Establishing why Madara is not stronger than Naruto or Sasuke's strongest forms

Berner · Jul 30, 2015

Sixth Hokage 06 said:
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Lord Sasuke>Madara

thread/ sasuke>madara and naruto

xxSAGExx · Jul 30, 2015

Sennin of Logic said:
I've noticed that the opinion of many of the base members has shifted to Madara being stronger than Naruto and Sasuke (for all versions), so I'd like to reestablish Naruto and Sasuke's abilities in comparison to Madara and challenge commonly used arguments used for Madara. Bear in mind, I'm not talking about them as a team, but an individual level. I will not be using Hokage Naruto and Sasuke at that point in time, as it's unknown whether or not they've completely degraded by the time of the film, or if they got stronger. In terms of chakra, they're definitely stronger, but their battle judgement is in question from Gaiden. So, I'll be using the Last versions of Naruto and Sasuke, as they clearly improved and had great feats for them, and they clearly weren't degraded in battle judgement at that time. I will not be using Kurama mode+SM for the Last Naruto, but what his RSM had to have been like at that point in time.

First, I'd like to address the arguments usually made for Madara

Madara's fans know that his feats do not match up with Naruto and Sasuke's, and that due to being cut short, Madara has not had the chance for better feats (operating under the assumption that he has better). Because of this, they often use portrayal and the objectiveness of Madara's abilities as a method of arguing.

Madara's fans will often say that he is portrayed to be stronger than Naruto and Sasuke and use if for the later versions. This is an invalid argument for them. Yes, Madara was clearly portrayed to be stronger than RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke individually.

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However, that was Naruto and Sasuke learning to use their abilities, meaning it does not apply for them after the Kaguya arc. Additionally, by portrayal, early RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke together are stronger than Madara, meaning if their abilities are twice as strong as they were previously, then they most certainly can beat Madara.

The other common argument is that Madara is that Madara is equal to Hagoromo in power, making him twice as strong as Naruto and Sasuke.

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However, this is obviously not the case. In the Last, Haruma was shown to have TSBs (and as such RSM) without the tenseigan.

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Haruma was not a Juubi Jin, so it's entirely plausible that Hagoromo had RSM pre Juubi as well, and the juubi on top of that. For JJ Madara, who didn't have RSM before the Juubi, to be equal to Hagoromo is impossible. Also, this statement also included Kaguya, which means using this as evidence that Madara=Hagoromo is faulty. This most likely is referring to IT. That, and his chakra is entirely likely to only be slightly stronger than Naruto or Sasuke's if at all.

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Even if this was due to Madara still not being fully recovered (which Madara dismisses), you still have to take into account that an injured Madara was overpowered by RSM Naruto, who didn't fully activate it. He has no excuse against Sasuke. Although he had his back turned (meaning it's not tuly a blitz), Madara had a head start, and for Sasuke to catch up like that means that his physical attributes (and as such, the amount that his chakra enhances him) is similar to Madara's. It's very unlikely that there's a significant chakra difference between RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke at that time.

Sometimes, they'll try to say that Madara can make a biju susanoo, but remember, biju susanoo has his own rikkudo chakra, and basically turns the bijus into a juubi inside of it. Madara already uses the juubi for his 6 paths senjutsu, so for him to make a biju susanoo, he'd have to extract it out of himself into the susanoo, which would depower his own susanoo. Basically, since Madara already uses the bijus for one thing, he can't have both uses.

Of course, there's also the argument that Madara was holding back.

The scan most used for that view is this.

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The comparison to raindrops is what most Madara fans use to say that Madara was toying with Naruto and Sasuke, to imply that he could do much more than this. However, he was most likely using it as an analogy since he was dropping a bunch of CT as if they were rain. Additionally, there's another statement that would imply he had every intention of finishing Naruto and Sasuke.

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"We have played enough" This seems to imply that Madara had every intention to finish them, leaving little room to argue that Madara was still toying with them. Even if the CT demonstration was not his limit, to say that his limit is much stronger is simply fans inventing his limits. As it stands, there's not much to imply that he wasn't trying to kill them, so this is most likely close to his limit, if it isn't, although he could most certainly not divide his CTs and make a huge one instead of a barrage.

Naruto

Naruto during the Last clearly has full Kurama. This means that, at the very least, the power of his chakra is doubled (or has twice the reserves). This is, of course, disregarding further mastery over his chakra. One thing I'd like to mention is that the physical attributes of Naruto's Kurama Avatar are clearly equal to Sasuke's PS, which cleaved an CT in half with a single strike.

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So obviously, through phsyical attributes alone, the CT fragments could be destroyed let alone through TBB firepower.

What's more is that Naruto's potency clearly got a huge buff in the Last as evident with his fight with Toneri. With Kurama mode and senjutsu running simultaneously (with possibly a little bit of Rikkudo chakra as he was flying), Naruto's performance was far superior to his previous Kurama mode performance.

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His planetary ransengan equaled silver wheel: rebirth explosion, which causes a huge tornado that blasted through the moon's surface. That's quite the feat. Additionally, by focusing his chakra, he could go through golden wheel: rebirth explosion, which cut the moon in half. So, imagine how much more powerful his RSM is than it was during his fight with Sasuke at VOTE 2.

And then there's Ashura Avatar. Given the fact that both Naruto and Sasuke were both injured by their jutsu clash, even if you factor in Naruto's element advantage, it has to be somewhat close to Biju susanoo.

Biju susanoo easily overpowered 4 Kurama Avatars, which is equal to Sasuke's PS, and as such, is at least close to Madara's susanoo.

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Now, Ashura Avatar works by overloading one Kurama Avatar with natural energy, and putting it into 3 Kuarama Avatars.

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So, not only is Naruto's chakra's potency increased from mastery/both halves of Kuarma, but having both halves doubles the natural energy Naruto would be able to absorb. So, in other words, the Last Naruto's Ashura Avatar is likely more than twice as strong as it was at VOTE 2. Because of this, even if Madara's limbos can use PS, and even if Madara has the chakra to support 5 PS simultaneously, he would be easily overpowered by the Last Naruto's Ashura Avatar given the huge difference from Kurama Avatar and the huge buff it would have gotten. Madara's PS is not a threat.

The only threat Madara poses is his rinnegan. Now, as we all know, Deva Path is the strongest rinnegan ability. Madara's biggest CT is, or is close to all his CT fragements combined.

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Now, most would assume that his capabilities with almighty push and universal pull are similarly powerful. However, this is not the case. If we use Pain as a reference, the only time the area of effect of almighty push equals CT, is when he uses it to near-lethal levels that restricts Deva Path for at least 5 minutes.

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Any other almighty push usage is drastically weaker than this. So the average Deva path usage won't be a problem for Naruto, leaving only the large almighty push as a threat, but given how powerful Ashrua Avatar is, it won't be taken down by it even if it's damaged, and that will restrict Deva path for 5 minutes. Then it'll be easy for Naruto to kill Madara from that point forward.

The other threat is IT, but this is only a factor when the moon's at their location, meaning the usage as an ability is conditional at best. Also, Naruto has learned to fly, meaning Naruto's fully capable of chasing Madara, and blasting through his attempt to prevent him from catching up.

Now to deal with the elephant in the room. Immortality.

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First off, others have been called immortal, but had their limits.

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Additionally, even if Madara's "immortal" what's he going to do if Naruto makes an attack that obliterates every cell? How would he come back from that? If Naruto completely obliterates Madara, he's not coming back.

Also, there's also the fact that he has tailed beast ransenshuriken, which can make his bijus go out of control. After that, Naruto could yank the bijus out of Madara, empowering him, enabling Shukaku's sealing to restrain the depowered Madara, who will not be able to resist.

Sasuke

It's actually much simpler to debate this with Sasuke. For starters, IT will do nothing, taking away Madara's most dangerous ability. When you get down to it, since both have the rinnegan, it all comes down to the quality of their chakra, and their unique rinnegan abilities.

Pressumably, Sasuke equaled Naruto during the Last, but if we're looking for specific examples of his prowess, there's this.

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With a normal chidori, Sasuke destroys a meteor, which is at least mountain-busting level. This is an unprecedented feat when you consider the destructive potential of the rikkudo-level characters when using other simple attacks.

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This shows a tremendous difference in basic power that was shown previously, meaning Sasuke's chakra got much, much stronger. As such, that means that Sasuke's susanoo, and rinnegan powers should be significantly stronger than Madara's.

As for limbo, even assuming that Madara's limbos can use PS, and even if they can pose a threat to Sasuke (which is unlikely given the difference in chakra), Sasuke has recently shown shadow clone jutsu. It was always within the rank of the sharingan's copy ability, so Sasuke most likely had this, but never used it out of preference (like Madara). When it comes down to it, if Madara uses clones and PS, so will Sasuke.

As for Madara's immortality, Sasuke could simply weaken Madara, and then follow up with either using preta path to take away Madara's chakra and/or use human path to take out Madara's soul.

Hope the thread has reaffirmed or convince you that, at best, Madara can only beat Naruto or Sasuke at extreme high-diff, or would loose to them.

I read the majority of your Madara argument and some from Naruto and Sasuke but I'm sorry but I don't think you're right in a lot of cases. You don't really get that Madara is much stronger than the manga shown because he was being nerfed the moment he became Juubi Jin. First off, the Juubi has more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke, the weaker Juubi that Obito had (before Madara took Yang Kurama) was said to have immeasurable power which Naruto in SM couldn't sense (he could in RSM but that's because he was now on god tier). You also fail to realize that Madara only had 1 Rinnegan while fighting Naruto and Sasuke and even then he wasn't using jutsus he could have been using.

Where was the wood clones, deva path, Susanoo, and powerful Katon jutsus? Madara's PS would be on a stronger level than Sasuke's since the Juubi's power is powering it up. Madara didn't even have all of his TSBs in that fight plus you didn't take into account that Madara wasn't use to his Rinnegans either yet you only mentioned that Sasuke wasn't use to his Rinnegan until after the war arc. Madara with both Rinnegans have more power than Sasuke's 6T Rinnegan, reason why they couldn't touch him after he got his other Rinnegan. Let Madara live up to The Last timeline and he would have mastered his eyes as Sasuke has. Hagoromo isn't going to have chakra greater or equal to the Juubi, it's power is like the Juubi's since it was passed down from Kaguya who got it from the God Tree.

What will Sasuke do when Madara makes 25 wood clones with each of them using Limbo to make 4 Limbos each? So that's 26 Madaras with 104 Limbos and Sasuke can only see Limbos with only 1 of his eyes. Even if Sasuke makes 25 clones like Madara, he would be splitting his chakra into 1/25th for each. Madara as an Edo Tensei which are weaker than when they're alive made 25 clones easily to beat the 5 Kages; 25 clones isn't the max Madara could have made, Sasuke's chakra is going to be as much as Madara had pre-Juubi Jin or a bit more. Madara had a huge chakra reserve amongst Uchihas, he is skilled in pretty much all fields. Madara and Sasuke both used other jutsus with their Susanoo so if Madara lived those 2 years then for all we know he would be able to make Susanoo Limbos since the DB says the Limbo clones have Madara's abilities if I remember correctly.

