Establishing Why K11 > Tsunade

[Tazzilla88]

It's amazing how many feats and power ups you gave Katsuya, of which she has never shown.

As far as her splitting herself 11 times for each of K11, manga evidence please? She has only shown to disperse into hundreds-thousands human sized minis, and from those minis disperse into palm sized minis.

If she could accomplish what you just said, you think she wouldn't of done it here? It would of made a lot more sense for her to split herself into 10 or so bigger versions to not only escape Mandas grip, but attack him with acid, as he was being occupied by gamabunta.

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You also didn't want to accept Shino being able to use poison bugs, because he hasn't shown to use it(at all); but you're saying Katsuya can split into her minis and still spit acid which she hasn't shown to be able to do either. It's really not all that logical either, as Katsuya has to divide her chakra into those hundreds-thousands of minis. In fact, in her full form Katsuya offered Tsunade to put her back together, which is proof she has healing abilities without a needed supply of chakra from Tsunade. However, in her mini form, she had to rely on Tsunade to supply the chakra for her to perform healing abilities.
All this should of established that Katsuya minis aren't even a threat.

Katsuya hasn't shown to be very offensive whats so ever. The only thing she has in that department is her acid, which she has only shown to be able to use in her full form. Not to mention, in this form, she hasn't shown any type of mobility.

Katsuyas acid is easily blown back at her by BM Choji, who is also give or take, the same size as Katsuya.

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Adding Kibas Double Headed Wolf, Shinos bugs, and TenTens ninja tools is enough to occupy Katsuya. All the while Tsunade is battling Lee, Neji, and Shikamaru, and will be sealed by Sai soon as she gets caught by shadow possession.

That post is just so incredibly incoherent. So it doesn't make sense that a being capable of splitting and reforming as she pleases can split into large forms of minis, or even reform into those large minis? Explain to me why that would even remotely occur? That's like me saying I can take apart every piece from my body and put it all back together, but I can't take my hand off. It doesn't follow. There is no logical reason to say that she cannot form into larger versions of herself.
The difference between your Katsuyu example and the Shino argument above, is spitting acid is a known ability of Katsuyu, whereas using poisonous insects was never shown to be one of Shino's abilities. It's an ability of his clan the same way the Reaper Death Seal is from the Uzumaki clan but the doesn't mean Karin knows how to perform it. Katsuyu as far as we've been able to perceive thus far is similar to her full self when in a miniature form. By similar I'm using the math definition that relates to ratios. So that she is the same in every fashion except that she is smaller. It would only make sense then that with a divided chakra the amount of acid varies not necessarily the acid producing powers all together. As the spitting of acid is one of her innate abilities.
Furthermore, dividing Katsuyu into hundreds of human sized minis that could divide exponentially more times is not to your favor in this debate. Because now instead of having to deal with one large version of katsuyu each member of the k11 would not have hundreds to deal with which would force them to expend all of their chakra in a failed attempt to stop her. And at that point BM Chouji would be completely useless against such small opponents whereas they can enter crevices and suffocate him by filling his eso****us and lungs. Likewise they can just absorb other members of the k11. In fact Neji would be completely helpless against hundreds of katsuyu's as he has nothing to serve as a permanent deterrant. He at best could stall but he'd be overrun with numbers. And if you used the BM Chouji can just blow them away argument then you must also realize the consequence of being able to blow away such heavy objects is that he would also blow away his teammates. And in a 1 vs 1 against Tsunade he gets fodderized.

Also Double headed wolf does absolutely nothing meaningful to katsuyu it is merely a waste of chakra on Kiba's part. The same is true of Ten Ten's weapons. Shino's bug may be of some worth but once again it only makes logical sense that Katsuyu would still possess acid. Therefore Shino's bugs would likely fall to excess amounts of that liquid. Furthermore, because we've never seen Katsuyu reaching her limit to claim that'd she run out of chakra would be foolhardy as you can't really say how much she has until she runs out.Whereas, we also know that if necessary outside of a seal Tsunade can still give her chakra.
And to answer your question regarding the sannin fight. No it makes much less sense that Katsuyu would divide into 10 slugs to fight Manda, when Gamabunta, Jiraiya, and Tsunade were serving as her back up. In fact, the better strategy would be to let yourself be eaten at which point you melt Manda inside out.
Also you can't conclusively say that Katsuyu needed to rely on Tsunade's chakra. You can say that she did rely on it but to say the she had to when it's very clear she has a sizeable amount of chakra is foolish.
That leaves Katsuyu with a three pronged method of attack. Absorbing the enemy leaving them immobile, melting the enemy killing them, or crushing the enemy killing them or leaving them immobile. And these are abilities possessed by the minis. Your argumentation is very strange.
So are you implying that full sized Katsuyu is incapable of moving she just sits there and can do nothing more. That's absurd. We've not seen Baku move but we can deduce that Baku is capable of such things.

 

[Unorthodox]

First and foremost, no fanon will be taken into account on this thread. Statements like "Shes a Sanin! no way a bunch of Chunin/Jonin can do anything to her!" will be ignored.
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Composition of the K11 in this thread:

Sakura, Kiba, Shino, Hinata, Ino, Shikamaru, Choji, Neji, Lee, Ten-Ten, Sai

Conditions:

Everyone is fully rested and healthy. Mindset is Bloodlusted but calm and fight in character.

Intel:

Full

Location:

Atop the Hokage Mansion

Distance:

Tsunade starts at the railing facing the cluster of the the K11 that stands in the middle of the ring. The combatants are allowed to move about the entire village as they please without worry of damage to the buildings. Civilians have been evacuated.


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Explanation:

Now, Im going to be doing this a bit diffrently than before in my other threads. Since they're so many combatants this time and Range isn't something that accounted for since its a group effort. I'll be more or less showing how the K11 will take this and cover as much ground on Tsunade's abilities as possible and how they counter them.


