Establishing why: Sasuke > Kabuto [Debate]

[Shura]

Conditions

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Versus​

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The Conditions of the Battle

Spoiler

Both are Fresh and fully rested
Intel: Basic Manga Knowledge
Location: Grassy Plain
35 Meters Distance

How Sasuke would overcome Kabuto in a 1v1 Battle:​

Countering Base Kabuto's Abilities:​

Of course, countering base Kabuto's abilities will not be hard for Sasuke because his base arsenal consists of this:

- Chakura no Mesu [Commonly known as the Chakra Scalpel]
- Sen'ei Tajashu [Commonly known as the Many Hidden Shadow Snake Hands]
- Kuchiyose: Manda 2
- Orochimaru-Ryū no Kawarimi no Jutsu [Commonly known as the Orochimaru-Style Body Replacement Technique]
- Suiton [Commonly known as the Water Style]

I'll start off with Sasuke's counter to the Chakura no Mesu [Which will not prove itself to be a threat to Sasuke]. We have already seen that in the manga, Itachi was able to counter the Chakura no Mesu with Sasuke's own Kusanagi. Sasuke would simply counter it in the same way and it's unlikely that Kabuto could manage to hit Sasuke with the Chakura no Mesu considering that

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without recieving a single scratch from any of them. Please keep in mind that

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and that

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. Furthermore, Sasuke was

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. All in all, Sasuke would be perfectly capable of keeping up with Kabuto in a Taijutsu match. Let's not forget that Sasuke could simply counter the Chakura no Mesu

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. Because of that, Kabuto won't be able to touch him anymore.

Itachi parrying against Kabuto's Chakura no Mesu with Sasuke's Kusanagi

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Sen'ei Tajashu will not be a problem either since Sasuke would counter it

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just like he did in the manga. Now the only problematic snake Kabuto has left in his arsenal is Manda 2, but due to Sasuke possessing the Sharingan, getting rid off Manda 2 won't be hard. Summoning the Manda 2 would help Sasuke since he can simply use his Genjutsu to control the Manda 2 just like he did with the original Manda. This would mean that Sasuke would have two summonings on his side which happen to be his own Aoda and Kabuto's Manda 2.

Sasuke using Genjutsu to control the original Manda

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Kabuto's Suiton affinity will not be a problem here since it can be countered in multiple ways. The first way would be

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. The second way would be using his Raiton on Kabuto's Suiton which will electrocute Kabuto himself due to the fact that

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. And the third and last way would simply be putting up the Susano'o ribcage which would tank it easily since even a Chou Ōdama Rasengan couldn't put a scratch on it.

The Susano'o Ribcage tanking the Chou Ōdama Rasengan

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With that being said, the only problem left is the Orochimaru-Ryū no Kawarimi no Jutsu which is countered by Sasuke's Amaterasu. Usually the Orochimaru-Ryū no Kawarimi no Jutsu would be used to counter Amaterasu, but not this time. Once Amaterasu hits Kabuto,

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and then by focusing his eye on it, he can make it devour Kabuto's body in order to kill him just like Itachi's Amaterasu did to Sasuke's flames. Of course, if Kabuto by some chance manages to get out of the old body, Sasuke can simply manipulate the Amaterasu using the Enton in order for it to go to Kabuto's new body and envelope it as well. Another simple counter would be using his Enton Blade to cut Kabuto's head off and I don't believe that Kabuto has shown the ability to survive that. If anything else fails, Sasuke can simply abuse his Amaterasu in order to prepare Kirin and once it is prepared, it will destroy Kabuto's body completely. Please keep in mind that it won't be hard for Sasuke to gather thunder clouds since

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and Katon heat combination was capable of doing so.

The destructive capability of Kirin

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Itachi's Amaterasu devouring Sasuke's Katon

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Slaying the Dragon, defeating Kabuto's Sennin Mōdo​

In order for Kabuto to be able to keep up with Sasuke himself, he'll have no choice but to use his Sennin Mōdo. Now, let's look at Kabuto's arsenal while he is in Sennin Mōdo.

- Suika no Jutsu [Commonly known as the Hydration Technique]
- Sawarabi no Mai [Commonly known as the Dance of the Seedling Fern]
- Senpō: Muki Tensei
- Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu
- Mateki: Mugen Onsa [Commonly known as the Sound Genjutsu]
- Kumosōkai [Commonly known as the Spider Web Unrolling Technique]
- Regeneration
- Doton: Doroku Gaeshi [Commonly known as the Earth Release: Earth Shore Return]

Now let me establish why exactly none of these techniques would prove to be a problem for Sasuke. I'll start off by countering the Suika no Jutsu which won't be helpful here at all. Amaterasu will be capable of burning and killing Kabuto even when he is using the Suika no Jutsu or Sasuke could simply use his Raiton affinity to electrocute Kabuto while he is in that state. The Sawaribi no Mai isn't any more helpful due to the fact that it has been shown that a Susano'o arm is capable of destroying the bones.

