DemonicAvenger
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The Title is an attention getter. Apparently you Narutobase-ees like these threads.
In this thread I will show how Naruto is superior to Edo Madara. This thread is not like Negative Knight's where he shows both sides way of winning.
The sole purpose of this thread is to show Naruto > Edo Madara
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As with my post on the Itachi vs. Minato thread, I will break this down into Scenarios of Combat. The following Scenario's Assume that PIS/CIS is off, And that were fighting under Standard Conditions of Battle which I will now outline.
Both are Fresh and fully rested
Full Intel
Grassy Plain
30 Meters Distance
These are the Scenarios of Battle that I will outline
-CQC
-Mid Range
-Long Range
-Extra Bits
Vocabulary:
RM or Rikudo Mode = KM, KCM, Kyuubi Mode
S-RM or Shin-Rikudo Mode = KM2 or KCM2
Shin-Susano'O = Perfect Susano'O
Biju Mode will be referred to as it is normally
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sealing is explained in the Extra Bits Section
CQC:
In CQC Naruto has a few notable advantages that would give Naruto the Edge in a Straight hand to hand fight. He even has the ability to make it through Susano'O to continue his assault on Madara.
Neither Combatant has an overwhelming lead in Taijutsu Skill. Madara took on Alliance members with Ease while Naruto has been trained in formal martial arts. Sharingan would undoubtably give Naruto Headaches, but the is remidied by Rikudo Mode or Shin-Rikudo Mode Kage Bunshin and a Shunshin that escapes even Madara's eyes. There are three main focal points to Naruto CQC hand to hand offence.
- His Chakra Enhanced Punch that Knocked away Bijudamas
- Kage Bunshin Shenanigans
- Kurama's Ability to break Naruto out of Genjutsu
If Madara is inside his Susano'O (Bar Shin-Susano'O) Naruto is Capable of Breaking threw with his Chakra Enhanced punch. These can be done in succesion to ensure that he gets through without a hitch. Naruto from here only needs to land one of these Chakra enhanced punches to put Madara in a dead state and proceed to seal. Naruto can easily accomplish this with even his Base Running speed as Madara is incapable isnt capable of putting distance between himself and Naruto. Naruto also has Chakra Limbs to land light blows on Madara, As Chakra limbs arnt subject to Sharingan pre-cog. The trickies part of this is watching for Preta Path. Naruto has two ways to deal with this.
- Timing his punch very carefully in a position where Madara isn't using Preta Path (Possibly with Shunshin or in tandum with his Kage Bunshin
- Sage Kage Bunshin
A sage Kage Bunshin would completely bypass Preta Path with the Shock Wave of its Punch. Preta Path would also become a hinderance if Madara starts to Absorb Senjutsu Chakra.
Naruto may have to deal with Moku Bunshin while in CQC. These would be dealt with By Sage Kage Bunshin or by S-RM Kage Bunshin. Sage Clones could grab hold of them (even if they are in Susano'O) and use their physical strength to toss them away from the battlefield similar to how Naruto tossed the Rhino Summon in the Pain fight.
Naruto (or any Kage Bunshin in an RM mode) can force the fight into a CQC fight with Shunshin.
Madara will be disarmed of his fan if he chooses to defend against Naruto's Taijutsu.
Any Attempt at Genjutsu will end in Failure due to Kurama being able to free Naruto relatively easily. Also, if Madara targets the Kage Bunshin, then the attempt will be for naught and be wasted as Kage Bunshin arn't affected by genjutsu.
Mid-Range:
At Mid-Range Naruto has quite a few more things to worry about than if the fight was up close, But being at Mid-Range also opens up some new doors for Naruto that would arguably make him more deadly and force the fight in his favor.
Naruto now has to worry about:
-MokuRyu
-Shin-Susano'O
Naruto can now use:
-Biju Mode
-Bijudama (and variants)
MokuBunshin would be a contiued worry here. Naruto has the options of letting his Kage Bunshin continue to combat them(he needs them less now that hes has some distance) or he can pull Onoki's Trick but this time with Bijudama. Although the previous method is perfered and more reliable.
Putting Madara in a dead State is accomplish-able in a word. Bijudama. Bijudama has enough chakra to overload Preta path and put Madara's Edo Tensei Body in a "dead" state. If Madara is in Shin-Susano'O then Continous Bijudama, Flash Bijudama, or Perfect Bijudama (the Bijudama that Naruto and Killer Bee used against the Juubi in vain) to achieve the same effect.