In this fight Neji, Kiba, and Lee will be the main offensive against Tsunade. Choji will be the main Deterant of Katsuya if she is summoned, otherwise Choji will also be fighting Tsunade. The other ninja's have their roles to play, Sakura will be there for healing, Shikamaru will be looking for an opening to land Kagemane, Ten-Ten will be constantly harrasing Tusnade with Kunai and ninja tools to coax a mistake out of her, Shino will play a double role in using countless insects to feed on her chakra and also poison her with poisones insect which in turn will also burn through her chakra faster to remove the poison and also allow the others to attack her. Ino will be playing piggyback off of Shikamaru's Justu and be wainting for him to land Kagemane to combo into ****enshin. Ino could also provide basic medical treatment if Sakura is tied up.

Lastly, Sai plays a crucial role here. He also plays back up like other ninja's to constantly force Tsunade to tank attacks and heal, but he brings to the table one feat of speed that Tsunade cannot counter.

I will now go into each individuals jobs in this battle and go more in-depth than above.

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Sakura:In a word, Healing. She will be there to to heal any possible injuries that will be inflicted upon her team. If the chance arrives, she can use her own Chakra enhanced Strength to land a blow on Tsunade. Harrasment with exploding tags is also a possibility. Also, her extensive training with Tsunade gives her a leg up on dodging Tsuande's attacks. During training, Tsunade even said she wasn't holding back when it came to landing a blow. She will be familiar with the way Tsunade moves when she wants to attack a certain way, so she can warn the others to jump if HKoP is on the way, or if Tsunade is going to try shattering the ground.

Kiba:One of the Frontline fighters in this battle. Gatsuuga and Tsuuga will his main tools in attacking Tsunade. This will go unabided due to the constant other danger's she'll have to deal with from the other Ninja's. Kiba's main job is to keep landing blows on Tsunade so she has to keep burning chakra to heal. Garoga would be will be used whenever needed and will burn more of Tsunade's Chakra than the normal Tsuugas.

Shino:Shino plays but one role in this battle, and that is to keep Tsunade under a hail of insects. These insects will force her to burn yet even more chakra than the massive amount she is going to need to keep healing. His secondary objective is to use poisonous insects to ail her. She will have to extract these poison's herself which wont be possible while constantly fighting off Neji, Kiba, and Lee and all the harrasment of other attacks.

Hinata: Hinata plays an odd role in this battle. She lacks the physical capabilities of going hand to hand with Tsunade like some of the others, but it is her only way of fighting. So, in this battle her main objective is the keep back far enough that she isn't engagin Tsunade, but close enough that she can jump in and attack when needed. She can also harrass Tsunade with Air Palm or combo this with Neji's Air Palm to create a stronger single strike. When she jumps in, it must be when she is absolutely sure that she is guarenteed hit and she must target vital organs to ensure that Tsunade burns as much Chakra as possible from healing this wound.

Ino:Ino's main role will be basic medical attention, but her main offensive measure against Tsunade is ****enshin. She wont have to worry much about when to land it, since Shikamaru essentially will do that for her. If Ino See's that Shikamaru has landed Kagemane, she will launch ****enshin and posses her. She from there will give the rest of the team to attack. (Choji's Butterly Bomb is a good choice)

Shikamaru:Strategy is Shikmaru's main role in this battle. He will be in the rear looking for a chance to land Kagemane (easily accomplishable since she will be distracted with the myriad of other things) This reprieve from the actual fight will allow Shikamaru to formulate a plan unhindered (although its likely it wont be needed). Basic exploding tags could also be used as a deterant.

Choji:Summon control is Choji's part to play in this fight. If Tsunade manages to release Katsuya (not a guarenteed) then Choji will be the one to deal with her until the Coup de' grace will landed on Tsunade. His butterfly bomb is in turn, the perfect blow to end Tsunade. Largely due to Tsunade's body not being able to funtion if her brain is destroyed, in turn making Byakugo useless.

Neji:Neji along with Lee, are the only one's that will be trading blows in the traditional fashion with Tsunade. His main role is to shut down her chakra points, essentailly shutting down her ability to heal even with byakugo. Secondary objective is to attack vital organs to wittle her chakra down even further.

Neji more than anyone else in the K11, is able to go hand to hand with Tsunade. With the Byakugan he can see her chakra and will give him a heads up when he see's her focusing chakra in her palm or foot. Tsunade's Straightforward fighting style will also be a major downfall when combined with her gap in speed compared to Neji. Allowing him easy openings to land blows on the tenketsu or vital organs.

Lee: Lee in base's objective is little more than to keep her attention even further seperated to allow for the myriad of other jutsu's to land. When he see's her slowing down and getting tired, He will activate Gates and land his ownly meaningfull way to harm her in Ura Renge. Ura Renge is also meant just to wittle down her stamina.

Ten-Ten: Ten-Ten has one role and that is to constantly keep the ninja tools coming to, like others, wittle down her chakra and keep her distracted so other attacks can land that have the same purpose.


Sai:Sai as said earlier in the OP plays a key role. His paintings are just another form of harrasement, but he has one thing that can set up an unavoidable opening for others with his attack that in any circumstance is also unavoidable by any means.