Naruto I can see beating JJ Madara since he has chakra from all 9 Bijuus and can disrupt the Juubi Jins chakra. As for Sasuke's use of Pretha path, Madara use of Pretha path would most likely cancel that out just like how Edo Hashirama's wood dragon absorbing ability prevented Edo Madara from absorbing ninjutsus and Madara can use wood dragon as he did against BM Naruto. Madara will have all of his TSBs which can negate ninjutsus unless they have Senjutsu and even if they do, the TSBs can tank high level jutsus as Obito did against BSM and Susanoo during the war. If Madara have himself and some clones use a TSB as a sword for their PS then it's going to cut through Sasuke's PS like butter as Obito did to Sasuke's Susanoo.

Ansatsuken · Jul 30, 2015

xxSAGExx said:
I read the majority of your Madara argument and some from Naruto and Sasuke but I'm sorry but I don't think you're right in a lot of cases. You don't really get that Madara is much stronger than the manga shown because he was being nerfed the moment he became Juubi Jin. First off, the Juubi has more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke, the weaker Juubi that Obito had (before Madara took Yang Kurama) was said to have immeasurable power which Naruto in SM couldn't sense (he could in RSM but that's because he was now on god tier). You also fail to realize that Madara only had 1 Rinnegan while fighting Naruto and Sasuke and even then he wasn't using jutsus he could have been using.

Where was the wood clones, deva path, Susanoo, and powerful Katon jutsus? Madara's PS would be on a stronger level than Sasuke's since the Juubi's power is powering it up. Madara didn't even have all of his TSBs in that fight plus you didn't take into account that Madara wasn't use to his Rinnegans either yet you only mentioned that Sasuke wasn't use to his Rinnegan until after the war arc. Madara with both Rinnegans have more power than Sasuke's 6T Rinnegan, reason why they couldn't touch him after he got his other Rinnegan. Let Madara live up to The Last timeline and he would have mastered his eyes as Sasuke has. Hagoromo isn't going to have chakra greater or equal to the Juubi, it's power is like the Juubi's since it was passed down from Kaguya who got it from the God Tree.

What will Sasuke do when Madara makes 25 wood clones with each of them using Limbo to make 4 Limbos each? So that's 26 Madaras with 104 Limbos and Sasuke can only see Limbos with only 1 of his eyes. Even if Sasuke makes 25 clones like Madara, he would be splitting his chakra into 1/25th for each. Madara as an Edo Tensei which are weaker than when they're alive made 25 clones easily to beat the 5 Kages; 25 clones isn't the max Madara could have made, Sasuke's chakra is going to be as much as Madara had pre-Juubi Jin or a bit more. Madara had a huge chakra reserve amongst Uchihas, he is skilled in pretty much all fields. Madara and Sasuke both used other jutsus with their Susanoo so if Madara lived those 2 years then for all we know he would be able to make Susanoo Limbos since the DB says the Limbo clones have Madara's abilities if I remember correctly.

Naruto I can see beating JJ Madara since he has chakra from all 9 Bijuus and can disrupt the Juubi Jins chakra. As for Sasuke's use of Pretha path, Madara use of Pretha path would most likely cancel that out just like how Edo Hashirama's wood dragon absorbing ability prevented Edo Madara from absorbing ninjutsus and Madara can use wood dragon as he did against BM Naruto. Madara will have all of his TSBs which can negate ninjutsus unless they have Senjutsu and even if they do, the TSBs can tank high level jutsus as Obito did against BSM and Susanoo during the war. If Madara have himself and some clones use a TSB as a sword for their PS then it's going to cut through Sasuke's PS like butter as Obito did to Sasuke's Susanoo.

To Sum up/summarize your post:-

Sasuke cant beat JJ Madara

Naruto can beat JJ Madara

Thats all we need to know:sdo:

Sennin of Logic · Jul 30, 2015

Ambivalence said:
''So many idiots... so few bullets''.

Love those one-liners with zero arguments, by the way.

Sadly, I don't even need to defame these statements. If they think Madara can beat the Ootsutsuki family 1v1, then they need help.

xxSAGExx said:
I read the majority of your Madara argument and some from Naruto and Sasuke but I'm sorry but I don't think you're right in a lot of cases. You don't really get that Madara is much stronger than the manga shown because he was being nerfed the moment he became Juubi Jin. First off, the Juubi has more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke, the weaker Juubi that Obito had (before Madara took Yang Kurama) was said to have immeasurable power which Naruto in SM couldn't sense (he could in RSM but that's because he was now on god tier). You also fail to realize that Madara only had 1 Rinnegan while fighting Naruto and Sasuke and even then he wasn't using jutsus he could have been using.

Well no, Madara isn't much stronger than Kaguya arc Naruto and Sasuke at least. Your basis for the Juubi having stronger and more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke is what? The fact that their physical attributes and reaction time are similar to Madara's would imply that Naruto and Sasuke's chakra is comparable to begin with, because if enhanced attributes are proportional to chakra, then they'd have to be close. Naruto was confirmed to have at least equivalent reflexes to Madara, and was considered to have the pinnacle of sensing. This is a large indicator that Naruto's senjutsu quality is at least Madara's equal, and that's all the juubi is. It's senjutsu. Even though Sasuke's performance in speed and reflexes were inferior to Naruto's (implying his senjutsu is weaker), Sasuke is more than capable of fighting Naruto head on, and as such, the difference between Madara's chakra and Sasuke's is not a large one.

Where was the wood clones, deva path, Susanoo, and powerful Katon jutsus? Madara's PS would be on a stronger level than Sasuke's since the Juubi's power is powering it up. Madara didn't even have all of his TSBs in that fight plus you didn't take into account that Madara wasn't use to his Rinnegans either yet you only mentioned that Sasuke wasn't use to his Rinnegan until after the war arc. Madara with both Rinnegans have more power than Sasuke's 6T Rinnegan, reason why they couldn't touch him after he got his other Rinnegan. Let Madara live up to The Last timeline and he would have mastered his eyes as Sasuke has. Hagoromo isn't going to have chakra greater or equal to the Juubi, it's power is like the Juubi's since it was passed down from Kaguya who got it from the God Tree.

Madara didn't have both rinnegans. As Obito didn't use Deva or Preta path either with one rinnegan, it stands to reason that these abilities are restricted outside of 2 rinnegans (Sasuke's being the exception due to having a higher-level rinnegan). Sasuke's rinnegan is superior to the standard rinnegan as evident by the fact that "his eye powers return" shows that he goes from the standard rinnegan to his 6T rinnegan, so to say "both rinnegans are superior to one" is not a good argument.

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Sasuke's rinnegan (and likely mastery) during the time of the last is superior, and his chakra, as evident by his chidrori, is also superior. Therefore, the Last Sasuke is superior in combat to dual rinnegan JJ Madara due to being superior in both factors.

What will Sasuke do when Madara makes 25 wood clones with each of them using Limbo to make 4 Limbos each? So that's 26 Madaras with 104 Limbos and Sasuke can only see Limbos with only 1 of his eyes. Even if Sasuke makes 25 clones like Madara, he would be splitting his chakra into 1/25th for each. Madara as an Edo Tensei which are weaker than when they're alive made 25 clones easily to beat the 5 Kages; 25 clones isn't the max Madara could have made, Sasuke's chakra is going to be as much as Madara had pre-Juubi Jin or a bit more. Madara had a huge chakra reserve amongst Uchihas, he is skilled in pretty much all fields. Madara and Sasuke both used other jutsus with their Susanoo so if Madara lived those 2 years then for all we know he would be able to make Susanoo Limbos since the DB says the Limbo clones have Madara's abilities if I remember correctly.

This is right about where you're getting into fanfic. First off, it doesn't matter what Madara would have been had he lived through the Last, as he did not. This is the same as theorizing what Minato or Itachi would have become, and using it as a measure of their strength in a VS matchup.

The rinnnegan's abilities can't be split into multiple bodies as is evident by 2 instances. 1. Nagato's Pain bodies can only use one ability each, and they're degraded. 2. When Madara used wood clones against the kages, his clones did not have the rinnegan. There's no reason to believe that such a combination is possible, and even then, he wouldn't be able to use his full abilities with each, and swarm tactics are against his character.

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If using clones degrades his performance, he will discard them. Madara prefers strong, centralized power.

Naruto I can see beating JJ Madara since he has chakra from all 9 Bijuus and can disrupt the Juubi Jins chakra. As for Sasuke's use of Pretha path, Madara use of Pretha path would most likely cancel that out just like how Edo Hashirama's wood dragon absorbing ability prevented Edo Madara from absorbing ninjutsus and Madara can use wood dragon as he did against BM Naruto. Madara will have all of his TSBs which can negate ninjutsus unless they have Senjutsu and even if they do, the TSBs can tank high level jutsus as Obito did against BSM and Susanoo during the war. If Madara have himself and some clones use a TSB as a sword for their PS then it's going to cut through Sasuke's PS like butter as Obito did to Sasuke's Susanoo.

Only if Sasuke is draining Madara in a good condition. If he's wounded before hand, much like sealing, Sasuke would drag out the bijus once Madara is injured. The TSBs were only this effective against enemies weaker than Rikkudo level. Against other rikkudo characters, it will be lolstomped. If a BSM TBB and a senjutsu susanoo arrow can damage a shield made by TSBs, a Rikkudo TBB would obliterate it.

Ansatsuken · Jul 30, 2015

Sennin of Logic said:
Sadly, I don't even need to defame these statements. If they think Madara can beat the Ootsutsuki family 1v1, then they need help.

Well no, Madara isn't much stronger than Kaguya arc Naruto and Sasuke at least. Your basis for the Juubi having stronger and more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke is what? The fact that their physical attributes and reaction time are similar to Madara's would imply that Naruto and Sasuke's chakra is comparable to begin with, because if enhanced attributes are proportional to chakra, then they'd have to be close. Naruto was confirmed to have at least equivalent reflexes to Madara, and was considered to have the pinnacle of sensing. This is a large indicator that Naruto's senjutsu quality is at least Madara's equal, and that's all the juubi is. It's senjutsu. Even though Sasuke's performance in speed and reflexes were inferior to Naruto's (implying his senjutsu is weaker), Sasuke is more than capable of fighting Naruto head on, and as such, the difference between Madara's chakra and Sasuke's is not a large one.

Madara didn't have both rinnegans. As Obito didn't use Deva or Preta path either with one rinnegan, it stands to reason that these abilities are restricted outside of 2 rinnegans (Sasuke's being the exception due to having a higher-level rinnegan). Sasuke's rinnegan is superior to the standard rinnegan as evident by the fact that "his eye powers return" shows that he goes from the standard rinnegan to his 6T rinnegan, so to say "both rinnegans are superior to one" is not a good argument.

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Sasuke's rinnegan (and likely mastery) during the time of the last is superior, and his chakra, as evident by his chidrori, is also superior. Therefore, the Last Sasuke is superior in combat to dual rinnegan JJ Madara due to being superior in both factors.

This is right about where you're getting into fanfic. First off, it doesn't matter what Madara would have been had he lived through the Last, as he did not. This is the same as theorizing what Minato or Itachi would have become, and using it as a measure of their strength in a VS matchup.

The rinnnegan's abilities can't be split into multiple bodies as is evident by 2 instances. 1. Nagato's Pain bodies can only use one ability each, and they're degraded. 2. When Madara used wood clones against the kages, his clones did not have the rinnegan. There's no reason to believe that such a combination is possible, and even then, he wouldn't be able to use his full abilities with each, and swarm tactics are against his character.

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If using clones degrades his performance, he will discard them. Madara prefers strong, centralized power.