Please Refer to the post in the Spoiler for an explanation to Edo Tensei's Chakra features and how much preta is able to absorb
Edo Tensei Chakra:
When Madara was Freed from the Edo Tensei Covenant he Stated that Edo Tensei's have and Infinte Amount of Chakra. People have Taken this to mean that And Shinobi Resurected With Edo Tensei can Spam Jutsu's and make them much more powerful that they normally would.
This is False, While The Edo Tensei Bodies do have an unlimited amount of Resouces from which to make chakra they cannot Knead or release more chakra than there body could before resurection (or however much their body could in the state it was ressurected in.
I Base this on The Fact that Muu was incapable of Using Jinton after being split.
After Being Split the amount of chakra he could release/Knead was effectivly cut in half.
Further Proof on the fact that only a certain amount of chakra can be kneaded/Released by any certain person is proven by Naruto's Learning of the Rasengan. He had to Train his Chakra Ciculatory System to Knead more chakra and Also be able to release and sustain more chakra (the Second Step of the Training is an excellent example)
So In conclusion, Yes Edo Tensei Bodies have the Resouces to Continously Make Chakra, Yet the ninja Cannot Knead/Release more chakra than when they could in their life.
References:
Preta Path:
Preta Path has the ability to Abosorb Ninjutsu and Render them useless. This is done by taking in the Chakra and spinning the chakra until it is steralized (this is stated in the databook but i couldn't find the page to save my life) The Chakra does not go to the Preta path users chakra reservers but instead literally becomes nothing (for the lack of a better of a better way to put it)
I find that this is done by opening the Tenketsu and allowing the jutsu to flow into the user's Chakra Ciruclatory system (The opposite of Kaiten in a way) The Chakra is then Spun until it becomes sterile.
Now there's Two Factors that dictate how much the user can Absorb and how fast they can absorb it.
1. The Amount of Chakra that the User can Knead/Release
2. The User's Skill in Chakra Control
The Amount of Chakra that the User Can Knead/Release Dictates the amount of Chakra that The user of Preta Path can allow into their Chakra System at one time. Chakra being absorbed must be spun and sterilized to allow more to enter the system, This is where the User's Skill in Chakra Controll comes into play. The user's Chakra Control Dicates the Speed at which they can spin the absorbed chakra and therfore means that the better chakra control they have the faster they sterilize the absorbed chakra. The Use of the Barrier when using Preta Path means that the user has either worse Chakra control or cannot Knead/Release as much Chakra as one that does not have to use the barrier. Meaning that the path that used preta in the six paths of Pain cannot absorb as much chakra as Madara or Nagato.
References:
By my own Opinions, Calculations, and Assumptions on the above i will give what i believe to be the end of the "Preta vs Bijudama" Debate.
This is done from the persepctive that the Preta user is standing still with absolutly nothing in the way of Bijudama, This is purely Preta vs. Bijudama (single form, Not any of the higher versions)
Path that used Preta in the Six paths of Pain: Would be able to absorb a decent chunk of Bijudama but would it would be in futility, The likes of this path body will never be found again.
Madara: Would be Able to Absorb a very large Chunk of it. But this would also not be enough to survive. Madara's Edo Body is Going to Need a Few Minutes to Regerate.
Nagato: Nagato would be able to absorb almost the entire Bijudama. The Result after the clash would be Nagato absorbing just enough to allow him to tank what was left of it. Leaving him With Serious Burns, Scrapes, Fractured bones, and just genrally beat up.
*Note: Perfect Bijudama can be accomplished by using a BM Kage Bunshin in the Place of Bee, although this Jutsu is not required.
At this Range, Madara would likely decide to use Shin-Susano'O. Naruto has a multitude of ways to counter just about anything that Madara can do in this form.
Naruto is capable of compleletly shielding himself from Perfect Susano'O's Slash by covering himself in his chakra tails. These Tails were able to block the Juubi's weakend laser Bijudama and no harm came to Naruto. The Perfect Susano'O's Slash would be largely ineffective and cause almost no damage to Naruto, While Naruto is capable of putting Perfect Susano'O and Madara out of commision with Continous Bijudama or Flash Bijudama.