Itachi's version 2 Susano'o hand destroying Kimimaro's bones

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Senpō: Muki Tensei is basically useless as well due to the fact that the enviroment will return to it's original shape because of Amaterasu's heat. However Muki Tensei and Sawaribi no Mai can be used to attack Sasuke from beneath while Susano'o is activated. This would usually be a problem, but

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. Attacks from beneath won't work against Sasuke anymore.

The heat of Amaterasu making the enviroment changed by Muki Tensei return to it's original shape

Spoiler

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Kumosōkai would be countered by Sasuke in the same way it was countered in the manga; By

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. Or he could simply

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.

The Mugen Onsa might be a problem, but Sasuke can still break out of it. Shikamaru managed to break Tayuya's Mugen Onsa by breaking his finger with a shadow. So Mugen Onsa can be broken by inflicting pain to yourself. In the manga, we have seen that even while Mugen Onsa is activated,

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. With that being said, Sasuke would be capable of using Susano'o, Enton, Amaterasu, etc. even while Mugen Onsa is activated. Now how can this help Sasuke? While it's true that Sasuke's real body won't be able to move due to Tayuya's Genjutsu,

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and since the Genjutsu won't be affecting the Susano'o, he'll have no trouble moving around in it. If Sasuke wants to break out of the Genjutsu,

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break his finger which will break him out of it.

As for Mugen Onsa, h mmmmm, that may be true, but Amaterasu can be used here by simply using a miniature Amaterasu on himself in order to inflict pain to himself and then he can simply put it out later.

Shikamaru breaking his finger with a shadow in order to get out of Mugen Onsa

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The Doton: Doroku Gaeshi isn't really a threat here since all it does is change the ground a little and all Sasuke has to do in order to escape it is use Susano'o, or

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or

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.

The only thing left to counter is the Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu which isn't hard at all. Before it even does anything,

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which Sasuke can destroy with Amaterasu so Hakugeki won't even be effective here or if he doesn't do it, all he has to do is activate the Susano'o with legs and if he wants to, he can cover it with Enton.

Itachi activating and using Susano'o while Hakugeki is activated

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Nagato, you're next. =]

 

[KidGamer65]

Your counter for Mugen Onsa doesn't work since they can't use Susanoo while under its effects, hence it dissipating once they were hit. [

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]

Itachi was only able to activate Susanoo due to being an Edo, meaning he can tolerate the pain much better than Sasuke, who is in a living body, though destroying it before it goes off works as well.

I agree on everything else. Nice job.

 

[Penguin]

Not a bad thread. I bet you fap over this thread daily though. :leaf:

 

[Shura]

Your counter for Mugen Onsa doesn't work since they can't use Susanoo while under its effects, hence it dissipating once they were hit. [

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]

Itachi was only able to activate Susanoo due to being an Edo, meaning he can tolerate the pain much better than Sasuke, who is in a living body, though destroying it before it goes off works as well.

I agree on everything else. Nice job.

Thanks, but I'll have to disagree a little bit. >_>

Itachi activated Susano'o in order to save Sasuke because he predicted that Kabuto was going to attack Sasuke. [

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] Itachi can experience pain just like Sasuke despite being an Edo Tensei, but if he can tolerate pain better than Sasuke and how much better, I'm not sure honestly. Anyways, since Sasuke has knowledge on it, he'll simply get rid of it with Amaterasu or he'll activate Susano'o before the orb explodes and releases the light and the sound.

As for Mugen Onsa, h mmmmm, that may be true, but Amaterasu can be used here by simply using a miniature Amaterasu on himself in order to inflict pain to himself and then he can simply put it out later.

Not a bad thread. I bet you fap over this thread daily though. :leaf:

Fapdeed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Thanks, but I'll have to disagree a little bit. >_>

Itachi activated Susano'o in order to save Sasuke because he predicted that Kabuto was going to attack Sasuke. [

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] Itachi can experience pain just like Sasuke despite being an Edo Tensei, but if he can tolerate pain better than Sasuke and how much better, I'm not sure honestly. Anyways, since Sasuke has knowledge on it, he'll simply get rid of it with Amaterasu or he'll activate Susano'o before the orb explodes and releases the light and the sound.