Only if Sasuke is draining Madara in a good condition. If he's wounded before hand, much like sealing, Sasuke would drag out the bijus once Madara is injured. The TSBs were only this effective against enemies weaker than Rikkudo level. Against other rikkudo characters, it will be lolstomped. If a BSM TBB and a senjutsu susanoo arrow can damage a shield made by TSBs, a Rikkudo TBB would obliterate it.

i dont think Rinnegan clones can used Rinnegan jutsu. They can only use Body Jutsu and not eyes Jutsu.

If tMadara want his clone to use any Six Path power, Madara need to channel his Rinnegan power into one of his chosen clone(Nagato as example). His clone cant perform Rinn tech by itself.

But body jutsu is different.

Sennin of Logic · Jul 30, 2015

az eleon said:
i dont think Rinnegan clones can used Rinnegan jutsu. They can only use Body Jutsu and not eyes Jutsu.

If tMadara want his clone to use any Six Path power, Madara need to channel his Rinnegan power into one of his chosen clone(Nagato as example). His clone cant perform Rinn tech by itself.

But body jutsu is different.

................:| That's pretty much what I said.

Ansatsuken · Jul 30, 2015

But I dont think Sasuke have good firepower/arsenal to damage Juubi jin Madara on 8th Gates Guy level unlike Naruto.

Sasuke's Chidori sword doesnt left any serious effect on Madara's performance but Naruto's Six path Senjutsu Magma FRS attack on Madara seriously damaged him.

For Naruto thanks to his Six Path Senjutsu(Body power) and Tailed Beast power, he able to challenged Madara more effectively.

Madara limbo's Susanoo can be a problem to sasuke. He need to take down 5 PS(Madara PS and 4 limbo PS). Its not an easy job for Sasuke. Madara doesnt need to afraid about his chakra supply as Juubi chakra reserve is massive. All Madara and his limbo need to do is out last Sasuke stamina and chakra reserve by attacking Sasuke persistently and not letting Sasuke to rest.

Its hard for me to see sasuke defeating JJ Madara as he doesnt have firepower and arsenal to deal with someone with Rikudou eyes and Rikudou body power.

Sasuke is lucky because Naruto was not using Kage Bunshin to fight him at VOTE 2.

Its already established that Body power is greater than Eyes power.

xxSAGExx · Jul 30, 2015

Sennin of Logic said:
Sadly, I don't even need to defame these statements. If they think Madara can beat the Ootsutsuki family 1v1, then they need help.

Well no, Madara isn't much stronger than Kaguya arc Naruto and Sasuke at least. Your basis for the Juubi having stronger and more chakra than Naruto and Sasuke is what? The fact that their physical attributes and reaction time are similar to Madara's would imply that Naruto and Sasuke's chakra is comparable to begin with, because if enhanced attributes are proportional to chakra, then they'd have to be close. Naruto was confirmed to have at least equivalent reflexes to Madara, and was considered to have the pinnacle of sensing. This is a large indicator that Naruto's senjutsu quality is at least Madara's equal, and that's all the juubi is. It's senjutsu. Even though Sasuke's performance in speed and reflexes were inferior to Naruto's (implying his senjutsu is weaker), Sasuke is more than capable of fighting Naruto head on, and as such, the difference between Madara's chakra and Sasuke's is not a large one.

Madara didn't have both rinnegans. As Obito didn't use Deva or Preta path either with one rinnegan, it stands to reason that these abilities are restricted outside of 2 rinnegans (Sasuke's being the exception due to having a higher-level rinnegan). Sasuke's rinnegan is superior to the standard rinnegan as evident by the fact that "his eye powers return" shows that he goes from the standard rinnegan to his 6T rinnegan, so to say "both rinnegans are superior to one" is not a good argument.

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Sasuke's rinnegan (and likely mastery) during the time of the last is superior, and his chakra, as evident by his chidrori, is also superior. Therefore, the Last Sasuke is superior in combat to dual rinnegan JJ Madara due to being superior in both factors.

This is right about where you're getting into fanfic. First off, it doesn't matter what Madara would have been had he lived through the Last, as he did not. This is the same as theorizing what Minato or Itachi would have become, and using it as a measure of their strength in a VS matchup.

The rinnnegan's abilities can't be split into multiple bodies as is evident by 2 instances. 1. Nagato's Pain bodies can only use one ability each, and they're degraded. 2. When Madara used wood clones against the kages, his clones did not have the rinnegan. There's no reason to believe that such a combination is possible, and even then, he wouldn't be able to use his full abilities with each, and swarm tactics are against his character.

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If using clones degrades his performance, he will discard them. Madara prefers strong, centralized power.

Only if Sasuke is draining Madara in a good condition. If he's wounded before hand, much like sealing, Sasuke would drag out the bijus once Madara is injured. The TSBs were only this effective against enemies weaker than Rikkudo level. Against other rikkudo characters, it will be lolstomped. If a BSM TBB and a senjutsu susanoo arrow can damage a shield made by TSBs, a Rikkudo TBB would obliterate it.

The fact that the Juubi is made by combining all Bijuus is what I base it on. Madara had Yang Kurama which=Yin Kurama then Bijuus 1-8 there as well. You have no idea how big Hagoromo's chakra reserve was when he gave Naruto and Sasuke each some of his chakra; he still had chakra himself so it wasn't all of his chakra and even then he could have reserves on Hashirama level or stronger but don't see it being on the level of the stronger Bijuus. Naruto has a large reserve while Sasuke has powerful chakra (he has high reserves but not like how Senjus/Uzumaki's do) and Madara was said to be born with powerful chakra and does have huge reserves for an Uchiha. Sasuke chakra increase with EMS, Hashirama cells, and Hagoromo's Yin chakra but Madara has his huge reserve on top of the Juubi's. Also you can't base chakra reserves on a person's physical capabilities or else Sakura would have better speed than Sasuke since she had more chakra than him with her Yin Seal. Shunshin does depend on how much chakra you use but that doesn't mean Madara or Naruto have to use a large amount of their chakra in their Shunshin to be faster than others; Sasuke would need to use more of his chakra than they do since they have far more than he does.

Madara had Rikudo chakra the moment he awakened the Rinnegan and gained Rikudo Senjutsu chakra after becoming the Juubi Jin. Naruto got Rikudo Senjutsu chakra from Hagoromo who got his chakra from his mom who got it from the God Tree. By the time Naruto and Sasuke fought, Madara was most likely running low on chakra as well. Think about it, Obito has been using a ton of the Juubi's chakra then Madara took them after they were extracted and Yang Kurama wasn't exactly at full power. So even though Madara had a stronger Juubi than Obito, he wouldn't be at his full reserve. So JJ Madara was highly likely not at full power nor was he using his strongest jutsus that could have protected him better.

Sasuke chakra itself is around the 1 tail Bijuus at most (War arc) then Hagoromo's Yin chakra added to put him around 2 tail Bijuu chakra. A and Kisame are said to have Bijuu chakra levels, Sasuke doesn't have large reserves like them is why I estimated Sasuke having Bijuu level chakra after his powerups and even then it's not going to be on levels of the stronger Bijuus. Each MS/EMS eye hold some of the jutsus as shown with Itachi saying one eye hold Tsukuyomi, the other Amaterasu, and uses both for Susanoo. Obito used some of the paths with just 1 Rinnegan such as pulling out other's souls and outer path that can revive others. Obito didn't use Pretha path but Madara absorbed chakra from random ninjas. It either each eye holds different jutsus or both holds all of them. Either way, Madara at least had Pretha path yet didn't use it at all after becoming the Juubi Jin even though it would be powered up to a higher level with the Rikudo Senjutsu chakra. He used Susanoo with no eyes and with 1 eye before he became the Juubi Jin yet not once afterwards.

The same way Sasuke's, Naruto's, and Obito's jutsus gotten stronger with Rikudo chakra, so would Madara's. Sasuke's Rinnegan is higher than 1 Rinnegan but not more than both, Obito stated that the true power of the eyes are brought out when you have both

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. Kakashi already said he can increase the power of Chidori using chakra control so Sasuke used more chakra in his Chidori is all, yes his reserve would be higher but it's not going to be on Juubi Jin level when his own reserve isn't going to be on 6-7 tail Bijuu; not even Naruto's reserve is going to be that high, maybe around 3 tails or 4 tails for Naruto. Sasuke destroyed half a meteor while a TSB can destroy a whole forest plus him using Limbo take down the Bijuus when he had 1 eye and was pre-Juubi Jin.

It's not fanfic if it's true, my point isn't about him training since we don't know how they would train; I'm saying he would gain better control over his eyes as he fought them or was around longer had BZ not turned him into Kaguya. Differences is that Nagato spilt the Rinnegan jutsus amongst different bodies and the Rinnegan isn't even his so he can't use its true power, Obito mentions how he did all he did even though he's not the true holder of the 1 Rinnegan and how it's power and chakra was just too much. Madara easily used multi-CT, his Pretha path, Asura path, And Deva path (ST and BT) would all be on similar level or higher. Shadow clones can do whatever the original can do jutsu wise with only TSBs being the exception. Madara's clones were all using Susanoo after all and Naruto in BM made a base Naruto clone so yet he can make BM clones as well so Edo Madara who didn't have the real Rinnegan as the Bijuus pointed out, not making his clones have Rinnegans isn't really an argument since he wasn't serious in that fight and called it child's play.

Lord of Akatsuki · Aug 18, 2015

xxSAGExx said:
The fact that the Juubi is made by combining all Bijuus is what I base it on. Madara had Yang Kurama which=Yin Kurama then Bijuus 1-8 there as well. You have no idea how big Hagoromo's chakra reserve was when he gave Naruto and Sasuke each some of his chakra; he still had chakra himself so it wasn't all of his chakra and even then he could have reserves on Hashirama level or stronger but don't see it being on the level of the stronger Bijuus. Naruto has a large reserve while Sasuke has powerful chakra (he has high reserves but not like how Senjus/Uzumaki's do) and Madara was said to be born with powerful chakra and does have huge reserves for an Uchiha. Sasuke chakra increase with EMS, Hashirama cells, and Hagoromo's Yin chakra but Madara has his huge reserve on top of the Juubi's. Also you can't base chakra reserves on a person's physical capabilities or else Sakura would have better speed than Sasuke since she had more chakra than him with her Yin Seal. Shunshin does depend on how much chakra you use but that doesn't mean Madara or Naruto have to use a large amount of their chakra in their Shunshin to be faster than others; Sasuke would need to use more of his chakra than they do since they have far more than he does.

I'm not going to reply much because this wasn't a debate I participated in, but I will clear up a few things for you.

Bold. LMAO that's the most funniest sh** I've ever heard! Sorry but no. Hagoromo gave them all of his chakra, he had none left after giving them both half of his chakra amount as stated in the Manga. That's why he went to the Hokage's, so they could give him chakra.
His reserves were higher than any Bijuu's (Hashirama's reserves were on par with BSM/BM Naruto who had more chakra than any Bijuu). This is the God of Shinobi and son of Kaguya we're talking about here, even without the Juubi his reserves are phenomenal.
You seem to be confused about something here, Sasuke's wasn't given just Hagoromo's Yin chakra, he was given Hagoromo's chakra, just that, the old Sage's chakra which is both Yin and Yang.
Yet Sasuke was shown to be superior to one eye'd Juubi Madara. That wouldn't be possible unless the chakra he got from Hagoromo is far superior to any chakra Madara got. Which it is considering instead of trying to emulate the Sage's power, Sasuke got it from the source.
Sakura's reserves are no where near someone who bears half of Hagoromo's chakra amount and half of his overall power.

