Establishing why BM Minato > Hashirama

TrollingSage · Oct 25, 2013

Well this isn't going to end well.

Narutoga · Oct 25, 2013

with this, the fact that BSM naruto is almost even to hashirama cannot be doubted....naruto's speed is close to teleporting, his fire power greater than PS, whats more not to believe

Narutoga · Oct 25, 2013

End of Days said:
Bogard if you can do a size comparison between the juubi bomb and the shinsuusenju you may be able to prove that Minato can simply use hiraishin to send it away (big troll move but probably the easiest)

In Bijuu mode Minato likely gets more than 50 times his base chakra so that means things even 50 times the juubi bomb are within his reach

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And this increase is nothing since this was when the cage was active and the kyuubi could only give a tiny amount of chakra

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preach it to NB, my friend

Bogard · Oct 25, 2013

End of Days said:
Bogard if you can do a size comparison between the juubi bomb and the shinsuusenju you may be able to prove that Minato can simply use hiraishin to send it away (big troll move but probably the easiest)

In Bijuu mode Minato likely gets more than 50 times his base chakra so that means things even 50 times the juubi bomb are within his reach

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And this increase is nothing since this was when the cage was active and the kyuubi could only give a tiny amount of chakra

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I already tried to do the comparison in question but the panels of Juubi's Bijuudama don't make it easy to rate it(well i didn't try for long however it could be another reason lol), but honestly you don't really need to do calculations to know that he can teleport that thing away when in base he warped something similar in terms of size. I didn't include it in OP however because i thought the thread was already long enough, but i may add it later U_U

The question remains however if Hashirama still has the chakra reserve to re-create Shinsuusenju. If he can't, he is screwed

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Narutoga · Oct 25, 2013

End of Days said:
Bogard if you can do a size comparison between the juubi bomb and the shinsuusenju you may be able to prove that Minato can simply use hiraishin to send it away (big troll move but probably the easiest)

In Bijuu mode Minato likely gets more than 50 times his base chakra so that means things even 50 times the juubi bomb are within his reach

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And this increase is nothing since this was when the cage was active and the kyuubi could only give a tiny amount of chakra

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and considering the fact that shisusenju is a large target, it will be extremely easy for minato to mark it, and send it to abyss

Strict · Oct 25, 2013

I don't necessarily want to be dragged into this discussion, just want to point out that Minato did not place the Kunai around the Juubi while already be present at the battlefield. He most likely placed them already before he showed his presence on the battlefield, hence Hiruzen asked him whether the markings were already set. We didn't see Minato setting the Kunai on screen.

End of Days said:
Bogard if you can do a size comparison between the juubi bomb and the shinsuusenju you may be able to prove that Minato can simply use hiraishin to send it away (big troll move but probably the easiest)

To which location? To a Kunai he placed 10 kilometers away? Shinsuusenju with its thousand hands is almost a kilometer tall. To get rid off of this huge object entirely, he would need to teleport it away to far away location. That would require preparation.

Btw what does teleportation bring? Will Hashirama be beaten if he is teleported to another location with Shinsuusenju? Indubitably not. Minato could also teleport away Juubi or Edo Madara and call it victory, but it clearly isn't. Either he kills his opponent or it's not legit. Because Hashirama will be unharmed when teleported away.

Gerkak · Oct 25, 2013

It's difficult to say who wins but you have proven that minato has what it takes to fight hashirama .

End of Days · Oct 25, 2013

Strict said:
To which location? To a Kunai he placed 10 kilometers away? Shinsuusenju with its thousand hands is almost a kilometer tall. To get rid off of this huge object entirely, he would need to teleport it away to far away location. That would require preparation.

anywhere is fine as long as you separate shinsuusenju and hashirama, he had a location already marked to deal with kyuubi's tbb and another to take away kyuubi from the village

Btw what does teleportation bring? Will Hashirama be beaten if he is teleported to another location with Shinsuusenju? Indubitably not. Minato could also teleport away Juubi or Edo Madara and call it victory, but it clearly isn't. Either he kills his opponent or it's not legit. Because Hashirama will be unharmed when teleported away.