The two scans below show one of Sai's Blitze's on Ninja far faster than Tsunade. The Ninja's in question, one of which was able to dodge multiple Hebi Sasuke blitzes, was absolutely blitzed in every fashion of the word. These two ninja's were completely incapable of even turning their heads before the attack landed, and since the attack went under these ninja, this makes this the perfect counter to HKoP

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All in all, The K11 have this wrapped up neatly.

agree

 

[fastrthnwind]

That post is just so incredibly incoherent. So it doesn't make sense that a being capable of splitting and reforming as she pleases can split into large forms of minis, or even reform into those large minis? Explain to me why that would even remotely occur? That's like me saying I can take apart every piece from my body and put it all back together, but I can't take my hand off. It doesn't follow. There is no logical reason to say that she cannot form into larger versions of herself.
The difference between your Katsuyu example and the Shino argument above, is spitting acid is a known ability of Katsuyu, whereas using poisonous insects was never shown to be one of Shino's abilities. It's an ability of his clan the same way the Reaper Death Seal is from the Uzumaki clan but the doesn't mean Karin knows how to perform it. Katsuyu as far as we've been able to perceive thus far is similar to her full self when in a miniature form. By similar I'm using the math definition that relates to ratios. So that she is the same in every fashion except that she is smaller. It would only make sense then that with a divided chakra the amount of acid varies not necessarily the acid producing powers all together. As the spitting of acid is one of her innate abilities.
Furthermore, dividing Katsuyu into hundreds of human sized minis that could divide exponentially more times is not to your favor in this debate. Because now instead of having to deal with one large version of katsuyu each member of the k11 would not have hundreds to deal with which would force them to expend all of their chakra in a failed attempt to stop her. And at that point BM Chouji would be completely useless against such small opponents whereas they can enter crevices and suffocate him by filling his eso****us and lungs. Likewise they can just absorb other members of the k11. In fact Neji would be completely helpless against hundreds of katsuyu's as he has nothing to serve as a permanent deterrant. He at best could stall but he'd be overrun with numbers. And if you used the BM Chouji can just blow them away argument then you must also realize the consequence of being able to blow away such heavy objects is that he would also blow away his teammates. And in a 1 vs 1 against Tsunade he gets fodderized.

Also Double headed wolf does absolutely nothing meaningful to katsuyu it is merely a waste of chakra on Kiba's part. The same is true of Ten Ten's weapons. Shino's bug may be of some worth but once again it only makes logical sense that Katsuyu would still possess acid. Therefore Shino's bugs would likely fall to excess amounts of that liquid. Furthermore, because we've never seen Katsuyu reaching her limit to claim that'd she run out of chakra would be foolhardy as you can't really say how much she has until she runs out.Whereas, we also know that if necessary outside of a seal Tsunade can still give her chakra.
And to answer your question regarding the sannin fight. No it makes much less sense that Katsuyu would divide into 10 slugs to fight Manda, when Gamabunta, Jiraiya, and Tsunade were serving as her back up. In fact, the better strategy would be to let yourself be eaten at which point you melt Manda inside out.
Also you can't conclusively say that Katsuyu needed to rely on Tsunade's chakra. You can say that she did rely on it but to say the she had to when it's very clear she has a sizeable amount of chakra is foolish.
That leaves Katsuyu with a three pronged method of attack. Absorbing the enemy leaving them immobile, melting the enemy killing them, or crushing the enemy killing them or leaving them immobile. And these are abilities possessed by the minis. Your argumentation is very strange.
So are you implying that full sized Katsuyu is incapable of moving she just sits there and can do nothing more. That's absurd. We've not seen Baku move but we can deduce that Baku is capable of such things.

If katsuya tries to split into her miniatures she can be dealt with in several ways.

1) Sai can create many paintings of smaller creatures to hold the clones at bay

2) Shikamaru can use shadow possession to catch as many as possible with his shadow imitation technique.

3) Tenten could spam as many Kunai as possible to hold them at bay.

4) Shino could disperse his bugs to attack the clones.

5) Neji/Hinata could use vacuum palm to keep as many off of them as possible.

6) Chouji could use his large hands to collectively push back as many clones as possible.

These methods can be done alone or collaboratively to hold off Katsuya from interfering with the battle with tsunade.
The most likely method will be a combo of 1,4, and 6, which will enough to maximize the efficiency in holding the clones back while keeping most of the focus on tsunade herself.

BTW this is if she is able to summon katsuya in the first place.

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

If katsuya tries to split into her miniatures she can be dealt with in several ways.

1) Sai can create many paintings of smaller creatures to hold the clones at bay

2) Shikamaru can use shadow possession to catch as many as possible with his shadow imitation technique.

3) Tenten could spam as many Kunai as possible to hold them at bay.

4) Shino could disperse his bugs to attack the clones.

5) Neji/Hinata could use vacuum palm to keep as many off of them as possible.

6) Chouji could use his large hands to collectively push back as many clones as possible.

These methods can be done alone or collaboratively to hold off Katsuya from interfering with the battle with tsunade.
The most likely method will be a combo of 1,4, and 6, which will enough to maximize the efficiency in holding the clones back while keeping most of the focus on tsunade herself.

BTW this is if she is able to summon katsuya in the first place.

1. Just how many paintings can make before he runs out of chakra? And btw, what is Sai doing here? I thought this is a K11 vs Tsunade fight.
2. Shikamaru's limit is 5 minutes when he holds 1 opponents. Can he hold 15- 2O mini slugs? Lets say he can and after that he runs out of chakra.
3. The Kunais can't injure her
4. He could, but again, how many slug clones can he "kill" before he runs out of chakra?
5. True, but again, their chakra is finite too. And if they attack the slugs, who will attack Tsunade?,
6. True, however Tsunade could kill Choji easily. He is slow, and he is a giant, standing target.

Btw, why can't she summon? Do you honestly think these chuunins won't let time for her? Nah. She managed to summon Katsuya when he fought Orochimaru. She managed to summon Katsuya when she was cut in half...
And don't forget she can create clones too. Even the gennins can use clones, I bet the Hokage can use them too.

And before you ask why didn't she used clones yet:

- against Orochimaru: She was rusty, and she was run out of chakra. And she had supports ( Jman, Naruto and Shizune)
- against Pain she healed the Village
- against Madara she reserved her chakra in order to heal herself and the Kages.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

No fast handseal feats?

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So you seem to think Katsuyu is some pushover. That even Choji can handle but Choji would be completely fodderized by the mini of Katsuyu that I described earlier.
Among Katsyuyu's abilities is the ability to divide into many versions of herself. Her full bodied self is capable of spitting acid so it is logical to assume that her minis could as well. In other words she could surround enemies and perform combination attacks with herself. She could have infinitely many maneuvering options.

