Establishing why Madara is not stronger than Naruto or Sasuke's strongest forms

RasenUchihaChaos

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Deny Salvation

"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening. His ilk serves no role in what is to come. Only death will staunch the flood of destruction... a task still far beyond your means."
 

Selan

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Kakashi solos. Ty and please don't stay mad accept the manga canon.
 

xxSAGExx

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No, Hagoromo gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra amount. That means nothing left once its gone.
Hagoromo's chakra is formed from Yin-Yang, there's no splitting it, and he stated that he'd give them his Chakra. Yin and Yang=Hagoromo's chakra, they were given his chakra thus they have his Yin-Yang.
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Once again, we are talking about half of his chakra amount/reserves. Not half of the make-up of his chakra.

Also, Naruto said the other half of his power, not chakra.
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Other half of Sage's power is Rinnegan.

The DB states that Naruto uses Yin-Yang Release which is a product of Hagoromo's chakra. Sasuke has Rinnegan which is gained by getting Hagoromo's chakra, otherwise known as Yin and Yang. Without it you are left with only half of the equation thus no Rinnegan.
Madara's Juubi is also missing Kaguya and most of the worlds chakra. :)

Hagoromo was given chakra by Hashirama and the other Hokage's.
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There, right there. He stated that 'his chakra was already given away.' That leaves no room for an argument. Manga says it all. :)






Indeed, that's because Yin Kurama didn't give all his chakra away, just a bit of it. Whereas Hagoromo directly stated he'd give Sasuke and Naruto each half of his chakra amount and half of his power.

It was Kyuubi's chakra that was comparable to Hashirama, not Naruto's own.

Both parts of Kurama regain/regenerate chakra, so please stop this ridiculous charade.








My gosh, using Wikia like its a room of facts when they get plenty of things wrong. Not only that but they have a tendency of accepting certain parts of canon and ignoring others. Sure, I'll give you this one, but even if Hashirama compared all of that chakra that Naruto dealt out to the alliance to his own, that was Hashirama in base and without all of his chakra and no longer having Ashura within him.
Still implies Tailed Beast level reserves, in fact, I bet the other Beasts couldn't do that.





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'In other words, Ashura's chakra and Indra's chakra had been fused into one vessel. This ultimately led him to my chakra's power. It had awakened the Rinnegan.'

Indra's chakra equals Yin, and Ashura's chakra Yang, together, this creates Hagoromo's chakra and forms the Rinnegan.
Hagoromo stated that his chakra (Yin and Yang formed into one), creates the Rinnegan. That, my friend, is canon and backed up by Databook and is from the word of god, and has been stated and implied throughout the manga even before this.
Everything you said is fan-made and has no proof behind it. Sasuke's Rinnegan even if one eye was still superior to Madara's by a long shot and has a higher evolution.

Yes, Madara said that they have half of the Sage's power which is Rinnegan and RSM, not Yin and Yang, Senjutsu isn't even a Yang power considering its created by combining Yin and Yang (Spiritual and Physical energy) together with natural energy. You can't have Rikudou Senjutsu without Six Paths chakra which in the first place is the combination of Yin and Yang.

Sasuke and Naruto were granted powers directly from Hagoromo whereas Indra and Ashura inherited a downgraded version of his chakra and never had his true power or chakra. Well, Ashura was given power directly from Hagoromo at a much later date which he used in his battle against his brother (RSM).


No, Kaguya got her chakra from the Chakra Fruit, which is not the God Tree itself, and the Manga refers to Kaguya as the progenitor/originator of chakra, along with the Databook.
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From the Databook on Kaguya.
'Ever since "humans" were given form, they have fought each other and walked in a world of war. The earth was stained with blood, and as if it were absorbing that blood for nourishment, the Shinju took root in the earth. Eventually the Shinju bore a single fruit, and a certain clan came from another world seeking that fruit: the Otsutsuki clan. Kaguya, leader of the Otsutsuki, ate the fruit and became the progenitor of all chakra, and with her absolute power brought peace to the world in an instant.

After ending the turbulent era, she became known as the Rabbit Goddess and received the blessing of the people, giving birth to twins. But after that, Kaguya would occasionally use harsh means to rule the people as a dictator. The Byakugan, Sharingan, and Infinite Tsukuyomi - the people feared and respected the jutsu Kaguya wielded. Eventually, the "Rabbit Goddess" became known as a demon instead. And then, Kaguya became ruled by her desire to make all chakra her own.

To make all chakra one - Kaguya's desire eventually turned on Hagoromo and Hamura, her own twin sons with whom she had split her chakra. Kaguya formed a plan, and in order to take in all chakra, fused with the Shinju and battled against her twin sons.'

The Databook even refers to the Shinju and its fruit as different entities entirely.




Half of Hagoromo's chakra amount (half of Hagoromo's chakra amount still means half of the Yin-Yang chakra), not the make-up of his chakra. All three, Naruto, Sasuke and Madara all have Yin and Yang. Madara just got lucky and has both powers, RSM and Rinnegan. His RSM even came from the Juubi, not because of non-existent Yang connection/power that he already had when he stole Hashirama's cells who was alive at the time.
Databook even states Naruto has the Rikudou powers of Yin-Yang release which is Hagoromo's chakra.

Sasuke doesn't need to, he still showed Chibaku Tensei (a Ying Yang combining ability) and Petra Path, Madara showed only one also, does that mean he doesn't have them all? Just because Nagato showed all doesn't mean Madara can. Of course, Madara can use it, its not that much of a stretch, but there is such a thing as perhaps Nagato learnt those abilities because he had it longer and Madara didn't... :hmm:

It was mentioned that Naruto was on Hashirama's level before RSM, so no.


That later part is irrelevant.




You mean the chakra he had been using for hours on end right? He still had chakra left and showed no exhaustion, the reason why he needed the Bijuu was because Naruto was still simply stronger than him.
Nagato used one Chibaku tensei and nearly died. Sasuke used nine Chibaku Tensei's and didn't break a sweat. Before using Chibaku Tensei he had conjured PS several times; against Madara, and against Kaguya. Keep in mind he and Naruto had their chakra drained from them by both Kaguya & Black Zetsu; yet despite this Sasuke was able to fight Naruto soon afterwards for an entire day.

