Seeker Orbs behind him.

That's an even more baseless assertion. I can also say that Naruto can expand TSOs to fit his Avatar's hands. I can also say that he can make more Shadow Clones and have them transform into multiheaded avatars. Without evidence of course.

The fact hosting the Juubi allows you to reach Hagoromo's full power, and in Madara's case, according to the databook, that is what makes it special. Juubi's Chakra > Hagoromo's Chakra = Hamura's Chakra. That's why they worked together to battle it.

What evidence do you want me to bring? That Susanoo can be used with Juubi? Lol. It's a Chakra manifestation, something every Naruto character can do. If you actually want to put the burden of proof upon me, you need to first challenge the proof itself.

How am I underrating them? Planetary scale means that it was able to reach across the planet. Yet Jukai Kotan was instead used to capture all of its victims. Instead of actually being used against those two. This actually would have been used on Naruto given how he stayed with his other teammates. But he didn't use it against him.

And where do you think the victims were? On the planet. It didn't work on Naruto, because it's a technique used in conjunction with IT, which was blocked by Sasuke's Rinnegan immunity.

He absolutely does not need to waste all of his energy. BM Naruto and Five TB combined bomb already engulf ranges of mountains. RSM Naruto casually flicked a hand held attack that completely engulf CT. Which is canonically larger than this one. If Madara uses Jukai Kotan him, that means they are all going to the same spot in order to even reach him. This actually makes it far easier giving how Naruto can fly out of reach and destroy them in one spot.

What the hell did I just read? Planetary scaling technique > mountain range techniques, so don't mention mountains in here. We're talking a planet, not mountains. And the most important of all, Naruto doesn't destroy them in one spot, when his full power is only able to expand to another country (actually, in conjunction with Sasuke's, so half that).

Not to mention I haven't mentioned the IT that he has no counter to.

Based on what? The raining clouds argument? Madara was actually taking Naruto and Sasuke seriously. Meaning its contradicting that he could have make them much larger, but didn't do so.

And before Black Zetsu betrayed him, he said ''our game ends here'', thus wasn't taking them serious before. Still, you haven't proved he can make them as large as Madara's, or any Rinnegan technique comparable to the output as Madara can either.

Raining clouds right?

Figure of speech, right? Lol, I already countered that part.

Okay.

Chapter time =/= actual time.

No. Just to prevent them from getting any closer.

Unless there were any flashbacks, then it's the actual time of the Naruto's world. Even if not, doesn't change that their time-limit has expanded much further than before.

Yes he can. Wood isn't going to take in slicing attacks that can cut down CT. Not to mention that they can extend very far to take out the following Mokutons. Also they aren't going to take down flyng opponents with absurd DC. Plus, global scale in this means that it can reach across the planet. They still have to reach Sasuke together, which isn't happening.

Based on what they can't reach to him? You realize the premise of that technique as I mentioned before, was to exhaust Sasuke's efforts on what attack.

Xlad · Feb 5, 2015

Illuminati 97 said:
It's not you who gives the feats, it's the manga that gives and implies feats. What feats have the manga given him as Jinchuuriki? Limbo, Raiton technique, Chibaku Tensei, Infinite Tsukuyomi, Mokuton. What has the manga implied that he can do? Every Rinnegan technique Nagato and Obito showed, every Mokuton feat Hashirama showed, and the power traits Naruto and Sasuke have. Therefore, you will go by the feats he was implied capable of doing. If not, then you already conceded that he would be way to overwhelming for Naruto and Sasuke.

Let's see: He didn't show any Rinnegan technique beside Chibaku Tensei and Limbo, any Mokuton technique beside Shin: Jukai Kōtan, or PS. Unless you want to bring better explanation to the table, as to why he couldn't do that, then go on. If not, then as I said before: you conceded to my point in form of ignoring it.

All I'm seeing is scratches all over it. It's not like it wasn't nuked by 4 TBB's explosion, despite positioned on the hypocenter point. Also, what makes you think Shinju is more durable than the tree shot TBB? Its branches were cut by Samehada, gunbai and even massive sizes of it were cut by the likes of samurai. I don't have a reason to believe it had a great durability superior to the tree, when the latter can survive an explosion of TBB at hypocenter point.

