[Discussion] EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power[Please read first]

[KCMNaruto]

Hello,
I saw many threades stating "Hashirama> Madara by huge marginess" or "Madara is fodder to Hashi" created after the latest chapter came out.

before I will go to back up statement of my thread, I want to say that I am not Uchiha fan or troll. I accept statment that Hashirama in prime age(excluding sage mode) >=Madara in prime age and Senjuu>Uchiha.

After short introduction I would like to go straight into my reasons, why "EMS Madara isn't far behind Hashirama in power".

First fact is in latest chapter Madara has just accquired Eternal Mangenkyou sharingan, so couldn't use EMS's full power and surely he wasn't skilled with it just yet.

prove:

Spoiler

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Above picture show us Madara who has just accquired EMS and fought Hashirama. Madara only use full skeleton form of Sussano, so he didn't has expierience with it, surely MS Madara could use Complete Sussano.

Spoiler

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and this picture above show Madara with mastered EMS against Hashirama.

It simply show us that you have to train EMS to master it's powers, it will be same with Sasuke.


The fact alone that Madara was able to fight for twenty fours hours still against Hashirama should be prove to it. Obviously you can say that Madara fought with killing itent where Hashirama was not, but it is assumption.

Morever fight itself wasn't shown to us, readers. We can't know who has upper hand, how long and by how much or maybe once Madara had upper hand then Hashirama had and it could repeat, obviously it is assumption. If you look again into manga chapter 624, then as Madara is lying on ground near Hashirama, there is Tobirama and more Senjuu clan members. Tobirama has dirt on his clothes and he even shouted that it was chance for them to kill Madara, if he was sure that Hashirama, his older brother could deal with Madara easily then he wouldn't say that.

In my opinion it could go like that:
EMS Madara(chapter 624)=80% base Hashirama(excluding Sage mode if he had already)
EMS Madara + Kyuubi(vote)=150% base Hashirama(excluding Sage mode),
Sage mode Hashirama=200% Hashirama

so maybe: EMS Madara(vote)=base Hashirama

I think base Hashirama was slightly stronger than EMS Madara or even equal but he has too much amount of chakra so simply could outlast Madara whenever he fought him.

prove for EMS Madara + Kyuubi>base Hashirama:

Spoiler

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, Hashi was going into sage mode so couldn't he defeat Madara + Kurama without it


Conclusion: I think EMS Madara was slightly weaker than Hashirama in Chapter 624, probably Hashirama was slightly stronger then Madara or simply has much more bigger amount of chakra, so he outlast Madara simply.

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I would like to talk about Izuna and Tobirama too, I know that Tobirama is supperior to Izuna but question is how much...

Remeber that Senjuu are famous from having the biggest amount of chakra, so maybe Izuna use his MS offscreen and Tobirama countered all his powers, but couldn't win too, until Izuna used almost all his chakra, so Tobirama could kill him, so he would simply outlast him, we don't know how long battle lasted, it maybe be assumption but it would make sense.

IMO: Izuna=80% Tobirama, or maybe higher

Again Tobirama use Space Time Ninjutsu, maybe he has just invented it so Izuna has no intel on it and understimated Tobirama but still it is no exccuse for experienced Uchiha warrior for loose. I think Tobirama could even kill MS Madara by suprise. EMS Madara could be out of his league although he would kill him if he distracted Madara and then used Space Time Ninjutsu, but Madara would be to smart to fal for it.


IMO: Sage mode Hashirama>EMS Madara + Kyuubi>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara>Tobirama>=Izuna

I hope you get what i meant

Sorry for my mistakes but english is not my first language ;/

Do you agree or not ?, if you disagree then explain why

 

[Vandenre1ch]

In the end Hashirama>/=EMS Madara+Kyuubi. The two of them are almost equals. The last chapter doesnt change that.

 

[SonictheHedgehog]

Agreed, everyone plus in the latest chapter wasn't Tobirama helping? Whatever though, haters can hate. I agree Hashi > Mad but it's definately not easy.

 

[muutobirama3rdraikagemizu]

hashirama has several biju, wood golem, 1000 hands ems madara has 9 tails, hashirama would win


current madara is a different story, both are my top 2 and 3 characters so IDGAF

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[ChiefHermit]

doesn't matter, madara still behind hashirama

 

[KCMNaruto]

hashirama has several biju, wood golem, 1000 hands ems madara has 9 tails, hashirama would win


current madara is a different story, both are my top 2 and 3 characters so IDGAF

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You are right, and I agree with Hashirama>Madara, although i think base Hashirama>=EMS Madara. However I think power difference between of them is small, they are closer to each other than people think.