Naruto has more chakra because he has Nine Tailed beasts chakra plus his own and Hagoromo's.

Amenotejikara was stated to be a very draining technique, I don't know why you are bringing it up.



Why the **** are you still mentioning Naruto in this? The ****? What does Naruto using up more chakra then Sasuke have to do with Sasuke having Tailed Beast reserves right up there with Kurama?

All of those feats on Naruto's end was because of RSM and Hagoromo's power that was enhanced further by the Bijuu.

My ****ing gosh, you finally admitted Naruto has Yin-Yang release. Now please stop.




We do know how easily most of the other beasts were trampled on by Kurama and later we were shown Gyuki was definitely stronger but not by the ridiculous amount that Kurama was, then we were shown the extent of Gyuki's chakra which I will add pales in comparison to Kurama's which then pales in comparison to both Naruto's and Sasuke's.

You seem to have forgotten the team effort between Naruto and Sasuke with the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei that had so much power that it could even seal Kaguya.

Nagato had Bijuu reserves and he still could barely handle making one Chibaku Tensei (he used to have even more reserves but lost them to the Gedo Mazo).






Naruto's reserves are still higher even without the tailed beats, besides perhaps Kurama's own. Rikudou Senjutsu amps chakra further then the older one does, please note that Naruto also has the power to draw on all of the worlds natural energy which is more chakra than the Bijuu were shown to dish out.

It wont boost Sasuke since he doesn't have Hashirama cells (the moment when Kabuto healed him has been called into question and the actual proper translation makes no mention of giving Sasuke Hashirama's cells, rather Kabuto said he used his studies of Hashirama's DNA to heal Sasuke, and made no mention of actually implanting it).

As for Naruto, sure, it might give a slight boost but not all that much since his own cells are now superior considering he is Ashura's current Transmigrant.

You do know skilled ninjas can split chakra into Yin and Yang right? Example being Minato splitting Kurama into Yin Kurama and Yang Kurama yet both can use chakra. Hagoromo did this as well; there are ninjas with Yin or Yang or both, it's not only Hagoromo with it so Naruto using Yin and Yang doesn't mean it's from Hagoromo. Hagoromo split his chakra into Yin and Yang and gave Naruto his Yang chakra; Naruto had Yin Kurama which is Yin chakra. All chakra is form from Yin (spiritual energy) and Yang (physical energy), in this case Ashura and Indra chakra together created Hagoromo's chakra but Hagoromo himself already have this and can split it up. If Sasuke had both Yin and Yang then he would have both eyes with 6T but he doesn't.

Chakra is power, it can be use to reference power since the more chakra you have the more chakra you can focus in your jutsu and the stronger that jutsu is. I'm not talking about half of what makes up chakra, it's the same thing as Yin and Yang Kurama having chakra to use even though they are split off. If Sasuke and Naruto both had Yin and Yang chakra then both would have both Rinnegan and RSM but that's not the case. Madara absorbed Kaguya the moment he absorbed the God Tree; you don't actually need chakra from everyone; Kaguya past it to her sons so unless you're saying every ninjas come from Hagoromo and Hamura then the other ninjas got chakra themselves (it's said Hagoromo taught followers nishuu not gave them chakra. So Kaguya's own chakra is what the Juubi has which is what are in the Bijuus and Kaguya just further increased her chakra by taking more chakra from other ninjas.

Hagoromo said the jutsu requires a huge amount that he does not have anymore, that does not mean he is out of chakra, that means he doesn't have enough; example, if the jutsu requires 2000 and he only have 1000 then he doesn't have enough. The Yin Yang CT was used by the Sun and Moon seals that returned to Hagoromo so for all you know he only gave Naruto and Sasuke like 20-25% his chakra and used 50% (20-25% for each seal) since it returned back to Hagoromo. Are you not reading where I said the Bijuus have to actually focus to replenish their chakra fast? Yang Kurama showed this by placing his hands together as Naruto would do to gather natural energy or else it will replenish regularly as ninjas chakra does.

Your scan does not show Hagoromo specifically saying all his chakra just given them chakra, you're also forgetting that he got his seals back which is what was used to seal Kaguya so that chakra wasn't actually given to Sasuke and Naruto reserve wise. No Sasuke's eye is superior to a single Rinnegan but not both; the true power is awakened with both; manga fact stated for both the Sharingan and the Rinnegan. Nothing was stopping Madara after he got both of his Rinnegans and it too plot to take him down; even with 1 eye he has the power to kill both Naruto and Sasuke during the war. Sasuke gained better control over it in his battles, same would apply for Madara who instantly was able to use Obito's Kamui.

Sasuke was fighting all taijutsu for most of those hours with Naruto. So Nagato who split his chakra 1/7th (himself and his 6 Peins) used a ton of fighting ninjas in Konoha, then alright push (which drain life energy), and in his fight with Naruto is the one who used CT and said he could have made it bigger; add to the fact that he is in a weaken condition due to the chakra rods in his back. Also Nagato isn't the true holder of the eyes so he can't use it to the level as Madara would; Obito actually mentioned that he wasn't the Rinnegan's true holder. Yang is the power of physical energy and vitality which is a physical power up; Natural energy is energy that surrounds the planet and increases your physical capabilities.

Naruto's own chakra was low from fighting in the war, Yin Kurama told Naruto that so Naruto was only fighting with Yin Kurama and Hagoromo's Yang chakra while Sasuke had his and Hagomoro's. Naruto's chakra was actually absorbed by the God tree while Sasuke's was dropping due to dying but being healed should have reversed that at least some. Sasuke absorbed more chakra from the 9 Bijuus as Naruto got more natural energy. What does having Yin Yang have to do with anything that hurts my point? Yin Kurama has Yin chakra while Naruto was given Yang chakra from Hagoromo and did take Yang Kurama chakra after fighting him.