Naruto can also help enlist the help of Gamabunta and his cohorts against Perfect Susano'O or Help tidy up the battlefield against the MokuBunshin. Ma and Pa are a focal point of actually beating Madara as Naruto has to Land Gama Ranbu to win this fight. This can be done before or after Madara is put into a "Dead" State.
Essentially when Gama Ranbu lands, Its GG Madara.
Naruto at this range also has to worry about MokuRyu, as its the only Mokuton that will be capable of Restraining BM. Naruto has a few options when dealing with this. He can..
A) Use Bijudama or some other Jutsu to destroy it
B) If he happens to be captured by it, he can do what he did previously and use ShunShin to escape.
Although B will probably wont be needed as Naruto has full intel in this situation and will know to destroy the Dragon before it gets close.
Long Range:
This is where Madara is put at the biggest Disadvantage. At this range projectiles are the only thing worth while and Madara is sorely outmatched here.
All Madara has to rely on is his Shin Susano'O Slashes, Which Naruto is already capable or overpowering or blocking at Mid-Range.
Other Bits:
- Naruto can neutralize any of Madara's Katons with his RM or S-RM Cloak.
- Naruto can seal Madara with the following method: After Madara has been caught by Gama Ranbu, Ma and Pa can then Reverse Summon him to mount myoboku. From there they will drop him in the toad oil which will force him to absorb Senjutsu and turn to stone. Since he's not experiencing pain, he will not break from the Genjutsu as a result of this.
- Amaterasu is Dodged by ShunShin
- Tsukyomi is broken by Kurama (assuming he hasn't mastered it at the level Itachi has)
- Shinra Tensei Gaps can be taken advantage of by Shunshin
- Human Path would be overcome by the combined effort of Naruto and Kurama
- Asura Path is Tanked with Cloak, similar to Madara's Katon
- Animal Path is countered by Gama Kuchiyose
*added a few things to the extra bits sections. I'll update the thread and integrate these later
In this thread I will show how Naruto is superior to Edo Madara. This thread is not like Negative Knight's where he shows both sides way of winning.
The sole purpose of this thread is to show Naruto > Edo Madara
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As with my post on the Itachi vs. Minato thread, I will break this down into Scenarios of Combat. The following Scenario's Assume that PIS/CIS is off, And that were fighting under Standard Conditions of Battle which I will now outline.
Both are Fresh and fully rested
Full Intel
Grassy Plain
30 Meters Distance
These are the Scenarios of Battle that I will outline
-CQC
-Mid Range
-Long Range
-Extra Bits
Vocabulary:
RM or Rikudo Mode = KM, KCM, Kyuubi Mode
S-RM or Shin-Rikudo Mode = KM2 or KCM2
Shin-Susano'O = Perfect Susano'O
Biju Mode will be referred to as it is normally
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sealing is explained in the Extra Bits Section
CQC:
In CQC Naruto has a few notable advantages that would give Naruto the Edge in a Straight hand to hand fight. He even has the ability to make it through Susano'O to continue his assault on Madara.
Neither Combatant has an overwhelming lead in Taijutsu Skill. Madara took on Alliance members with Ease while Naruto has been trained in formal martial arts. Sharingan would undoubtably give Naruto Headaches, but the is remidied by Rikudo Mode or Shin-Rikudo Mode Kage Bunshin and a Shunshin that escapes even Madara's eyes. There are three main focal points to Naruto CQC hand to hand offence.
- His Chakra Enhanced Punch that Knocked away Bijudamas
- Kage Bunshin Shenanigans
- Kurama's Ability to break Naruto out of Genjutsu
If Madara is inside his Susano'O (Bar Shin-Susano'O) Naruto is Capable of Breaking threw with his Chakra Enhanced punch. These can be done in succesion to ensure that he gets through without a hitch. Naruto from here only needs to land one of these Chakra enhanced punches to put Madara in a dead state and proceed to seal. Naruto can easily accomplish this with even his Base Running speed as Madara is incapable isnt capable of putting distance between himself and Naruto. Naruto also has Chakra Limbs to land light blows on Madara, As Chakra limbs arnt subject to Sharingan pre-cog. The trickies part of this is watching for Preta Path. Naruto has two ways to deal with this.