Madara had Rikudo chakra the moment he awakened the Rinnegan and gained Rikudo Senjutsu chakra after becoming the Juubi Jin. Naruto got Rikudo Senjutsu chakra from Hagoromo who got his chakra from his mom who got it from the God Tree. By the time Naruto and Sasuke fought, Madara was most likely running low on chakra as well. Think about it, Obito has been using a ton of the Juubi's chakra then Madara took them after they were extracted and Yang Kurama wasn't exactly at full power. So even though Madara had a stronger Juubi than Obito, he wouldn't be at his full reserve. So JJ Madara was highly likely not at full power nor was he using his strongest jutsus that could have protected him better.

So? BSM Naruto was superior to alive Madara (but weaker than revived Madara), and Sasuke was steadily catching up to Madara's ballpark.

Indeed, and that's why Hagoromo's chakra is far superior to any Juubi Jin. The Juubi's chakra was described as infinite and the Bijuu's reserves was shown to refresh itself so no. Don't try to spout such bs.

Sasuke chakra itself is around the 1 tail Bijuus at most (War arc) then Hagoromo's Yin chakra added to put him around 2 tail Bijuu chakra. A and Kisame are said to have Bijuu chakra levels, Sasuke doesn't have large reserves like them is why I estimated Sasuke having Bijuu level chakra after his powerups and even then it's not going to be on levels of the stronger Bijuus. Each MS/EMS eye hold some of the jutsus as shown with Itachi saying one eye hold Tsukuyomi, the other Amaterasu, and uses both for Susanoo. Obito used some of the paths with just 1 Rinnegan such as pulling out other's souls and outer path that can revive others. Obito didn't use Pretha path but Madara absorbed chakra from random ninjas. It either each eye holds different jutsus or both holds all of them. Either way, Madara at least had Pretha path yet didn't use it at all after becoming the Juubi Jin even though it would be powered up to a higher level with the Rikudo Senjutsu chakra. He used Susanoo with no eyes and with 1 eye before he became the Juubi Jin yet not once afterwards.

The 1 tails had the smallest reserves lol, Sasuke's is on an entire different level. Yes, both A and Kisame were stated to have Bijuu chakra reserves and Sasuke's is far above either of there's.

The same way Sasuke's, Naruto's, and Obito's jutsus gotten stronger with Rikudo chakra, so would Madara's. Sasuke's Rinnegan is higher than 1 Rinnegan but not more than both, Obito stated that the true power of the eyes are brought out when you have both
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. Kakashi already said he can increase the power of Chidori using chakra control so Sasuke used more chakra in his Chidori is all, yes his reserve would be higher but it's not going to be on Juubi Jin level when his own reserve isn't going to be on 6-7 tail Bijuu; not even Naruto's reserve is going to be that high, maybe around 3 tails or 4 tails for Naruto. Sasuke destroyed half a meteor while a TSB can destroy a whole forest plus him using Limbo take down the Bijuus when he had 1 eye and was pre-Juubi Jin.

True, but Naruto and Sasuke's Rikudo Chakra is far superior in amount and quality.
Sasuke's 1 eye'd Six Tomoe Rinnegan equates both. So no, and Obito stated the true power of Madara's Rinnegan was brought out when together in the original user's eyes.

Naruto's reserves are above any Bijuu even without using the cloak form of RSM and just in his base mode (he took a dump on Madara with ease and even overpowered him in base RSM).

Narutohokage324 · Aug 18, 2015

Who revived this thread

Peoples Champ · Aug 18, 2015

Madara need to be sealed, meaning one of them can't solo him by himself. Plus Madara wasn't fighting at full power he was missing one eye: imagine sasuke missing his rinnegan and you will understand.

xxSAGExx · Aug 18, 2015

Lord of Akatsuki said:
I'm not going to reply much because this wasn't a debate I participated in, but I will clear up a few things for you.

Bold. LMAO that's the most funniest sh** I've ever heard! Sorry but no. Hagoromo gave them all of his chakra, he had none left after giving them both half of his chakra amount as stated in the Manga. That's why he went to the Hokage's, so they could give him chakra.
His reserves were higher than any Bijuu's (Hashirama's reserves were on par with BSM/BM Naruto who had more chakra than any Bijuu). This is the God of Shinobi and son of Kaguya we're talking about here, even without the Juubi his reserves are phenomenal.
You seem to be confused about something here, Sasuke's wasn't given just Hagoromo's Yin chakra, he was given Hagoromo's chakra, just that, the old Sage's chakra which is both Yin and Yang.
Yet Sasuke was shown to be superior to one eye'd Juubi Madara. That wouldn't be possible unless the chakra he got from Hagoromo is far superior to any chakra Madara got. Which it is considering instead of trying to emulate the Sage's power, Sasuke got it from the source.
Sakura's reserves are no where near someone who bears half of Hagoromo's chakra amount and half of his overall power.

So? BSM Naruto was superior to alive Madara (but weaker than revived Madara), and Sasuke was steadily catching up to Madara's ballpark.

Indeed, and that's why Hagoromo's chakra is far superior to any Juubi Jin. The Juubi's chakra was described as infinite and the Bijuu's reserves was shown to refresh itself so no. Don't try to spout such bs.

The 1 tails had the smallest reserves lol, Sasuke's is on an entire different level. Yes, both A and Kisame were stated to have Bijuu chakra reserves and Sasuke's is far above either of there's.

True, but Naruto and Sasuke's Rikudo Chakra is far superior in amount and quality.
Sasuke's 1 eye'd Six Tomoe Rinnegan equates both (he had two in Gaiden but it was stated to be a downgrade, and when he regained his full power it reverted to a single Rinnegan eye with Six Tomoe). So no, and Obito stated the true power of Madara's Rinnegan was brought out when together in the original user's eyes.

Naruto's reserves are above any Bijuu even without using the cloak form of RSM and just in his base mode (he took a dump on Madara with ease and even overpowered him in base RSM).

You are wrong on multiple things. Hagoromo said himself that he summoned the past 5 Kages to help him summon Naruto's group back

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he had chakra to summon dead souls back which would be pretty high in chakra amount. All of the Kages helped in the summon, if they gave Hagoromo his chakra then he wouldn't need to use them; none of the 5 Edo Hokage were at full reserve either so if they gave chakra to Hagoromo then they wouldn't keep some since having to little chakra isn't helping anyone. No Hagoromo does not have higher reserves than the Bijuus, he got his chakra from Kaguya who got it from the god tree; Kaguya was the Juubi and it took both Hagoromo and Hamura to beat the Juubi so you can argue that he has half the reserve of the Juubi but Kurama makes up more than half of the Juubi's chakra and the 8 tails has the second highest reserve of the Bijuus.

No Hashirama does not have reserves on par to BM Naruto, if you read the manga then you know that Yang Kurama was out/low on chakra and had to ask Yin Kurama for chakra

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. KM Naruto tried going BM before that and was kicked out because Yang Kurama chakra was out, Yin Kurama didn't give Yang Kurama half its chakra since he needs enough to fight with as well plus Edo Minato was using its chakra before that. Yang Kurama got like 30-45% of Yin Kurama chakra and Edo Hashirama compared his reserve to the amount of chakra that both Yin and Yang Kurama gave too the alliance which would be about 15-25% of their chakra (like 15% from each Kurama). So Hashirama's reserve isn't going to be on par to half of Yang Kurama's reserve. Naruto didn't go BSM until after he gave chakra to the alliance, also he was never at full power when he went BSM in the war.

Chakra is made from both Yin (spiritual energy) and Yang (Physical energy); Hagoromo gave Sasuke his Yin chakra and Naruto his Yang chakra; Hagoromo's yin yang chakra is stronger than just halve. Hagoromo's chakra is not the source, the Juubi is the source since that's where all chakra came from! The Bijuus were not shown replenishing their chakra as it would do or imply whenYang Kurama or the 8 tails did. Obito used a ton of the Bijuus chakra as JJ Obito then they were extracted then they got sealed in Madara shortly after. Madara can most likely replenish his chakra as Kaguya has since the Juubi is basically a vast of natural energy. I said Sasuke's single 6T Rinnegan would be stronger than Madara's single Rinnegan but not stronger than double Rinnegan Madara plus Madara was nerfed; he wasn't using the majority of his strongest jutsus. If Sasuke was defeated without using Amaterasu/Enton, Susanoo, CT, or any Chidori variations; would you say Sasuke was beating at his best or agree that he was nerf?

BSM Naruto had the power but did not have the skills to use that power. Edo Madara, Edo Madara, and Rinnegan Madara can beat War arc BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Madara without eyes pushed EMS Sasuke; Madara's skills are the same as EMS Madara and with no eyes he was overall weaker than EMS Madara since Uchihas power lies within their eyes. The Juubi's chakra is infinite because it's natural energy which surrounds the entire planet and the Bijuus have to actually focus to replenish their chakra fast or else it takes time to normally replenish.

The 1 tails have the lowest amount amongst the Bijuus but it's still more than the majority of ninjas. War arc Sasuke does not have more chakra than most of the Bijuus, he's on low Bijuu level in war and maybe around 3-4th tail Bijuu grown. Uchihas have powerful chakra more than large reserves so his reserve will grow but not by much compared to some Senjus/Uzumakis. You can't say that since Hagoromo's chakra amount was never said to be that high, in fact Sasuke was running out of chakra in VoTE 2 fight even though he used less chakra taxing jutsus than Naruto who was using only the Bijuus chakra while his own reserve was low-out.

Sasuke has 1 Sharingan and 1 Rinnegan in Gaiden not 2 Rinnegans

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. Obito said that Madara said that about the Sharingan first

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then Obito said it about the Rinnegan

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so it's for both doujutsus. Naruto's reserves as an adult such be on levels on high Bijuus like 6-7 but it's not going to be to their max; like it could be equal to 30% of the 6 tails chakra reserve. I don't think you get how high Bijuu chakra reserves are. Naruto reserves are that high because he also has Hashirama DNA which boost his reserves as it did with Danzo, Sasuke, and Madara.

Sennin of Logic · Aug 18, 2015

Di Raizel said:
Who revived this thread

Lord of Akatsuki replied to xxSagexx. Not that I don't appreciate the help.

xxSAGExx said:
The fact that the Juubi is made by combining all Bijuus is what I base it on. Madara had Yang Kurama which=Yin Kurama then Bijuus 1-8 there as well. You have no idea how big Hagoromo's chakra reserve was when he gave Naruto and Sasuke each some of his chakra; he still had chakra himself so it wasn't all of his chakra and even then he could have reserves on Hashirama level or stronger but don't see it being on the level of the stronger Bijuus. Naruto has a large reserve while Sasuke has powerful chakra (he has high reserves but not like how Senjus/Uzumaki's do) and Madara was said to be born with powerful chakra and does have huge reserves for an Uchiha. Sasuke chakra increase with EMS, Hashirama cells, and Hagoromo's Yin chakra but Madara has his huge reserve on top of the Juubi's. Also you can't base chakra reserves on a person's physical capabilities or else Sakura would have better speed than Sasuke since she had more chakra than him with her Yin Seal. Shunshin does depend on how much chakra you use but that doesn't mean Madara or Naruto have to use a large amount of their chakra in their Shunshin to be faster than others; Sasuke would need to use more of his chakra than they do since they have far more than he does.