 

[HashiramasStrongerCousin1]

"surely MS Madara could use Complete Sussano."
Uhhh... Don't you need Rinnegan to summon Perfect Susano'o?

 

[KCMNaruto]

doesn't matter, madara still behind hashirama

No it does matter, but yeah Madara was still behind Hashirama but not far behind him. There is small difference between them, obviously excluding Sage mode for Hashirama, because if I had to include Sage mode for Hashirama and EMS Madara without Kyuubi then it would be like that:

Sage Hashirama >> EMS Madara or even Sage Hashirama >>> EMS Madara

 

[Ryuujinn]

hashirama has several biju, wood golem, 1000 hands ems madara has 9 tails, hashirama would win


current madara is a different story, both are my top 2 and 3 characters so IDGAF

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I dont understand you earlier u said juubi is uchiha power now u getting hurt bcoz hashi controlled all bijuus lol

in the fight i dont seen any bijuu helping hashi n wood dragon is his jutsu its 1 vs 2 but madara still got beaten

however i do agree current madara > hashi ( bcoz hashi dna n motukun )

 

[KCMNaruto]

"surely MS Madara could use Complete Sussano."
Uhhh... Don't you need Rinnegan to summon Perfect Susano'o?

No, Complete Sussano is what sussano with armor completly cloaked and Perfect Sussano is even higher version.

I could look up for scans, but I don't have time for that now ;/

Anyway, please read Naruto manga chapter 620, where in the end Madara use Perfect Sussano unstable form to protect himself from bijuu dama of Kyuubi and in chapter 621, you can see Madara Perfect Sussano unstable form cloaked around Kyuubi

 

[blackstar9]

I agree. If the power difference was so great they wouldn't be rivals. There is no rivalry between the hammer and nail. If hashi was way stronger he would have finished him during one of their earlier battles.

 

[apple pie of doom]

As far as the story goes, madara and hashirama were talked of as equals, so yes, madara was only slightly inferior, but not by such a large degree that hashirama could win without going all out.

 

[thegame]

What a long thread for mere assumptions, and here I thought someone had it all figured out...

That said I do agree with the assumptions, they are/were about equals all the time, even in the ending fight they were almost equal. There is no Madara << Hashirama.. In the end Madara had Kurama as part of his power. People just neglect that, but it's alpha omega to understand that his "change" is not an improvement in EMS control. His true improvement, is because he learned, how to control Kurama, and how to combine it with his EMS i.e. Susanoo. But of course Hashi improved as well with Sage mode.

 

[cmilius]

Madara didn't need training to use ems because ems is an upgrated version of the ms user. Thought the manga clear this out already that even with ems madara was very inferior to hashi and madara said it a lot of time that the shinobi world call hashi the strongest ninja wasn't that clear to you.

 

[KCMNaruto]

I agree. If the power difference was so great they wouldn't be rivals. There is no rivalry between the hammer and nail. If hashi was way stronger he would have finished him during one of their earlier battles.

I have same thoughts

 

[KCMNaruto]

What a long thread for mere assumptions, and here I thought someone had it all figured out...

That said I do agree with the assumptions, they are/were about equals all the time, even in the ending fight they were almost equal. There is no Madara << Hashirama.. In the end Madara had Kurama as part of his power. People just neglect that, but it's alpha omega to understand that his "change" is not an improvement in EMS control. His true improvement, is because he learned, how to control Kurama, and how to combine it with his EMS i.e. Susanoo. But of course Hashi improved as well with Sage mode.

You are right , so in the end you agree with me.

Prove is Hashirama without sage mode couldn't defeat Madara in vote battle, but again Madara has Kyuubi in battle.

IMO: Sage Hashirama>=EMS Madara(vote) + Kyuubi>>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara(vote)>EMS Madara(624 chapter)

you are right with saying Madara has Kurama as part of his power, but I think he mastered use of his EMS, maybe it is wrong but for now manga doesn't deny that possibility.

 

[thegame]

You are right , so in the end you agree with me.

Prove is Hashirama without sage mode couldn't defeat Madara in vote battle, but again Madara has Kyuubi in battle.

