Edo Hiruzen vs Kakazu and Hidan

[Nattana]

Edo Hiruzen wins comfortably.

 

[Zexion~]

Lmao not sure what you are looking at but it's not that scan. The middle where they clash is where the expansion is shown just like any other clash in this Manga. Also like any other elemental jutsu the stream that connects the jutsu to the user's mouth is slim while the ends of the jutsu are large. Then we have the fact that they are as long as the distance between Shinsuusenju and Hiruzen. That length is the main reason why Hiruzen's jutsu are far larger, because the length contributes to the overall size and power of the jutsu.

No part of that jutsu is human size. We can clearly see humans compared to that jutsu so I have no idea where human size is coming from. As for those trees, they are not boss summon sized. They are tall. That's it and those trees are no taller than the trees in most forests that appear in this Manga.

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Lmao I hope you don't really think that 50m+ area worth of Bijuu can fit inside of Atsugai.

What? Why did you just link that random scan of tree's like it means anything my man?

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They were fighting amongst the top of the tree's they can be more than 4-5x bigger than a human meanwhile the roots of the dry tree's were taller than humans

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.

Just take Hidan's whole exchange on one, dude free-falled for a time and still didn't get close to the end

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So maybe they're not as large as the Bijuu (after they were increased in size) but they're still pretty big and AGAIN the clash in the Hiruzen panel don't even reach half of the smaller Buddha version.

I'm not saying it can fit 50M of Bijuu because its semi-spherical but it has hella range, just the same as the ones in the scan except its not a stream so it has the larger AoE.

So you are agreeing that the size in the middle there shouldn't even accurately represent the size of the jutsu? You're honestly going to tell me that the fire jutsu there is larger than Kakuzu's? It may be LONGER but if they clashed it definitely wouldn't overpower it because of that simple reason, AND the fact that its a stream until it clashes ( a small stream) means its easier to be dodged.

Literally the only one that is larger than Kakuzu's most definitely is the raiton but that doesn't even matter because Raiton isn't about size (raikiri)

And Domu tanks everything but raiton here lol idk I feel like this matchup is thrown out the window too quick.

 

[KidGamer65]

What? Why did you just link that random scan of tree's like it means anything my man?

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They were fighting amongst the top of the tree's they can be more than 4-5x bigger than a human meanwhile the roots of the dry tree's were taller than humans

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.

Just take Hidan's whole exchange on one, dude free-falled for a time and still didn't get close to the end

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So maybe they're not as large as the Bijuu (after they were increased in size) but they're still pretty big and AGAIN the clash in the Hiruzen panel don't even reach half of the smaller Buddha version.

I'm not saying it can fit 50M of Bijuu because its semi-spherical but it has hella range, just the same as the ones in the scan except its not a stream so it has the larger AoE.

So you are agreeing that the size in the middle there shouldn't even accurately represent the size of the jutsu? You're honestly going to tell me that the fire jutsu there is larger than Kakuzu's? It may be LONGER but if they clashed it definitely wouldn't overpower it because of that simple reason, AND the fact that its a stream until it clashes ( a small stream) means its easier to be dodged.

Literally the only one that is larger than Kakuzu's most definitely is the raiton but that doesn't even matter because Raiton isn't about size (raikiri)

And Domu tanks everything but raiton here lol idk I feel like this matchup is thrown out the window too quick.

:lol That scan shows Obito on top of the trees in that forest. What can be seen is not even half of the tree's height yet it's still over 4x taller than Obito. Not sure what your rebuttal is supposed to accomplish here, but we can see the trees compared perfectly to humans in

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. The size of their roots doesn't matter. In terms of tree trunk width they are nowhere near Bijuu sized. In terms of height they obviously don't dwarf the trees that Obito, B and Naruto were fighting in based on what we can see of the tree compared to Obito's height. Hidan free falling is irrelevant unless someone learned how to accurately measure time in a still panel. So no, they are definitely nowhere near any Bijuu in size regardless of their state. SZ's Shinsuusenju is also easily larger than any Bijuu so Hiruzen's elements not being as large isn't a detriment.