The Yin Yang Seal went back to Hagoromo which means that wasn't chakra tied to their reserves but chakra that Hagoromo had in the seals. Nagato used up most of his chakra at that point and in a weaken state, Sasuke was not in similar state plus his the true owner of his Rinnegan unlike Nagato.
 

Ootoriyu Jin

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How does one beat Immortality without the seals?
 
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Ootoriyu Jin

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current naruto and sasuke are stronger than madara if momoshiki is really stronger than kaguya
I'm pretty sure the Novel states that Momoshiki is confirmed to have a lower rank than Kaguya and was weaker. She wanted to gather all the Bijuus and make the Shinju and create the Chakra Fruit again to become imortal to take over what Kaguya couldn't achieve but failed badly without absorbing the Shinju
 

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You do know skilled ninjas can split chakra into Yin and Yang right? Example being Minato splitting Kurama into Yin Kurama and Yang Kurama yet both can use chakra. Hagoromo did this as well; there are ninjas with Yin or Yang or both, it's not only Hagoromo with it so Naruto using Yin and Yang doesn't mean it's from Hagoromo. Hagoromo split his chakra into Yin and Yang and gave Naruto his Yang chakra; Naruto had Yin Kurama which is Yin chakra. All chakra is form from Yin (spiritual energy) and Yang (physical energy), in this case Ashura and Indra chakra together created Hagoromo's chakra but Hagoromo himself already have this and can split it up. If Sasuke had both Yin and Yang then he would have both eyes with 6T but he doesn't.

Kurama isn't a human, he's a Bijuu, as for Minato, just because he can split a Bijuu's chakra doesn't mean that he can do that to himself or another Ninja.
Hagoromo didn't, he gave Naruto and Sasuke his chakra. His pure, undiluted chakra that he didn't split into the make-up of chakra.
No, Naruto using Yin and Yang doesn't mean that its from Hagoromo, however, Naruto using Yin-Yang release does. Yin-Yang release is a power attributed to Hagoromo and Hagoromo himself. Along with his mother of course....most likely anyway.

Naruto having Yin Kurama still wouldn't allow him to use COAT and to have the TSBs. You need Hagromo's Yin-Yang release to do that. Otherwise drawn from the Juubi (Hagoromo had those powers before being a Jin too).

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Yin-Yang Release. Six Paths.

The secret technique forming all creation out of nothingness and giving it life.

"Yin Release", which creates form out of nothingness and "Yang Release", which breathes life into form. The one with the skill to manipulate those two attributes in one, the Sage of Six Paths Hagoromo Otsutsuki, developed the "Creation of All Things Technique".
Naruto, who acquired Hagoromo's power (and chakra), demonstrates perfect [use?] of Yin-Yang Release.

Yin and Yang has nothing to do with having two Rinnegan's that's fanfic, what it does have to do with it is not having a Rinnegan at all if you don't have both to form Hagoromo's chakra. Sasuke's Rinnegan is much like the Rinnesharingan, a one eye'd Rinnegan with tomoe.
I guess Kaguya only has Yin since she only has one Rinnegan.....
:lmao:

Hagoromo's chakra is Yin and Yang in one, if he says he's giving someone his chakra, then he's ****ing well giving someone his chakra. Gosh you're....
I'm not going to finish that.


Chakra is power, it can be use to reference power since the more chakra you have the more chakra you can focus in your jutsu and the stronger that jutsu is. I'm not talking about half of what makes up chakra, it's the same thing as Yin and Yang Kurama having chakra to use even though they are split off. If Sasuke and Naruto both had Yin and Yang chakra then both would have both Rinnegan and RSM but that's not the case. Madara absorbed Kaguya the moment he absorbed the God Tree; you don't actually need chakra from everyone; Kaguya past it to her sons so unless you're saying every ninjas come from Hagoromo and Hamura then the other ninjas got chakra themselves (it's said Hagoromo taught followers nishuu not gave them chakra. So Kaguya's own chakra is what the Juubi has which is what are in the Bijuus and Kaguya just further increased her chakra by taking more chakra from other ninjas.

Half of chakra amount is not Yin and Yang, half of what creates the chakra in someone's coils is Yin and Yang however. For the last ****ing damn time, we are speaking about AMOUNT.
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For the last damn time, Rinnegan and RSM aren't separately Yin and Yang. Sage Mode is not a Yang power, it can only be formed from the combination of Yin (Spiritual Energy), Yang (Physical Energy) and Natural Energy in perfect balance. RSM is made from combining Six Paths chakra (Hagoromo's Yin-Yang if you'd prefer) with Natural Energy.

The Manga has also referred to Yin (Spiritual Energy) and Yang (Physical Energy) as not actually being chakra until combined.
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No, the Manga states that Hagoromo spread chakra throughout the world through Ninshu, as Ninshu was the art of connecting everyone together through chakra. And that all of the worlds chakra was firstly Kaguya's own.
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Databook.
"Ninshu, the power that linked individuals, became obsolete. Mankind, endowed with Kaguya's dispersed chakra, brought back the turbulent times and wielded ninjutsu as a weapon..."


Madara didn't absorb Kaguya, and if you read the blasted Manga you would have noticed that the minute Kaguya was brought out that there was a drastic increase in power that was directly noted as being far, far beyond the Ten Tails.

No, as I said above, Juubi's chakra is a drastic downgrade form Kaguya herself, even when she doesn't have all of her chakra.


Hagoromo said the jutsu requires a huge amount that he does not have anymore, that does not mean he is out of chakra, that means he doesn't have enough; example, if the jutsu requires 2000 and he only have 1000 then he doesn't have enough. The Yin Yang CT was used by the Sun and Moon seals that returned to Hagoromo so for all you know he only gave Naruto and Sasuke like 20-25% his chakra and used 50% (20-25% for each seal) since it returned back to Hagoromo. Are you not reading where I said the Bijuus have to actually focus to replenish their chakra fast? Yang Kurama showed this by placing his hands together as Naruto would do to gather natural energy or else it will replenish regularly as ninjas chakra does.
:hyper:

No, he stated that he already gave his chakra away. Gosh, this is starting to get ridiculous fast.
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The seals don't have chakra in them, at least none that weren't already there like with all seals. They return back to their original owner yes, but that is not through chakra.
Indeed, Kurama is the only that has shown that he needs to do that to regain his chakra, but as I said and you ignore, the Bijuu regain chakra over a short amount of time, thus the Juubi within Madara isn't low on chakra :)
Databook on Chibaku Tensei and the Yin Yang seals.
"Chibaku Tensei / Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" has a single entry, and lists "Nagato / Naruto and Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura" as its users. It's a kekkei genkai sealing jutsu.

Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "Chibaku Tensei" is the version that can be used by a single individual, while "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" is a more powerful version that requires two individuals simultaneously combining the Yin and Yang power (seals). It turns the sealing target into a gravity core in the sky, which attracts chunks of earth that bury them alive. This forms a heavenly body in the sky that can act as a prison for even a tailed beast. The section in the bottom left describes how the moon was the result of Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, and that so much chakra was contained within that it turned into a gigantic sattelite. It also describes it as a giant sealing stone (封印石 "Fuinseki"), which implies that Kishimoto took some inspiration from those giant "sealing stones" you sometimes see -- the big boulders with the kanji inscribed on them, usually with the ceremonial ropes adoring them.

The seals uses the users chakra, thus Naruto and Sasuke, as users, used their chakra.

Hagoromo stated he gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra AMOUNT. Half of his chakra amount to each of them translates, in percentage as 50 percent to Naruto and 50 percent to Sasuke, after transferring that, thus, he no longer has any chakra left doesn't he?



Your scan does not show Hagoromo specifically saying all his chakra just given them chakra, you're also forgetting that he got his seals back which is what was used to seal Kaguya so that chakra wasn't actually given to Sasuke and Naruto reserve wise. No Sasuke's eye is superior to a single Rinnegan but not both; the true power is awakened with both; manga fact stated for both the Sharingan and the Rinnegan. Nothing was stopping Madara after he got both of his Rinnegans and it too plot to take him down; even with 1 eye he has the power to kill both Naruto and Sasuke during the war. Sasuke gained better control over it in his battles, same would apply for Madara who instantly was able to use Obito's Kamui.
Are you intellectually a child?
The scan states that he GAVE HIS CHAKRA AWAY.
Please learn the English language.

The seals didn't hold any of his chakra nor was it meant to be a point as for what chakra they were given. If it were then their powers would have been gone the moment they lost them.

Sasuke's Rinnegan is superior as it is a fusion of the Sharingan and Rinnegan.
You mean the Manga states that Madara's Rinnegan's true power awakens when its in Madara's eye-sockets right? :lmao:
My gosh I have the mind to spout retard but I wont.
Sasuke's Rinnegan is different, and it has shown the capability to use all of the Rinnegan's techniques that was only shown usable by people with two Rinnegan eyes.




Sasuke was fighting all taijutsu for most of those hours with Naruto. So Nagato who split his chakra 1/7th (himself and his 6 Peins) used a ton of fighting ninjas in Konoha, then alright push (which drain life energy), and in his fight with Naruto is the one who used CT and said he could have made it bigger; add to the fact that he is in a weaken condition due to the chakra rods in his back. Also Nagato isn't the true holder of the eyes so he can't use it to the level as Madara would; Obito actually mentioned that he wasn't the Rinnegan's true holder. Yang is the power of physical energy and vitality which is a physical power up; Natural energy is energy that surrounds the planet and increases your physical capabilities.
Which still takes chakra for Sasuke to be able to fight against Naruto who is completly wreathed in chakra. :)
Please note that one of the most basic Ninja training is to push chakra into parts of your body to make yourself stronger and faster. :)
Lol

No, Nagato almost died when using all of his chakra through a single Pain. He still had Bijuu level reserves.
Sasuke conjured nine of the dammed things with a clap of the hand and he didn't even break into a sweat.
Doesn't matter if its not Nagato's true eyes as he's still using chakra. :)
Nagato>>>Obito in use of the Rinnegan.



Naruto's own chakra was low from fighting in the war, Yin Kurama told Naruto that so Naruto was only fighting with Yin Kurama and Hagoromo's Yang chakra while Sasuke had his and Hagomoro's. Naruto's chakra was actually absorbed by the God tree while Sasuke's was dropping due to dying but being healed should have reversed that at least some. Sasuke absorbed more chakra from the 9 Bijuus as Naruto got more natural energy. What does having Yin Yang have to do with anything that hurts my point? Yin Kurama has Yin chakra while Naruto was given Yang chakra from Hagoromo and did take Yang Kurama chakra after fighting him.

Why is any of that relevent? He was completely rejuvenated by being given Hagoromo's chakra (not Yang).

The reason why having Yin-Yang means something is because Kurama doesn't have the Sage's brand of Yin that must be combined with the Sage's Yang to form into Yin-Yang release....
Oh, and the Databook states that Naruto has that same release doesn't it? I wonder what it means.....
:bdpf:


The Yin Yang Seal went back to Hagoromo which means that wasn't chakra tied to their reserves but chakra that Hagoromo had in the seals. Nagato used up most of his chakra at that point and in a weaken state, Sasuke was not in similar state plus his the true owner of his Rinnegan unlike Nagato.
No, if that were true then they would've lost RSM and Rinnegan and all of their power-ups straight away. Couple years later and they still have them. :)
The reserves weren't tied to the seals, and the Databook makes no mention of the seals doing anything other then Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.
@ Bold. Which doesn't matter in the first place.
 
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Megatolium

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Madara used Mokuton on a planetary scale. And that wasn't even one of his trump cards.
 

Lord of Akatsuki

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Madara used Mokuton on a planetary scale. And that wasn't even one of his trump cards.

It wasn't planetary, the Naruto world only has a single continent. Planetary would mean it was in the ocean as well. :)

And that, it well, is big enough for the word 'planetary' where I beg to differ.
 

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It wasn't planetary, the Naruto world only has a single continent. Planetary would mean it was in the ocean as well. :)

And that, it well, is big enough for the word 'planetary' where I beg to differ.

Nontheless, he still used Mokuton to bind every living being on Earth.
 

