Ending the Senju/Uchiha debate

[KiriyuSenju]

First of all, thank's for the brilliant post, and for bringing up this discussion.

I want to repeat a part of my arguments that I have made in my thread about the Uchiha massacre mystery.

In this thread, a lot of people already criticized OP for relying too much on Tobi's words. I wish to add that not only Tobi could be lying, but he could be hiding important facts.

I know this is conjecture: but some people in this thread have already wondered why the Uchiha have started the plot against the village. I do not mean that they had no motivation; but they were much weaker than the rest. Isn't it strange that they would try to make a move out of such a weak position? And, even though they might have resented the distrust and the weakened influence that was a consequence, I do not think that their position was so desparate that they would have no choice but to fight.

So, a large part of the Uchiha mystery that is still unexplained is, in my view, the question: why did the Uchiha rebel?

In my opinion, they must have been convinced that they had a chance to win. And there is one person that could have convinced them: Tobi, posing as Madara.

We have seen lot's of evidence of Tobi working like that: behind the scences, making other people do what he wants. He did it when he controlled the Mizukage.

What he could have done is revealed himself to the Uchiha and offered his help in the rebellion.

If this was the case, together with the fact that Tobi was actually responsible for the Kyuubi attack (notice that here he lies to Sasuke, saying that this was a natural disaster), this makes Tobi directly responsible for the death of the Uchiha. I think that if Sasuke realizes this, he will quickly change his target ;]

But this is not all. I chose to quote this post because OP says: "What we do know that is true is itachi life".

Now that's a bit too much. We only know the version that Tobi said, plus the fact that Itachi did not deny the most important parts of it, and Danzo did not deny this as well. But an important part which is unclear is:

1) was Itachi really sufficiently motivated to kill his own family and clan? Or did he just agree to take the blame in exchange for protecting Sasuke?

Notice that Hiruzen did not support this action, and Danzo only wanted the Uchiha's eyes. Could Itachi really have gone along with this? If so, it would really make him Danzo's puppet. I do not think so.

2) could Itachi really do the job himself? Tobi says that he helped Itachi, but there is an important problem. When Itachi learns from Naruto that Tobi told Sasuke how Danzo ordered the massacre, he says: "Damn you, Madara... So you knew..." How is it possible for Madara/Tobi not to know about Itachi's orders, if he was helping him?

The dead bodies of the Uchiha do not have any signs of Amaterasu, and there is no destruction in this part of the village that could be attributed to Susanoo or Shinra Tensei. The Uchiha seem to have been killed by "conventional means".

3) What was the role of Shisui? How did Itachi get his MS?

I would say, before we can settle the score of the conflict between Senju and Uchiha (btw, I completely agree with OP that the Senju were no saints), we need to resolve the Uchiha mystery. Can anyone help me with that?

Another interesting bit that awaits an explanation is Zetsu.

We know that Zetsu was the result of an experiment that combined Senju and Uchiha DNA. If this is true, and if Zetsu was created before the fight between Madara and Hashirama, it seems like Zetsu was the result of an cooperation between Senju and Uchiha. Considering how this turned out, nobody could really think that the Senju were any better than the Uchiha.

Same goes for Edo Tensei. I fully agree that developing this technique by Tobirama is a black spot on the Senju.