IMO: Sage Hashirama>=EMS Madara + Kyuubi>>Base Hashirama>=EMS Madara(vote)>EMS Madara(624 chapter)

you are right with saying Madara has Kurama as part of his power, but I think he mastered use of his EMS, maybe it is wrong but for now manga doesn't deny that possibility.

It's not like "mastering" EMS/MS techniques take long for a genius. Take Sasuke or Obito (a none genius even) for instance. It's more about experience with how you use it, but even that Sasuke mastered in his 2nd battle with MS... Madara was fighting 24/7 so he could easily get experience and train his eyes. Well maybe Madara just isn't as talented as Sasuke =)
But yeah I agree with most.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Madara didn't need training to use ems because ems is an upgrated version of the ms user. Thought the manga clear this out already that even with ems madara was very inferior to hashi and madara said it a lot of time that the shinobi world call hashi the strongest ninja wasn't that clear to you.

I disagree, first Manga doesn't deny possibility of training to improve use of EMS. It could make sense for Sasuke to not show full power of EMS, until he train and improve use of it.

Please show me scans where manga states that you can use full power of EMS after accquired it without any training to use it better. Why then did Madara leave Konoha for quite some time? Obviously you can say that it was to search Kurama and learn to control it, but I think he wanted to unleash full power of EMS too, so he needed to improve use of it.

Show me scans where Madara admit that he is very inferior to hashirama, or Hashirama saying that Madara is very inferior to him, I am waiting.

Last your sentence lol, If Hashirama was even stronger than Madara by small margin then Hashirama still should be the strongest shinobi, and Madara could still call him, his supperior. If what you said is true then Madara wouldn't have some many clashes with Hashirama, or he couldn't fought against Hashirama for 24 hours straight, it only show that I am closer to be right. I could even go that far and say that Hashirama=Madara, but Hashirama amount of chakra>>Madara amount of chakra, he could simply outlast madara in chakra amount.

I won't try to convince by force that I am right, you are free to believe what you want, but please consider it that we didn't see any battle from begining to end, so we can't say what jutsu they used, who had upperhand and how long, it is simply our assumption. I hope you get what I mean

 

[KCMNaruto]

It's not like "mastering" EMS/MS techniques take long for a genius. Take Sasuke or Obito (a none genius even) for instance. It's more about experience with how you use it, but even that Sasuke mastered in his 2nd battle with MS... Madara was fighting 24/7 so he could easily get experience and train his eyes. Well maybe Madara just isn't as talented as Sasuke =)
But yeah I agree with most.

Yeah I agree with you. Although maybe Madara's eyes had simply more potential in them than Itachi's eyes, Obito's eyes and Sasuke's eyes. We don't know it, it could be that mastering EMS is much more difficult and longer process than mastering MS, remember that we have only two Uchiha with EMS so far. Sasuke didn't even use it a lot, only once against Kabuto but Kishi wanted to show off Itachi then. Maybe Madara was blinded by hate so he couldn't use EMS well instead fought without focusing. I know it sounds now as exccuse I give Madara now, but we can't deny that possibility.

Another prove would be why did Obito want Sasuke to stay in his base ?, I know he said: "you have to need for your eyes to recover" or something like that.

Maybe merging process of EMS require some time to perfectly merge them into EMS design, reaching full power. Maybe Madara simply didn't know it back then and after accquiring EMS, he simply rushed to battle Hashirama, didn't give time for his eyes to perfectly merge and reach it full power, i think it would make sense.

Even Sasuke said: "I feel Itachi power flowing into my eyes, I get stronger and stronger", or something like that, could it be that Izuna power was still flowing into Madara's eys and he become stronger and stronger, but when he fought Hashirama, this process slow down or stopped.

Then Madara left Konoha to reach full power of EMS, then search for Kyuubi and attack Hashirama in vote battle.

Sometimes I wonder if full potential of EMS is possibilty to use all MS jutsu can users have(Kamui, amaterasu, Tsyukomii, Kotoamatsukomi, Sussano), it would be badass.

LOL as Madara wasn't as talented as Sasuke,
IMO: Madara's talent=Itachi's talent>Sasuke's talent, but
Madara's eyes>Sasuke'eyes>=Itachi's eyes

 

[tethian]

Hashirama was stronger than Madara as a child and stronger than him as an adult.

In the end Tobirama is arguably stronger than Madara aswell.