No, I'm not agreeing with that. Whatever expansion you see is shown

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. Still extremely easy to determine which jutsu is which and how big each jutsu is. No clash in this Manga has ever resulted in an extremely out of ordinary sized representation of the individual attacks. All these jutsu surpass Kakuzu's in size. Kakuzu's Katon doesn't get that large until after it explodes first of all, so Hiruzen's Katon would clash with it's initial form and blow through it, or it'd just rip through the explosion. Overall size is what matters here and Hiruzen's elements surpass Kakuzu's in overall size. Width isn't the only factor of size so why would one tech being wider automatically translate to said attack being able to match the other? That doesn't make sense.

"Easier to dodge"

That's a whole different story altogether. And no, it's obviously not a stream before it clashes. Where in the world are you getting this stuff from? These work just how any other elemental jutsu in this Manga has worked.

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That is how large 1 element is for example, except the length would be doubled.




The only thing to debate about this match up as a whole is how badly Hiruzen beats Kakuzu. Domu tanking everything but Raiton doesn't help him here because Hiruzen has Raiton, and it'd overpower any attack Kakuzu has except for Fuuton.

 

[Zexion~]

:lol That scan shows Obito on top of the trees in that forest. What can be seen is not even half of the tree's height yet it's still over 4x taller than Obito. Not sure what your rebuttal is supposed to accomplish here, but we can see the trees compared perfectly to humans in

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. The size of their roots doesn't matter. In terms of tree trunk width they are nowhere near Bijuu sized. In terms of height they obviously don't dwarf the trees that Obito, B and Naruto were fighting in based on what we can see of the tree compared to Obito's height. Hidan free falling is irrelevant unless someone learned how to accurately measure time in a still panel. So no, they are definitely nowhere near any Bijuu in size regardless of their state. SZ's Shinsuusenju is also easily larger than any Bijuu so Hiruzen's elements not being as large isn't a detriment.

No, I'm not agreeing with that. Whatever expansion you see is shown

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. Still extremely easy to determine which jutsu is which and how big each jutsu is. No clash in this Manga has ever resulted in an extremely out of ordinary sized representation of the individual attacks. All these jutsu surpass Kakuzu's in size. Kakuzu's Katon doesn't get that large until after it explodes first of all, so Hiruzen's Katon would clash with it's initial form and blow through it, or it'd just rip through the explosion. Overall size is what matters here and Hiruzen's elements surpass Kakuzu's in overall size. Width isn't the only factor of size so why would one tech being wider automatically translate to said attack being able to match the other? That doesn't make sense.

"Easier to dodge"

That's a whole different story altogether. And no, it's obviously not a stream before it clashes. Where in the world are you getting this stuff from? These work just how any other elemental jutsu in this Manga has worked.

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That is how large 1 element is for example, except the length would be doubled.




The only thing to debate about this match up as a whole is how badly Hiruzen beats Kakuzu. Domu tanking everything but Raiton doesn't help him here because Hiruzen has Raiton, and it'd overpower any attack Kakuzu has except for Fuuton.

You see how large those tree's are

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here. Dry tree's are easily larger, and if you (taking into acount zoom) the jutsu just don't seem that large lol barely being larger than the buddha's head. Link how big that thing actually is if you could please.

Kakuzu's katon would clash with Hiruzens and (due to it also having probably stronger force since Hiruzen's seems to be no different than a fierball style)

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It would:
-Clash
-Explode
-Push Hiruzen's flames away

It would definitely overpower it, its wider and just as big with a force equal to an explosion.

What does length matter here? They're streams the length is relative to where the target of the jutsu is.

So what happens when Kakuzu keeps his fuuton heart with him at all times to nullify the raiton? Even though you never addressed his own Raiton being able to counter it lol.

 

[KidGamer65]

You see how large those tree's are

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here. Dry tree's are easily larger, and if you (taking into acount zoom) the jutsu just don't seem that large lol barely being larger than the buddha's head. Link how big that thing actually is if you could please.