he only needs to separate the two from each other, and its possible

even though the whole alliance were connected through the chakra link between minato and naruto, only two fodders were selectively teleported to one marking

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minato intended to separate naruto and sasuke from obito who was holding them down

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and he did it in the end

without shinsuusenju with him hashirama would be in trouble

Bogard · Oct 25, 2013

Strict said:
I don't necessarily want to be dragged into this discussion, just want to point out that Minato did not place the Kunai around the Juubi while already be present at the battlefield. He most likely placed them already before he showed his presence on the battlefield, hence Hiruzen asked him whether the markings were already set. We didn't see Minato setting the Kunai on screen.

Well whether it was before, after or at the moment he was showed, he still did it in one-go since the alliance was about to get crushed at any moment, so it's not possible that he took his time circling the Juubi to place them when the alliance was about to get crushed especially when you know he even got the time to go near a far away rock to place one another just to save the alliance. He most likely threw them when he arrived and prepared what was necessary to save the alliance

Made in Heaven · Oct 25, 2013

Is this a joke?

Bogard · Oct 25, 2013

Touken said:
An IC Minato would never spread that many kunai across the battlefield.

He only did it against the Juubi because it's massive. He'd have no reason to do it against Hashirama, unless he had knowledge of his large scale attacks.

Other than that, good thread, but I still kinda believe Hashirama wins.

Spreading kunais is IC for him. Now saying he won't spread kunais over large distance is still doubtful since it entirely depends on his mindset and what he intends to do with them

Nice to know you read it anyway

minatoisagod · Oct 25, 2013

i think minato can teleport away that bijuu as well so yea. I do think minato can beat hashirama, but yes i do think hashirama is stronger.

Tobiramas · Oct 25, 2013

Sefirosu Masamune said:
Nope. Hashirama was made for bijuu destruction so im gonna have to disagree.

He is made for Bijuu who fight without thinking

xxSAGExx · Oct 25, 2013

T Bogard said:
Title says it all. In this thread i'd like to explain why i believe BM Minato is above him

This is how i think the battle would play out between the 2. Minato usually waste no time to mark the territory

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Concerning Hashirama it depends. However it's possible he may want to start with his flower tree world

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If Minato is in human form(KCM without avatar), he will notice the start of the jutsu [
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] and get out of the way with Hiraishin

He has shown the capacity to mark a territory even bigger than the Juubi in one-go

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Other possibility would be to simply throw it in the opposite direction of the jutsu formation [
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], so basically in Hashirama's direction since the flower tree world is a straight forward jutsu so i don't think it affects the area where Hashirama is supposed to be behind the formation of the technique

So it wouldn't be difficult for him to throw kunais far away from Hashirama's jutsu(if he didn't do it already) and get out of the area before the flower tree world actually take effects [
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And it has also be shown that the effect isn't really permanent since the Kages even after inhaling the pollen during a certain while, still managed to wake up after Onoki(who wasn't put to sleep by the technique) destroyed the flowers [
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So Minato has all the time necessary to evade this technique anytime he wants since his kunai spreading capacity is above that of the flower tree world

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Infact later when Obito used his own barrier(that has greater scale than the Hokage barrier)

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We realised that Minato even managed to put kunai markings outside the area

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So all in all, Minato has the tools to dodge this jutsu even in base form

If he uses Kyubi's avatar it would even be easier since this jutsu isn't even on the level of Madara's PS feet [
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So eventhough BM Minato isn't as big as Perfect Susanoo, the attack would be too small that it won't even be noticeable, the pollen only affecting people on human being scale

In BM, Minato would probably use moves like Bijuudama

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Or his giant rasengan to finish of Hashirama off the bat

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Hashirama would probably try to counter this either by catching the Bijuudama and throwing it back

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Defend himself with Rashoumon gates

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Or the human golem that contained this Bijuudama [
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The first counter would prove itself unsuccessful though if he were to fire continous bijuudamas in kurama form