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] Or given how Tsunade was able to heal the village through Katsuya and she was going to kill Orochimaru with Medical Ninjutsu if a small katsuyu a few inches long is stuck on an opponent Tsunade needs only to channel the technique through Katsuya to kill an opponent. I can see Tsunade inacting this jutsu while multitasking as she always holds the jutsu that keeps her looking young, while using augmented monster strength, while using forbidden jutsus, or how she keeps up her technique while she heals.In addition to the obvious fact that Katsuyu can crush people. In addition to the obvious fact that Katsuyu can crush people. Given the crushing power of this mini katsuyu it only stands to reason the a full sized katsuyu would be much more deadly.

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We also know that Katsuyu can completely envelop people quickly even without their permission. So yes, Katsuyu is evidently quick as she is was able to get into the room and envelop people without them noticing.

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And Katsuyu moved from directly next to Manda, to behind Gamabunta before Jiraiya launched his katon.

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And Katsuyu apparently left the hokage mansion and quickly spread through the town in one panel.

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And Tsunade can seeming sense what Katsuyu sees

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Katsuyu cannot be harmed cutting or stabbing and as we've seen her withstand Shinra Tensei FP and Chibaku Tensei it is safe to assume she can withstand being crushed.

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And if this is Katsuyu divided by hundreds or even thousands

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then a Katsuyu only divided by 12 would be much larger than the each of the other shinobi. Handling one Katsuyu mini that still has the abilities of to split and all other functions of the whole would be too much for any of these shinobi. Adding another mini and Tsunade is too much for them.

Your lucky I care enough to reply. None of the Pictures work and neither do the websites. So I had to look at the url and match it up to another webiste.

First of all. No. That hand

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was **** on by Zabuza. Who completed 44 Seals in what Sasuke described as

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What Tsunade was using was

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which only requires two seals. Hardly something worthy of being called speed, when Zabuza can complete 44 seals in the same amount of time.

Katsuya doesn't fodderize Choji even while he's normal size. If you think Mini-Katsuya can take Choji while he's using Chō Baika no Jutsu, then your bat**** insane. Her Acid can be countered by Chōdan Bakugeki since it has Chakra wrapping his fist.

Tsunade didnt heal an entire village. She healed whoever Pain didn't kill, and do you know how many people that was? A friggin lot. She healed whoever didn't die, which Tsunade fans want to ignore so they can continue hyping her.

Envolope people that were Injured and watching the village be destroyed in front of the. Is covering a rock gonna be some amazing feat for Katsuya now?

You do relize that Katsuya was already moving and Gamabunta was even moved by Manda's attack. This wasn't all in rapid succesion, so again. Not a very good feat.

Both of those are blantantly false. Katsuya was summoned on a street and was moving down said street, not around the village. How is that Tsunade seeing what Katsuya can see? Tsunade was going on about how he destroyed the village.

She tanked Chou Shinra tensei after it had being slowed by the building any all the other obstructions. She also, didn't tank Chibaku Tensei, Naruto tanked it, she was mearly under his cloak.

Katsuya doesn't have the feats to be in thousands, quit overexagerating. Choji just squishes them anyway.

5) Neji/Hinata could use vacuum palm to keep as many off of them as possible.

Or just use Jyuuken to kill them xd its not like Slugs inards are very durable, and theres no way to strengthen them.

Oh, and I replied to your post, but I didn't post it T.T and it took forever to type it and I dont wanna do it again.... I'll PM you it when I am motivated to.

And before you ask why didn't she used clones yet:

And before you ask why didn't she used clones yet:

She can't use Kage Bunshin. Naruto had to learn it from a Forbidden Scroll for Christ Sake. In the academy they teach Illusionary Bunshin. Not Flesh and Bone. To say she can't despite it being unlikely and not even being hinted at....

Phuck it. Im gonna say that Naruto can use Rinnegan, and my reason is that he hasn't felt like it.

[fastrthnwind]

1. Just how many paintings can make before he runs out of chakra? And btw, what is Sai doing here? I thought this is a K11 vs Tsunade fight.
2. Shikamaru's limit is 5 minutes when he holds 1 opponents. Can he hold 15- 2O mini slugs? Lets say he can and after that he runs out of chakra.
3. The Kunais can't injure her
4. He could, but again, how many slug clones can he "kill" before he runs out of chakra?
5. True, but again, their chakra is finite too. And if they attack the slugs, who will attack Tsunade?,
6. True, however Tsunade could kill Choji easily. He is slow, and he is a giant, standing target.

Btw, why can't she summon? Do you honestly think these chuunins won't let time for her? Nah. She managed to summon Katsuya when he fought Orochimaru. She managed to summon Katsuya when she was cut in half...
And don't forget she can create clones too. Even the gennins can use clones, I bet the Hokage can use them too.

And before you ask why didn't she used clones yet:

- against Orochimaru: She was rusty, and she was run out of chakra. And she had supports ( Jman, Naruto and Shizune)
- against Pain she healed the Village
- against Madara she reserved her chakra in order to heal herself and the Kages.

1) You make it seem like he can't make hundreds of small creatures before running out of chakra, which is what he did when he was with team 7 hunting for Sasuke. The OP added Sai is in this battle to make up for Narutos absence to make it K11 instead of K10
2) The slugs are, in general, fairly slow. He could losen the binding of the shadow imitation so that they hardly move at all and conserve more chakra that way.
3) It's not to injure her, but just to hold them back for a little bit.
4) You seem to forget that shino uses bugs mostly to cage in his opponents and then consume their chakra. He would essentially be cutting them off for a short while and daring their chakra.
5)It could be either of them, most likely Hinata since she is not as skilled in close range and would be used primarily as support for the team where Neji is part of the main offense and is crucial to cutting of her healing abilities through jyuuken.
6) Who ever said that she would even have the chance to do so? There are gonna be at least 4-5 people on her at any given moment, 3 of them being much faster than her.