Kakuzu's katon would clash with Hiruzens and (due to it also having probably stronger force since Hiruzen's seems to be no different than a fierball style)

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It would:
-Clash
-Explode
-Push Hiruzen's flames away

It would definitely overpower it, its wider and just as big with a force equal to an explosion.

What does length matter here? They're streams the length is relative to where the target of the jutsu is.

So what happens when Kakuzu keeps his fuuton heart with him at all times to nullify the raiton? Even though you never addressed his own Raiton being able to counter it lol.

1. No, you don't see anything. You see part of the trees. Second of all that doesn't matter. Obviously the trees at the Kakuzu and Hidan vs. Konoha battle site are wider, but they are nowhere near as wide as a Bijuu or any boss summon.

2. No, it wouldn't. You're making stuff up. In what universe does the flames being able to explode make them stronger than what Hiruzen has used on panel? How does the flame exploding from a smaller size to a larger size automatically translate to them pushing Hiruzen's flames way? It's wider, but no way in hell is it overall larger.

Bold makes no sense. Length of a jutsu is set. Has literally nothing to do with the target. Length contributes to overall size. Longer flame=More flame. A jutsu's size doesn't change based on where the target is.

Hiruzen has all 5 elements. If he wants to keep his Fuuton heart near him to nullify Raiton then Hiruzen can simply take it out with any other jutsu he has, preferably Katon.

I never addressed Gian being able to counter Raiton because you'd have to be delusional to argue that

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will overpower Hiruzen's Raiton. And please don't even try to argue that Gian=Raikiri in power.

 

[Zexion~]

1. No, you don't see anything. You see part of the trees. Second of all that doesn't matter. Obviously the trees at the Kakuzu and Hidan vs. Konoha battle site are wider, but they are nowhere near as wide as a Bijuu or any boss summon.

2. No, it wouldn't. You're making stuff up. In what universe does the flames being able to explode make them stronger than what Hiruzen has used on panel? How does the flame exploding from a smaller size to a larger size automatically translate to them pushing Hiruzen's flames way? It's wider, but no way in hell is it overall larger.

Bold makes no sense. Length of a jutsu is set. Has literally nothing to do with the target. Length contributes to overall size. Longer flame=More flame. A jutsu's size doesn't change based on where the target is.

Hiruzen has all 5 elements. If he wants to keep his Fuuton heart near him to nullify Raiton then Hiruzen can simply take it out with any other jutsu he has, preferably Katon.

I never addressed Gian being able to counter Raiton because you'd have to be delusional to argue that

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will overpower Hiruzen's Raiton. And please don't even try to argue that Gian=Raikiri in power.

What? Explosions have force while most Katons are just the spread of flame, if an explosion happened around flames obviously those flames would be pushed back, reasons why explosions don't leave flames in the center of the blast....are you trying to tell me that Hiruzen's flames are immune to force?

I see what you're saying about length.

What lol how did it not overpower raiton when:

-His raikiri were negated
-He was pushed back
-Not only his raikiri but his gloves were destroyed as well which means some raiton even got past the Raikiri lol.

How the hell are you going to tell me its not equal in power?

Hiruzen has all 5 jutsu but HE can only use one and it requires a hand-seal so while he's using one (it stays extended from the mouth or it extinguishes control as most jutsu) so he's just going to have a clone add fire style into the mix? Either way the raiton isn't surviving the cluster-**** of elements and whatever comes out is tanked by Domu.

 

[KidGamer65]

What? Explosions have force while most Katons are just the spread of flame, if an explosion happened around flames obviously those flames would be pushed back, reasons why explosions don't leave flames in the center of the blast....are you trying to tell me that Hiruzen's flames are immune to force?

I see what you're saying about length.

What lol how did it not overpower raiton when:

-His raikiri were negated
-He was pushed back
-Not only his raikiri but his gloves were destroyed as well which means some raiton even got past the Raikiri lol.

How the hell are you going to tell me its not equal in power?