First of all i would say i agree on the fact that Tobi could be hiding very important facts about the Uchiha masacre. As for now he is known for lieing and decieving. The arguements ive seen in this thread involving the reason for them to rebel against the village is as i quote "They were power hungry" quote "They think they are the most powerful clan". That they had faith in their own ability's might be true enough but those arguements are quite unrealistic if logic is applied. Maybe Tobi had a part in it to convince them. He could just aswell pose as Madara then as he did after. As Itachi stated Tobi was present at the night of the masacre. Aswell as all the sharingan's he had obtained and held in his lab could just aswell be the sharingan's of people from that night and he thus obtaining them. He was fully aware of Shisui's death and stated himself that he had been looking for his eyes as Sasuke fought Danzo. Him convincing the Uchiha clan indeed be one of his doings, and would explain alot. Ive stated before that Tobi only told mostly the bad parts of all what happend with Sasuke's family, clan and Itachi's life. He did not tell about Hiruzen opposing to it all along. Another thought whom wander my mind is that after Itachi slaughtered his clan, he told to Hiruzen himself that Sasuke were not to be hurt. As i remember him bowing down to Hiruzen in that manner. Maybe Itachi did just take the blame for it to protect Sasuke. Because why did not Hiruzen immobalize Itachi at that point when he were standing right infront of him? As Tobi along time had been working in the shaddows and manipulating his surrondings as for Kirigakure, and so on. He could just aswell be behind this aswell. Tobi is a twisted character whom continues to suprize everyone its hard to tell what will come next from him. The question about Zetsu is quite facinating indeed. And as its still not being explained from who did create Zetsu. Which is something i would like to know more about. But for the Edo Tensei technique i see not where this is a black spot for the Senju. As i quote from what i have posted in this thread before. " Its clearly stated that Tobirama whom devoloped "Edo Tensei" Only made a incomplete version of it. And its allso stated that he never did master it himself. There is no info about it getting far enough with it that human sacrifices was used. But i assume not reasoning it by Orochimaru using allso a incomplete version of it. As seen from how weak Hashirama and Tobirama was at that fight. Orochimaru had used alot of time to master it and devoloping it to this stage. "

 

[Blaze Release]

Spoiler

First of all, thank's for the brilliant post, and for bringing up this discussion.

I want to repeat a part of my arguments that I have made in my thread about the Uchiha massacre mystery.

In this thread, a lot of people already criticized OP for relying too much on Tobi's words. I wish to add that not only Tobi could be lying, but he could be hiding important facts.

I know this is conjecture: but some people in this thread have already wondered why the Uchiha have started the plot against the village. I do not mean that they had no motivation; but they were much weaker than the rest. Isn't it strange that they would try to make a move out of such a weak position? And, even though they might have resented the distrust and the weakened influence that was a consequence, I do not think that their position was so desparate that they would have no choice but to fight.

So, a large part of the Uchiha mystery that is still unexplained is, in my view, the question: why did the Uchiha rebel?

In my opinion, they must have been convinced that they had a chance to win. And there is one person that could have convinced them: Tobi, posing as Madara.

We have seen lot's of evidence of Tobi working like that: behind the scences, making other people do what he wants. He did it when he controlled the Mizukage.

What he could have done is revealed himself to the Uchiha and offered his help in the rebellion.

If this was the case, together with the fact that Tobi was actually responsible for the Kyuubi attack (notice that here he lies to Sasuke, saying that this was a natural disaster), this makes Tobi directly responsible for the death of the Uchiha. I think that if Sasuke realizes this, he will quickly change his target ;]

But this is not all. I chose to quote this post because OP says: "What we do know that is true is itachi life".

Now that's a bit too much. We only know the version that Tobi said, plus the fact that Itachi did not deny the most important parts of it, and Danzo did not deny this as well. But an important part which is unclear is:

1) was Itachi really sufficiently motivated to kill his own family and clan? Or did he just agree to take the blame in exchange for protecting Sasuke?

Notice that Hiruzen did not support this action, and Danzo only wanted the Uchiha's eyes. Could Itachi really have gone along with this? If so, it would really make him Danzo's puppet. I do not think so.

2) could Itachi really do the job himself? Tobi says that he helped Itachi, but there is an important problem. When Itachi learns from Naruto that Tobi told Sasuke how Danzo ordered the massacre, he says: "Damn you, Madara... So you knew..." How is it possible for Madara/Tobi not to know about Itachi's orders, if he was helping him?

The dead bodies of the Uchiha do not have any signs of Amaterasu, and there is no destruction in this part of the village that could be attributed to Susanoo or Shinra Tensei. The Uchiha seem to have been killed by "conventional means".

3) What was the role of Shisui? How did Itachi get his MS?

I would say, before we can settle the score of the conflict between Senju and Uchiha (btw, I completely agree with OP that the Senju were no saints), we need to resolve the Uchiha mystery. Can anyone help me with that?

Another interesting bit that awaits an explanation is Zetsu.

