[Discussion] Edo Tensei, Rinne Tensei and the failure of the moonseye plan

[Kikki]

Asking all the specialists here. What do you guys think? Maybe I'm getting the facts wrong but this is how I understand rinne tensei and edo tensei. Plus I think the moonseye plan was impossible to start:

-rinne tensei: can only be used by people who have the Rinnegan. The caster dies along with using it (see Nagato). When you use it, it's pure world ressurrection, which means the soul of a deceased person returns to its original body, body stand back up, is alive again. It was shown once when Nagato used it. Those who died in his battle against Konoha were revived. Not more not less. No one else. Just those dead bodies stood back up, fully alive again. And he said he casted it on the people of the village so yeah, you can indeed cast it on a certain target it seems.

-edo tensei: created by second hokage for battle advantage, perfected by Oro and Kabuto. The caster obtains the dna of the person he wants to return. A sacrifice is needed, someone gets killed and the dead body is used as a host for the jutsu. The soul gets forced to return to said body (so it's not the original one). The body gains looks, personality and jutsu of the owner of said soul, then gets controlled by the caster. The edo body cannot die. When it gets hit, the parts are somewhat recollected, thus the body heals itself. Same when the person breaks out of et like Itachi. Only way to stop the edo is stunning and sealing it, or self-dissolving, or breaking of the jutsu.

Do I get it right? So how in the world was the silly moonseye plan meant to work? If Nagato would have used rt on Madara, it would have made his soul return to his original body. Said body should still be at mountain graveyard, fallen to dust by now. Even if Obito casts that jutsu now, what would happen? First, Madara has to let go of his edo body so his soul is free again (otherwise it won't work since the soul is stuck in a moving corpse), then that soul would return to the orginal (now fallen to dust) body, then someone (who ever) would have to seal the juubi in that body. So all in all we can say, the moonseye plan is one big giant failure. It's not even possible anymore or do I get things wrong?

Unless Kishi introduces some new rules, the moonseye plan failed. Or am I wrong?

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

couple things here...

nagato died because of the amount of people he brought back he didn't bring one person he brought back a whole village, one question is why didn't he bring back yahiko?? maybe he did not know of the abilities of rinni also there is no problem with being brought back old if you have the rinni ...recently in the anime nagato was fighting and sucked naruto chackra or soul (im not sure) but nagato became young again ...his leg healed his hair became red again and became younger.

also moons eye plan is just a really really really big illusion ( kind of like aizen's zankpaktou....complete hypnosis...for the bleach watchers)

 

[vmjs]

its a good point of view but like the all manga there are some loop holes.. and thats one of them...sometimes things just happen and there is no explanation...if madara gets revived by rinne tensei i bet we would appear has young as he is now and there would be no explanation...as there was no explanation of obito mask being the same as that spiral zetsu...and if the body that was fighting minato was óbitos body or the zetsu body cause obito was very young...there are loop holes..

 

[thunderghost]

I could only say 1 first.. Until we see how the Moon's Eye Plan can happen.. we will never know how the kishi has planned it out.. We donno that which jutsu is more powerful, rinne tensei or Edo tensei.. and i dont think you require a original body for Rinne tensei.. because many people were killed and probably burnt completely during pain's attack on konoha.. so i donno how nagato is able to revive burnt bodies.. +
I think for the moon's eye plan to work.. Rinne Tensei should be super powerful enough to bring back a trapped soul (trapped in other body by Edo tensei) in a very old deadbody or even without a deadbody.. In Naruto, we can say only 1 thing.. We cannot decide on anything for sure.. unless a particular justu is shown repeated or explained by some character.. Since Edo Tensei is explained by many people, we know its abilities and limitations.. but Rinne Tensei is not explained at all.. it is just shown once by nagato.. that he can revive people by rinne tensei.. we donno.. what are its conditions..

Asking all the specialists here. What do you guys think? Maybe I'm getting the facts wrong but this is how I understand rinne tensei and edo tensei. Plus I think the moonseye plan was impossible to start:

-rinne tensei: can only be used by people who have the Rinnegan. The caster dies along with using it (see Nagato). When you use it, it's pure world ressurrection, which means the soul of a deceased person returns to its original body, body stand back up, is alive again. It was shown once when Nagato used it. Those who died in his battle against Konoha were revived. Not more not less. No one else. Just those dead bodies stood back up, fully alive again. And he said he casted it on the people of the village so yeah, you can indeed cast it on a certain target it seems.

-edo tensei: created by second hokage for battle advantage, perfected by Oro and Kabuto. The caster obtains the dna of the person he wants to return. A sacrifice is needed, someone gets killed and the dead body is used as a host for the jutsu. The soul gets forced to return to said body (so it's not the original one). The body gains looks, personality and jutsu of the owner of said soul, then gets controlled by the caster. The edo body cannot die. When it gets hit, the parts are somewhat recollected, thus the body heals itself. Same when the person breaks out of et like Itachi. Only way to stop the edo is stunning and sealing it, or self-dissolving, or breaking of the jutsu.

Do I get it right? So how in the world was the silly moonseye plan meant to work? If Nagato would have used rt on Madara, it would have made his soul return to his original body. Said body should still be at mountain graveyard, fallen to dust by now. Even if Obito casts that jutsu now, what would happen? First, Madara has to let go of his edo body so his soul is free again (otherwise it won't work since the soul is stuck in a moving corpse), then that soul would return to the orginal (now fallen to dust) body, then someone (who ever) would have to seal the juubi in that body. So all in all we can say, the moonseye plan is one big giant failure. It's not even possible anymore or do I get things wrong?

