EDO Madara vs EMS Madara
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NeutralChaos
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Edo Madara has infinite chakra. If he can use 25 clones with Susano'o with legs, what's stopping him from upgrading them to perfect susano'o? Besides, the logic here is horrible. The battle can go exactly like how Madara vs. Hashirama did until he got Kurama to sleep, and then it's just EMS Madara against Edo Madara, which is slaughter. Edo Madara also could just pull out the Gedo Mazo and remove Kurama. Either way, I doubt Kurama could take on 25 susano'o. It's truly illogical.
KidGamer65
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He has chakra that never runs out. We've already seen with the Edo Hokage that their chakra isn't infinite, hence them having a limit on the number of clones they can make.
Except its not going to go like that:
1. Madara doesn't have the jutsu that puts Bijuu to sleep.
2. He doesn't have the firepower to break through Perfect Susanoo to suppress Kurama with Mokuton.
3. He doesn't have any Mokuton jutsu that didn't already get countered by PS Kurama in canon.
lmao. Read above buddy. Gedo Mazo has been countered. What happens here, is PS Kurama and PS fight, naturally, PS Kurama>PS by itself, so PS gets smashed open by Bijuu Dama barrage and EMS Madara chops up his Edo counterpart and seals him away.
NeutralChaos
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That's what infinite means. It continue to rises, but can have a limit. No matter what scenario you make, Edo Madara cannot lose here. He can create a forest, even one that sprouts the powder to incapacitate, and than create susano'o clones all around Kurama. Pretty sure he won't tank a bunch of Yasaka Magatamas or multiple Almighty Pushes, which would squeeze and break the perfect susano'o armor. Don't forget as well, that Edo Madara can freeze people, as shown against Sasuke.
KidGamer65
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Again. That has been proven wrong.
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The barrier took up a lot of their chakra so there was a limit to the amount of clones that could be made. That wouldn't have happened if they had infinite amounts of chakra.
PS Slash or Bijuu Dama wipes any Mokuton forest off the battlefield.
His 25 Susanoo clones get eradicated by Bijuu Dama or PS Slash.
Perfect Susanoo tanked Bijuu Dama. Shinra Tensei and especially Yasaka Magatama aren't doing anything to it. Yasaka Magatama's best feat is piercing Gaara's quick made Sand Shield and damaging the golem Onoki had layered under it. It didn't even get through. PS>Onoki and Gaara's shield so it gets tanked, no damage. Not to mention Shinra Tensei has a 5 second cooldown, he isn't using more than one at a time.
First of all, that's his Limbo clone holding the person in place. Second of all, that was Living Rinnegan Madara, who could access the Rinnegan's full power. Not Edo Madara, who can't. So no, he doesn't have Limbo Hengoku here so he can't do this.
kyubbi sagemode
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For people saying edo madara can someone please tell me how he can get past ps kurama?
ARGUS
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ems madara wins this
--once he armors kurama in PS then edo madaras base mokuton mean nothing.. As PS kurama definitely has more firepower and DC then PS alone (which is still edo madaras full power)
--tengai shinsei is not doing anything.. Since the meteor are easily destroyed by PS-kurama and edo madAra staying stationary to form the meteor would be his downfall since he would get overwhelmed rather quickly by ps-kurama during the time he forms the meteors
--once he armors kurama in PS then edo madaras base mokuton mean nothing.. As PS kurama definitely has more firepower and DC then PS alone (which is still edo madaras full power)
--tengai shinsei is not doing anything.. Since the meteor are easily destroyed by PS-kurama and edo madAra staying stationary to form the meteor would be his downfall since he would get overwhelmed rather quickly by ps-kurama during the time he forms the meteors
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TheOneWhoSpeaksTruth
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This. Madara knows the seals, so this thread is one huge contradiction.
TRE MERCER
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One bijuudaman Ps sword turn Tengai Shensei into small debris.
NeutralChaos
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Who says the barrier wasn't restricting their chakra regeneration? I'm sorry, but this is quite hard to explain to someone who just keeps saying "a herpa derpa perfect susano'o slash ahuurrrr tailed beast bomb." Last time I checked, the wood style was able to both reflect, and hold a tailed beast bomb. If he couldn't defeat Hashirama, he has no chance of beating Hashirama + Madara + Rinnegan in one. He can't take out all the susano'o with one tailed beasts bomb or slash because they circle him. He'd get ambushed by a wood dragon, 25+ susano'o(obviously not his max amount, he just wanted to turn the tables), a meteorite, and blasts from the mechanical path. Then While distracted or worn out, seals Kurama with the Gedo Mazo.