Naruto having Rikudou Senjutsu means he the same trait powers as Juubi Jinchuuriki does: Senjutsu of the Six Paths, same cloak form, Gududama, flight, and Onmyouton. That doesn't mean he can produce equal raw power or greater than that of the Juubi Jinchuuriki. The technique is still dependent on the user; Naruto got it from Hagoromo, Madara and Obito got it from the Juubi. Juubi is a superior source of Rikudou Senjutsu than Hagoromo himself.

Uh...No. The chunk of CT rubble Naruto and Sasuke cut all together dwarfed mountains. The size of the CT was equivalent to the Shinju's remains. Still though, nowhere near the AOE or output power as
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, let alone
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.

Hashirama's Myojinmon only brought down the Juubi after the latter damaged itself with a repelled TBB. [
You must be registered for see links
] Previous to that, the full capacity was holding its tail. [
You must be registered for see links
] Also, you're not getting it. Myojinmon is a Fuinjutsu meaning designed to hold something down. Not like Naruto can achieve it with physical strength alone, when he doesn't have the feats or size to hold down the Juubi.

The maximum size of the TBB reached at
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. At that point, it was already dwarfing the Juubi itself.

Uh...Because the only path technique he used on them was Deva Path: Chibaku Tensei. How in the blue hell you deduced it that was his strongest one?

Lol, no. There was no figure of speech when afterwards, he was using Infinite Tsukuyomi to capture every living organism on the earth and used Mokuton afterward to prison them. Planetary techniques > Mountain range technique. So yes, they were raindrops and not figure of speech. And just before Black Zetsu betrays him, he says ''our game ends here'', meaning he wasn't taking them serious before. I didn't actually mean in the essence as infinite. I meant that Juubi's reserves are just massive in comparison to Naruto and Sasuke.

None of this made sense. Susanoo is Chakra manifestation; if the user is pulled out of it, it deactivates instantly. In Madara's case, it was fading away RIGHT AFTER he absorbed the Rasenshuriken. Thus, he activated Preta Path and Susanoo together.

Again, you're not getting it. The dialogue was how Kabuto can learn Madara's body secrets, revive him at a state that surprised him, and hand him powers like the Rikudou. That is reference as in ''too much power''. Coffin Seal doesn't give the power to handle the Juubi; it seals the Juubi. You would need physical body and mental prowess to harness it. Obito had trouble, Madara didn't.

Except there isn't. Preta Path absorbed all of Naruto's Senjutsu in one go, does that mean FRS has more quantity of Senjutsu than Naruto himself? Clearly not. Thus, Madara would have no trouble absorbing any of Naruto's Senjutsu attacks.

Juubi Jinchuuriki have far superior DC than Rikudou Naruto or Sasuke - that is a fact supported by feats and hype.

The fact hosting the Juubi allows you to reach Hagoromo's full power, and in Madara's case, according to the databook, that is what makes it special. Juubi's Chakra > Hagoromo's Chakra = Hamura's Chakra. That's why they worked together to battle it.

What evidence do you want me to bring? That Susanoo can be used with Juubi? Lol. It's a Chakra manifestation, something every Naruto character can do. If you actually want to put the burden of proof upon me, you need to first challenge the proof itself.

And where do you think the victims were? On the planet. It didn't work on Naruto, because it's a technique used in conjunction with IT, which was blocked by Sasuke's Rinnegan immunity.

What the hell did I just read? Planetary scaling technique > mountain range techniques, so don't mention mountains in here. We're talking a planet, not mountains. And the most important of all, Naruto doesn't destroy them in one spot, when his full power is only able to expand to another country (actually, in conjunction with Sasuke's, so half that).

Not to mention I haven't mentioned the IT that he has no counter to.

And before Black Zetsu betrayed him, he said ''our game ends here'', thus wasn't taking them serious before. Still, you haven't proved he can make them as large as Madara's, or any Rinnegan technique comparable to the output as Madara can either.