You think that 11 people are just gonna sit there and let her summon? Please don't bring rank into this. Naruto is a genin and can solo the whole battlefield himself.

If tsunade can make clones, then the K11 could probably do it too keeping the ratio of people against her equal.

 

[Crazy Wolf]

The old Hiruzen, with his poor chakra reserves, was able to make 2 clones. Tsunade, with her huge amount of chakra, would make 1O clones. Bye- bye K11. :y

 

[fastrthnwind]

The old Hiruzen, with his poor chakra reserves, was able to make 2 clones. Tsunade, with her huge amount of chakra, would make 1O clones. Bye- bye K11. :y

Hiruzen had decent chakra reserves in his old age. You don't think the K11 wouldn't make clones of themselves? All of a sudden it's 110 vs 11. gg tsunade.

 

[Crazy Wolf]

Hiruzen had decent chakra reserves in his old age. You don't think the K11 wouldn't make clones of themselves? All of a sudden it's 110 vs 11. gg tsunade.

Haha, you think the members of K11 has enough chakra to make 1O (?!) clones? B_tch please.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

That post is just so incredibly incoherent. So it doesn't make sense that a being capable of splitting and reforming as she pleases can split into large forms of minis, or even reform into those large minis? Explain to me why that would even remotely occur? That's like me saying I can take apart every piece from my body and put it all back together, but I can't take my hand off. It doesn't follow. There is no logical reason to say that she cannot form into larger versions of herself.

Just like there is no logical reason why Sasori should be able to even live and fully function with his eternal organs practically lying in a jar. It's manga > logic.
It's logical to say since Rock Lee could open up to 5 gates in part 1, he now should be able to open more. It's logical to say, since Hinata can use Vacuum Palm which stems from the Gentle Fist, she should also be able to use Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four palms and Revolving heaven. It's logical to say that Obito and Madara can use all of the rinnegans abilities despite them not shown to use it yet. The point im trying to make is, very often, if it hasn't been shown in the manga in doesn't apply and it will be used against you, as it has been used against me more times then none.

The difference between your Katsuyu example and the Shino argument above, is spitting acid is a known ability of Katsuyu, whereas using poisonous insects was never shown to be one of Shino's abilities. It's an ability of his clan the same way the Reaper Death Seal is from the Uzumaki clan but the doesn't mean Karin knows how to perform it.

Going by your logic, why wouldn't Shino be able use poisonous insects? If he can control and utilize a swarm of regular insects, why wouldn't he be able to do the same with poisonous ones? That's like saying I can tame a swarm of insects, but can't do the same with insects that have stingers. Using poisonous insects doesn't have to be in the same manner that Torune uses them.

Katsuya as far as we've been able to perceive thus far is similar to her full self when in a miniature form. By similar I'm using the math definition that relates to ratios. So that she is the same in every fashion except that she is smaller. It would only make sense then that with a divided chakra the amount of acid varies not necessarily the acid producing powers all together. As the spitting of acid is one of her innate abilities.

While she is in her mini form, is appears that she is able to move much faster then that of her full form. Katsuya was completely incapable of reacting to manda after she spat her acid at him. And if spitting acid is an innate ability like you said, then that only means she won't be able to use it continuously as she would if it was chakra based jutsu. She would only be able to use as much as her body produces, and having to wait for her body to produce more before using it again. Also, when she disperses, it greatly hinders not only the amount being produced, but the amount she is able to spit out as well.

Furthermore, dividing Katsuyu into hundreds of human sized minis that could divide exponentially more times is not to your favor in this debate. Because now instead of having to deal with one large version of katsuyu each member of the k11 would not have hundreds to deal with which would force them to expend all of their chakra in a failed attempt to stop her. And at that point BM Chouji would be completely useless against such small opponents whereas they can enter crevices and suffocate him by filling his eso****us and lungs. Likewise they can just absorb other members of the k11. In fact Neji would be completely helpless against hundreds of katsuyu's as he has nothing to serve as a permanent deterrant. He at best could stall but he'd be overrun with numbers. And if you used the BM Chouji can just blow them away argument then you must also realize the consequence of being able to blow away such heavy objects is that he would also blow away his teammates. And in a 1 vs 1 against Tsunade he gets fodderized.

The thought of these human sized mini katsuyas actually getting the chance to absorb any member of K11 is ridiculous. Other then allowing katsuya to absorb anybody by their own free will like in the pain arc, the only way I see this happening is in the event any of them exhausting their chakra and having no energy to move. Also, the chances of that happening to Choji are slim to none. You're forgetting he is capable of temporarily take flight and if anything, deactivate BM.

Also Double headed wolf does absolutely nothing meaningful to katsuyu it is merely a waste of chakra on Kiba's part. The same is true of Ten Ten's weapons. Shino's bug may be of some worth but once again it only makes logical sense that Katsuyu would still possess acid. Therefore Shino's bugs would likely fall to excess amounts of that liquid.

The goal is not to defeat Katsuyu, but occupy her while Tsunade is being taken care of. That is the purpose of double headed wolf and shinos bugs, in addition to BM Choji. I already established since Katsuyus acid is a natural ability, she can't just spit acid at will, she will indeed run out and have to wait until more it being produced.

Also you can't conclusively say that Katsuyu needed to rely on Tsunade's chakra. You can say that she did rely on it but to say the she had to when it's very clear she has a sizeable amount of chakra is foolish.

I was using the same logic that happened in Muu's case, how his power was split in half when he split himself into two, the same principles should apply to Katsuyu every time she splits herself as well.

That leaves Katsuyu with a three pronged method of attack. Absorbing the enemy leaving them immobile, melting the enemy killing them, or crushing the enemy killing them or leaving them immobile. And these are abilities possessed by the minis. Your argumentation is very strange.

The odds of bold happening are almost none. Katsuyu isn't absorbing anybody without them letting her, as well she has never even shown to be able to jump, forget hopping high enough to even land on someone and immobolizing them.