We don't know how much, but its clear he can tolerate it more hence him being able to use Susanoo while Sasuke couldn't. I agree that he can get rid of it beforehand like I said.

As for Mugen Onsa, h mmmmm, that may be true, but Amaterasu can be used here by simply using a miniature Amaterasu on himself in order to inflict pain to himself and then he can simply put it out later.

I guess I can agree here.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Lol did u just limited kabuto a fight an a Organic location: come on

 

[Shura]

Lol did u just limited kabuto a fight an a Organic location: come on

Lol? I didn't put them in a cave. That's all. >_>

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Grassy area is hey organic location meaning has an organic reanimation jutsu being completely useless here

 

[Shura]

Grassy area is hey organic location meaning has an organic reanimation jutsu being completely useless here

Do you want me to change the location then? ._.

 

[KidGamer65]

Don't even know why Muki Tensei is a factor in this fight. Its not getting past Susanoo and Amaterasu already made it useless.

 

[Prince Charles]

I dont see how a grassy plain is a restriction for Muki tensei, the grass itself can't be manipulated but the underground via rocks and dirt and etc.. should be manipulated.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

if what you said is true then expect a counter tomorrow when I'm off

 

[Awkward Linguist]

Never thought i'd say this; well done man.

 

[Shura]

Never thought i'd say this; well done man.

Thanks. ^_^

@Ej. Bring it. :heh:

 

[Bieber]

Good job AC and the avatars are sick.

 

[Unorthodox]

once sasuke susanoo showed legs he was already above kabuto

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Before I start, I'm doing this just so Kabuto wouldn't be settle short in this match up here. In no way am I saying Sasuke cannot defeat Kabuto, but bringing an argument showing that Kabuto can still take up Current Sasuke as of now.

I'll start off with Sasuke's counter to the Chakura no Mesu [Which will not prove itself to be a threat to Sasuke]. We have already seen that in the manga, Itachi was able to counter the Chakura no Mesu with Sasuke's own Kusanagi. Sasuke would simply counter it in the same way and it's unlikely that Kabuto could manage to hit Sasuke with the Chakura no Mesu considering that

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without recieving a single scratch from any of them. Please keep in mind that

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and that

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. Furthermore, Sasuke was

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. All in all, Sasuke would be perfectly capable of keeping up with Kabuto in a Taijutsu match. Let's not forget that Sasuke could simply counter the Chakura no Mesu

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. Because of that, Kabuto won't be able to touch him anymore.

Agree, but what was the point of bringing that example with fodders? That example doesn't help against Sage Kabuto at all. In fact Kabuto was shown to make Sasuke

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,

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, look like a joke. But yea I agree, Sasuke needs to maintain Sussanoo, any low-level would be a fatal mistake for

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.

Itachi parrying against Kabuto's Chakura no Mesu with Sasuke's Kusanagi

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I know this is part of your first counter but I would like to single this point out, what Kabuto could of done IF he wanted to. And that is using his snake to support him CQC.[

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]. If encountering CQC becomes a hassle to deal with aka Taijutsu, he can make his snake strike while he fights too, so in the end Sasuke needs his Sussanoo.

Sen'ei Tajashu will not be a problem either since Sasuke would counter it

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just like he did in the manga. Now the only problematic snake Kabuto has left in his arsenal is Manda 2, but due to Sasuke possessing the Sharingan, getting rid off Manda 2 won't be hard. Summoning the Manda 2 would help Sasuke since he can simply use his Genjutsu to control the Manda 2 just like he did with the original Manda. This would mean that Sasuke would have two summonings on his side which happen to be his own Aoda and Kabuto's Manda 2.
Sasuke using Genjutsu to control the original Manda

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That jutsu was not necessary to bring out anyway as it was meant for capturing purposes not killing. As for Manda 2, would be unnessary to bring out unless he really needs to be on par on Sasuke via Perfect Sussanoo. But lets take your counter for a sec. Here [

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]. Here you see Kabuto preventing Genjutsu here and what does he do? He let his snakes stare at them instead. Kabuto modify his own snakes to deal with genjtusu. like here [

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], meaning this applies to Manda 2 since he was modify, which Kabuto says [

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]. Not once in the manga they Itach and Sasuke were able to get through Kabuto's snakes through genjtusu. Not to mention all snakes can do this to their eyes [

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]. With manga knowledge this isn't happening at all.