We know that Zetsu was the result of an experiment that combined Senju and Uchiha DNA. If this is true, and if Zetsu was created before the fight between Madara and Hashirama, it seems like Zetsu was the result of an cooperation between Senju and Uchiha. Considering how this turned out, nobody could really think that the Senju were any better than the Uchiha.

Same goes for Edo Tensei. I fully agree that developing this technique by Tobirama is a black spot on the Senju.

Oho, i like this guy. I like this guy alot.
You do bring up interesting points.

 

[TrollingSage]

First of all, thank's for the brilliant post, and for bringing up this discussion.

I want to repeat a part of my arguments that I have made in my thread about the Uchiha massacre mystery.

In this thread, a lot of people already criticized OP for relying too much on Tobi's words. I wish to add that not only Tobi could be lying, but he could be hiding important facts.

I know this is conjecture: but some people in this thread have already wondered why the Uchiha have started the plot against the village. I do not mean that they had no motivation; but they were much weaker than the rest. Isn't it strange that they would try to make a move out of such a weak position? And, even though they might have resented the distrust and the weakened influence that was a consequence, I do not think that their position was so desparate that they would have no choice but to fight.

So, a large part of the Uchiha mystery that is still unexplained is, in my view, the question: why did the Uchiha rebel?

In my opinion, they must have been convinced that they had a chance to win. And there is one person that could have convinced them: Tobi, posing as Madara.

We have seen lot's of evidence of Tobi working like that: behind the scences, making other people do what he wants. He did it when he controlled the Mizukage.

What he could have done is revealed himself to the Uchiha and offered his help in the rebellion.

If this was the case, together with the fact that Tobi was actually responsible for the Kyuubi attack (notice that here he lies to Sasuke, saying that this was a natural disaster), this makes Tobi directly responsible for the death of the Uchiha. I think that if Sasuke realizes this, he will quickly change his target ;]

But this is not all. I chose to quote this post because OP says: "What we do know that is true is itachi life".

Now that's a bit too much. We only know the version that Tobi said, plus the fact that Itachi did not deny the most important parts of it, and Danzo did not deny this as well. But an important part which is unclear is:

1) was Itachi really sufficiently motivated to kill his own family and clan? Or did he just agree to take the blame in exchange for protecting Sasuke?

Notice that Hiruzen did not support this action, and Danzo only wanted the Uchiha's eyes. Could Itachi really have gone along with this? If so, it would really make him Danzo's puppet. I do not think so.

2) could Itachi really do the job himself? Tobi says that he helped Itachi, but there is an important problem. When Itachi learns from Naruto that Tobi told Sasuke how Danzo ordered the massacre, he says: "Damn you, Madara... So you knew..." How is it possible for Madara/Tobi not to know about Itachi's orders, if he was helping him?

The dead bodies of the Uchiha do not have any signs of Amaterasu, and there is no destruction in this part of the village that could be attributed to Susanoo or Shinra Tensei. The Uchiha seem to have been killed by "conventional means".

3) What was the role of Shisui? How did Itachi get his MS?

I would say, before we can settle the score of the conflict between Senju and Uchiha (btw, I completely agree with OP that the Senju were no saints), we need to resolve the Uchiha mystery. Can anyone help me with that?

Another interesting bit that awaits an explanation is Zetsu.

We know that Zetsu was the result of an experiment that combined Senju and Uchiha DNA. If this is true, and if Zetsu was created before the fight between Madara and Hashirama, it seems like Zetsu was the result of an cooperation between Senju and Uchiha. Considering how this turned out, nobody could really think that the Senju were any better than the Uchiha.

Same goes for Edo Tensei. I fully agree that developing this technique by Tobirama is a black spot on the Senju.

Or it could simply mean someone decided to experiment with Hashi's DNA after his death. You know like Oro, Madara and Kabuto have done. Just because Zetsu was made with Hashi's dna doesnt mean he had a hand it in. Infact doesnt Tobi have a "Zetsu factory" which he creates zetsus from?