So are you implying that full sized Katsuyu is incapable of moving she just sits there and can do nothing more. That's absurd. We've not seen Baku move but we can deduce that Baku is capable of such things.

Nah, I should of been more clear. I meant she hasn't shown to be able to move very fast while in full form in comparison to when she dispersed into her minis.

---

It's also very plausible that Shikamaru can cast shadow possession on Katsuya before she disperses, which leaves a 10 V 1 for Tsunade. In this event, Ino can use Mind Transfer on Katsuya buying Shikamaru some time to help out bringing Tsunade down.

In the event that Katsuya disperses to the hundreds of minis, Ino can mind transfer any one of them and end up stopping them all since they are all one entity.

Ino can't mind transfer into animals you say?

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"But Ino won't be able to mind transfer such a big and powerful target"

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K11 is winning this match up.

 

[Tazzilla88]

If katsuya tries to split into her miniatures she can be dealt with in several ways.

1) Sai can create many paintings of smaller creatures to hold the clones at bay

2) Shikamaru can use shadow possession to catch as many as possible with his shadow imitation technique.

3) Tenten could spam as many Kunai as possible to hold them at bay.

4) Shino could disperse his bugs to attack the clones.

5) Neji/Hinata could use vacuum palm to keep as many off of them as possible.

6) Chouji could use his large hands to collectively push back as many clones as possible.

These methods can be done alone or collaboratively to hold off Katsuya from interfering with the battle with tsunade.
The most likely method will be a combo of 1,4, and 6, which will enough to maximize the efficiency in holding the clones back while keeping most of the focus on tsunade herself.

BTW this is if she is able to summon katsuya in the first place.

1. Whether or not sai has enough ink let alone enough chakra is in question, that added to the fact that his creations can't really take a blow.
2. The idea that Shikamaru could hold so many slugs for even a short period time is ridiculous but would also leave him completely open to other slugs and Tsunade herself.
3. That doesn't even stall Katsuyu as it has no effect whatsoever
4. He has a finite amount and if he dispatches them all to try and slow down Katsuyu how he is going to hold himself against Tsunade?
5. That would just be chakra exhaustion, it wouldn't lead to any meaningful progress whatsoever.
6. In doing so he would expose his hands to acid, and also give the ability for Katsuyu to crawl all over him and overwhelm him that way.

Your lucky I care enough to reply. None of the Pictures work and neither do the websites. So I had to look at the url and match it up to another webiste.

First of all. No. That hand

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was **** on by Zabuza. Who completed 44 Seals in what Sasuke described as

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What Tsunade was using was

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which only requires two seals. Hardly something worthy of being called speed, when Zabuza can complete 44 seals in the same amount of time.

Katsuya doesn't fodderize Choji even while he's normal size. If you think Mini-Katsuya can take Choji while he's using Chō Baika no Jutsu, then your bat**** insane. Her Acid can be countered by Chōdan Bakugeki since it has Chakra wrapping his fist.

Tsunade didnt heal an entire village. She healed whoever Pain didn't kill, and do you know how many people that was? A friggin lot. She healed whoever didn't die, which Tsunade fans want to ignore so they can continue hyping her.

Envolope people that were Injured and watching the village be destroyed in front of the. Is covering a rock gonna be some amazing feat for Katsuya now?

You do relize that Katsuya was already moving and Gamabunta was even moved by Manda's attack. This wasn't all in rapid succesion, so again. Not a very good feat.

Both of those are blantantly false. Katsuya was summoned on a street and was moving down said street, not around the village. How is that Tsunade seeing what Katsuya can see? Tsunade was going on about how he destroyed the village.

She tanked Chou Shinra tensei after it had being slowed by the building any all the other obstructions. She also, didn't tank Chibaku Tensei, Naruto tanked it, she was mearly under his cloak.

Katsuya doesn't have the feats to be in thousands, quit overexagerating. Choji just squishes them anyway.



Or just use Jyuuken to kill them xd its not like Slugs inards are very durable, and theres no way to strengthen them.

Oh, and I replied to your post, but I didn't post it T.T and it took forever to type it and I dont wanna do it again.... I'll PM you it when I am motivated to.



She can't use Kage Bunshin. Naruto had to learn it from a Forbidden Scroll for Christ Sake. In the academy they teach Illusionary Bunshin. Not Flesh and Bone. To say she can't despite it being unlikely and not even being hinted at....

Phuck it. Im gonna say that Naruto can use Rinnegan, and my reason is that he hasn't felt like it.

1. Handseal speed is only relevant to summoning jutsu and Byakugou which both have seemingly less than 5 seals. Thus Tsunade's handseals are fast enough to allow her to summon and activate Byakugou all other comparisons are moot.

2. Katsuyu fodderizes Chouji under all circumstances. He doesn't stand a snowballs chance in heck again her. Now her minis you can try to debate over but with no way to harm her, he still doesn't have a decent chance of defeating even her minis.

3. Yes Pein killed a lot of People, however Tsunade protected a lot of people. Tsunade for the most part did heal a village unless you can show that Pein took out the majority of citizens and shinobi within konoha walls.

4. She enveloped people who were not yet injured to stop them from sustaining life threatening injuries. In the same fashion that she enveloped Ino, Shizune, and Ibiki without their permission before in that arc. In fact that more than suggests she's capable of enveloping the k11. She also at some point enveloped Kiba's mom who is more skilled than he is.
5. This was all rapid succession, otherwise Manda would have just been staring at Katsuyu and Gamabunta moving while doing nothing and that makes no sense.

6. If Katsuyu didn't get around the village how is it she was able to protect shizune, ino, and Ibiki?

7. Tsunade was seeing what Katsuyu could there and here.

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8..... Katsuyu moreso and Tsunade still were extremely close to the epicenter of Chou Shinra Tensei. And If gravity is having an effect on my whole body it's going to have an effect on my innards. That is to say as long as Katsuyu is in the same place as naruto was she still felt the gravitational pressure.
9. So how many Katsuyu minis spread through the village. What is the smallest she can go? No answer? okay.
10. Katsuyu has endured tremendous gravitational forces, and can divide into much small versions of herselves. Which means that she can ensure that she not be squished.