The reserves for either are unknown. It's pointless to argue about it as the nature of the debate is opinion based, as there's nothing solid for it. The simple fact is this, Kaguya's chakra was split into Hagoromo and Haruma. That alone makes Hagoromo a greater source of chakra than the juubi.

Madara had Rikudo chakra the moment he awakened the Rinnegan and gained Rikudo Senjutsu chakra after becoming the Juubi Jin. Naruto got Rikudo Senjutsu chakra from Hagoromo who got his chakra from his mom who got it from the God Tree. By the time Naruto and Sasuke fought, Madara was most likely running low on chakra as well. Think about it, Obito has been using a ton of the Juubi's chakra then Madara took them after they were extracted and Yang Kurama wasn't exactly at full power. So even though Madara had a stronger Juubi than Obito, he wouldn't be at his full reserve. So JJ Madara was highly likely not at full power nor was he using his strongest jutsus that could have protected him better.

Well no. What I label as "Rikkudo chakra" is what Sasuke and DMS Kakashi had, which Madara pre juubi never had. Your definition of Rikkudo chakra is no different from ordinary chakra (as Madara had no boost). Also, your stamina/weakening argument has little foundation. It's nothing but a "what if" argument. Need I remind you, the entire war arc had a toll on Naruto. So Naruto can take from this card far more than Madara, who was an edo, and then used a stronger juubi.

The same way Sasuke's, Naruto's, and Obito's jutsus gotten stronger with Rikudo chakra, so would Madara's. Sasuke's Rinnegan is higher than 1 Rinnegan but not more than both, Obito stated that the true power of the eyes are brought out when you have both
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. Kakashi already said he can increase the power of Chidori using chakra control so Sasuke used more chakra in his Chidori is all, yes his reserve would be higher but it's not going to be on Juubi Jin level when his own reserve isn't going to be on 6-7 tail Bijuu; not even Naruto's reserve is going to be that high, maybe around 3 tails or 4 tails for Naruto. Sasuke destroyed half a meteor while a TSB can destroy a whole forest plus him using Limbo take down the Bijuus when he had 1 eye and was pre-Juubi Jin.

Obito has absolutely no credibility for Sasuke's rinnegan, as the only rinnegan he knew of was the standard rinnegan.

It's not fanfic if it's true, my point isn't about him training since we don't know how they would train; I'm saying he would gain better control over his eyes as he fought them or was around longer had BZ not turned him into Kaguya. Differences is that Nagato spilt the Rinnegan jutsus amongst different bodies and the Rinnegan isn't even his so he can't use its true power, Obito mentions how he did all he did even though he's not the true holder of the 1 Rinnegan and how it's power and chakra was just too much. Madara easily used multi-CT, his Pretha path, Asura path, And Deva path (ST and BT) would all be on similar level or higher. Shadow clones can do whatever the original can do jutsu wise with only TSBs being the exception. Madara's clones were all using Susanoo after all and Naruto in BM made a base Naruto clone so yet he can make BM clones as well so Edo Madara who didn't have the real Rinnegan as the Bijuus pointed out, not making his clones have Rinnegans isn't really an argument since he wasn't serious in that fight and called it child's play.

Yes, it is fanfic. It never happened in the manga because he died. You're doing a what-if scenario, which is fanfic. Nothing more needs to be said.

xxSAGExx · Aug 18, 2015

Sennin of Logic said:
Lord of Akatsuki replied to xxSagexx. Not that I don't appreciate the help.

The reserves for either are unknown. It's pointless to argue about it as the nature of the debate is opinion based, as there's nothing solid for it. The simple fact is this, Kaguya's chakra was split into Hagoromo and Haruma. That alone makes Hagoromo a greater source of chakra than the juubi.

Well no. What I label as "Rikkudo chakra" is what Sasuke and DMS Kakashi had, which Madara pre juubi never had. Your definition of Rikkudo chakra is no different from ordinary chakra (as Madara had no boost). Also, your stamina/weakening argument has little foundation. It's nothing but a "what if" argument. Need I remind you, the entire war arc had a toll on Naruto. So Naruto can take from this card far more than Madara, who was an edo, and then used a stronger juubi.

Obito has absolutely no credibility for Sasuke's rinnegan, as the only rinnegan he knew of was the standard rinnegan.

Yes, it is fanfic. It never happened in the manga because he died. You're doing a what-if scenario, which is fanfic. Nothing more needs to be said.

True, it is unknown. That makes no sense lol how can Hagoromo have more chakra than the Juubi if he has half Kaguya's chakra? Kaguya is the Juubi as BZ said to Naruto and Sasuke; this is something he said Hagoromo did not know

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and

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. Oonoki, while talking about prefect Jinchuurikis, said a host needs time to grow with the Bijuu to adapt to it and it takes time to even learn control; Madara is new to the power yet was still strong enough to wipe out both Naruto and Sasuke had he not been nerfed.

Wait so you count Rikudo chakra as chakra received from Hagoromo and chakra taken from a Juubi Jin but do not count chakra that was awakened by having both Ashura's and Indra's chakra even though Hagoromo himself called the chakra his own?

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. Madara did receive a boost; his chakra became more powerful as it does with other Uchihas who level up their doujutsus such as leveling up 3T to MS, MS to EMS, and getting the Rinnegan. Obito talked about how he could barely handle the chakra and eye power of just one of Madara's Rinnegan; we never seen Madara Rock both Rinnegans in his prime condition pre-JJ but we saw a little from Edo Madara and Edo's are weaker than their alive counterpart, the Bijuus even mentioned how Edo Madara had fake Rinnegans so they shouldn't worry as much until they realized he had a real Rinnegan.

Sasuke's Rinnegan is still a Rinnegan; is not not referred as anything else but a Rinnegan by Sakura, Sasuke, Hagoromo himself, and Madara. Madara is the one who told Obito about having both eyes awakens the eyes true power; Obito who actually had a Rinnegan and said that he couldn't handle both Rinnegans (meaning he tried too) said this so yes he does have credibility, far more than you or I do. Sasuke only had Hagoromo's Yin chakra which is why he has only 1 Rinnegan, had he got Hagoromo's Yin Yang chakra he would have had double 6T Rinnegans or if he gets Ashura's chakra from Naruto's cells then he'll awakened a second Rinnegan (normal one).

You mean like the fanfic that many Sasuke fans says about Naruto being stronger than Naruto or having all 6 paths when it was never shown or implied? As far as I know he has Deva path, Pretha path, and Ameno; that doesn't mean he can access all paths unless the latest movie shows him using the other paths. Madara gain use of Obito's MS right after inserting it in his eye socket and you don't think he can learn how to use the Rinnegan better as he fights?

Lord of Akatsuki · Aug 18, 2015

xxSAGExx said:
You are wrong on multiple things. Hagoromo said himself that he summoned the past 5 Kages to help him summon Naruto's group back
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he had chakra to summon dead souls back which would be pretty high in chakra amount. All of the Kages helped in the summon, if they gave Hagoromo his chakra then he wouldn't need to use them; none of the 5 Edo Hokage were at full reserve either so if they gave chakra to Hagoromo then they wouldn't keep some since having to little chakra isn't helping anyone. No Hagoromo does not have higher reserves than the Bijuus, he got his chakra from Kaguya who got it from the god tree; Kaguya was the Juubi and it took both Hagoromo and Hamura to beat the Juubi so you can argue that he has half the reserve of the Juubi but Kurama makes up more than half of the Juubi's chakra and the 8 tails has the second highest reserve of the Bijuus.

The Manga stated that he gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of HIS Chakra amount. With both halves gone what does he have left? Nothing.

Hagoromo's reserves are higher than any Bijuu, he's the child of Kaguya.
It took Hagoromo and Hamura to defeat Kaguya as the Juubi, the Juubi that showed up in canon within Madara and Obito is much weaker, so no.
Kaguya's chakra was split between Hagoromo and Hamura, so they have a fair bit of all of the chakra in the world.

No Hashirama does not have reserves on par to BM Naruto, if you read the manga then you know that Yang Kurama was out/low on chakra and had to ask Yin Kurama for chakra
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. KM Naruto tried going BM before that and was kicked out because Yang Kurama chakra was out, Yin Kurama didn't give Yang Kurama half its chakra since he needs enough to fight with as well plus Edo Minato was using its chakra before that. Yang Kurama got like 30-45% of Yin Kurama chakra and Edo Hashirama compared his reserve to the amount of chakra that both Yin and Yang Kurama gave too the alliance which would be about 15-25% of their chakra (like 15% from each Kurama). So Hashirama's reserve isn't going to be on par to half of Yang Kurama's reserve. Naruto didn't go BSM until after he gave chakra to the alliance, also he was never at full power when he went BSM in the war.

Hashirama does have chakra on par with BM Naruto, he stated that full Kurama's chakra is comparable to his, what you're saying is nothing but speculation.

Chakra is made from both Yin (spiritual energy) and Yang (Physical energy); Hagoromo gave Sasuke his Yin chakra and Naruto his Yang chakra; Hagoromo's yin yang chakra is stronger than just halve. Hagoromo's chakra is not the source, the Juubi is the source since that's where all chakra came from! The Bijuus were not shown replenishing their chakra as it would do or imply whenYang Kurama or the 8 tails did. Obito used a ton of the Bijuus chakra as JJ Obito then they were extracted then they got sealed in Madara shortly after. Madara can most likely replenish his chakra as Kaguya has since the Juubi is basically a vast of natural energy. I said Sasuke's single 6T Rinnegan would be stronger than Madara's single Rinnegan but not stronger than double Rinnegan Madara plus Madara was nerfed; he wasn't using the majority of his strongest jutsus. If Sasuke was defeated without using Amaterasu/Enton, Susanoo, CT, or any Chidori variations; would you say Sasuke was beating at his best or agree that he was nerf?

Indeed, that's the basis of Six Paths chakra, which was given to Sasuke and Naruto. No he gave them HIS chakra, nothing else and nothing less. Sasuke got Rinnegan and half of Hagoromo's power. Naruto got RSM and half of Hagoromo's power. Databook states that Hagoromo's power is Yin-Yang release.
Naruto has RSM which has Yin-Yang release. Sasuke has Rinnegan which is a Yin-Yang power. Naruto and Sauske were given half of his chakra amount, not what makes his chakra.
No, the source of chakra is Kaguya, the Juubi is a mere construct that came later in time.

Sasuke's single Rinnegan has the same make-up as two so no, its equal.

BSM Naruto had the power but did not have the skills to use that power. Edo Madara, Edo Madara, and Rinnegan Madara can beat War arc BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Madara without eyes pushed EMS Sasuke; Madara's skills are the same as EMS Madara and with no eyes he was overall weaker than EMS Madara since Uchihas power lies within their eyes. The Juubi's chakra is infinite because it's natural energy which surrounds the entire planet and the Bijuus have to actually focus to replenish their chakra fast or else it takes time to normally replenish.

Edo Madara is not beating BSM Naruto (I already said that revived Madara is stronger). BSM Naruto was on par with Hashirama.
Revived Madara without eyes was still above his EMS self in the past because he was amped by Hashirama's power and could still use his abilities.