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And it's doubtful the other one would be great enough to contain the power of 4Bijuudamas

Hashirama may decide to use the wood dragon to contain Kyubi's power

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But it would prove itself unsuccessful against a teleporter

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Same can be said concerning his gates [
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And because of being pushed back by Kyubi's fire power, things like clones or normal wood techniques would prove themselves to be worthless at this point. Hashirama would probably decide to enter SM and use his Shinsuusenju

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Something powerful enough to contain the power of multiple tailed beast bombs [
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Problem however is that this statue lacks long range attacks(at least from what we know). Its Chojou Kebutsu needs close contact to be effective [
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] [
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Well because of it's size, normally it shouldn't be a problem, but remember, he is fighting a teleporter here and like i've proved above, Minato can mark territories far greater than Shinsuusenju's range, so he could easily get out of the way and decide to attack the statue from a long range position anytime he wants

Worse being worse is that lately, Minato has even shown long range chakra arms that make even Bijuus look small

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Chakra arms alone aren't easy to dodge and when you dodge them, you're not far away from them [
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[
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Combining this move with FTG kunais or markings like i've shown on my picture for example, and he could be capable to surprise Hashirama above the Boudha at anytime he desires either with a surprise teleported Bijuudama on top of the statue(so on Hashirama's position) [
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], or instant teleporting himself there and finish him off with a kunai slash [
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], Rasengan [
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] or whatever

If he wants to play safe, he can even make a clone do the job

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In terms of fire power i would also like to point out that the combined Bijuudama created by half Kyubi and Hachibi was roughly 33times bigger than Juubi(who is bigger than Shinsuusenju)

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If you consider that Kyubi contributed in half the power, it would mean Kyubi's Bijuudama would have been roughly 16times bigger than Juubi if he made it alone, but half Kyubi having far greater fire power than Hachibi, the range should obviously be far greater as well

So all in all, Minato possess superior fire power, greater evasivity and speed as well as dangerous markings, allowing him to take this fight IMO

Your post lacked a few things like the fact that Minato would have to be a edo to use BM since he was only alive for a few minutes after sealing Yin Kurama inside him so it would have to be Edo Minato. Also the fact that Hashirama's brother was the creator of Edo tensei and the FTG so has knowledge of how to fight against both. Also If you look at Madara's fight with the Kages, Madara made a total of 25 clones who could all use Susanoo, Hashirama as more chakra than Madara but only made a few clones in recent chapters becausehe couldn't split his power too thin against the Juubi and Madara on the field (

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). Also Hashirama had all the tailed beast in his possession but 1 tails so he could just summon them as well. You never stated which Hashirama so you can't really say no to Hashirama using the Bijuus.

So Hashirama clones could just spread out And all use Flower world which would increase it's area by Minato's Kunias. If Minato throws a kunai in Hashirama's direction to escape then Hashirama can throw a shuriken or Kunia to knock it back since he has knowledge of how ftg works. With no place to teleport but off of the Battle field, Minato's best option is to ftg off the field to regain his breath from the pollen then ftg back in BM (if Edo) and shoot Tbb around the area to stop the pollen.

Hashirama can also use his genjutsu which even Hiruzen couldn't escape, it takes away your sight and hearing and Hiruzen who knew the jutsu used his smell.

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and

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So any clone that's near Minato can do this (if alive Minato then he doesn't have Yin Kurama's help which allows Hashirama to have time to kill him). If edo and with Yin Kurama then he'll break out but in that time Hashirama can summon the Bijuus or his Shinshuusenju to destroy then battle field which takes out most of Minato's Kunais. Then a Clone Suppresses Kurama's power

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.

Without Kurama's power Minato wouldn't last in the fight.

H a n · Oct 25, 2013

Hashirama babyshakes with Kurama in one hand and Minato in the other.

