Establishing Why Tobirama > EMS Madara

[Flawž]

Hmm....I see...this seems to be a concluded result based on how you perceive their battle to go. Of course that's fine, and the hard work is admirable, but I disagree. Also....when Madara says there is a gulf in their skills I believe he is saying that Tobirama and Hashirama were quite formidable in the past, but there was a gap. And nao that gap is tremendous.... Is how I interpreted it. In the past Madara even shows to not acknowledge Tobirama as an equal, by stating Hashirama was his only contender. So with that....I feel there is no way Tobirama could be greater than Madara EMS.

You also say you're establishing why Tobirama is greater than EMS Madara, then go on to say he can rival him and face him. I agree he can face him, but I feel Tobirama would lose. I'm not saying you are wrong, as we haven't seen them fight in the past in a vs. I wholeheartedly disagree with Tobirama winning though. Madara says back then only Hashirama could compete with him upon equal grounds. Imho Tobirama is a hefty bit weaker than EMS Madara...though Tobirama still being the third strongest of their time.

This is why I believe Tobirama is not greater than EMS Madara during their time. >_O

madara was talking about the current situation, How With Senju Dna/hashirama's Senjutsu and the rinnegan, He widened the gap between their powers greatly.

 

[Penguin]

Most of this is based on speculation. Madara had reacted to Tobirama's FTG in the past as well, something he mentions during the conversation.

He never openly said he reacted to it. He could have been talking about the Izuna fight when he witnessed FTG.

Madara has also shown feats to react to Mabui's 'Speed of Light Teleportation' of Tsunade and Ae, whilst Muu, who is in fact one of the two best sensors in the manga couldn't evade - he evaded KCM Naruto's attack from behind, quite effortlessly.

Can you give me a scan on the first part? I didn't read anything prior to 619 ish.

Putting a tag on PS and then Breaching are two separate endeavours. Tobirama's Suiton is not powerful or sizable enough, given his feats, to quell Katon Extermination, that was literally around half of kilometer. Even Destruction took an unknown line of Water Guns to stop it in its tracks. Any of his attacks denting V2 and above are mere speculations.

We are using power scaling first off, and secondly Tobirama doesn't need to douse the whole fire like the SA did. He only needs to douse the parts that will hurt him. Not the parts that are hundreds of yards away.

EMS Madara beats Tobirama with his current Skill-Set, Mid Difference when Madara is having a really bad day. Great Thread though. It's well-written and thought out. I just do not agree.

That is your opinion. u.u

 

[Flawž]

Just watched the episode again, the scan is water.

It is water but you have to remember that it was Senjutsu enhanced. If anything, tobirama's feat makes it more deadlier as he can use high level suiton on the level of a senjutsu user.

 

[Penguin]

Just watched the episode again, the scan is water.

Maybe in the anime. Look up what "Zessen" means.

Spoiler

Zessen is written with the kanji for "tongue" and "battle". It can be translated as to "battle with tongues". In normal use, however, it means "war of words", or "verbal dispute", in reference to Fukasaku and Shima arguing all the time. The full kanji can be translated as "War of Words Slash".

 

[Sir Blades]

By power scaling. If Tobirama's suiton matched part one Hiruzen's and neither had a lot of chakra to work with, then they should be able to match each others Ninjutsu. So if Tobirama pressurizes a suiton of

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caliber, then it would be bigger.



It translates into fighting tongue slash. u.u

Ask Bogard. If he tells you, I bet you will listen. Lol

It is used as a play on words, Kishi calls it Tongue slash because its a Frog technique that makes the water look like a tongue. Read the page and look at it, the water starts wide then fukasaku puts air in to his mouth to add pressure and make it smaller. Its the same with Toad oil and toad fire, dont tell me that Jiraiya shoots live toads made of fire or that ma shoots toads bathed in oil.
I agree with most the things you say, but you are completely wrong on this one, both of you are.

 

[WolfHaley]

Can you give me a scan on the first part? I didn't read anything prior to 619 ish.

They didn't actually attack at light speed, they attacked once they teleported.

Plus that wasn't Mū, that was Kabuto controlling him - the same guy who tried to use Jinton once Mū had divided himself.

 

[AGoodBoy]

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Took the entire senju clan, including hashi and tobirama, 24 hours just to beat madara from exhaustion. and, tobirama had intent to kill.