- Timing his punch very carefully in a position where Madara isn't using Preta Path (Possibly with Shunshin or in tandum with his Kage Bunshin
- Sage Kage Bunshin
A sage Kage Bunshin would completely bypass Preta Path with the Shock Wave of its Punch. Preta Path would also become a hinderance if Madara starts to Absorb Senjutsu Chakra.
Naruto may have to deal with Moku Bunshin while in CQC. These would be dealt with By Sage Kage Bunshin or by S-RM Kage Bunshin. Sage Clones could grab hold of them (even if they are in Susano'O) and use their physical strength to toss them away from the battlefield similar to how Naruto tossed the Rhino Summon in the Pain fight.
Naruto (or any Kage Bunshin in an RM mode) can force the fight into a CQC fight with Shunshin.
Madara will be disarmed of his fan if he chooses to defend against Naruto's Taijutsu.
Any Attempt at Genjutsu will end in Failure due to Kurama being able to free Naruto relatively easily. Also, if Madara targets the Kage Bunshin, then the attempt will be for naught and be wasted as Kage Bunshin arn't affected by genjutsu.
Mid-Range:
At Mid-Range Naruto has quite a few more things to worry about than if the fight was up close, But being at Mid-Range also opens up some new doors for Naruto that would arguably make him more deadly and force the fight in his favor.
Naruto now has to worry about:
-MokuRyu
-Shin-Susano'O
Naruto can now use:
-Biju Mode
-Bijudama (and variants)
MokuBunshin would be a contiued worry here. Naruto has the options of letting his Kage Bunshin continue to combat them(he needs them less now that hes has some distance) or he can pull Onoki's Trick but this time with Bijudama. Although the previous method is perfered and more reliable.
Putting Madara in a dead State is accomplish-able in a word. Bijudama. Bijudama has enough chakra to overload Preta path and put Madara's Edo Tensei Body in a "dead" state. If Madara is in Shin-Susano'O then Continous Bijudama, Flash Bijudama, or Perfect Bijudama (the Bijudama that Naruto and Killer Bee used against the Juubi in vain) to achieve the same effect.
Please Refer to the post in the Spoiler for an explanation to Edo Tensei's Chakra features and how much preta is able to absorb
Edo Tensei Chakra:
When Madara was Freed from the Edo Tensei Covenant he Stated that Edo Tensei's have and Infinte Amount of Chakra. People have Taken this to mean that And Shinobi Resurected With Edo Tensei can Spam Jutsu's and make them much more powerful that they normally would.
This is False, While The Edo Tensei Bodies do have an unlimited amount of Resouces from which to make chakra they cannot Knead or release more chakra than there body could before resurection (or however much their body could in the state it was ressurected in.
I Base this on The Fact that Muu was incapable of Using Jinton after being split.
After Being Split the amount of chakra he could release/Knead was effectivly cut in half.
Further Proof on the fact that only a certain amount of chakra can be kneaded/Released by any certain person is proven by Naruto's Learning of the Rasengan. He had to Train his Chakra Ciculatory System to Knead more chakra and Also be able to release and sustain more chakra (the Second Step of the Training is an excellent example)
So In conclusion, Yes Edo Tensei Bodies have the Resouces to Continously Make Chakra, Yet the ninja Cannot Knead/Release more chakra than when they could in their life.
References:
Madara's Statement on Edo Tensei:
Muu's Edo Body Failing to use Jinton:
Naruto's Rasengan Training:
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Muu's Edo Body Failing to use Jinton:
You must be registered for see links
Naruto's Rasengan Training:
You must be registered for see links
Preta Path:
Preta Path has the ability to Abosorb Ninjutsu and Render them useless. This is done by taking in the Chakra and spinning the chakra until it is steralized (this is stated in the databook but i couldn't find the page to save my life) The Chakra does not go to the Preta path users chakra reservers but instead literally becomes nothing (for the lack of a better of a better way to put it)
I find that this is done by opening the Tenketsu and allowing the jutsu to flow into the user's Chakra Ciruclatory system (The opposite of Kaiten in a way) The Chakra is then Spun until it becomes sterile.
Now there's Two Factors that dictate how much the user can Absorb and how fast they can absorb it.
