Establishing Why Tobirama > EMS Madara

[Joker]

you'll kill the vibe, step down.

You have some nerve Tim.

 

[Flawž]

yes,i agree,tobirama has chances for victory...but so does madara...my point was just that you can always think of a way for one character to win....wait for some madara fans and you will get a totally different scenario where madara clearly wins.i could do it myself,but i am too lazy to do it.

that is why i believe the true decisive thing about which of the two is greater is the manga itself. numerously was it stated and hinted that only hashirama could beat madara........ thowever tobirama is still on par with madara i believe

Exactly, Both sides bring out different types of scenarios in which they believe Said character would win. I agree that Hashirama was the only one who could of beaten EMS madara but that was for the sake of plot. (Only Madara's friend is able to truly defeat him etc.) No doubt about it, Tobirama is on par with EMS madara, Can he beat him? Well Feat wise he could, Madara can as well.

 

[Gaara Of The Death]

Looks like the Tobirama fan-base just destroyed the Madara fan-base. Not one Madara fan put up a good fight GG Madara.

Still a shame he beats EMS Madara but loses the SM Minato.....U_U.

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[HNIC]

I don't understand the point of this. Madara wasn't at his peaked, just got EMS. And even stated he is different/stronger then he was years later.[

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So did Tobirama and Hashirama, who eventually learn and made newer techniques as time past...



Huh? What did Haku prove? Me right or me wrong? And did how did the scans prove me wrong?

I don't see the defined pigmentations as you noted. Particularly in the last scan. Tobimara is a weaponry user and as Madara described he liked to sneak attack (hunt). Again, that last scan describes these type of users, all who Tobimara was portrayed to be.

So considering that and it's visual appearance, it's more logical to be needles. Maybe needles covered with water.

 

[VongolaX]

Great thread, totally disagree though.

Hashirama is slightly stronger than EMS Madara, yet Hashirama in full power could not kill Madara.

He can beat Madara, but he can't kill him.

So with that being posted, does that mean Hashirama is also inferior to Tobirama?

No

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I don't see the defined pigmentations as you noted. Particularly in the last scan. Tobimara is a weaponry user and as Madara described he liked to sneak attack. Again, that last scan describes these type of users, all who Tobimara was portrayed to be.

So considering that and it's visual appearance, it's more logical to be needles. Maybe needles covered with water.

Good point. But visual appearance shows that the needles slashed on Susanoo. If it was as solid as a normal sebon, it would of bounce off from the chakra Madara manifested to block it.

 

[Aya San]

You saying Tobirama's suiton matches Madara's katon and can overwhelm it?

 

[shelke]

He never openly said he reacted to it. He could have been talking about the Izuna fight when he witnessed FTG.

Can you give me a scan on the first part? I didn't read anything prior to 619 ish.

We are using power scaling first off, and secondly Tobirama doesn't need to douse the whole fire like the SA did. He only needs to douse the parts that will hurt him. Not the parts that are hundreds of yards away.

That is your opinion. u.u

It was quite explicit from what I can tell. Pretty cut and dry.

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- The purifying pot was travelling at the speed of light.

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- Tsunade being teleported to the battle-field with the same technique.

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-http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/562/14 - Madara reacted and guarded perfectly. Muu on the other hand, got smashed into the hill.

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Muu evaded him, when he was coming from behind.

Given his current feats, I do not expect him to guard himself against such large scaled devastating Katon attacks with his own sution. Madara's Katon Destruction and Extermination, seem to spread in a powerful wave format.

Aren't we all giving opinions?

Then there is this as well, as AGoodBoy posted:

Spoiler

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His Clan had abandoned him and this, this was clearly an EMS Madara versus several Senju Clan members.

 

[Penguin]

Great thread, totally disagree though.

Hashirama is slightly stronger than EMS Madara, yet Hashirama in full power could not kill Madara.

He can beat Madara, but he can't kill him.

So with that being posted, does that mean Hashirama is also inferior to Tobirama?

No

Hashirama never had killing intent towards Madara from my understanding though. But to each his own. I don't think Tobirama beats EMS Madara + Kyuubi, but pushes him to high diff due to portrayal. I think Tobirama beats EMS Madara without Kyuubi though.