The 1 tails have the lowest amount amongst the Bijuus but it's still more than the majority of ninjas. War arc Sasuke does not have more chakra than most of the Bijuus, he's on low Bijuu level in war and maybe around 3-4th tail Bijuu grown. Uchihas have powerful chakra more than large reserves so his reserve will grow but not by much compared to some Senjus/Uzumakis. You can't say that since Hagoromo's chakra amount was never said to be that high, in fact Sasuke was running out of chakra in VoTE 2 fight even though he used less chakra taxing jutsus than Naruto who was using only the Bijuus chakra while his own reserve was low-out.

Sasuke with half of Hagoromo's chakra amount does have a lot more chakra than any Bijuu.
It doesn't need to be stated, just shown.
I guess Sasuke didn't fight a Juubi Jin, than Kaguya, use loads of techniques and powers, then go on to fight against Naruto for a full day and use even more techniques? He was able to spam Chibaku Tensei like Madara did.
That level of chakra is far above the 1 Tails or any of the Tailed Beasts besides Kurama.

Sasuke has 1 Sharingan and 1 Rinnegan in Gaiden not 2 Rinnegans
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. Obito said that Madara said that about the Sharingan first
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then Obito said it about the Rinnegan
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so it's for both doujutsus. Naruto's reserves as an adult such be on levels on high Bijuus like 6-7 but it's not going to be to their max; like it could be equal to 30% of the 6 tails chakra reserve. I don't think you get how high Bijuu chakra reserves are. Naruto reserves are that high because he also has Hashirama DNA which boost his reserves as it did with Danzo, Sasuke, and Madara.

Indeed, I wrote that wrongly.

Naruto's reserves with RSM is above any Bijuu. Hashirama's cells wont boost him that much considering it doesn't have Ashura's chakra in it anymore so no. He doesn't need it to have high reserves.

xxSAGExx · Aug 19, 2015

Lord of Akatsuki said:
The Manga stated that he gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of HIS Chakra. With both halves gone what does he have left? Nothing.

Hagoromo's reserves are higher than any Bijuu, he's the child of Kaguya.
It took Hagoromo and Hamura to defeat Kaguya as the Juubi, the Juubi that showed up in canon within Madara and Obito is much weaker, so no.
Kaguya's chakra was split between Hagoromo and Hamura, so they have a fair bit of all of the chakra in the world.

Hashirama does have chakra on par with BM Naruto, he stated that full Kurama's chakra is comparable to his, what you're saying is nothing but speculation.

Indeed, that's the basis of Six Paths chakra, which was given to Sasuke and Naruto. No he gave them HIS chakra, nothing else and nothing less. Sasuke got Rinnegan and half of Hagoromo's power. Naruto got RSM and half of Hagoromo's power. Databook states that Hagoromo's power is Yin-Yang release and gives it.
Naruto has RSM which has Yin-Yang release. Sasuke has Rinnegan which is a Yin-Yang power. Naruto and Sauske were given half of his chakra amount, not what makes his chakra.
No, the source of chakra is Kaguya, the Juubi is a mere construct that came later in time.

Sasuke's single Rinnegan has the same make-up as two so no, its equal.

Edo Madara is not beating BSM Naruto (I already said that revived Madara is stronger). BSM Naruto was on par with Hashirama.
Revived Madara without eyes was still above his EMS self in the past because he was amped by Hashirama's power and could still use his abilities.

Sasuke with half of Hagoromo's chakra amount does have a lot more chakra than any Bijuu.
It doesn't need to be stated, just shown.
I guess Sasuke didn't fight a Juubi Jin, than Kaguya, use loads of techniques and powers, then go on to fight against Naruto for a full day and use even more techniques? He was able to spam Chibaku Tensei like Madara did.
That level of chakra is far above the 1 Tails or any of the Tailed Beasts besides Kurama.

Indeed, I wrote that wrongly.

Naruto's reserves with RSM is above any Bijuu. Hashirama's cells wont boost him that much considering it doesn't have Ashura's chakra in it anymore so no. He doesn't need it to have high reserves.

Hagoromo said he was going to give them his power, not all of it

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. Naruto said he can sense Hagoromo other half of chakra, other half as in Yin half since he has Yang half just like how Yang Kurama could since his Yin half in Edo Minato

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. Madara's Juubi is only missing Yin Kurama which Yang Kurama matches plus he has Bijuus 1-8 along with Yang Kurama so the Juubi is over half its reserve which means it's more than Hagoromo's reserve plus Madara's own high reserve. Hagoromo said himself he summoned the dead past Kages, does that sound like he was out of chakra? Sakura was implies to be out of chakra yet she pulled a lot of chakra out of nowhere to help Obito save Sasuke.

Speculations? I gave you manga scans of Yang Kurama asking Yin Kurama for chakra and Yin Kurama didn't give him all of his chakra since Edo Minato still had plenty to go BM and then Yin Kurama gave the rest of his chakra to Yang Kurama after Naruto's chakra was absorbed by the God tree. How is that speculation when it's in the manga? Hashirama never said full BM Naruto nor was Naruto ever at full power BM or BSM when the Edo Hokages and Sasuke got there so no that's false on your end. Yin Kurama wasn't even at 100% since Edo Minato have been using his chakra from the moment the other Edo Hokages got to the battlefield so you can argue Yin Kurama did give half its chakra to Yang Kurama which makes them both around 40-45% their reserve then Hashirama compared his reserve to the chakra amount Naruto and Edo Minato gave to the alliance which isn't going to be half their reserve since they need it to fight.

On Wikia they said Hashirama was comparing Naruto's own chakra reserve to his own and I just reread the page and Hashirama did say "he's" which refers to a single person then goes on to talk about the Kyuubi's chakra being shared with everyone by "they" who is Naruto and Minato

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. So you can say Naruto's chakra is on par with Hashirama or the not even half chakra amount the Kuramas gave to the alliance but you can't say full BM when there was no full chakra reserve BM there.

No. Sasuke got Hagoromo's Yin chakra which gave him his Rinnegan and Naruto got Hagoromo's Yang chakra which gave him RSM; they didn't get those power plus chakra, they got those powers because of the chakra. Obito said Indra got the Sage's eyes which gifted him with powerful chakra and spiritual energy while Ashura got the Sage's body which gifted him with lifeforce and physical energy

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. Obito explains that Yin power is spiritual energy and Yang is physical energy

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. Madara got both Indra (Yin) and Ashura (Yang) to awaken Hagoromo's chakra (Yin Yang) which is why he have both Rinnegans. Hagoromo gave Sasuke only his Yin chakra and Naruto only his Yang chakra, that's why Sasuke only has 1 Rinnegan while Naruto only have Rikudo Senjutsu; Madara even said they both only have half the power while he has both. Kaguya got her chakra from the God tree fruit meaning it came from the God tree which means the God tree is the source, not Kaguya.

No, Sasuke Rinnegan has the making of only half of Hagoromo's chakra while Madara has 2 because he had yin and yang. Sasuke got a more potent chakra since it's from Hagoromo but it's not going to have the power that both Rinnegans give the user; Sasuke haven't shown having access to all 6 paths while Madara's Rinnegan has thru Nagato, Obito, and Madara using them. Not beating current Naruto BSM but is beating war arc BSM that Naruto showcased; Naruto was never at full power when he went BSM in the war and how is BSM Naruto beating Edo Madara? Madara uses wood dragon to hold Naruto down as it absorbs his chakra or use wood clones that all use Susanoo or use Pretha path to absorb all of Naruto's attacks. Edo Madara has the Rinnegans and is a sensory type; Edo Madara was already beating BM Naruto, Gai, and Bee without going serious; he was going to capture Yang Kurama not kill Naruto. Kakashi said Naruto surpassed the Hokage after he got RSM not BSM; Naruto lacked mastery over BM and BSM to use it effectively. Put Gaiden Naruto with just half Kurama and he's beating Edo Madara and sealing him up but that's not the case here. Blind Madara isn't going to be as effective as EMS Madara who not only also have Hashirama's cells but his eyes; Madara didn't awaken the Rinnegan until years later so EMS Madara had Hashirama's cells for years.

If Sasuke had more chakra than most Bijuus then he wouldn't have begun to run low on chakra when he did then need to absorb chakra from the Bijuus to continue fighting. Naruto had his own chakra absorbed by the God tree so and used more higher chakra taxing jutsus than Sasuke so had both of them started out at 100% then Naruto would still have his reserve plus Kurama's chakra by the time Sasuke ran out of chakra. A regular FRS uses a ton of chakra, Naruto has been spamming far stronger FRS variations from before Sasuke joined him against Madara to fighting Kaguya alone to fighting Sasuke afterwards. Sasuke used Ameno a bunch (like 6x-7x) , Susanoo (about 5x), Pretha path (absorbed chakra from the Bijuus and Naruto), summoning jutsu, CT and BT, Amaterasu (3x), Indra arrow, Chidori needles via PS and a couple of those are after he absorbed more chakra.

Sasuke went on to fight Madara with Naruto after Naruto used Shunshin, Lava FRS and healed Gai, then Naruto used magnet Rasengan, used yin yang to heal Kakashi's eye, split his chakra into 1/4th to fight Madara's 4 Limbo clones, and used 6 TBB FRS against Madara alone while Sasuke used 3 Ameno, black Chidori, Shunshin, PS against Madara. Against Kaguya: Naruto used clones which split his chakra amongst each, boiling burst, 9 Bijuu FRS, healing Obito, Shunshin (to dodge Kaguya and again to blitz her. Your speed depends on how much chakra you use and Kaguya was faster than Madara), used more clones here and there, gave Obito a ton of chakra to help him save Sasuke, and used CT. Sasuke used PS 3x, Ameno 2x, summoning jutsu, Chidori, Amaterasu/Enton 2x, and CT against Kaguya. After that Sasuke used 10 genjutsus and 9 CT. Then you add what he did in the VoTE 2 fight before he absorbed chakra from the 9 Bijuus and that's basically Sasuke's reserve. This is also not taking into account that Yin Kurama gave all of its chakra to Naruto after the God tree absorbed Naruto's chakra so Yin Kurama was probably not even at full reserves after Naruto got him since it never shown him recharging his chakra so even if he was recharging the chakra for a while, we don't know if he was at 100%.

You don't know how much chakra the 1 tails have unless you can show me Shukaku fight until he's out of chakra to gauge how much chakra he has. I'll go up as high as 2 tails; not its full reserve but on its level of reserve (maybe 40-60% its reserve). If the chakra Hogoromo gave them isn't going to be higher than Bijuus 4-9, if it was then Sasuke would be able to use chakra longer than he did and Naruto wouldn't have started to run out shortly after Sasuke did.

Well of course, Naruto in RSM is Naruto using Rikudo Senjutsu with Yin Kurama's chakra; Yin/Yang Kurama has more chakra than the other Bijuus; Yang Kurama matched the power of 5 Bijuus when they fired off a combined TBB. Senjutsu increases your reserve 1/3rd as much since natural energy has to be balanced with your physical and spiritual energies. Current Naruto has full Kurama plus has a higher reserve himself so he has probably one of the highest reserve in NV bar a few people. Only person who got Hashirama's cells when he had Ashura's chakra was Madara yet it increased Danzo's physical energy as mentioned in the manga, it boosted Obito and Orochimaru so why wouldn't it boost Naruto and Sasuke? Didn't say he needed it, I said it plays a role in it being higher than it would be without it.