 

[TOADvsSNAKE]

your point that edo tensei being a kinjutsu is invalid as kage bushin is also a kinjutsu Also i don't think that it's really evil TBH(by which i mean edo tensei)

 

[Blaze Release]

your point that edo tensei being a kinjutsu is invalid as kage bushin is also a kinjutsu Also i don't think that it's really evil TBH(by which i mean edo tensei)

Damn i knew somebody would figure that out.
I though about covering my ass and not say its a kinjutsu. Fact that you were the first, ill + rep you for that. BUT, the reason kage bunshin and edo tensei being listed as kinjutsu are very different

 

[KiriyuSenju]

Im quite sure Tobirama's intensions on creating Edo Tensei is quite different then "evil". Which is probably why he did not complete it.

 

[ganotsri]

So far all you did was... well, state the obvious and make baseless claims and speculate.

Sir, I'm not convinced.


Neither the Senju clan nor the Uchiha clan is evil. Individuals, yes, but entire clans? No.

AGREE +rep

 

[ganotsri]

Damn i knew somebody would figure that out.
I though about covering my ass and not say its a kinjutsu. Fact that you were the first, ill + rep you for that. BUT, the reason kage bunshin and edo tensei being listed as kinjutsu are very different

+ rep. I have some doubts are you speculating on the facts or not. And yes you are. It is cool. Good to know you are not just blind fanboy

 

[ReLax -]

Stating his point? Off course both sides would have wanted peace. But OP was making a weak attempt to make Uchihas look like peace loving simple minded people who just happen to be victims of the shinobi world. He even went on to add "always wanted peace" statement. While the statements, attitude of Uchiha prove that not to be a case all over manga.

Off course some of them wanted peace but clearly Madara, Izuna the leaders felt betrayed by it. The fact remains that Uchihas agreed for peace only after Madara was losing his eye sight and took Izuna's. It clearly showed the dangers of MS and limits of sharingan wars as well.

As I said before the OP did get bias only due to all those other threads regrading Uchiha/Senju, where it seemed they kept putting the Madara/Sasuke = Uchihas population.

The bold part: In other words your saying the Uchiha's were scared and wanted peace thinking their leader was going to die and they would stand no chance?

1. As I said before Hashirama and the Senju approached the Uchiha as stated in the manga for peace, so the fact remains that Senju wanted to ended this and approached the Uchiha who agreed. .

2. Madara returned this time even more powerful, so he wouldn't get blind, why didn't the Uchiha jump back on Madara side or agree with him and battle Senju again?

That too wasn't upto Uchhas alone and wouldn't that would have dismissed any Uchiha's chance to becme a Hokage.. come on Relax I expected better that from you.

The big brother who started the Uchiha Senju rivalry just because his father thought Senju ancester to be better would put this condition?

Frankly that would be very stupid condition that strongest shinobi and the one who has the most people supporting him should not be in the power. That doesn't go well even in democracies and you are asking for that in a shinobi world. Konoha would have been handicapt.

Indeed, I actually didn't think I have to elaborate, so much to actually get my point out.

That was my whole point neither Uchiha/Senju should be the Hokage, have a neutral leader, with the guidance, or help from both Uchiha/Senju, or put some responsible ones from both sides in the council.

Uchiha/Senju were not only founders of the villages, but also the ones who created it equally. They would have more say, if they wanted over the village.

It's like me and you both putting in $1 million for a building and working are asses off renovating it to start up a company. If I were the one who started taking the big roles and not letting you get involved, how would you feel? We both put in the same effort, but I have more power than you do?

Same goes with the Uchiha/Senju both equally found the village, but yet the Senju leader became Hokage. All I'm saying here is Madara had a point, but obviously the wrong story.

All I',m saying is if Uchiha/Senju talked, they could have easily agreed and had lined up candidates and let the village vote, I mean the guy should be intelligent with battle experience, but than again you have the two greatest clans. I'm sure there would have been someone good, or half decent for the Kage role not from Uchiha/Senju (Hiruzen/Minato)

Clearly they were Uchihas who weren't impressed with Madara's people skills.

OK. He challanged Hshirama who he was HOkage.What do you think would have happenned if Madara had won that day?

We all know that Madara was in that battle not to win, but to gain and fool Hashirama.

If I were to assume, it's either Madara will be most wanted by the village, if he killed/injured Hashirama who was the current Hokage. If you remember he left the village thus making him a rogue shinobi, than attacking the village will only making him worse. If he'd won he may attack the village with the Kyuubi, don't know if Uchiha will join or fight against him, etc. As I said assumtions only.