Ababeel · Oct 25, 2013

I think Minato will win if the fight happened. Zzz
but I'm waiting for his long-named jutsu. Too bad he lost his arm
so we will probably not going to see his element or some other ninjutsu of sealing jutsu from him. Zzz

TheSages456 · Oct 25, 2013

any argument that involves minato speedblitzing hashirama is complete and utter nonsense. tobirama isnt anywhere near hashiramas level and he wields the same technique that minato does.

how hashirama counters BM minatos firepower.
outside of bijudama, BM minato cant scratch a mokujin. the only possible outcome in cqc is this:

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he cannot physically take down a construct that can clash physically with madaras perfect susano:

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any single bijudama get caught:

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multiple bijudamas get caught with 5 mokuton hands:

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for a "super bijudama", hashirama redirects them with mountain sized rashoumon:

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the biggest bijudama we have seen from 50% kurama is nowhere near the rashoumon in size.

the bijudama is roughly 5 times the size of 50% kurama:

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50% kurama is half of 100% of kurama(obviously):

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100% kurama isnt even close to the size of a full scale mountain:

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a super bijudama is nowhere near the size of the rashoumon so it will get deflected easily.

how hashirama puts down minato:
minatos BM was put out of commission by a single root of the shinju:

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an individual root of the shinju has inferior feats to hashiramas mokuton.

it was easily sliced by sasukes complete susano(a root multiple times bigger than what took out minatos BM):

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the mokuryu is able to take a sword slash from madaras complete susano:

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the mokuryu subjugates minatos kurama avatar:

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the flower world finishes the match:

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the match goes to hashirama quite handily.

KidGamer65 · Oct 25, 2013

T Bogard said:
Title says it all. In this thread i'd like to explain why i believe BM Minato is above him

This is how i think the battle would play out between the 2. Minato usually waste no time to mark the territory

You must be registered for see images

Concerning Hashirama it depends. However it's possible he may want to start with his flower tree world

You must be registered for see images

If Minato is in human form(KCM without avatar), he will notice the start of the jutsu [
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] and get out of the way with Hiraishin

He has shown the capacity to mark a territory even bigger than the Juubi in one-go

You must be registered for see images

Other possibility would be to simply throw it in the opposite direction of the jutsu formation [
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], so basically in Hashirama's direction since the flower tree world is a straight forward jutsu so i don't think it affects the area where Hashirama is supposed to be behind the formation of the technique

So it wouldn't be difficult for him to throw kunais far away from Hashirama's jutsu(if he didn't do it already) and get out of the area before the flower tree world actually take effects [
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] [
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]

And it has also be shown that the effect isn't really permanent since the Kages even after inhaling the pollen during a certain while, still managed to wake up after Onoki(who wasn't put to sleep by the technique) destroyed the flowers [
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] [
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]

So Minato has all the time necessary to evade this technique anytime he wants since his kunai spreading capacity is above that of the flower tree world

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Infact later when Obito used his own barrier(that has greater scale than the Hokage barrier)

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We realised that Minato even managed to put kunai markings outside the area

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So all in all, Minato has the tools to dodge this jutsu even in base form

If he uses Kyubi's avatar it would even be easier since this jutsu isn't even on the level of Madara's PS feet [
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]

So eventhough BM Minato isn't as big as Perfect Susanoo, the attack would be too small that it won't even be noticeable, the pollen only affecting people on human being scale

I agree that Flower World has no place in this match.

In BM, Minato would probably use moves like Bijuudama

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Or his giant rasengan to finish of Hashirama off the bat

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Hashirama would probably try to counter this either by catching the Bijuudama and throwing it back

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Defend himself with Rashoumon gates

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Or the human golem that contained this Bijuudama [
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]

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The first counter would prove itself unsuccessful though if he were to fire continous bijuudamas in kurama form

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I agree that the first counter would be unsuccessful, but only if he tries it with Mokujin and not Shinsuusenju, which will be able to catch and redirect whatever Minato throws at him.

And it's doubtful the other one would be great enough to contain the power of 4Bijuudamas

Due to the size difference between 100% Kurama and 50% Kurama,

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Bijuu Dama is much larger than the Bijuu Dama fired for

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.