KidGamer65
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The barrier used up chakra. That's it. If you are trying to imply anything else, go get some evidence first like you are supposed to do and then come back. Its hard to explain this to someone who keeps saying "a herpa derpa infinite chakra ahuurrrr mokuton herp derp"
Last time I checked, Mokuton
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a Bijuu Dama Blade from PS Kurama, leading to Hashirama having to deflect it with
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. Why don't you sit down, and read the damn manga before listing jutsu EMS Madara already defeated in canon? At this point I'm reading the manga to you.Except, Edo Madara isn't this fanfictional Hashirama+Madara+Rinnegan in one. He can't use all of Hashirama's jutsu nor can he use Shinsuusenju, or his Sage Mode, nor can he use the Rinnegan's full power,
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like I stated above. Something you failed to read AFTER I TOLD YOU TO DO SO.Except, you are wrong. Bijuu Dama will
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if Madara simply fires to the ground.
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. When V3 Susanoo can withstand any of these then we can talk.Except, Susanoo tanked a Bijuu Dama, so a meteor isn't doing shit (And that same meteor was cut up by PS, so Madara does it again here), missiles from Asura Path aren't doing shit either. And
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. Stop mentioning it. PS Kurama fires its Bijuu Dama barrage, blows PS to shit and seals Edo Madara.
NeutralChaos
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. The wood style can hold a tailed beast bomb, as well as reflect it. Also, no where does it state that Madara could not use the Gedo Mazo. The tailed beast asked whether or not he could summon it with a fake Rinnegan, and did not state that he couldn't have. Once again though, EMS Madara would get barraged by attacks. He can only deal with the meteorite, the susano'o, or the wood dragon. In which case the other two would crush Kurama. As shown, Madara can create a bunch of wood hands that can catch your tailed beast bombs, and throw them back at him, along with other susano'o coming from the behind. And if you're so sure, that since a perfect susano'o can just tank a tailed beast bomb, then so can Edo Madara's, and in case he were to get damaged, he has that infinite chakra that would just repair him.
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Gold Lightning
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I thought Kabuto said he revived Madara beyond his prime more than once. This is double Rinnegan we're talking about, Preta Path, Meteors, Gedo Mazou and even Wood Release.
Seems like he's a tier above EMS.
Seems like he's a tier above EMS.
KidGamer65
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-Madara puts blade in Bijuu Dama.
-Madara says "Now you can't get it anymore"
-Instead of using Mokuton, he uses Rashomon.
Read before you reply. Bijuu Dama with blades in them can't be caught as the blade will tear the Mokuton apart. Its really a matter of common sense. I even posted the scan and you still replied saying he can catch them..lol
Son Goku asked if he can summon it with a fake Rinnegan, which is a heavy implication that he can't do it. So I have no reason to believe that he can't do it. Fake Rinnegan can't bring out the full power of the eye, as they are fake. Hence why Madara started summoning the Mazo, and started using Limbo AFTER he was revived. Not before. Either way, PS wrecks the Mazo, and like I ALSO stated above, its chains can't get past Susanoo to suppress the beast, so its moot either way.
What? Not only can Madara not use all these jutsu at the same time (Which gives EMS time to counter) one Bijuu Dama would wreck the Susanoo and the Mokuryu, as stated in the post I just replied to, and the meteor would be tanked. Or he'd blow up the meteor and tank Mokuryu and Susanoo clones, only to obliterate them after the meteor has been obliterated. He doesn't need to deal with them at the same time since none of them can't get past his Susaoo.
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All I am going to say to this post, as well as the others who think EMS Madara wins against a superior version is Lol.
OT:
I have seen a lot of members on the base claim that Madara has no counter for the Shinsuusenju, however as you can see in the title, i am here to disprove that claim by giving out a very detailed calculations using maths and physics, analysing manga panels and i will also use some of real logic where it will apply for the manga of course. I had to do so much research on meteor and had to watch videos as well. So please read through and respect my effort. Even though i made a thread like this before, but this one is much better.
Enjoy
Misconception of the meteor's size
This is a misunderstanding of the meteor size. A lot of people tend to think that meteor is smaller than mountain due to this scan:
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Because PS is mountain size and meteor is smaller than PS. However this is their mistake. The rock next to PS is only the remains of the meteor. When Madara dropped the second meteor, the 2 has collided violently causing them to divide into four fragment of rocks. These scans will help:
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and it resulted to this conclusion:
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The rock in which you see above is actually the second remain of the meteor. In the panel where the 2 rocks collide with each, we can hardly see cracks on them but when we see them in anime, it becomes much clearer:
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We can see 4 cracks on each of the sides of the 1st meteor. These cracks suggest they have been completely destroyed, so the rocks we see next to PS would be the 2nd meteor although it appears to have been damaged significantly to the point where it looked almost like a triangular conical shape more like this:
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But of course i already thought about the size of the meteor and i will do my calculations of it.
Meteor's Size
This is where i will use maths on the meteor size.
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I'll use the stone pillars that are a little to the right of the OVERWHELMING!!!, which I marked. The rock pillars average about 20m tall. They are roughly 5px tall in this panel.
The red line represents the height of the meteor, which is 207px, making it 828m high.