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And Naruto and Sasuke borrowed chakra from Hagoromo to defeat Madara and Kaguya. Without it they had zero chance.
 

xxSAGExx

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Kurama isn't a human, he's a Bijuu, as for Minato, just because he can split a Bijuu's chakra doesn't mean that he can do that to himself or another Ninja.
Hagoromo didn't, he gave Naruto and Sasuke his chakra. His pure, undiluted chakra that he didn't split into the make-up of chakra.
No, Naruto using Yin and Yang doesn't mean that its from Hagoromo, however, Naruto using Yin-Yang release does. Yin-Yang release is a power attributed to Hagoromo and Hagoromo himself. Along with his mother of course....most likely anyway.

Naruto having Yin Kurama still wouldn't allow him to use COAT and to have the TSBs. You need Hagromo's Yin-Yang release to do that. Otherwise drawn from the Juubi (Hagoromo had those powers before being a Jin too).

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Yin-Yang Release. Six Paths.

The secret technique forming all creation out of nothingness and giving it life.

"Yin Release", which creates form out of nothingness and "Yang Release", which breathes life into form. The one with the skill to manipulate those two attributes in one, the Sage of Six Paths Hagoromo Otsutsuki, developed the "Creation of All Things Technique".
Naruto, who acquired Hagoromo's power (and chakra), demonstrates perfect [use?] of Yin-Yang Release.

Yin and Yang has nothing to do with having two Rinnegan's that's fanfic, what it does have to do with it is not having a Rinnegan at all if you don't have both to form Hagoromo's chakra. Sasuke's Rinnegan is much like the Rinnesharingan, a one eye'd Rinnegan with tomoe.
I guess Kaguya only has Yin since she only has one Rinnegan.....
:lmao:

Hagoromo's chakra is Yin and Yang in one, if he says he's giving someone his chakra, then he's ****ing well giving someone his chakra. Gosh you're....
I'm not going to finish that.




Half of chakra amount is not Yin and Yang, half of what creates the chakra in someone's coils is Yin and Yang however. For the last ****ing damn time, we are speaking about AMOUNT.
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For the last damn time, Rinnegan and RSM aren't separately Yin and Yang. Sage Mode is not a Yang power, it can only be formed from the combination of Yin (Spiritual Energy), Yang (Physical Energy) and Natural Energy in perfect balance. RSM is made from combining Six Paths chakra (Hagoromo's Yin-Yang if you'd prefer) with Natural Energy.

The Manga has also referred to Yin (Spiritual Energy) and Yang (Physical Energy) as not actually being chakra until combined.
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No, the Manga states that Hagoromo spread chakra throughout the world through Ninshu, as Ninshu was the art of connecting everyone together through chakra. And that all of the worlds chakra was firstly Kaguya's own.
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Databook.
"Ninshu, the power that linked individuals, became obsolete. Mankind, endowed with Kaguya's dispersed chakra, brought back the turbulent times and wielded ninjutsu as a weapon..."


Madara didn't absorb Kaguya, and if you read the blasted Manga you would have noticed that the minute Kaguya was brought out that there was a drastic increase in power that was directly noted as being far, far beyond the Ten Tails.

No, as I said above, Juubi's chakra is a drastic downgrade form Kaguya herself, even when she doesn't have all of her chakra.



:hyper:

No, he stated that he already gave his chakra away. Gosh, this is starting to get ridiculous fast.
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The seals don't have chakra in them, at least none that weren't already there like with all seals. They return back to their original owner yes, but that is not through chakra.
Indeed, Kurama is the only that has shown that he needs to do that to regain his chakra, but as I said and you ignore, the Bijuu regain chakra over a short amount of time, thus the Juubi within Madara isn't low on chakra :)
Databook on Chibaku Tensei and the Yin Yang seals.
"Chibaku Tensei / Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" has a single entry, and lists "Nagato / Naruto and Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura" as its users. It's a kekkei genkai sealing jutsu.

Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "Chibaku Tensei" is the version that can be used by a single individual, while "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" is a more powerful version that requires two individuals simultaneously combining the Yin and Yang power (seals). It turns the sealing target into a gravity core in the sky, which attracts chunks of earth that bury them alive. This forms a heavenly body in the sky that can act as a prison for even a tailed beast. The section in the bottom left describes how the moon was the result of Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, and that so much chakra was contained within that it turned into a gigantic sattelite. It also describes it as a giant sealing stone (封印石 "Fuinseki"), which implies that Kishimoto took some inspiration from those giant "sealing stones" you sometimes see -- the big boulders with the kanji inscribed on them, usually with the ceremonial ropes adoring them.

The seals uses the users chakra, thus Naruto and Sasuke, as users, used their chakra.

Hagoromo stated he gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra AMOUNT. Half of his chakra amount to each of them translates, in percentage as 50 percent to Naruto and 50 percent to Sasuke, after transferring that, thus, he no longer has any chakra left doesn't he?




Are you intellectually a child?
The scan states that he GAVE HIS CHAKRA AWAY.
Please learn the English language.

The seals didn't hold any of his chakra nor was it meant to be a point as for what chakra they were given. If it were then their powers would have been gone the moment they lost them.

Sasuke's Rinnegan is superior as it is a fusion of the Sharingan and Rinnegan.
You mean the Manga states that Madara's Rinnegan's true power awakens when its in Madara's eye-sockets right? :lmao:
My gosh I have the mind to spout retard but I wont.
Sasuke's Rinnegan is different, and it has shown the capability to use all of the Rinnegan's techniques that was only shown usable by people with two Rinnegan eyes.





Which still takes chakra for Sasuke to be able to fight against Naruto who is completly wreathed in chakra. :)
Please note that one of the most basic Ninja training is to push chakra into parts of your body to make yourself stronger and faster. :)
Lol

No, Nagato almost died when using all of his chakra through a single Pain. He still had Bijuu level reserves.
Sasuke conjured nine of the dammed things with a clap of the hand and he didn't even break into a sweat.
Doesn't matter if its not Nagato's true eyes as he's still using chakra. :)
Nagato>>>Obito in use of the Rinnegan.