Here is the explosion of 100% Kurama's standard Bijuu Dama. [

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]

Here is an explosion of a standard Bijuu Dama, same size as the ones used for Continuous Bijuu Dama. [

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]

The one from Kurama was much bigger, only strengthing the fact that his was bigger due to the size difference between him and the rest of the Bijuu, which also made it stronger. Considering

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from the 100% Kurama Bijuu Dama explosion. It can most likely shield Hashirama from all 4 of those Bijuu Dama despite the Hobi sustaining a lot of damage. Hashirama would still be unscathed.

Its also possible he can use Hotei no Jutsu to catch them, given they rivaled Full Kurama in size, and caught Perfect Susanoo's blade. [

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]

Hashirama may decide to use the wood dragon to contain Kyubi's power

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But it would prove itself unsuccessful against a teleporter

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Same can be said concerning his gates [
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Agreed. Wood Dragon by itself plays no part here, though if used in tandem with other techniques it could be effective...but I'm not sure about that.

And because of being pushed back by Kyubi's fire power, things like clones or normal wood techniques would prove themselves to be worthless at this point. Hashirama would probably decide to enter SM and use his Shinsuusenju

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Something powerful enough to contain the power of multiple tailed beast bombs [
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]

Problem however is that this statue lacks long range attacks(at least from what we know). Its Chojou Kebutsu needs close contact to be effective [
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] [
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] [
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]

Well because of it's size, normally it shouldn't be a problem, but remember, he is fighting a teleporter here and like i've proved above, Minato can mark territories far greater than Shinsuusenju's range, so he could easily get out of the way and decide to attack the statue from a long range position anytime he wants

With what? Bijuu Dama would simply be caught and thrown back at him, not to mention it can move, but slowly. Since Minato can't even take it down, it'd eventually catch him unless he intends to run the whole entire match.

Not to mention Bijuu Dama's range is very very large, that would help in hitting Minato if he takes the "get out of range and attack" option.

Worse being worse is that lately, Minato has even shown long range chakra arms that make even Bijuus look small

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Chakra arms alone aren't easy to dodge and when you dodge them, you're not far away from them [
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] [
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[
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] [
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Combining this move with FTG kunais or markings like i've shown on my picture for example, and he could be capable to surprise Hashirama above the Boudha at anytime he desires either with a surprise teleported Bijuudama on top of the statue(so on Hashirama's position) [
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], or instant teleporting himself there and finish him off with a kunai slash [
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], Rasengan [
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] or whatever

If he wants to play safe, he can even make a clone do the job

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Those chakra arms have stretched pretty long, but only as twice as long as Hachibi's length when stretched out at most, that is nothing compared to Shinsuusenju who dwarfed Full Kurama. His Chakra arms aren't reaching, and even if they could, its not like the Buddha would just stand there and watch them get at Hashirama.

What I'm saying even applies more so if Minato follows the strategy you have set for him. Its quite obvious that if he isn't in Chojo Kebutsu's range then there is no way he's getting Hashirama on top of the statue with his chakra arms, even if he was as close as Madara was he still would reach. If he makes a clone to do the job, not only would it have to be in Chojo Kebutsu's range even if this was feasible, he would have no way of protecting himself from the Buddha's attacks once they are used.

In terms of fire power i would also like to point out that the combined Bijuudama created by half Kyubi and Hachibi was roughly 33times bigger than Juubi(who is bigger than Shinsuusenju)

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If you consider that Kyubi contributed in half the power, it would mean Kyubi's Bijuudama would have been roughly 16times bigger than Juubi if he made it alone, but half Kyubi having far greater fire power than Hachibi, the range should obviously be far greater as well

So all in all, Minato possess superior fire power, greater evasivity and speed as well as dangerous markings, allowing him to take this fight IMO

I can agree that he has more raw firepower than Hashirama.

Bogard · Oct 26, 2013

KidGamer65 said:
I agree that Flower World has no place in this match.

Ok

I agree that the first counter would be unsuccessful, but only if he tries it with Mokujin and not Shinsuusenju, which will be able to catch and redirect whatever Minato throws at him.