 

[WolfHaley]

Good point. But visual appearance shows that the needles slashed on Susanoo. If it was as solid as a normal sebon, it would of bounce off from the chakra Madara manifested to block it.

Not necessarily, it may have piercing power, but at its core it's still water. Madara still resorted to Susano'o to block it.

 

[AGoodBoy]

You mean Senju Vs Uchiha which were wipped out leaving madara left for dead?

Some people cannot comprehend such a simple manga scan. :|

So, you're saying, during the 24 hours, before madara stopped from exhaustion, the senju could've killed him... but they chose not to? So, were all the fodders fighting madara, while tobirama and hashi fought the uchiha fodder for 24 hours?

I don't understand the point of this. Madara wasn't at his peaked, just got EMS. And even stated he is different/stronger then he was years later.[

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So did Tobirama and Hashirama, who eventually learn and made newer techniques as time past...

lol.

couldn't beat madara then, with backup from hashi. but he could solo later, while madara kept honing his skills with the strongest senju. uh huh :yeah:

 

[WolfHaley]

You saying Tobirama's suiton matches Madara's katon and can overwhelm it?

At it's core it doesn't matter if he can or can't, so long as he counters the water in his immediate vicinit - which is easily done. Why would he need care about the excess?

 

[Gold Lightning]

As good as this thread is, I'll have to say Madara wins 6 time out of 10. Kishi already portrayed that Hashirama is the only one that can stop Madara. Even after Madara was revived via Edo tensei he was still shouting Hashirama's name. And at the end of the day I'd rather go based on what the manga says than some impressive speculative theory.

Tobirama may have his chances but I still think EMS Madara > Tobirama.

If only FTG could warp away Susanoo or move Madara out if it then I'd change my mind maybe.

 

[Penguin]

As good as this thread is, I'll have to say Madara wins 6 time out of 10. Kishi already portrayed that Hashirama is the only one that can stop Madara. Even after Madara was revived via Edo tensei he was still shouting Hashirama's name. And at the end of the day I'd rather go based on what the manga says than some impressive speculative theory.

Tobirama may have his chances but I still think EMS Madara > Tobirama.

If only FTG could warp away Susanoo or move Madara out if it then I'd change my mind maybe.

Hiraishin can warp Susano'o. u.u

 

[KidGamer65]

Lol, my sides. Now we have people arguing that Tobirama can defeat EMS Madara, w/Kurama......:leaf:

-Tobirama is NOT defeating EMS Madara, with or without Kurama. Even attempting to argue the latter is absurd. He isn't even pushing him past mid difficulty when he has Kurama on his side, in fact its a stomp.

-Tobirama is NOT on EMS Madara's level, definitely not by feats and definitely not by portrayal either. Manga already portrays Madara and Hashirama as the two best of their era. Not Tobirama, Madara and Hashirama. Don't even know where people are getting this one from.

Lets stop overrating him why don't we?

 

[HNIC]

Good point. But visual appearance shows that the needles slashed on Susanoo. If it was as solid as a normal sebon, it would of bounce off from the chakra Madara manifested to block it.

I'm not seeing this splashing effect you speak of. If I were to see that than I'd agree, but I don't see it in that scan so I'm assuming needles.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Hiraishin can warp Susano'o. u.u

I know it can, but Will the user warp with it too?

 

[Flawž]

I know it can, but Will the user warp with it too?

No. Evidence of this was when madara was taken out of Susano'o by Gaara's sand and it stood it's ground for a bit before breaking down.

 

[WolfHaley]

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Just thought I'd throw this out here.

That's Kakashi when essentially banked out on chakra and still making Bushin to that extent; Tobirama could easily replicate this feat and we have to remember all these Bushin would move at Tobirama's speed.

I don't necessarily believe he wins, but it's worth note.

 

[Gold Lightning]

No. Evidence of this was when madara was taken out of Susano'o by Gaara's sand and it stood it's ground for a bit before breaking down.

Then it all comes down to how fast a susanoo user can regenerate the susanoo.