1. The Amount of Chakra that the User can Knead/Release
2. The User's Skill in Chakra Control
The Amount of Chakra that the User Can Knead/Release Dictates the amount of Chakra that The user of Preta Path can allow into their Chakra System at one time. Chakra being absorbed must be spun and sterilized to allow more to enter the system, This is where the User's Skill in Chakra Controll comes into play. The user's Chakra Control Dicates the Speed at which they can spin the absorbed chakra and therfore means that the better chakra control they have the faster they sterilize the absorbed chakra. The Use of the Barrier when using Preta Path means that the user has either worse Chakra control or cannot Knead/Release as much Chakra as one that does not have to use the barrier. Meaning that the path that used preta in the six paths of Pain cannot absorb as much chakra as Madara or Nagato.
References:
Pain's Preta Path:
Nagato using Preta Path:
Madara Using Preta Path:
You must be registered for see links
Nagato using Preta Path:
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Madara Using Preta Path:
You must be registered for see links
By my own Opinions, Calculations, and Assumptions on the above i will give what i believe to be the end of the "Preta vs Bijudama" Debate.
This is done from the persepctive that the Preta user is standing still with absolutly nothing in the way of Bijudama, This is purely Preta vs. Bijudama (single form, Not any of the higher versions)
Path that used Preta in the Six paths of Pain: Would be able to absorb a decent chunk of Bijudama but would it would be in futility, The likes of this path body will never be found again.
Madara: Would be Able to Absorb a very large Chunk of it. But this would also not be enough to survive. Madara's Edo Body is Going to Need a Few Minutes to Regerate.
Nagato: Nagato would be able to absorb almost the entire Bijudama. The Result after the clash would be Nagato absorbing just enough to allow him to tank what was left of it. Leaving him With Serious Burns, Scrapes, Fractured bones, and just genrally beat up.
*Note: Perfect Bijudama can be accomplished by using a BM Kage Bunshin in the Place of Bee, although this Jutsu is not required.
At this Range, Madara would likely decide to use Shin-Susano'O. Naruto has a multitude of ways to counter just about anything that Madara can do in this form.
Naruto is capable of compleletly shielding himself from Perfect Susano'O's Slash by covering himself in his chakra tails. These Tails were able to block the Juubi's weakend laser Bijudama and no harm came to Naruto. The Perfect Susano'O's Slash would be largely ineffective and cause almost no damage to Naruto, While Naruto is capable of putting Perfect Susano'O and Madara out of commision with Continous Bijudama or Flash Bijudama.
Naruto can also help enlist the help of Gamabunta and his cohorts against Perfect Susano'O or Help tidy up the battlefield against the MokuBunshin. Ma and Pa are a focal point of actually beating Madara as Naruto has to Land Gama Ranbu to win this fight. This can be done before or after Madara is put into a "Dead" State.
Essentially when Gama Ranbu lands, Its GG Madara.
Naruto at this range also has to worry about MokuRyu, as its the only Mokuton that will be capable of Restraining BM. Naruto has a few options when dealing with this. He can..
A) Use Bijudama or some other Jutsu to destroy it
B) If he happens to be captured by it, he can do what he did previously and use ShunShin to escape.
Although B will probably wont be needed as Naruto has full intel in this situation and will know to destroy the Dragon before it gets close.
Long Range:
This is where Madara is put at the biggest Disadvantage. At this range projectiles are the only thing worth while and Madara is sorely outmatched here.
All Madara has to rely on is his Shin Susano'O Slashes, Which Naruto is already capable or overpowering or blocking at Mid-Range.
Other Bits:
- Naruto can neutralize any of Madara's Katons with his RM or S-RM Cloak.
- Naruto can seal Madara with the following method: After Madara has been caught by Gama Ranbu, Ma and Pa can then Reverse Summon him to mount myoboku. From there they will drop him in the toad oil which will force him to absorb Senjutsu and turn to stone. Since he's not experiencing pain, he will not break from the Genjutsu as a result of this.
- Amaterasu is Dodged by ShunShin
- Tsukyomi is broken by Kurama (assuming he hasn't mastered it at the level Itachi has)
- Shinra Tensei Gaps can be taken advantage of by Shunshin
- Human Path would be overcome by the combined effort of Naruto and Kurama
- Asura Path is Tanked with Cloak, similar to Madara's Katon
- Animal Path is countered by Gama Kuchiyose
*added a few things to the extra bits sections. I'll update the thread and integrate these later
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