Why is any of that relevent? He was completely rejuvenated by being given Hagoromo's chakra (not Yang).

The reason why having Yin-Yang means something is because Kurama doesn't have the Sage's brand of Yin that must be combined with the Sage's Yang to form into Yin-Yang release....
Oh, and the Databook states that Naruto has that same release doesn't it? I wonder what it means.....
:bdpf:



No, if that were true then they would've lost RSM and Rinnegan and all of their power-ups straight away. Couple years later and they still have them. :)
The reserves weren't tied to the seals, and the Databook makes no mention of the seals doing anything other then Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.
@ Bold. Which doesn't matter in the first place.

I wasn't saying Hagoromo's chakra did not give Naruto Yin Yang release, I'm saying he had Yin release and Yang release which are needed to use yin yang release. Yin Kurama is yin chakra after all. In the DB section under Yin Yang release it also says Senjus had Yang release and Uchihas had Yin release which we know since Obito told Naruto how Indra had the Sage's eyes which came with powerful chakra and spiritual energy while Ashura got the Sage's body which gave him lifeforce and physical energy. I was simply one saying Hagoromo chakra allowed Naruto to use Yin Yang but that does not mean it also gave him Yin chakra.

Think about it. If Ashura inherited Hagoromo's Yang chakra which gifted him with lifeforce and physical energy while Indra inheriting Hagoromo's Yin chakra which gifted him with powerful chakra and spiritual energy; plus having both of their chakra forms Hagoromo's chakra then having both Hagoromo's Yin and Yang chakra would gift you with both the Sage's eyes and body since both were split between the sons. So Sasuke and Naruto should have both Rinnegans and Rikudo Senjutsu but this isn't the case.

I never said Kurama was a human, he's a mass of living chakra; Minato split chakra into Yin and Yang so Hagoromo can easily do this with his own chakra. The bottom line is that it's chakra that was split. Sasuke's Rinnegan is still classified as a Rinnegan, it's called this by Sasuke, Sakura, BZ, Madara, and Hagoromo himself so that's what it is; it's a level up over the regular Rinnegan but double Rinnegan is stronger. I'll agree with the spread chakra part, I was trying to go by memory with that one. The DB thread says Kaguya eat the fruit that the Shinju grew to become the progenitor of chakra. For the Shinju to grow the fruit it had to have the chakra inside itself so it's the source where chakra really came from. The translation also says Kaguya later fuse with Shinju to become the Juubi which Hagoromo and Hamura thought was just a transformation of the Shinju .

Kaguya was in the Shinju, she told Madara to absorb the Shinju and said its time they became one and . Chakra from those in IT was being absorbed by Madara's body as he was turning into Kaguya Madara was going to do this himself I'm sure since he mentioned how chakra made others abuse the power that Hagoromo wanted used as a way to connect to others. Sasuke comments how Madara's body looked like it was going to explode after absorbing all of that chakra then after Kaguya's body is formed he compared the chakra . Kaguya's chakra after merging with the Shinju was obviously stronger than her sons which is what was split into the 9 Bijuus.

You can't say the seals didn't have a lot of chakra in them, Kaguya actually notice the power in the Seals right after first being revived and seals can contain chakra such as Tsunade's Yin seal or Naruto's 8 triagram seal or Orochimaru curse mark seal. Kurama wouldn't be the only one, all of the Bijuus would replenish their chakra the same unless it's said or implied they don't; they do not replenish their chakra fast unless they do what Yang Kurama does and even then it takes time for him to replenish his chakra. Kurama was low or out of chakra here and didn't replenish it for like 15-30 minutes . That's Yang Kurama focused on gathering more chakra, if the Bijuus are just standing there then they are not replenishing their chakra at the same rate; it would be slower.

Except that the seals belongs to Hagoromo and not Naruto or Sasuke; does the CM use Sasuke chakra? No it's chakra from Orochimaru and Juugo, 8 triagram a is Kurama's chakra not Naruto's, and the Yin seal is actually the user chakra being saved in the seal. You still have yet shown scans of Hagoromo actually saying he gave half his total reserve to Naruto and Sasuke; if I say I'm going to give you half of $100 I could easily be talking about $50 or rip that $100 and give you half. Half of Hagoromo's chakra being Yin and Yang makes more manga sense since having both would give both Naruto and Sasuke the same powerup of Rinnegan and RSM.

Are you intellectually a child? He clearly said the jutsu he wants to use requires a large amount of chakra which he said he does not have because he gave it away; he's talking about the amount required to use the jutsu not all of his reserve. Hagoromo summoned the past 5 Kages himself so he clearly has chakra; the Edo Hokages said they didn't have much chakra so they wouldn't have enough to give Hagoromo the chakra needed to summon the past Kages and help summon Naruto's group back. I'm basing this off of the fact he summoned the past Kages so unless he did give them all of his chakra with a large amount being in the seals which he got back before he summoned them back or he didn't give them all his chakra.

You keep arguing Hagoromo saying he gave his chakra away yet the manga shows ninjas saying all of their chakra is about to run out, have Sakura say they couldn't use medical ninjutsu anymore, show Tsunade saying Sakura still have some chakra, and show Sakura's medical ninjutsu chakra shrink as she comments on her chakra. All of this shows Sakura should have very little no no chakra at all yet she pulled a huge reserve out of nowhere to help Obito save Sasuke. It's just one of the many plotholes.

Taijutsu uses stamina not chakra . You can use chakra to increase your speed (Shunshin) or strength (CES) but Naruto and Sasuke weren't using chakra in their fight due to being fatigue.
 

Lord of Akatsuki

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I wasn't saying Hagoromo's chakra did not give Naruto Yin Yang release, I'm saying he had Yin release and Yang release which are needed to use yin yang release. Yin Kurama is yin chakra after all. In the DB section under Yin Yang release it also says Senjus had Yang release and Uchihas had Yin release which we know since Obito told Naruto how Indra had the Sage's eyes which came with powerful chakra and spiritual energy while Ashura got the Sage's body which gave him lifeforce and physical energy. I was simply one saying Hagoromo chakra allowed Naruto to use Yin Yang but that does not mean it also gave him Yin chakra.