Ok

Due to the size difference between 100% Kurama and 50% Kurama,
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Bijuu Dama is much larger than the Bijuu Dama fired for
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.

I agree but my point was more considering the number of Bijuudamas rather than their power. With Hashirama's method of catching the Bijuudama with his wood golem, it would be unsuccessful against a fired number. Though he has other counters

Here is the explosion of 100% Kurama's standard Bijuu Dama. [
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Here is an explosion of a standard Bijuu Dama, same size as the ones used for Continuous Bijuu Dama. [
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]

The one from Kurama was much bigger, only strengthing the fact that his was bigger due to the size difference between him and the rest of the Bijuu, which also made it stronger.

Actually when you look at the explosion of each fired bijuudamas on this panel, it looks comparable to the first form of Juubi in terms of size(each of them) [

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]. I agree however that the standard Bijuudama of Kyubi is bigger

Considering
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from the 100% Kurama Bijuu Dama explosion. It can most likely shield Hashirama from all 4 of those Bijuu Dama despite the Hobi sustaining a lot of damage. Hashirama would still be unscathed.

Fair point

Its also possible he can use Hotei no Jutsu to catch them, given they rivaled Full Kurama in size, and caught Perfect Susanoo's blade. [
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Completely missed this. It's a nice point

Agreed. Wood Dragon by itself plays no part here, though if used in tandem with other techniques it could be effective...but I'm not sure about that.

Nice

With what? Bijuu Dama would simply be caught and thrown back at him, not to mention it can move, but slowly. Since Minato can't even take it down, it'd eventually catch him unless he intends to run the whole entire match.

I was thinking a charged Bijuudama in this condition, but thinking about it, it's more likely Hashirama won't give his time to do that. Like i also realised the gigantic arms of Shinsuusenju that would be in the way of my teleporting Bijuudamas strategy. The kunais would be pushed back by them normally, unless they are strucked on it like on this tree [

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]. If it happens, then a teleporting Bijuudama may very well be the end for Hashirama

Hashirama Bijuudama counters works when he is capable to trace the trajectory of Bijuudamas. Unlike Susanoo users, he isn't protected when he fights above his golems because of this, a Bijuudama surprisingly appearing and exploding around his position may kill him

Those chakra arms have stretched pretty long, but only as twice as long as Hachibi's length when stretched out at most, that is nothing compared to Shinsuusenju who dwarfed Full Kurama. His Chakra arms aren't reaching, and even if they could, its not like the Buddha would just stand there and watch them get at Hashirama.

You've a point here. After checking i realised the chakra arms range will not reach outside the Shinsuusenju range, well at least by feats

What I'm saying even applies more so if Minato follows the strategy you have set for him. Its quite obvious that if he isn't in Chojo Kebutsu's range then there is no way he's getting Hashirama on top of the statue with his chakra arms, even if he was as close as Madara was he still would reach. If he makes a clone to do the job, not only would it have to be in Chojo Kebutsu's range even if this was feasible, he would have no way of protecting himself from the Buddha's attacks once they are used.

I disagree with your clone counter-argument. Hashirama's vision is completely hidden when he is using Shinsuusenju because of the arms on the statue's back. [

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]

Because of this, a clone may be capable to appear behind his back without him even noticing since FTG speed is untraceable. [

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]

So since Minato can mark territories around Shinsuusenju, his clone could easily get behind Hashirama without him even noticing. Using the chakra arms from that position to either place a marking somewhere without Hashirama noticing, or connect to teleport it somewhere else. It's the weakness of this jutsu

I can agree that he has more raw firepower than Hashirama.

Ok then

Ahmed1993 · Oct 26, 2013

Hashirama wins mid diff at best U_U

Establishing why BM Minato > Hashirama

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Anbu Operative 🎭

Anbu Operative 🎭

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Anbu Operative 🎭

Anbu Operative 🎭

Kage in the Making 👑

Banned

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Member

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Anbu Operative 🎭