1) You make it seem like he can't make hundreds of small creatures before running out of chakra, which is what he did when he was with team 7 hunting for Sasuke. The OP added Sai is in this battle to make up for Narutos absence to make it K11 instead of K10
2) The slugs are, in general, fairly slow. He could losen the binding of the shadow imitation so that they hardly move at all and conserve more chakra that way.
3) It's not to injure her, but just to hold them back for a little bit.
4) You seem to forget that shino uses bugs mostly to cage in his opponents and then consume their chakra. He would essentially be cutting them off for a short while and daring their chakra.
5)It could be either of them, most likely Hinata since she is not as skilled in close range and would be used primarily as support for the team where Neji is part of the main offense and is crucial to cutting of her healing abilities through jyuuken.
6) Who ever said that she would even have the chance to do so? There are gonna be at least 4-5 people on her at any given moment, 3 of them being much faster than her.

You think that 11 people are just gonna sit there and let her summon? Please don't bring rank into this. Naruto is a genin and can solo the whole battlefield himself.

If tsunade can make clones, then the K11 could probably do it too keeping the ratio of people against her equal.

1. Mice are much different than lions. That said he'd have to have a lot of ink on him to be able to complete such a feat. And with that much intent being put on drawing watching his surroundings will be difficult.
2. Slugs in general are, Katsuyu is not. Otherwise Ino would not have been completely shocked to find herself covered in slug. With Shikamaru spending a large amount of his chakra and attention on Katsuyu his ability to strategize against Tsunade will be impaired because he will be focused on the task at hand. Also even if he is holding them how does he account for the acid?
3. But how does kunai actually hold them back. And again with so much attention paid to Katsuyu she'd also be an open target.
4. I'll grant you that Shino would be the most useful in this situation. It would then come down to bugs to slug ration and acid to bug ratio.
5. Hinata would be quickly overrun by Katsuyu she has ocular prowess true, but her offensive prowess leaves something to demand. Both would be necessary as I cannot imagine Hinata or Neji using hundreds of air palms. They lose the number game by quite a bit.
6. I don't understand how you can imagine so many chunnin pressing Tsunade when they are each being pressed by Katsuyu. They don't have the strength of techniques to hold off as many minis as Katsuyu can create.

Just like there is no logical reason why Sasori should be able to even live and fully function with his eternal organs practically lying in a jar. It's manga > logic.
It's logical to say since Rock Lee could open up to 5 gates in part 1, he now should be able to open more. It's logical to say, since Hinata can use Vacuum Palm which stems from the Gentle Fist, she should also be able to use Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four palms and Revolving heaven. It's logical to say that Obito and Madara can use all of the rinnegans abilities despite them not shown to use it yet. The point im trying to make is, very often, if it hasn't been shown in the manga in doesn't apply and it will be used against you, as it has been used against me more times then none.



Going by your logic, why wouldn't Shino be able use poisonous insects? If he can control and utilize a swarm of regular insects, why wouldn't he be able to do the same with poisonous ones? That's like saying I can tame a swarm of insects, but can't do the same with insects that have stingers. Using poisonous insects doesn't have to be in the same manner that Torune uses them.



While she is in her mini form, is appears that she is able to move much faster then that of her full form. Katsuya was completely incapable of reacting to manda after she spat her acid at him. And if spitting acid is an innate ability like you said, then that only means she won't be able to use it continuously as she would if it was chakra based jutsu. She would only be able to use as much as her body produces, and having to wait for her body to produce more before using it again. Also, when she disperses, it greatly hinders not only the amount being produced, but the amount she is able to spit out as well.



The thought of these human sized mini katsuyas actually getting the chance to absorb any member of K11 is ridiculous. Other then allowing katsuya to absorb anybody by their own free will like in the pain arc, the only way I see this happening is in the event any of them exhausting their chakra and having no energy to move. Also, the chances of that happening to Choji are slim to none. You're forgetting he is capable of temporarily take flight and if anything, deactivate BM.



The goal is not to defeat Katsuyu, but occupy her while Tsunade is being taken care of. That is the purpose of double headed wolf and shinos bugs, in addition to BM Choji. I already established since Katsuyus acid is a natural ability, she can't just spit acid at will, she will indeed run out and have to wait until more it being produced.



I was using the same logic that happened in Muu's case, how his power was split in half when he split himself into two, the same principles should apply to Katsuyu every time she splits herself as well.



The odds of bold happening are almost none. Katsuyu isn't absorbing anybody without them letting her, as well she has never even shown to be able to jump, forget hopping high enough to even land on someone and immobolizing them.



Nah, I should of been more clear. I meant she hasn't shown to be able to move very fast while in full form in comparison to when she dispersed into her minis.

---

It's also very plausible that Shikamaru can cast shadow possession on Katsuya before she disperses, which leaves a 10 V 1 for Tsunade. In this event, Ino can use Mind Transfer on Katsuya buying Shikamaru some time to help out bringing Tsunade down.

In the event that Katsuya disperses to the hundreds of minis, Ino can mind transfer any one of them and end up stopping them all since they are all one entity.

Ino can't mind transfer into animals you say?

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"But Ino won't be able to mind transfer such a big and powerful target"

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K11 is winning this match up.