I don't even.

Okay, let me explain this for you again as it clearly went over your head. Everyone has Yin and Yang, however, everyone's Yin and Yang is ultimately different. Kurama's Yin and Yang is ultimately not the same as either Naruto's or Hagoromo's Yin and Yang. Going by this trend, we can deduce that Naruto using Yang and combining it with Kurama's Yin will not create the Sage's Yin-Yang release.

Yin-Yang Release. Six Paths.

The secret technique forming all creation out of nothingness and giving it life.

"Yin Release", which creates form out of nothingness and "Yang Release", which breathes life into form. The one with the skill to manipulate those two attributes in one, the Sage of Six Paths Hagoromo Otsutsuki, developed the "Creation of All Things Technique".
↑ Naruto, who acquired Hagoromo's power (and chakra), demonstrates perfect [use?] of Yin-Yang Release.

Yin Yang release is also referred to as Six Paths chakra. Yin or Yang on their own are not referred to as Six Paths chakra. Still with me?
Naruto was given the power of Six Paths Sage Mode. Still with me? Sasuke was also given the power of Six Paths. The Rinnegan, which can only be obtained through Six Paths chakra, or in more obvious terms combining the Yin and Yang of Indra and Ashura to make (bring out) Hagoromo's chakra, which is Yin-Yang release (Six Paths chakra).

The Uchiha and Senju do have Yin release and Yang release separately, however, the Manga notes that their power/chakra is not the same as Indra and Ashura's, the combination needed to recreate Six Paths chakra, more commonly known as Hagoromo's chakra.


Hagormo's chakra means that he gave Naruto his Yin and Yang. As I told you before, the Manga notes that chakra is made through the combination of Yin and Yang, and that when they are separate that they aren't considered chakra.
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And Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke his chakra. Thus, my friend, he gave them his Six Paths chakra. Which means he gave them the Yin and Yang energies that makes his chakra.



Think about it. If Ashura inherited Hagoromo's Yang chakra which gifted him with lifeforce and physical energy while Indra inheriting Hagoromo's Yin chakra which gifted him with powerful chakra and spiritual energy; plus having both of their chakra forms Hagoromo's chakra then having both Hagoromo's Yin and Yang chakra would gift you with both the Sage's eyes and body since both were split between the sons. So Sasuke and Naruto should have both Rinnegans and Rikudo Senjutsu but this isn't the case.

Not necessarily, as Hagoromo halved his power. Giving Naruto RSM and Sasuke the Rinnegan. Hagroomo directly controlled the gifts that his chakra would give within them. You also seem confused, you can't have the Rinnegan without first combining the powers of the Sage's body and Sage's eyes. Also known as Yin and Yang. This is directly canon from the manga.
And for the last time Hagoromo's Yang power is not RSM. The Databook mentions Six Paths Sage Mode as a mental state that grants 'the universal comprehension of all things.'
Mental power is Yin my good sir.

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'Six Paths Sage Mode (六道仙人モード, Rikudō Sennin Mōdo)


Heading: A gift from the ancestor of Shinobi that grants a supernatural MENTAL STATE allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.'



I never said Kurama was a human, he's a mass of living chakra; Minato split chakra into Yin and Yang so Hagoromo can easily do this with his own chakra. The bottom line is that it's chakra that was split. Sasuke's Rinnegan is still classified as a Rinnegan, it's called this by Sasuke, Sakura, BZ, Madara, and Hagoromo himself so that's what it is; it's a level up over the regular Rinnegan but double Rinnegan is stronger. I'll agree with the spread chakra part, I was trying to go by memory with that one. The DB thread says Kaguya eat the fruit that the Shinju grew to become the progenitor of chakra. For the Shinju to grow the fruit it had to have the chakra inside itself so it's the source where chakra really came from. The translation also says Kaguya later fuse with Shinju to become the Juubi which Hagoromo and Hamura thought was just a transformation of the Shinju .

I know you didn't, I'm merely calling you out on using his case and directing onto human's when they both work very differently. Minato split Kurama into Yin and Yang yes, though both showed use of Yin and Yang chakra several times (Yang Kurama forming a TBB with small Yin and Yang orbs). As is quite clearly shown they aren't completely cut off from the other's chakra, rather that they are more predominantly Yin or Yang when split.
Thus you make the obvious conclusion and realise that you can't split chakra into Yin and Yang completely.
Indeed, and I classify Sasuke's Rinnegan as a Rinnegan alone, though I sometimes add 'Tomoe' to the name. Its still equal to two Rinnegan's.

The Shinju doesn't have chakra, it was simply a construct of Natural Energy, the power of the fruit was drawn from the earth and placed into the fruit.
Kaguya is stated as the progenitor/originator of chakra in both the Manga and DB, thus it comes from her. Please note that the Shinju, as a construct of Natural Energy, doesn't have Physical or Spiritual Energies (Yin and Yang), so where did that come from you might ask? Obviously we make the deduction that when Kaguya ate the fruit it created a chakra system for her and thus, as she has a body similar to human's, that her body created Physical and Spiritual Energies (Yin and Yang).
Yet again, having one Rinnegan doesn't mean much, Kaguya has only one (DB refers to her's as Rinnesharingan yet the Manga referred to it as simply a Rinnegan), yet her eyes are greater then any dual variant. She isn't just Yin is she?


Kaguya was in the Shinju, she told Madara to absorb the Shinju and said its time they became one and . Chakra from those in IT was being absorbed by Madara's body as he was turning into Kaguya Madara was going to do this himself I'm sure since he mentioned how chakra made others abuse the power that Hagoromo wanted used as a way to connect to others. Sasuke comments how Madara's body looked like it was going to explode after absorbing all of that chakra then after Kaguya's body is formed he compared the chakra . Kaguya's chakra after merging with the Shinju was obviously stronger than her sons which is what was split into the 9 Bijuus.