Kabuto's Suiton affinity will not be a problem here since it can be countered in multiple ways. The first way would be

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. The second way would be using his Raiton on Kabuto's Suiton which will electrocute Kabuto himself due to the fact that

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. And the third and last way would simply be putting up the Susano'o ribcage which would tank it easily since even a Chou Ōdama Rasengan couldn't put a scratch on it.

The Susano'o Ribcage tanking the Chou Ōdama Rasengan

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Lol lets be serious here Sasuke Fire will not be beating Kabuto's Suiton with fire. Not only is Suiton inferior but it gets boost with Senjutsu. Kabuto only needs to use Suiton when Katon is involved. Sasuke lost his curse of seal so in no way would his Fire Release will be boost like he had when he was Hebi. Your making it seem like Kabuto has to listen to the response of Lightening Release. Any Lightening Release attack can be dodged from Kabuto, which already happen in the manga.

With that being said, the only problem left is the Orochimaru-Ryū no Kawarimi no Jutsu which is countered by Sasuke's Amaterasu. Usually the Orochimaru-Ryū no Kawarimi no Jutsu would be used to counter Amaterasu, but not this time. Once Amaterasu hits Kabuto,

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and then by focusing his eye on it, he can make it devour Kabuto's body in order to kill him just like Itachi's Amaterasu did to Sasuke's flames. Of course, if Kabuto by some chance manages to get out of the old body, Sasuke can simply manipulate the Amaterasu using the Enton in order for it to go to Kabuto's new body and envelope it as well. Another simple counter would be using his Enton Blade to cut Kabuto's head off and I don't believe that Kabuto has shown the ability to survive that. If anything else fails, Sasuke can simply abuse his Amaterasu in order to prepare Kirin and once it is prepared, it will destroy Kabuto's body completely. Please keep in mind that it won't be hard for Sasuke to gather thunder clouds since

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and Katon heat combination was capable of doing so.

The destructive capability of Kirin

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Itachi's Amaterasu devouring Sasuke's Katon

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I want to clear something up. Amaterasu "expanding" had a reason behind it. Amaterasu targets its enemy by its line of sight. The reason why it was big and devour Sasuke's Katon was because the line of sigh of the fire was large. The same applies when Sasuke Amaterasu spawn to Killer Bee here [

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]. To officially confirm it being true, look at Amaterasu line of sigh against big webs [

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]. Then look at it against Raikage, Danzo (dont need scans you get it). NOW the most important one: If expanding it a will was possible he would of not need Naruto at all to enlarge it against Juubi. That also would of benefit him more if that was possible, against

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.

But lets say Kabuto does get caught. That does not matter due to the fluids he created from his body He doesn't nessary need a new body but "

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" with his fluids. He does not need to completely liquify just the first layer of his skin is necessary. Here is proof of how he was the control his fluid manipulation [

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]

To prevent Karin from happening is to use Doton:Earth Shore to shift the plates to remove the Black Flames on the ground, like in the manga. And Katon<Suiton when to wash away the heat producing it.

Now let me establish why exactly none of these techniques would prove to be a problem for Sasuke. I'll start off by countering the Suika no Jutsu which won't be helpful here at all. Amaterasu will be capable of burning and killing Kabuto even when he is using the Suika no Jutsu or Sasuke could simply use his Raiton affinity to electrocute Kabuto while he is in that state. The Sawaribi no Mai isn't any more helpful due to the fact that it has been shown that a Susano'o arm is capable of destroying the bones.

Itachi's version 2 Susano'o hand destroying Kimimaro's bones

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My previous mention something about "fluids" and I was talking about "Suika no Jutsu". DO NOT CALL Kabuto's fluids "Suika no Jutsu". Lets read the context again [

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]. Kabuto said its ability to transform the body "INTO A LIQUID FORM". It was never stated what liquid form Kabuto uses. To understand the context as a whole, read what Kabuto said right after. "I use MY BODY FLUID <--- To perform it". Which means its something else. For all we known this liquid is unconductible, since not every liquid is conductible. For all we know the fluids can handle Amatersu heat. The next panel says, Kabuto researched and ALTERNATE his own version. Now to conclude this part is distinguishing "WATER" to Kabuto's "FLUIDS" the last context of Kabuto's source. "Dont you know him, too? it's Sugetsu. He (Sugetsu)<----- can transform into water...." That said Kabuto's Fuilds can work better then the houzuki clan, even countering it's weak points.