Mother of Pearl you still insist on Shino using poisonous bugs when he's never had poisonous bugs living in him before. If you're going to continue down this line of reasoning I will simply stop responding because this is just silly.
In fact no one willingly let Katsuyu absorb them. She just did it and she can do it again.
So I'm just going to skip the arguments above the line, perhaps someone else will bother to explain to you why you are so far off target but not I.
If Shikamaru can hold something as big and powerful as Katsuyu long enough for Ino to use Mind Body Switch, then Ino becomes a helpless body that literally be defeated with a single shockwave. And if Shikamaru is still holding her he can be taken out easily as well. This is just so much silliness

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Mother of Pearl you still insist on Shino using poisonous bugs when he's never had poisonous bugs living in him before. If you're going to continue down this line of reasoning I will simply stop responding because this is just silly.
In fact no one willingly let Katsuyu absorb them. She just did it and she can do it again.
So I'm just going to skip the arguments above the line, perhaps someone else will bother to explain to you why you are so far off target but not I.
If Shikamaru can hold something as big and powerful as Katsuyu long enough for Ino to use Mind Body Switch, then Ino becomes a helpless body that literally be defeated with a single shockwave. And if Shikamaru is still holding her he can be taken out easily as well. This is just so much silliness

Lmao in that case, forget about Shino using poisonous bugs. It's not even a deciding factor, so who cares.

As regards to no one willingly let katsuya absorb them, please spare me the Bs. Honestly. So you're implying everybody that she absorbed was done in a forceful manner? Ridiculous.
As far as your "counter" to Ino casting mind transfer on Katsuya, I applaud you. Shikamaru was momentarily able to hold a rampaging kyuubi cloak ginkaku, why wouldn't he be able to do the same with Katsuya? And if Katsuya chooses disperse, Shikamaru only needs to possess one katsuya mini for the mind switch to work. In any case, Ino isn't missing.

I find it very ironic that you called my post "silly" when your counter to Katsuya being caught in Mind Body Switch, is Ino becomes defenseless? Like this isn't completely obvious and she doesn't have 10 comrades on the battle field in appose to one enemy. Laughable.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

1. Handseal speed is only relevant to summoning jutsu and Byakugou which both have seemingly less than 5 seals. Thus Tsunade's handseals are fast enough to allow her to summon and activate Byakugou all other comparisons are moot.

2. Katsuyu fodderizes Chouji under all circumstances. He doesn't stand a snowballs chance in heck again her. Now her minis you can try to debate over but with no way to harm her, he still doesn't have a decent chance of defeating even her minis.

3. Yes Pein killed a lot of People, however Tsunade protected a lot of people. Tsunade for the most part did heal a village unless you can show that Pein took out the majority of citizens and shinobi within konoha walls.

4. She enveloped people who were not yet injured to stop them from sustaining life threatening injuries. In the same fashion that she enveloped Ino, Shizune, and Ibiki without their permission before in that arc. In fact that more than suggests she's capable of enveloping the k11. She also at some point enveloped Kiba's mom who is more skilled than he is.
5. This was all rapid succession, otherwise Manda would have just been staring at Katsuyu and Gamabunta moving while doing nothing and that makes no sense.

6. If Katsuyu didn't get around the village how is it she was able to protect shizune, ino, and Ibiki?

7. Tsunade was seeing what Katsuyu could there and here.

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8..... Katsuyu moreso and Tsunade still were extremely close to the epicenter of Chou Shinra Tensei. And If gravity is having an effect on my whole body it's going to have an effect on my innards. That is to say as long as Katsuyu is in the same place as naruto was she still felt the gravitational pressure.
9. So how many Katsuyu minis spread through the village. What is the smallest she can go? No answer? okay.
10. Katsuyu has endured tremendous gravitational forces, and can divide into much small versions of herselves. Which means that she can ensure that she not be squished.

They're not, which is what i just proved. Especially when she will have 4-5 People much faster than her engaging her in CQC plus everyone else attacking.

Katsuya can't fodderize choji while he's using Cho Baika No Jutsu, this point is moot.

You can't prove how many she protected, but we can see that Nagato revied a large amount of people when he used Gedo Rinne Tensei.

They wernt fighting her. They had no reason to resist, while inside or outside.

They had enough time to tell her to move. Combined with the other things this isn't a decent feat.

You said it was in one panel. Which is a load. You can't even say it was fast based on panels.

Obstructions slowed the momentum. Thats basic physics.

You can't prove how small she can go? no feats? ok.

She has one feat of durability and thats enduring the fox chakra. Thats it.

 

[Orosanagi]

She's an horribly weak Hokage.

K11 would stomp her ass.

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

There's no need for anyone to debate , it's crystal-clear that Tsuande loses.​

We proved she wins. So your point is ... ?

 

[DemonicAvenger]

We proved she wins. So your point is ... ?

Your not even close to proving she wins

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Your not even close to proving she wins

That's just your opinion. Taz and me countered all your points.
And I'm still waiting the answer: What can they do if she makes some clones? 5 EMS Sasunoo clones was enough to overwhelm 1 Kage. 5 Kage level Tsunade clones would be enough to overwhelm 11 chuunin- low jounin level opponents.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

That's just your opinion. Taz and me countered all your points.
And I'm still waiting the answer: What can they do if she makes some clones? 5 EMS Sasunoo clones was enough to overwhelm 1 Kage. 5 Kage level Tsunade clones would be enough to overwhelm 11 chuunin- low jounin level opponents.

She can't make Kage Bunshin. Thats the Point.

If you wanna give her Kage Bunshin then im Giving Choji Kage Bunshin, then he's gonna have a Cho Baika no Jutsu party.

--------

Plus all her counters were wrong. She tried to say she had fast seal speed when Zabuza can do 44 Seals in the same amount of time that Tsunade can do 2. Then she tried to twist it and say that's not what she was saying and that she can just do it fast enough, which is also blantantly false.

The only argument the Tsunade fan-girls have is Katsuya, and its not even a guarentee that she can use Kuchiyose in time. Even if Tsunade ends up summoning Katsuya then Choji's Chōdan Bakugeki can Kill Katsuya, but thats not even required. He just has to hold her off until the others kill Tsunade, which also, is not very hard for them.

 

[Crazy Wolf]

Haha, why is this even debatable??? The answer should be obvious. The HoKAGE takes this.

 

[TheEvilOne]

Haha, why is this even debatable??? The answer should be obvious. The HoKAGE takes this.

This.