Tobirama doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Sir Blades]

Maybe in the anime. Look up what "Zessen" means.

Spoiler

Zessen is written with the kanji for "tongue" and "battle". It can be translated as to "battle with tongues". In normal use, however, it means "war of words", or "verbal dispute", in reference to Fukasaku and Shima arguing all the time. The full kanji can be translated as "War of Words Slash".

KingFlaws has the right answer, its water but senjutsu based, you are blatantly saying it was his actual tongue. Its a play on words bro, since when do you take names so literal? Oh I forgot that when it comes to Tobirama everything you say or think is absolute.

 

[Bogard]

It is used as a play on words, Kishi calls it Tongue slash because its a Frog technique that makes the water look like a tongue. Read the page and look at it, the water starts wide then fukasaku puts air in to his mouth to add pressure and make it smaller. Its the same with Toad oil and toad fire, dont tell me that Jiraiya shoots live toads made of fire or that ma shoots toads bathed in oil.
I agree with most the things you say, but you are completely wrong on this one, both of you are.

Eventhough it doesn't look like it and doesn't make sense to me, it is indeed his tongue, at least according to databook that already explained the workings of the technique

By kneading senjutsu chakra, Fukasaku's long tongue gains utmost solidity and sharpness. It then leaps from his mouth with tremendous speed and force, even tearing a hole in the bedrock and through metal pipes. With that ground-splitting power, the enemy is cut in half. The way that both the enemy and the ground itself are cut apart is reminiscent of the strike of a great sword.

 

[WolfHaley]

KingFlaws has the right answer, its water but senjutsu based, you are blatantly saying it was his actual tongue. Its a play on words bro, since when do you take names so literal? Oh I forgot that when it comes to Tobirama everything you say or think is absolute.

Why are you so upset?

 

[Flawž]

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Took the entire senju clan, including hashi and tobirama, 24 hours just to beat madara from exhaustion. and, tobirama had intent to kill.

Tobirama doesn't stand a chance.

You mean Senju Vs Uchiha which were wipped out leaving madara left for dead?

Some people cannot comprehend such a simple manga scan. :|

 

[RikudouMadara]

madara was talking about the current situation, How With Senju Dna/hashirama's Senjutsu and the rinnegan, He widened the gap between their powers greatly.

Yes....I meant to speak only on Tobirama. My apologies everyone I meant that I felt he was saying. That Tobirama was formidable in the past, but there was a gap. And that nao that gap is tremendous. I didn't mean to put Hashirama there. I believe the gap in skill is due to Madara living so much longer then they have.

As skill is not power....so I don't believe Madara is speaking on them currently with his newly acquired power.

 

[HNIC]

We have to examine other sebon used in the manga.

Kin Tsuchi[

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Shizun[

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Sasori[

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][

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These sebon shows a clear digestion on how sebon looks. 1. Refined and shaped evenally. 2. Dark pigmentation on white areas.

While Tobirama arent shaped correctly and no dark pigmentation. Which conclude he is using chakra manipulation.

Haku proves otherwise

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Those very well could have been needles used by Tobimara

 

[3MESSIAH]

Tobirama Is a formidable opponent. He has the Increible speed (FTG), incredible power (Edo tensei and suiton) and he has the intellects giving him the ability to analysis his opponent perfectly specially in a life or death situation.

I believe Feats wise, Tobirama has the versatile advantage as he can move at light speed, Can use a variety of jutsu and is able to analysis his opponent giving him the edge on madara.

The fight goes either way but Feat wise, i believe tobirama has the upper hand as he can beat madara in lots different types of situations compared to madara.

yes,i agree,tobirama has chances for victory...but so does madara...my point was just that you can always think of a way for one character to win....wait for some madara fans and you will get a totally different scenario where madara clearly wins.i could do it myself,but i am too lazy to do it.

that is why i believe the true decisive thing about which of the two is greater is the manga itself. numerously was it stated and hinted that only hashirama could beat madara........ thowever tobirama is still on par with madara i believe

 

[Gold Lightning]

It is water but you have to remember that it was Senjutsu enhanced. If anything, tobirama's feat makes it more deadlier as he can use high level suiton on the level of a senjutsu user.