I have been here for two years now. I have seen similar threads before and it keeps popping up now and then. The fact remains that action of Uchiha clan was going to rebel and start yet another war, within 10 years of thirld shinobi world war. They could have talked and demanded their rights if they felt slighted. But they refused to talk.

I'm yet to find out where the hell they were at the time of Kyuubi attack.

The OP post was a bit over the top as he implied he ws the only one with clear understanding and every other member who doesn't agree with him a fool. At the same time he has nothing substential to back up his deductions. Random statement that at one particular time Uchihas wanted peace is neither here nor there.

Look at it like this (if you disagree with anything, will than let me know), the Uchiha's had no problem with Hashirama leading the village, after his death they had no problem with Tobirama being Hokage. In this time one of the Uchiha wanted to rebel as he started discovering that no Uchiha was involved in any of the government/Konoha affairs (except Kagami when he was with Hiruzen, Danzou, Tobirama and etc), but as Tobi stated it was too late as the Senju had taken control over everything. The Uchiha still didn't act or do anything. It seems to me they were indeed kept out of the way only time will tell if the Uchiha refused offers to assist the Hokage, or if they were kept in the blind, but as what we've seen its safe to assume they were kept away from that business. Are you with me so far?

So, it's safe to say Uchiha were fine with the way things were, until the Kyuubi incident. I didn't notice this, but a while back when I re read some chapter I noticed little Itachi and Baby Sasuke were present in the village when the Kyuubi was approaching. If the Uchiha were really behind this why would Fugaku (Uchiha leader at the time?) and his wife keep their kids behind? Maybe other Uchiha kids were also presented there, along with other Uchiha's who weren't the battle type? We may come to a understanding Uchiha were fooled by someone to leave the village on a task/mission?

I also want to know where were Senju? Don't tell me they were extinct, why are Uchiha's still around and Senju gone? Wouldn't make sense, and the Uchiha population didn't seem too big either.

There are many mystery about both clans and to be honest right now the biggest mystery is Senju rather than Uchiha. Uchiha we have heard as a whole and some individual people, but Senju only people to be mention is Hashirama and Tobirama.

 

[TOADvsSNAKE]

yes that's true i suppose. The kage bushin is a kinjutsu due to it's large chakra consumption that will kill you if you don't have enough to preform the technique. Where as the edo tensei is a kinjutsu for being classified as evil, imoral and most likely requiring human sacrifice, as we have seen 2 more kinjutsu like this(shiki funnin and the suicide technique anko tried to use on orochimaru). However this is where I disagree with Naruto as i don't think that edo tensei is evil or imoral. Now before you make assumptions heres why. Whilst it is true that a kinjutsu like edo tensei would require experimentation, but that in no way makes it evil some people forget that the technique was created during a time of almost constant war so P.O.W would have been put to good use after they had no more information. Now people would classify it as evil for the human sacrifice. However this doesn't matter to me as it's basically sacrifice 1 to save 100. We have seen situations like this before i.e. Naruto being made

 

[TOADvsSNAKE]

a jinjureki(sp?) where such sacrifices have been called noble. Now before you say that it's not the same essentially it is as jinjureki(sp?) literally means Human Sacrafice and Minato sacrificed himself and basically Naruto to save konohagakure.This is why i think edo tensei isn't evil. Sorry for the double post my PS3 wouldn't let me type it all at once. Also Blaze release +Rep for having such a compelling argument in the OP.

 

[drslim]

Or it could simply mean someone decided to experiment with Hashi's DNA after his death. You know like Oro, Madara and Kabuto have done. Just because Zetsu was made with Hashi's dna doesnt mean he had a hand it in. Infact doesnt Tobi have a "Zetsu factory" which he creates zetsus from?

Well that might be true. We know that Madara fought Hashirama only to get his DNA. So, if he would have it from the start because he had created Zetsu, why wouldn't he just use this?

Unless the white Zetsu DNA is actually sufficiently different from Senju's. Only that Sakura's and Tsunade's analysis actually states plainly that it is identical to Hashirama's.

And if this is true, than notice one important thing: this actually seems to disprove the Tobi=Zetsu theory!