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Here we see the meteor, and if you look very closely (or just zoom in) you can see the rock pillars just to the right of the ! after OVERWHELMING!!! These are roughly 5px tall. The meteor is 445px long, that makes it 1780m tall. The meteor is also 410px wide, making it 1,640m wide.
Now for the volume, lets just use the ellipsoid calculator.
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Input the results
A=890
B=820
C=820
Total Volume = 2,506,722,854.99155m^3
Meteor velocity = 38.26 km/s
mass = 2,507,686,214*2700 = 6770752777800 kg
That means the meteor Madara produced is not only bigger than the Shinsuusenju but its weight is much much much heavier.
Shinsuusenju's Size
So based on his calculations, Shinsuusenju is about a Killometer half or less. However my calculations on the meteor proves that meteor dwarfs the Shinsuusenju. Therefore meteor is bigger than the buddah. That's one proof that it can destroy it.
Meteor's Falling Speed
This is going to be hard because we first need to know the size Naruto's planet so i decided to calculate that as well.
Naruto's size planet
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Although its not accurate i have to say but i will need it for my thread. Its better than non.
(359/67.68)*88,413.75km = 468,979.55 km - circumference
Naruto planets diameter = 468,979.55/pi = 149,280.8 km
I will be using this website to give me better idea of how to calculate the meteor's falling speed:
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If you guys read the website, you will know that my calculations are correct. So by following the formula we get this result:
Meteor Velocity = sqrt((2*6.673*10^-11*8.187E+26)/(74640.4*1000)) = 38.26 km/s
The meteor falling speed is absolutely high. People seem not to understand physics very well. They think that Shinsuusenju can push it back because of its arms, however based on the calculations on the meteor i done as well as its speed, this will make it impossible to push back due not only its weight is too heavy but meteor is falling from space. Therefore Shinsuusenju will get destroyed badly.
Meteor's Raw Power
Now to move on why the meteor has enough power to destroy the shinsuusenju. I will be using some real life pics as well as manga facts in conjunction. So now that i have calculated the mass/weight and its falling speed and i came up with unbelievable results, it should be safe to conclude the meteor can destroy the shinsuusenju. Take a look at this:
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This is a very accurate way to judge the raw power of the meteor. So when it falls, these happens:
-its earth quake fireball extends over 10km
-people die after 40km
-hurricane and earth quake spreads violently over 40km
Mother of god. To think the meteor has this much force. People will complain about its real life but this logic has applied to the manga as well. Take a look at this:
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[video=youtube;0LAttQ3yCjY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LAttQ3yCjY#t=238[/video]
As you can see, the meteor earth quake was enough to reach from Gaara's division location all the way to Komugakure. Doing the maths:
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Red line = 10px = at least 8137 km
red line + blue line = 145px = 117,986km for the distance between hq and the current battle. (and this is a low end to since the desert is actually farther than8,137km.
So the distance is 8137 + 137 = 8274km.
So the raw power of the meteor is the bold. So far, there is no jutsu introduced in the manga could match the power of the meteor. The fact that Kabuto called it the power of Rikudou Sennin is a true testament to the meteor's power.
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Now comparing some of the crater of Shinsuusenju and the meteor:
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But of course, because the meteor is bigger and faster than the Shinsuusenju, the crate it would leave is too massive to estimate.
So for those who are gonna say didn't read lol, i will make it simpler since none of you are going to read it.
-Meteor dwarfs the shinsuusenju
-Its falling speed makes it impossible for the statue to punch it back specially with its mass and speed.
-Meteor's raw power and destruction is so far the greatest in the manga making it the most destructible jutsu.
Please be respectful, give a thanks as well if you want and comment.
Thank You...Madara Rules
NeutralChaos
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Kurama isn't even a factor in this fight. Both Madara share the same soul and contracts. Edo Madara can summon and de-summon Kurama whenever he feels like it, since EMS Madara isn't an actual host. I believe this discussion is over.
KidGamer65
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Same contract doesn't mean that he can desummon a summoned beast that someone else called for, especially if its against the beast will (Which is Madara's will due to Sharingan) Kurama has no place to go back to so it can't be desummoned and sent away.
So yeah, you've resorted to grasping at straws since you couldn't prove that Edo Madara can defeat EMS Madara and Kurama. So this discussion is over. EMS Madara wins mid diff.
NeutralChaos
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Actually, Madara is the same person, don't delude yourself. I'm not grasping at straws, but am using cheap tactics now, since you won't listen to reason. Edo Madara has stronger eyes and can take control, or de-summon the beast.
KidGamer65
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Its irrelevant. As I said above. They are two separate entities for this match. I have no reason to believe that he can de summon a beast that not only has nowhere to go, but a beast that he didn't call for. When you can get something backing these nonsense claims then we can talk.
If listening to reason=Agreeing with your shitty arugments that I and the manga shat on multiple times. Then yeah, I'm not listening to "reason".
Rinnegan has no Ocular Genjutsu properties so its irrelevant, and they both have EMS. So again, you're wrong.
If you aren't going to come up with anything else, then we're done here.