You also mention Seed Fern jutsu. I disagree with the Sussanoo arm breaking it. The jutsu was boost with senjutsu so my bet was that Itachi replied on Totsuka Blade. That scan is unclear what he did since he the sceen panel cut off of what he used. But from that view angle shows that he needed to stretch out and reach it all, thus I believe it was Tosuka. The only evidence I have is that the flow of chakra looked like the Sake flow from under Sussanoo arm. I will wait for the anime to come out to see officially but I can guaranteed it wasnt his arm because of the motion of that swing in that scan. In the end Sasuke needs his Sussanoo legs or he is done for.

Senpō: Muki Tensei is basically useless as well due to the fact that the enviroment will return to it's original shape because of Amaterasu's heat. However Muki Tensei and Sawaribi no Mai can be used to attack Sasuke from beneath while Susano'o is activated. This would usually be a problem, but

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. Attacks from beneath won't work against Sasuke anymore.

The heat of Amaterasu making the enviroment changed by Muki Tensei return to it's original shape

Spoiler

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Agree. But I won't settle Muki Tensei for short. As long as Kabuto welds Doton. He can shift the plates to remove the black flames that is disrupting the Muki Tensei control. [

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] [

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]. Everything else I agree, that leg feat saved him alot.

Kumosōkai would be countered by Sasuke in the same way it was countered in the manga; By

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. Or he could simply

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.

True, but what is dangerous about Kabuto is that he can multi task the sound 5 jutsu. It was commented by Sasuke himself [

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] (He Even.... Behind US!). So in the end it still has its usefulness to trap Sasuke and finishing him off with other jutsus.

The Mugen Onsa might be a problem, but Sasuke can still break out of it. Shikamaru managed to break Tayuya's Mugen Onsa by breaking his finger with a shadow. So Mugen Onsa can be broken by inflicting pain to yourself. In the manga, we have seen that even while Mugen Onsa is activated,

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. With that being said, Sasuke would be capable of using Susano'o, Enton, Amaterasu, etc. even while Mugen Onsa is activated. Now how can this help Sasuke? While it's true that Sasuke's real body won't be able to move due to Tayuya's Genjutsu,

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and since the Genjutsu won't be affecting the Susano'o, he'll have no trouble moving around in it. If Sasuke wants to break out of the Genjutsu,

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break his finger which will break him out of it.
Shikamaru breaking his finger with a shadow in order to get out of Mugen Onsa

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What you dont get is that every jutsu is boost with Senjutsu [

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]. This means that the counters it previously had is not the same when it is boost. If this was true then Sasuke and Itachi could of done it already. The method of breaking out is canon already. To beat this Genjutsu is beat with another Genjtusu. Then you need a Partner to put you in a Genjtusu, so he can break you out [

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]. Nice try but once Sasuke gets caught he is done for.

The Doton: Doroku Gaeshi isn't really a threat here since all it does is change the ground a little and all Sasuke has to do in order to escape it is use Susano'o, or

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or

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.

True. The jutsu is more defensive then offensive use. But like I said before every jutsu is boost with Senjutsu. And since Kabuto has access to ALL Sound 5 Jutsu, he can use ALL the earth jutsu's of Jirobo. If Sasuke goes for flight means he will lack Sussanoo coverage thus Hakugeki can take him out. But what Kabuto can do if on ground is to use Dorō Dōmu. The justu is able to absorb chakra inside the prison, and since Senjutsu is boosting it, this jutsu is alot stronger in use. Sasuke has never encounter this jutsu, meaning once he is trap, his chakra get absorbed. And eventually loses.

The only thing left to counter is the Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu which isn't hard at all. Before it even does anything,

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which Sasuke can destroy with Amaterasu so Hakugeki won't even be effective here or if he doesn't do it, all he has to do is activate the Susano'o with legs and if he wants to, he can cover it with Enton.

Itachi activating and using Susano'o while Hakugeki is activated

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Dragon was made up of the fluids I explained previously, as long as it protects the orb that jutsu can still work. Thus gg for Sasuke. You have to take two things into consideration. How did Sasuke not countering it then but Itachi did? The answer is simple Itachi's body is Kinjutsu. Now do I have to explain how different a Kinjutsu body is? I know you already know about this via Sasor via Kakuzu. Itachis body is not the same flesh as regular human. He can hear and he can see. But what is dangerous about this jutsu is the side effect that Sasuke, the only fleshly person here, had to say [

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] "I feel like my bones are..."

So yea =) gn for now >=)

 

[ItachiStillSolos]

Amaterasu is not a counter for Tayuya's Genjutsu. Not only will his own black flames not harm himself, but pain would have to be made constant to withstand Tayuya's Genjutsu. Not only that but he has no counter for white rage.

There is too much speculation in this thread.