I know it's a good feat for tobirama. I just think penguin is wrong in saying Tobiramas has more pressure. Fukasaku slice through pipes and wall plus the chameleon with 0 effort. I've only seen Tobirama use it on a tree so I can't judge.

Maybe in the anime. Look up what "Zessen" means.

Spoiler

Zessen is written with the kanji for "tongue" and "battle". It can be translated as to "battle with tongues". In normal use, however, it means "war of words", or "verbal dispute", in reference to Fukasaku and Shima arguing all the time. The full kanji can be translated as "War of Words Slash".

I doubt Fukasaku can expand his tongue that far apart. Maybe it was a mistake, sure looks like water. And the anime don't get such obvious details as that wrong, I'm sure they would have known it was a tongue considering Shima used her tongue a second earlier.

Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks like water and the anime showed water so you know

 

[Joker]

Intresting arguments, I might participate.

 

[HNIC]

By power scaling. If Tobirama's suiton matched part one Hiruzen's and neither had a lot of chakra to work with, then they should be able to match each others Ninjutsu. So if Tobirama pressurizes a suiton of

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caliber, then it would be bigger.



It translates into fighting tongue slash. u.u

Ask Bogard. If he tells you, I bet you will listen. Lol

Again, we still don't know none of the power scales for certain. That's speculation at most.

I'd like to see this translation myself

 

[Optimistic]

Intresting arguments, I might participate.

you'll kill the vibe, step down.

 

[Penguin]

I know it's a good feat for tobirama. I just think penguin is wrong in saying Tobiramas has more pressure. Fukasaku slice through pipes and wall plus the chameleon with 0 effort. I've only seen Tobirama use it on a tree so I can't judge.


I doubt Fukasaku can expand his tongue that far apart. Maybe it was a mistake, sure looks like water. And the anime don't get such obvious details as that wrong, I'm sure they would have known it was a tongue considering Shima used her tongue a second earlier.

I am saying Tobirama has more pressure since he has a bigger attack to pressurize.

Interesting, but the thing is Fukasaku's technique, Fighting Tongue Slash (Zessenzan), is not a Water Release technique like Tobirama's. He is using his tongue - it's derived from the Fighting Tongue Bind technique (Zessenbaku):

Spoiler

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Fighting Tongue* Slash (舌戦斬, Zessenzan)
Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, All ranges
User: Fukasaku

If one has a tongue, one is ready to bisect
The flavour of that slash is like a battle axe!!

By kneading senjutsu chakra, Fukasaku's long tongue gains utmost solidity and a slash flavoured like an excellent sword. It then leaps from his mouth with great speed, even tearing a hole in the bedrock. With that ground-splitting power, the enemy is cut in half

↓Fukasaku's tongue flies at the target with tremendous force.
[picture of Fukasaku shooting out his tongue]

[picture of Pain's chameleon summon being cut in half]
→The way the both the enemy and the ground itself are cut apart is reminiscent of the strike of a great sword.

Why all that hate? Stay mad. Lol

It is used as a play on words, Kishi calls it Tongue slash because its a Frog technique that makes the water look like a tongue. Read the page and look at it, the water starts wide then fukasaku puts air in to his mouth to add pressure and make it smaller. Its the same with Toad oil and toad fire, dont tell me that Jiraiya shoots live toads made of fire or that ma shoots toads bathed in oil.
I agree with most the things you say, but you are completely wrong on this one, both of you are.

KingFlaws has the right answer, its water but senjutsu based, you are blatantly saying it was his actual tongue. Its a play on words bro, since when do you take names so literal? Oh I forgot that when it comes to Tobirama everything you say or think is absolute.

I don't get why you got so mad. I didn't come off as offensive, and if I did my bad. But what ever is up that ass, pull it out. Lol

 

[Brother Numpsay]

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Took the entire senju clan, including hashi and tobirama, 24 hours just to beat madara from exhaustion. and, tobirama had intent to kill.

Tobirama doesn't stand a chance.

I don't understand the point of this. Madara wasn't at his peaked, just got EMS. And even stated he is different/stronger then he was years later.[

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So did Tobirama and Hashirama, who eventually learn and made newer techniques as time past...

Haku proves otherwise

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Those very well could have been needles used by Tobimara

Huh? What did Haku prove? Me right or me wrong? And did how did the scans prove me wrong?