Let's take it one step at a time:

1) if Zetsu did not exist at the time of Hashirama's death, then who created him? Madara got hold of Hashirama's DNA, but was mortally wounded.
2a) Madara still manages to create Zetsu and dies
2b) someone else, not Madara, takes Hashirama's and Madara's DNA, and this person is actually Tobi. We have seen lots of evidence that Tobi's body is partially made of Zetsu, but he could have added it later, especially if he was getting old
2c) This is the most interesting idea! Madara tries to combine Hashirama's DNA with his own, but does not have time, and dies. However, Zetsu is born out of Madara's dying body and Hashirama's DNA!

 

[siyo]

I did not read the whole thread but kinjutsu does not mean evil, only forbidden. Techniques like kage bunshin and rasenshuriken have both been labeled forbidden in the past even though they got nothing to do with the evil nature of the techniques.We don't know the extent of Tobirama's technique, besides him not erasing their minds, which means you're merely specualting.Right now, it actually looks like he liked the uchiha clan since he gave them a prominent position in society while picking an uchiha kid as his student.

 

[Avani]

As I said before the OP did get bias only due to all those other threads regrading Uchiha/Senju, where it seemed they kept putting the Madara/Sasuke = Uchihas population.

The bold part: In other words your saying the Uchiha's were scared and wanted peace thinking their leader was going to die and they would stand no chance?

1. As I said before Hashirama and the Senju approached the Uchiha as stated in the manga for peace, so the fact remains that Senju wanted to ended this and approached the Uchiha who agreed. .

2. Madara returned this time even more powerful, so he wouldn't get blind, why didn't the Uchiha jump back on Madara side or agree with him and battle Senju again?

Hashirama's personality shows him as the peace maker- Even Onoki believed him, who is shown to be naturally distrusting everyone he came to the Kage meeting. He gave away the beasts to other villages voluntarily to keep the power balance and in return to maintain peace yada yada.

Madara's ambitions didn't seem to be the same. And I won't be surprised if Uchiha's were not too excited with the method sharingan gets upgraded either. It's like every Uchiha parent being apprehensive of their kid's best friend and fear for the other kids of his own if one of the kids attain MS.

It's logical that they like a proposal where they could get respect and still be safe enough that they don't have to be that much on alert for their family 24/7. I'm not saying that they would have not been ready for the fight if they must but, they could see that Senju were able to gather Hyuga, Nara, Aburame etc other clans and found it suit them as well.

I never implied that Uchiha were afraid of Senjus and that was the only reason to agree for peace pact. Such treaties are always done with a lot of factors in mind. My main object was how the OP used several paragraphs just to imply and emphasize as if the Uchihas were the original peace makers and were taken advantage of, while it didn't take the other factors which would certainly their decision into account.

Indeed, I actually didn't think I have to elaborate, so much to actually get my point out.

That was my whole point neither Uchiha/Senju should be the Hokage, have a neutral leader, with the guidance, or help from both Uchiha/Senju, or put some responsible ones from both sides in the council.

Uchiha/Senju were not only founders of the villages, but also the ones who created it equally. They would have more say, if they wanted over the village.

It's like me and you both putting in $1 million for a building and working are asses off renovating it to start up a company. If I were the one who started taking the big roles and not letting you get involved, how would you feel? We both put in the same effort, but I have more power than you do?

Same goes with the Uchiha/Senju both equally found the village, but yet the Senju leader became Hokage. All I'm saying here is Madara had a point, but obviously the wrong story.

Wrong analogy. It was more like establishing a comapny and set up a bnoard and madara geting angry because Senju was selected the chairman of it.

The post of Hokage is not hereditary either so next time around whoever won the job would have gotten it. Danzou did challenge Hiruzen for the post ( though he lost thus proved Tobirama's choice correct). Fourth was not son of Sarutobi and Tsunade was considered only after Oro turned evil, Minato died and Jiraya refused.

All I',m saying is if Uchiha/Senju talked, they could have easily agreed and had lined up candidates and let the village vote, I mean the guy should be intelligent with battle experience, but than again you have the two greatest clans. I'm sure there would have been someone good, or half decent for the Kage role not from Uchiha/Senju (Hiruzen/Minato)

That was probably what happened.