Unless Kishi introduces some new rules, the moonseye plan failed. Or am I wrong?

 

[Kikki]

couple things here...

nagato died because of the amount of people he brought back he didn't bring one person he brought back a whole village, one question is why didn't he bring back yahiko?? maybe he did not know of the abilities of rinni also there is no problem with being brought back old if you have the rinni ...recently in the anime nagato was fighting and sucked naruto chackra or soul (im not sure) but nagato became young again ...his leg healed his hair became red again and became younger.

also moons eye plan is just a really really really big illusion ( kind of like aizen's zankpaktou....complete hypnosis...for the bleach watchers)

Could be but Obito said it would kill him and he won't do it. We probably need more information or there are too many plot holes. The moonseye plan can only work when you can control the juubi. Currently nobody can or does. I wonder if it goes on a rampage anyway.

 

[vmjs]

couple things here...

nagato died because of the amount of people he brought back he didn't bring one person he brought back a whole village, one question is why didn't he bring back yahiko?? maybe he did not know of the abilities of rinni also there is no problem with being brought back old if you have the rinni ...recently in the anime nagato was fighting and sucked naruto chackra or soul (im not sure) but nagato became young again ...his leg healed his hair became red again and became younger.

also moons eye plan is just a really really really big illusion ( kind of like aizen's zankpaktou....complete hypnosis...for the bleach watchers)

you have a point there..but like jiraya maybe he couldnt bring back yahiko cause it was a long time ago...and you said it right...even if madara gets revived na old man..with his rinnegan he could suck someone else energy and get young again...but that creates another loop hole...why he gave the rinnegan to nagato if he could just suck the energy of someone else and still be alive..?

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

you have a point there..but like jiraya maybe he couldnt bring back yahiko cause it was a long time ago...and you said it right...even if madara gets revived na old man..with his rinnegan he could suck someone else energy and get young again...but that creates another loop hole...why he gave the rinnegan to nagato if he could just suck the energy of someone else and still be alive..?

lmao loop holes on top of loop holes loopception ...just thinking about it is annoying.

 

[Kikki]

Yeah loop holes, the more I think about that manga, the more I get braindamaged!

 

[the last shinobi]

couple things here...

nagato died because of the amount of people he brought back he didn't bring one person he brought back a whole village, one question is why didn't he bring back yahiko?? maybe he did not know of the abilities of rinni also there is no problem with being brought back old if you have the rinni ...recently in the anime nagato was fighting and sucked naruto chackra or soul (im not sure) but nagato became young again ...his leg healed his hair became red again and became younger.

also moons eye plan is just a really really really big illusion ( kind of like aizen's zankpaktou....complete hypnosis...for the bleach watchers)

one time for the bleach watchers

 

[Whiteknight]

-rinne tensei: can only be used by people who have the Rinnegan. The caster dies along with using it (see Nagato). When you use it, it's pure world ressurrection, which means the soul of a deceased person returns to its original body, body stand back up, is alive again. It was shown once when Nagato used it. Those who died in his battle against Konoha were revived. Not more not less. No one else. Just those dead bodies stood back up, fully alive again. And he said he casted it on the people of the village so yeah, you can indeed cast it on a certain target it seems.

We saw the technique used once, by one person, in extreme circumstances. Remember that Nagato had just fought THE ENTIRE LEAF VILLAGE BY HIMSELF, and then fought Naruto with Sage mode and 9-tails fox power. When Nagato used Rinne Tensei, Konan recognized the jutsu (she must have seen it before) and she commented that if he used it in his current condition he would die. This implies that, if he were at full power, he would not have died.

Keep in mind also that Nagato revived everybody in the leaf village, probably several hundred people all at once. Madara says Obito would die if he revived Madara alone. These two things are not similar amounts of effort (and with Hashirama's DNA, we have to assume Obito has plenty of chakra, like Nagato had).

If we assume that the amount of chakra required by Rinne Tensei is a multiple of the number of people to revive times the effort to revive an individual, we can make the following comparison:

Effort to revive many recently deceased ninja = Effort to revive one long-dead ninja.

Also remember that Nagato was able to use his abilities to restore the bodies of his 6 paths puppets that had been destroyed during the attack on the leaf. If he can repair a body smashed or shredded by Naruto, he can definitely restore Madara's body.

Kishi hasn't gone into any details, but if we make these assumptions there is no contradiction or plot hole.

Do I get it right? So how in the world was the silly moonseye plan meant to work? If Nagato would have used rt on Madara, it would have made his soul return to his original body. Said body should still be at mountain graveyard, fallen to dust by now. Even if Obito casts that jutsu now, what would happen? First, Madara has to let go of his edo body so his soul is free again (otherwise it won't work since the soul is stuck in a moving corpse), then that soul would return to the orginal (now fallen to dust) body, then someone (who ever) would have to seal the juubi in that body. So all in all we can say, the moonseye plan is one big giant failure. It's not even possible anymore or do I get things wrong?

Nagato would have used Rinne Tensei to bring the soul back from the pure realm, and would have used his other techniques to restore Madara's body to it's prime. There's no problem here.