Indeed, however he clearly didn't absorb her fully otherwise he would have had a massive increase in power that was similar to when Zetsu brought her out. The chakra from IT is Kaguya's chakra in the first place.
Madara did not know that and he did not have much of her power if at all.
Madara's body was exploding because Zetsu was forcing Kaguya to come out. It was stated that the chakra output Madara was letting out as he was turning into Kaguya was greater then the Juubi.
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Sasuke later confirms the same for Kaguya, but goes further with it.
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'This chakra, its on a whole different level than Madara.'
Its right there, the Manga states it yet you ignore it.
Kaguya's chakra was greater even before merging with the Shinju. Her chakra wasn't fully split into the 9 Bijuu's and the chakra within the Juubi is shown to be weaker then her son's.
Please note that Naruto with only half of Hagoromo's chakra was shown to be able to overpower Madara.
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Madara questioned how it was possible, but later came to the conclusion that Naruto was simply more powerful.
Thus, half of Hagoromo's chakra/power>Juubidara before absorbing the Shinju. In the Manga, having more chakra has been shown to equate power, speed and strength.
Once Madara absorbed the Shinju he was shown to have an increase in power (but not too drastic), he was capable of pretty much fighting on almost equal terms with Naruto and Sasuke separately several times.
As you can see its not the power of the Bijuu that gave so much power, but getting the power of the Shinju/Kaguya, but as you can see he didn't get all of it.

Thus Hagoromo and Hamura>>>Juubi but they are weaker then Kaguya.


You can't say the seals didn't have a lot of chakra in them, Kaguya actually notice the power in the Seals right after first being revived and seals can contain chakra such as Tsunade's Yin seal or Naruto's 8 triagram seal or Orochimaru curse mark seal. Kurama wouldn't be the only one, all of the Bijuus would replenish their chakra the same unless it's said or implied they don't; they do not replenish their chakra fast unless they do what Yang Kurama does and even then it takes time for him to replenish his chakra. Kurama was low or out of chakra here and didn't replenish it for like 15-30 minutes . That's Yang Kurama focused on gathering more chakra, if the Bijuus are just standing there then they are not replenishing their chakra at the same rate; it would be slower.


No, Kaguya noticed the physical appearance of the seals and got angry because those were the same seals that Hagoromo and Hamura had in their battle, not that they had chakra in them. The scan here.
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Is her using her Byakugan to see their chakra.


As I said, the seals don't have chakra in them, at least none that weren't already there like with all seals. Its doubtful Hagoromo put chakra into them, especially since he wasn't noted to have done so in any canon material, if there was chakra in them then its most probable that it was already there instead of recent.

Kurama has been the only one shown to need to do that, the others haven't, and their chakra seemed to replenish differently. Might be because Kurama has a lot more chakra then them?



Except that the seals belongs to Hagoromo and not Naruto or Sasuke; does the CM use Sasuke chakra? No it's chakra from Orochimaru and Juugo, 8 triagram a is Kurama's chakra not Naruto's, and the Yin seal is actually the user chakra being saved in the seal. You still have yet shown scans of Hagoromo actually saying he gave half his total reserve to Naruto and Sasuke; if I say I'm going to give you half of $100 I could easily be talking about $50 or rip that $100 and give you half. Half of Hagoromo's chakra being Yin and Yang makes more manga sense since having both would give both Naruto and Sasuke the same powerup of Rinnegan and RSM.

Indeed, however, Naruto and Sasuke are classed as users of the seals, and the Databook makes note that the two users combine power.....

:hmm:

No half of Hagoromo's chakra is not Yin and Yang, that's what makes chakra. Think of it this way, let's say there is a cup with Yin and Yang in it, and that we halve that cup, what happens? Is it solely Yin or Yang? Or does it have both still?
Answer that and things will become clearer for you.

If having Yang meant having RSM then Madara would have gotten RSM from simply gaining Ashura's power, but instead he got it from the Juubi....

Hagoromo controlled the power-ups so that's why.



Are you intellectually a child? He clearly said the jutsu he wants to use requires a large amount of chakra which he said he does not have because he gave it away; he's talking about the amount required to use the jutsu not all of his reserve. Hagoromo summoned the past 5 Kages himself so he clearly has chakra; the Edo Hokages said they didn't have much chakra so they wouldn't have enough to give Hagoromo the chakra needed to summon the past Kages and help summon Naruto's group back. I'm basing this off of the fact he summoned the past Kages so unless he did give them all of his chakra with a large amount being in the seals which he got back before he summoned them back or he didn't give them all his chakra.

Lol, not a bad comeback (a repeat of mine though, can't you come up with something better?), but its clear that the only child here is you.
He says he gave his chakra away. But okay, to put it simply. Let's say I have energy, and I then say that there is a technique I must use, but it requires a huge amount of energy, and that I gave my energy away....' Does that mean I'm saying I still have some left, or more accurately that I gave all that energy away? The later is the correct answer.

Edo's have endless chakra...... :hmm:
He said that he'd do the hand seals and that they'd supply the chakra, gosh, its right there. The Manga says it.


You keep arguing Hagoromo saying he gave his chakra away yet the manga shows ninjas saying all of their chakra is about to run out, have Sakura say they couldn't use medical ninjutsu anymore, show Tsunade saying Sakura still have some chakra, and show Sakura's medical ninjutsu chakra shrink as she comments on her chakra. All of this shows Sakura should have very little no no chakra at all yet she pulled a huge reserve out of nowhere to help Obito save Sasuke. It's just one of the many plotholes.

That was plot PIS. Sakura pulled chakra out of her Yin seal. Not only that, but there's a difference between saying 'almost' out of 'chakra' and saying 'I gave it away.'

None of this will help your argument.


]Taijutsu uses stamina not chakra . You can use chakra to increase your speed (Shunshin) or strength (CES) but Naruto and Sasuke weren't using chakra in their fight due to being fatigue.

Indeed, but they use chakra for their speed and strength do they not? :yeah:
 
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Ansatsuken

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Just kill this thread please. People wrote stone tablet here.
 

RasenUchihaChaos

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This is just a plot because someone desperately desires Madara to lose his throne as top dog since none but kaguya could possibly 1v1 him
 
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