Figure of speech, right? Lol, I already countered that part.

Unless there were any flashbacks, then it's the actual time of the Naruto's world. Even if not, doesn't change that their time-limit has expanded much further than before.

Based on what they can't reach to him? You realize the premise of that technique as I mentioned before, was to exhaust Sasuke's efforts on what attack.

Lol So you did reply after all. I am eager to read what you have to say.

UchihaGodMadara · Feb 5, 2015

All you Madara Haters making a little cult here... U should all feel bad

KingHashirama · Feb 5, 2015

Madara with both Rinnegans as a Jincuriki would've beat them.

Madara = better fighter. The guy had the power to casually keep them busy, so he can casually fly and do his IT..... loll..

Kaguya = just has alot of power

AnonymousShinobi · Feb 5, 2015

Omar19992010 said:
You actually make a Pretty Good Argument

Naruto
People forget that Ashura Avatar requires tons of Natural energy which Naruto needs tons of time to gather all that Natural energy it's not gonna happen when Madara will be able to sense Naruto gathering it and put a stop to it.

Kurama Avatar would be put down by PS which would theoretically be stronger than Kurama Avatar due to the fact that
Six Paths Senjutsu + Rikudo Chakra>Six Paths Senjutsu.

Clones are useless when Madara can counter them with Mokuton and Limbo clones plus Madara can tell which one's the Original so he'll just go after the original and Rasenshuriken and Rasengan variants get absorbed with Preta Path. Plus Mokuton isn't as useless as you think. If Naruto goes ahead and fires of TBB Madara can just throw it back at him.

Chibaku Tensei and Limbo clones keep Naruto busy just like in Cannon and in that time Madara cast IT to get rid of Naruto. If Naruto decides to Kyuubi Avatar to blow up the Chibaku Tensei. Madara just makes them Bigger. Madara can regnerate from all of Naruto's attacks within seconds

Sasuke
With the use of Mokuton Clones which could theoretically use Perfect Susano'o Madara would keep Sasuke busy enough for him to charge up a Quad Juubi TBB and he uses the Red Yang Barrier so the Quad Juubi TBB are actually more focused. He uses BT to pull Sasuke's Susano'o from the sky into the Red Yang Barrier and his Susano'o proceeds to get eradicated by the TBB.

You're going to say that Sasuke is going to realize that Madara is prepping a Quad Juubi TBB however Sasuke didn't even realize that Naruto was gathering Natural energy until it was actually transferred back to the original so he can keep him busy while the Real Madara is actually prepping the TBB.

There's a Major difference between the Scale of Madara's Rinnegan Techniques and Sasuke's. Sasuke's is on a way lower scale than Madara's.

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Sasuke's Chibaku Tensei wasn't even as big as the Shinju trunk while only one of Madara's Chibaku Tensei Satellites is about the same size as the Shinju trunk. Madara's Chibaku Tensei makes Sasuke's look like a Joke. If they were to clash Madara's would easily prevail and remember what Madara did was casual he didn't even break a sweat.

Madara can easily avoid a Blitz coming from Sasuke. He uses a Rib Cage Susano'o to so Sasuke can't hit him while in CQC and then he uses Fire Style: Hiding in Ash Jutsu to make Amenotejikara useless due to the fact he can't swap with anything he can't see. Even if he does hit him so what. Madara just regenerates and takes anything Sasuke has to throw at him.

While Madara's PS would be weaker than Sasuke's Bijuu PS it would actually be stronger then Sasuke's ordinary PS and he can theoretically do what Naruto did is use Mokuton Clones that can use Perfect Susano'o to combat Sasuke's Bijuu Perfect Susano'o long enough until his TBB are ready to go.

Some of the things you said about Sasuke was straight idiotic.

Sasukes Rinnegan is way lower than Madara's? Lol naw man.
Sasukes Rinnegan feats are above Madara's. One the size of Madara's CT compared to Sasukes doesn't mean shit. Sasuke only needed nine CT and he made it casually without breaking a sweat. What's more is that Sasuke was able to make his CT without a core. That only puts Sasuke CT way above Madara's. Let's not forget Sasukes PS was casually slicing up Madara's CT.