Lord of Akatsuki · Aug 19, 2015

xxSAGExx said:
Hagoromo said he was going to give them his power, not all of it
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. Naruto said he can sense Hagoromo other half of chakra, other half as in Yin half since he has Yang half just like how Yang Kurama could since his Yin half in Edo Minato
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. Madara's Juubi is only missing Yin Kurama which Yang Kurama matches plus he has Bijuus 1-8 along with Yang Kurama so the Juubi is over half its reserve which means it's more than Hagoromo's reserve plus Madara's own high reserve. Hagoromo said himself he summoned the dead past Kages, does that sound like he was out of chakra? Sakura was implies to be out of chakra yet she pulled a lot of chakra out of nowhere to help Obito save Sasuke.

No, Hagoromo gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra amount. That means nothing left once its gone.
Hagoromo's chakra is formed from Yin-Yang, there's no splitting it, and he stated that he'd give them his Chakra. Yin and Yang=Hagoromo's chakra, they were given his chakra thus they have his Yin-Yang.

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Once again, we are talking about half of his chakra amount/reserves. Not half of the make-up of his chakra.

Also, Naruto said the other half of his power, not chakra.

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Other half of Sage's power is Rinnegan.

The DB states that Naruto uses Yin-Yang Release which is a product of Hagoromo's chakra. Sasuke has Rinnegan which is gained by getting Hagoromo's chakra, otherwise known as Yin and Yang. Without it you are left with only half of the equation thus no Rinnegan.
Madara's Juubi is also missing Kaguya and most of the worlds chakra.

Hagoromo was given chakra by Hashirama and the other Hokage's.

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There, right there. He stated that 'his chakra was already given away.' That leaves no room for an argument. Manga says it all.

Speculations? I gave you manga scans of Yang Kurama asking Yin Kurama for chakra and Yin Kurama didn't give him all of his chakra since Edo Minato still had plenty to go BM and then Yin Kurama gave the rest of his chakra to Yang Kurama after Naruto's chakra was absorbed by the God tree. How is that speculation when it's in the manga? Hashirama never said full BM Naruto nor was Naruto ever at full power BM or BSM when the Edo Hokages and Sasuke got there so no that's false on your end. Yin Kurama wasn't even at 100% since Edo Minato have been using his chakra from the moment the other Edo Hokages got to the battlefield so you can argue Yin Kurama did give half its chakra to Yang Kurama which makes them both around 40-45% their reserve then Hashirama compared his reserve to the chakra amount Naruto and Edo Minato gave to the alliance which isn't going to be half their reserve since they need it to fight.

Indeed, that's because Yin Kurama didn't give all his chakra away, just a bit of it. Whereas Hagoromo directly stated he'd give Sasuke and Naruto each half of his chakra amount and half of his power.

It was Kyuubi's chakra that was comparable to Hashirama, not Naruto's own.

Both parts of Kurama regain/regenerate chakra, so please stop this ridiculous charade.

On Wikia they said Hashirama was comparing Naruto's own chakra reserve to his own and I just reread the page and Hashirama did say "he's" which refers to a single person then goes on to talk about the Kyuubi's chakra being shared with everyone by "they" who is Naruto and Minato
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. So you can say Naruto's chakra is on par with Hashirama or the not even half chakra amount the Kuramas gave to the alliance but you can't say full BM when there was no full chakra reserve BM there.

My gosh, using Wikia like its a room of facts when they get plenty of things wrong. Not only that but they have a tendency of accepting certain parts of canon and ignoring others. Sure, I'll give you this one, but even if Hashirama compared all of that chakra that Naruto dealt out to the alliance to his own, that was Hashirama in base and without all of his chakra and no longer having Ashura within him.
Still implies Tailed Beast level reserves, in fact, I bet the other Beasts couldn't do that.

No. Sasuke got Hagoromo's Yin chakra which gave him his Rinnegan and Naruto got Hagoromo's Yang chakra which gave him RSM; they didn't get those power plus chakra, they got those powers because of the chakra. Obito said Indra got the Sage's eyes which gifted him with powerful chakra and spiritual energy while Ashura got the Sage's body which gifted him with lifeforce and physical energy
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. Obito explains that Yin power is spiritual energy and Yang is physical energy
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. Madara got both Indra (Yin) and Ashura (Yang) to awaken Hagoromo's chakra (Yin Yang) which is why he have both Rinnegans. Hagoromo gave Sasuke only his Yin chakra and Naruto only his Yang chakra, that's why Sasuke only has 1 Rinnegan while Naruto only have Rikudo Senjutsu; Madara even said they both only have half the power while he has both. Kaguya got her chakra from the God tree fruit meaning it came from the God tree which means the God tree is the source, not Kaguya.

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'In other words, Ashura's chakra and Indra's chakra had been fused into one vessel. This ultimately led him to my chakra's power. It had awakened the Rinnegan.'

Indra's chakra equals Yin, and Ashura's chakra Yang, together, this creates Hagoromo's chakra and forms the Rinnegan.
Hagoromo stated that his chakra (Yin and Yang formed into one), creates the Rinnegan. That, my friend, is canon and backed up by Databook and is from the word of god, and has been stated and implied throughout the manga even before this.
Everything you said is fan-made and has no proof behind it. Sasuke's Rinnegan even if one eye was still superior to Madara's by a long shot and has a higher evolution.

Yes, Madara said that they have half of the Sage's power which is Rinnegan and RSM, not Yin and Yang, Senjutsu isn't even a Yang power considering its created by combining Yin and Yang (Spiritual and Physical energy) together with natural energy. You can't have Rikudou Senjutsu without Six Paths chakra which in the first place is the combination of Yin and Yang.

Sasuke and Naruto were granted powers directly from Hagoromo whereas Indra and Ashura inherited a downgraded version of his chakra and never had his true power or chakra. Well, Ashura was given power directly from Hagoromo at a much later date which he used in his battle against his brother (RSM).

No, Kaguya got her chakra from the Chakra Fruit, which is not the God Tree itself, and the Manga refers to Kaguya as the progenitor/originator of chakra, along with the Databook.

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From the Databook on Kaguya.
'Ever since "humans" were given form, they have fought each other and walked in a world of war. The earth was stained with blood, and as if it were absorbing that blood for nourishment, the Shinju took root in the earth. Eventually the Shinju bore a single fruit, and a certain clan came from another world seeking that fruit: the Otsutsuki clan. Kaguya, leader of the Otsutsuki, ate the fruit and became the progenitor of all chakra, and with her absolute power brought peace to the world in an instant.

After ending the turbulent era, she became known as the Rabbit Goddess and received the blessing of the people, giving birth to twins. But after that, Kaguya would occasionally use harsh means to rule the people as a dictator. The Byakugan, Sharingan, and Infinite Tsukuyomi - the people feared and respected the jutsu Kaguya wielded. Eventually, the "Rabbit Goddess" became known as a demon instead. And then, Kaguya became ruled by her desire to make all chakra her own.

To make all chakra one - Kaguya's desire eventually turned on Hagoromo and Hamura, her own twin sons with whom she had split her chakra. Kaguya formed a plan, and in order to take in all chakra, fused with the Shinju and battled against her twin sons.'

The Databook even refers to the Shinju and its fruit as different entities entirely.

No, Sasuke Rinnegan has the making of only half of Hagoromo's chakra while Madara has 2 because he had yin and yang. Sasuke got a more potent chakra since it's from Hagoromo but it's not going to have the power that both Rinnegans give the user; Sasuke haven't shown having access to all 6 paths while Madara's Rinnegan has thru Nagato, Obito, and Madara using them. Not beating current Naruto BSM but is beating war arc BSM that Naruto showcased; Naruto was never at full power when he went BSM in the war and how is BSM Naruto beating Edo Madara? Madara uses wood dragon to hold Naruto down as it absorbs his chakra or use wood clones that all use Susanoo or use Pretha path to absorb all of Naruto's attacks. Edo Madara has the Rinnegans and is a sensory type; Edo Madara was already beating BM Naruto, Gai, and Bee without going serious; he was going to capture Yang Kurama not kill Naruto. Kakashi said Naruto surpassed the Hokage after he got RSM not BSM; Naruto lacked mastery over BM and BSM to use it effectively. Put Gaiden Naruto with just half Kurama and he's beating Edo Madara and sealing him up but that's not the case here. Blind Madara isn't going to be as effective as EMS Madara who not only also have Hashirama's cells but his eyes; Madara didn't awaken the Rinnegan until years later so EMS Madara had Hashirama's cells for years.

Half of Hagoromo's chakra amount (half of Hagoromo's chakra amount still means half of the Yin-Yang chakra), not the make-up of his chakra. All three, Naruto, Sasuke and Madara all have Yin and Yang. Madara just got lucky and has both powers, RSM and Rinnegan. His RSM even came from the Juubi, not because of non-existent Yang connection/power that he already had when he stole Hashirama's cells who was alive at the time.
Databook even states Naruto has the Rikudou powers of Yin-Yang release which is Hagoromo's chakra.

Sasuke doesn't need to, he still showed Chibaku Tensei (a Ying Yang combining ability) and Petra Path, Madara showed only one also, does that mean he doesn't have them all? Just because Nagato showed all doesn't mean Madara can. Of course, Madara can use it, its not that much of a stretch, but there is such a thing as perhaps Nagato learnt those abilities because he had it longer and Madara didn't... :hmm:

It was mentioned that Naruto was on Hashirama's level before RSM, so no.

That later part is irrelevant.

If Sasuke had more chakra than most Bijuus then he wouldn't have begun to run low on chakra when he did then need to absorb chakra from the Bijuus to continue fighting. Naruto had his own chakra absorbed by the God tree so and used more higher chakra taxing jutsus than Sasuke so had both of them started out at 100% then Naruto would still have his reserve plus Kurama's chakra by the time Sasuke ran out of chakra. A regular FRS uses a ton of chakra, Naruto has been spamming far stronger FRS variations from before Sasuke joined him against Madara to fighting Kaguya alone to fighting Sasuke afterwards. Sasuke used Ameno a bunch (like 6x-7x) , Susanoo (about 5x), Pretha path (absorbed chakra from the Bijuus and Naruto), summoning jutsu, CT and BT, Amaterasu (3x), Indra arrow, Chidori needles via PS and a couple of those are after he absorbed more chakra.

You mean the chakra he had been using for hours on end right? He still had chakra left and showed no exhaustion, the reason why he needed the Bijuu was because Naruto was still simply stronger than him.
Nagato used one Chibaku tensei and nearly died. Sasuke used nine Chibaku Tensei's and didn't break a sweat. Before using Chibaku Tensei he had conjured PS several times; against Madara, and against Kaguya. Keep in mind he and Naruto had their chakra drained from them by both Kaguya & Black Zetsu; yet despite this Sasuke was able to fight Naruto soon afterwards for an entire day.

Naruto has more chakra because he has Nine Tailed beasts chakra plus his own and Hagoromo's.

Amenotejikara was stated to be a very draining technique, I don't know why you are bringing it up.

Sasuke went on to fight Madara with Naruto after Naruto used Shunshin, Lava FRS and healed Gai, then Naruto used magnet Rasengan, used yin yang to heal Kakashi's eye, split his chakra into 1/4th to fight Madara's 4 Limbo clones, and used 6 TBB FRS against Madara alone while Sasuke used 3 Ameno, black Chidori, Shunshin, PS against Madara. Against Kaguya: Naruto used clones which split his chakra amongst each, boiling burst, 9 Bijuu FRS, healing Obito, Shunshin (to dodge Kaguya and again to blitz her. Your speed depends on how much chakra you use and Kaguya was faster than Madara), used more clones here and there, gave Obito a ton of chakra to help him save Sasuke, and used CT. Sasuke used PS 3x, Ameno 2x, summoning jutsu, Chidori, Amaterasu/Enton 2x, and CT against Kaguya. After that Sasuke used 10 genjutsus and 9 CT. Then you add what he did in the VoTE 2 fight before he absorbed chakra from the 9 Bijuus and that's basically Sasuke's reserve. This is also not taking into account that Yin Kurama gave all of its chakra to Naruto after the God tree absorbed Naruto's chakra so Yin Kurama was probably not even at full reserves after Naruto got him since it never shown him recharging his chakra so even if he was recharging the chakra for a while, we don't know if he was at 100%.