And you see that Kage is just not a president of a democracy who gives orders from his office in a shinobi world. He is supposed to put his life in the line for safety of village. I would vote for someone who is least likely to lose.

We all know that Madara was in that battle not to win, but to gain and fool Hashirama.

No we don't. It was what Tobi claimed and at the same time he also claimed he was Madara.

It's beyond logic that Madara would voluntary chose to lose to Hashirama if he could win at that given time. He lost. He still was smart enough to steal his cells for future.

If I were to assume, it's either Madara will be most wanted by the village, if he killed/injured Hashirama who was the current Hokage. If you remember he left the village thus making him a rogue shinobi, than attacking the village will only making him worse. If he'd won he may attack the village with the Kyuubi, don't know if Uchiha will join or fight against him, etc. As I said assumtions only.

I don't think he would be a wanted shinobi for challenging Hashirama. Danzou remained in the village and was able to be considered by Elders afer he challenged and lost to Hiruzen. Leaving Konoha and betraying it on the other hand would make him wanted.

And that makes it more likely that Madara didn't lose purposely even if he had a plan B. Why would he chose to be in shadows when the seat of Hokage would make his plans even more smooth?

I wonder if he was left alive by Hashirama and that caused for additional hate at that point since Tobi as Madara claimed he admired him. He definitely seems to have met Onoki after founding KOnoha as Onoki and his flashback showed them talking about pact with Konoha. He told Onoki he didn't want to hear "that shinobi's" name. But I digress ..

Back to the main topic:

Look at it like this (if you disagree with anything, will than let me know), the Uchiha's had no problem with Hashirama leading the village, after his death they had no problem with Tobirama being Hokage. In this time one of the Uchiha wanted to rebel as he started discovering that no Uchiha was involved in any of the government/Konoha affairs (except Kagami when he was with Hiruzen, Danzou, Tobirama and etc), but as Tobi stated it was too late as the Senju had taken control over everything. The Uchiha still didn't act or do anything. It seems to me they were indeed kept out of the way only time will tell if the Uchiha refused offers to assist the Hokage, or if they were kept in the blind, but as what we've seen its safe to assume they were kept away from that business. Are you with me so far?

That's Tobi talking. Uchihas got the police force totally to themselves. At the same time Kagami was among personal students of Tobirama and a team mate of Hiruzen. Shisui and Itachi made it to ANBU. We do not have any evidence that there was some extraordinary shinobi among them except these and got slighted.

So, it's safe to say Uchiha were fine with the way things were, until the Kyuubi incident. I didn't notice this, but a while back when I re read some chapter I noticed little Itachi and Baby Sasuke were present in the village when the Kyuubi was approaching. If the Uchiha were really behind this why would Fugaku (Uchiha leader at the time?) and his wife keep their kids behind? Maybe other Uchiha kids were also presented there, along with other Uchiha's who weren't the battle type? We may come to a understanding Uchiha were fooled by someone to leave the village on a task/mission?

If they were fine with the things then all Tobi said was crap. I know Itachi was babysitting Sasuke. He was the one who wondered where his parents were. But , they were no where to be found.

I also want to know where were Senju? Don't tell me they were extinct, why are Uchiha's still around and Senju gone? Wouldn't make sense, and the Uchiha population didn't seem too big either.

What exactly is the point of this question when since start we hear only here about Senju's who are dead with an exception of Tsunade.

All of them already dead with Tsunade being the sole survivor till we are told otherwise by the manga. Tsunade had left the village ages ago after the war and Dan’s death along with his niece.

No Pannel in the manga during the KYuubi fight of 16 years depicts anyone with Sharingan, That's why the question about there whereabouts is rasied. None of the sharigan tried to fight off the sharingan Tobi used on Kyuubi while general conseus is that he didn't even show MS.

ASking about Senjus here is just a poor diversion tactics.

There are many mystery about both clans and to be honest right now the biggest mystery is Senju rather than Uchiha. Uchiha we have heard as a whole and some individual people, but Senju only people to be mention is Hashirama and Tobirama.

There are many mysteries around but people are trying to look for a conspiracy where there is none. The story is intriguing enough as it is. What’s the point of trying to give it extra cliché twist.