Madara countering Amenotejikara with a ribcage? Lol, madara won't have any time to put a ribcage up before he gets sliced in two. RSM Naruto, who has the best reaction feats we have seen inthe manga yet, wasn't even able to completely avoid Amenotejikara, and you think Madara, who wasn't able to avoid being sliced in half by Sasuke (not using Amenotejikara) is going to have time to put up a ribcage? Okay...

Beans2 · Feb 5, 2015

Man can't believe the amount of criticism you're getting.

This was a great thread and you covered everything.Naruto > Madara and Sasuke > Madara, individually this is not that hard to understand. RSM Naruto beats him mid-high difficulty if IT is not used. Rinnegan Sasuke beats Madara mid-high difficulty. VOTE2 Sasuke beats him low difficulty. Just because they cannot seal him individually does not change the fact that they are much stronger. This Madara wank is getting ridiculous, some people still think he beats both at once? They stomp him together.

AnonymousShinobi · Feb 5, 2015

beansandcornbread2 said:
Man can't believe the amount of criticism you're getting.

This was a great thread and you covered everything.Naruto > Madara and Sasuke > Madara, individually this is not that hard to understand. RSM Naruto beats him mid-high difficulty if IT is not used. Rinnegan Sasuke beats Madara mid-high difficulty. VOTE2 Sasuke beats him low difficulty. Just because they cannot seal him individually does not change the fact that they are much stronger. This Madara wank is getting ridiculous, some people still think he beats both at once? They stomp him together.

Agree with everything, but...

Rinnegan Sasuke beats Madara extremely high diff
Bijuu low-mid diff

ARGUS · Feb 5, 2015

Ashura avatar naruto > madara > RSM naruto
BPS sasuke > madara > rinnegan sasuke

Xlad · Feb 5, 2015

So that's where my thread was. Lol In this section now.

beansandcornbread2 said:
Man can't believe the amount of criticism you're getting.

This was a great thread and you covered everything.Naruto > Madara and Sasuke > Madara, individually this is not that hard to understand. RSM Naruto beats him mid-high difficulty if IT is not used. Rinnegan Sasuke beats Madara mid-high difficulty. VOTE2 Sasuke beats him low difficulty. Just because they cannot seal him individually does not change the fact that they are much stronger. This Madara wank is getting ridiculous, some people still think he beats both at once? They stomp him together.

Thanks.

I agree that whole Madara jerk circle is getting way out of hand. Some of those wank arguments is just too funny to read. Lol

KingHashirama said:
Madara with both Rinnegans as a Jincuriki would've beat them.

Madara = better fighter. The guy had the power to casually keep them busy, so he can casually fly and do his IT..... loll..

Kaguya = just has alot of power

...

Wow. Why am I not surprised at this? Lol

AnonymousShinobi · Feb 5, 2015

Esdeath said:
So that's where my thread was. Lol In this section now.

Thanks. I agree that whole Madara jerk circle is getting way out of hand. Some of those wank arguments is just too funny to read. Lol

...

Wow. Why am I not surprised at this? Lol

Who even takes KingHashirama seriously?

GLUU · Feb 5, 2015

hypothetically, the extent of madaras techniques as a jin are countless,
and based on the fact that madara was confident enough to take down both naruto and sasuke at the same time leads me to believe that he at the very least is individually superior to naruto and sasuke

Conspirator. · Feb 5, 2015

Good analysis.

Xlad · Feb 7, 2015

GLUU said:
hypothetically, the extent of madaras techniques as a jin are countless,
and based on the fact that madara was confident enough to take down both naruto and sasuke at the same time leads me to believe that he at the very least is individually superior to naruto and sasuke

Based on what are there countless potential for Madara? Him being confident that he can take both Naruto and Sasuke down isn't a valid argument. Because I already addressed that he didn't take full account of their abilities.

SkyFall25 said:
Good analysis.

Thanks.

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