Why the **** are you still mentioning Naruto in this? The ****? What does Naruto using up more chakra then Sasuke have to do with Sasuke having Tailed Beast reserves right up there with Kurama?

All of those feats on Naruto's end was because of RSM and Hagoromo's power that was enhanced further by the Bijuu.

My ****ing gosh, you finally admitted Naruto has Yin-Yang release. Now please stop.

You don't know how much chakra the 1 tails have unless you can show me Shukaku fight until he's out of chakra to gauge how much chakra he has. I'll go up as high as 2 tails; not its full reserve but on its level of reserve (maybe 40-60% its reserve). If the chakra Hogoromo gave them isn't going to be higher than Bijuus 4-9, if it was then Sasuke would be able to use chakra longer than he did and Naruto wouldn't have started to run out shortly after Sasuke did.

We do know how easily most of the other beasts were trampled on by Kurama and later we were shown Gyuki was definitely stronger but not by the ridiculous amount that Kurama was, then we were shown the extent of Gyuki's chakra which I will add pales in comparison to Kurama's which then pales in comparison to both Naruto's and Sasuke's.

You seem to have forgotten the team effort between Naruto and Sasuke with the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei that had so much power that it could even seal Kaguya.

Nagato had Bijuu reserves and he still could barely handle making one Chibaku Tensei (he used to have even more reserves but lost them to the Gedo Mazo).

Well of course, Naruto in RSM is Naruto using Rikudo Senjutsu with Yin Kurama's chakra; Yin/Yang Kurama has more chakra than the other Bijuus; Yang Kurama matched the power of 5 Bijuus when they fired off a combined TBB. Senjutsu increases your reserve 1/3rd as much since natural energy has to be balanced with your physical and spiritual energies. Current Naruto has full Kurama plus has a higher reserve himself so he has probably one of the highest reserve in NV bar a few people. Only person who got Hashirama's cells when he had Ashura's chakra was Madara yet it increased Danzo's physical energy as mentioned in the manga, it boosted Obito and Orochimaru so why wouldn't it boost Naruto and Sasuke? Didn't say he needed it, I said it plays a role in it being higher than it would be without it.

Naruto's reserves are still higher even without the tailed beats, besides perhaps Kurama's own. Rikudou Senjutsu amps chakra further then the older one does, please note that Naruto also has the power to draw on all of the worlds natural energy which is more chakra than the Bijuu were shown to dish out.

It wont boost Sasuke since he doesn't have Hashirama cells (the moment when Kabuto healed him has been called into question and the actual proper translation makes no mention of giving Sasuke Hashirama's cells, rather Kabuto said he used his studies of Hashirama's DNA to heal Sasuke, and made no mention of actually implanting it).

As for Naruto, sure, it might give a slight boost but not all that much since his own cells are now superior considering he is Ashura's current Transmigrant.

veggetta13 · Aug 19, 2015

Pirate King said:
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madara solos both high dif

says the guy wearing a dna implant on his chest

Team7Represent · Aug 19, 2015

Lord of Akatsuki said:
No, Hagoromo gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra amount. That means nothing left once its gone.
Hagoromo's chakra is formed from Yin-Yang, there's no splitting it, and he stated that he'd give them his Chakra. Yin and Yang=Hagoromo's chakra, they were given his chakra thus they have his Yin-Yang.

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Once again, we are talking about half of his chakra amount/reserves. Not half of the make-up of his chakra.

Also, Naruto said the other half of his power, not chakra.

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Other half of Sage's power is Rinnegan.

The DB states that Naruto uses Yin-Yang Release which is a product of Hagoromo's chakra. Sasuke has Rinnegan which is gained by getting Hagoromo's chakra, otherwise known as Yin and Yang. Without it you are left with only half of the equation thus no Rinnegan.
Madara's Juubi is also missing Kaguya and most of the worlds chakra.

Hagoromo was given chakra by Hashirama and the other Hokage's.

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There, right there. He stated that 'his chakra was already given away.' That leaves no room for an argument. Manga says it all.

Indeed, that's because Yin Kurama didn't give all his chakra away, just a bit of it. Whereas Hagoromo directly stated he'd give Sasuke and Naruto each half of his chakra amount and half of his power.

It was Kyuubi's chakra that was comparable to Hashirama, not Naruto's own.

Both parts of Kurama regain/regenerate chakra, so please stop this ridiculous charade.

My gosh, using Wikia like its a room of facts when they get plenty of things wrong. Not only that but they have a tendency of accepting certain parts of canon and ignoring others. Sure, I'll give you this one, but even if Hashirama compared all of that chakra that Naruto dealt out to the alliance to his own, that was Hashirama in base and without all of his chakra and no longer having Ashura within him.
Still implies Tailed Beast level reserves, in fact, I bet the other Beasts couldn't do that.

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'In other words, Ashura's chakra and Indra's chakra had been fused into one vessel. This ultimately led him to my chakra's power. It had awakened the Rinnegan.'

Indra's chakra equals Yin, and Ashura's chakra Yang, together, this creates Hagoromo's chakra and forms the Rinnegan.
Hagoromo stated that his chakra (Yin and Yang formed into one), creates the Rinnegan. That, my friend, is canon and backed up by Databook and is from the word of god, and has been stated and implied throughout the manga even before this.
Everything you said is fan-made and has no proof behind it. Sasuke's Rinnegan even if one eye was still superior to Madara's by a long shot and has a higher evolution.

Yes, Madara said that they have half of the Sage's power which is Rinnegan and RSM, not Yin and Yang, Senjutsu isn't even a Yang power considering its created by combining Yin and Yang (Spiritual and Physical energy) together with natural energy. You can't have Rikudou Senjutsu without Six Paths chakra which in the first place is the combination of Yin and Yang.

Sasuke and Naruto were granted powers directly from Hagoromo whereas Indra and Ashura inherited a downgraded version of his chakra and never had his true power or chakra. Well, Ashura was given power directly from Hagoromo at a much later date which he used in his battle against his brother (RSM).

No, Kaguya got her chakra from the Chakra Fruit, which is not the God Tree itself, and the Manga refers to Kaguya as the progenitor/originator of chakra, along with the Databook.

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From the Databook on Kaguya.
'Ever since "humans" were given form, they have fought each other and walked in a world of war. The earth was stained with blood, and as if it were absorbing that blood for nourishment, the Shinju took root in the earth. Eventually the Shinju bore a single fruit, and a certain clan came from another world seeking that fruit: the Otsutsuki clan. Kaguya, leader of the Otsutsuki, ate the fruit and became the progenitor of all chakra, and with her absolute power brought peace to the world in an instant.

After ending the turbulent era, she became known as the Rabbit Goddess and received the blessing of the people, giving birth to twins. But after that, Kaguya would occasionally use harsh means to rule the people as a dictator. The Byakugan, Sharingan, and Infinite Tsukuyomi - the people feared and respected the jutsu Kaguya wielded. Eventually, the "Rabbit Goddess" became known as a demon instead. And then, Kaguya became ruled by her desire to make all chakra her own.

To make all chakra one - Kaguya's desire eventually turned on Hagoromo and Hamura, her own twin sons with whom she had split her chakra. Kaguya formed a plan, and in order to take in all chakra, fused with the Shinju and battled against her twin sons.'

The Databook even refers to the Shinju and its fruit as different entities entirely.

Half of Hagoromo's chakra amount (half of Hagoromo's chakra amount still means half of the Yin-Yang chakra), not the make-up of his chakra. All three, Naruto, Sasuke and Madara all have Yin and Yang. Madara just got lucky and has both powers, RSM and Rinnegan. His RSM even came from the Juubi, not because of non-existent Yang connection/power that he already had when he stole Hashirama's cells who was alive at the time.
Databook even states Naruto has the Rikudou powers of Yin-Yang release which is Hagoromo's chakra.

Sasuke doesn't need to, he still showed Chibaku Tensei (a Ying Yang combining ability) and Petra Path, Madara showed only one also, does that mean he doesn't have them all? Just because Nagato showed all doesn't mean Madara can. Of course, Madara can use it, its not that much of a stretch, but there is such a thing as perhaps Nagato learnt those abilities because he had it longer and Madara didn't... :hmm:

It was mentioned that Naruto was on Hashirama's level before RSM, so no.

That later part is irrelevant.

You mean the chakra he had been using for hours on end right? He still had chakra left and showed no exhaustion, the reason why he needed the Bijuu was because Naruto was still simply stronger than him.
Nagato used one Chibaku tensei and nearly died. Sasuke used nine Chibaku Tensei's and didn't break a sweat. Before using Chibaku Tensei he had conjured PS several times; against Madara, and against Kaguya. Keep in mind he and Naruto had their chakra drained from them by both Kaguya & Black Zetsu; yet despite this Sasuke was able to fight Naruto soon afterwards for an entire day.

Naruto has more chakra because he has Nine Tailed beasts chakra plus his own and Hagoromo's.

Amenotejikara was stated to be a very draining technique, I don't know why you are bringing it up.

Why the **** are you still mentioning Naruto in this? The ****? What does Naruto using up more chakra then Sasuke have to do with Sasuke having Tailed Beast reserves right up there with Kurama?

All of those feats on Naruto's end was because of RSM and Hagoromo's power that was enhanced further by the Bijuu.

My ****ing gosh, you finally admitted Naruto has Yin-Yang release. Now please stop.

We do know how easily most of the other beasts were trampled on by Kurama and later we were shown Gyuki was definitely stronger but not by the ridiculous amount that Kurama was, then we were shown the extent of Gyuki's chakra which I will add pales in comparison to Kurama's which then pales in comparison to both Naruto's and Sasuke's.

You seem to have forgotten the team effort between Naruto and Sasuke with the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei that had so much power that it could even seal Kaguya.

Nagato had Bijuu reserves and he still could barely handle making one Chibaku Tensei (he used to have even more reserves but lost them to the Gedo Mazo).

Naruto's reserves are still higher even without the tailed beats, besides perhaps Kurama's own. Rikudou Senjutsu amps chakra further then the older one does, please note that Naruto also has the power to draw on all of the worlds natural energy which is more chakra than the Bijuu were shown to dish out.

It wont boost Sasuke since he doesn't have Hashirama cells (the moment when Kabuto healed him has been called into question and the actual proper translation makes no mention of giving Sasuke Hashirama's cells, rather Kabuto said he used his studies of Hashirama's DNA to heal Sasuke, and made no mention of actually implanting it).

As for Naruto, sure, it might give a slight boost but not all that much since his own cells are now superior considering he is Ashura's current Transmigrant.

Safe to say you poned the shit out of him LoA!!! :heh:

Natsu Shazneel · Aug 19, 2015

I believe I have now seen the wall of china.

Establishing why Madara is not stronger than Naruto or Sasuke's strongest forms

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