Hiruzen has all 5 jutsu but HE can only use one and it requires a hand-seal so while he's using one (it stays extended from the mouth or it extinguishes control as most jutsu) so he's just going to have a clone add fire style into the mix? Either way the raiton isn't surviving the cluster-**** of elements and whatever comes out is tanked by Domu.

What are you talking about? All attacks have force behind them. The stronger the attack the more force it has. Kakuzu's Katon erupting from small to large doesn't automatically mean they are strong enough to overpower any other elemental jutsu or any other jutsu that doesn't explode. That is horrible horrible logic. The fact that it explodes adds to Kakuzu's Katon's power. Nothing else. Period.


Lmao. I know for a fact we've had this discussion about Raikiri in the past so I have no idea why you are bringing these same points that I know for a fact that I already countered. Kakashi didn't attack and his Raikiri were palmed. Raikiri and techniques like that are only powerful if the user thrusts. Did he thrust against Gian? No. So Gian's best feat is failing to break through a Raikiri that wasn't used in an offensive manner.

And no, it

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push him back. Don't make stuff up. Lmao now I'm sure that I've already addressed this. Don't say that the impact like marks are him being pushed back like you did last time we had this discussion. That's clearly from him landing.

What are you talking about? Hiruzen has Shadow Clones and a scan of him using all 5 elements via this method has literally been posted in this thread so I have no idea why you are trying to argue he can only use one at a time. Not even sure why you are talking about some cluster of elements. No reason why that has to be the only way this goes down unless Kakuzu is going to group himself and all his masks in the same area, and even if that's how Kakuzu would want to play it, Hiruzen doesn't need to fire all his jutsu from the same direction so we can forget about any kind of cluster ****.

Not to mention if there was ever a clash of that sort obviously Kakuzu would lose and have his masks that attacked get obliterated and claiming otherwise is crazy talk. Hiruzen can use all 5 elements. Kakuzu can only use 3 offensively. Hiruzen's are stronger than Kakuzu's. Hiruzen can easily take advantage of elemental advantage because of those facts.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Both KG65 and Zexion are using horrible reasoning and logic to rebuttal/debunk each other. Its only going to end til someone gets tired of responding

 

[KidGamer65]

Both KG65 and Zexion are using horrible reasoning and logic to rebuttal/debunk each other. Its only going to end til someone gets tired of responding

Then you should jump in and bring the usage of shit logic over the top like you usually do.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Then you should jump in and bring the usage of shit logic over the top like you usually do.

With you:

And lmao it's obvious to anyone with working eyes that those jutsu are far larger than Kakuzu's jutsu. The only one you can even debate being on par is Atsugai, and even that is not as large.

1. Here you are nitpicking on the scale of Kakuzu's ninjutsu. You specifically singled out Atsugai being the only thing debate despite the fact that Kakuzu's wide scale ninjutsu were meant to be on par (

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), with each other.

2. DB4 states Kakuzu's forte is facing multiple opponent's due to his move sets[can't link NF]. Which is the very same implication for Madara own Katon[

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].

The scaling comparison is flawed and your reason behind Kakuzu element is too.

Not only that if you want to throw away logic, you mind as well say that these fodders(not literally just making a portrayal statement) character element are superior to Kakuzu to if they were to clash with his because a single stream they out put is also superior then his based on scaling[

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] (along with Hiruzen).

Adding the fact that you making baseless claims of Hiruzen elements overpowering Kakuzu's, which at least his was specifically stated to a be a high level technique.

 

[KidGamer65]

With you:



1. Here you are nitpicking on the scale of Kakuzu's ninjutsu. You specifically singled out Atsugai being the only thing debate despite the fact that Kakuzu's wide scale ninjutsu were meant to be on par (

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), with each other.

2. DB4 states Kakuzu's forte is facing multiple opponent's due to his move sets[can't link NF]. Which is the very same implication for Madara own Katon[

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].

The scaling comparison is flawed and your reason behind Kakuzu element is too.

Not only that if you want to throw away logic, you mind as well say that these fodders(not literally just making a portrayal statement) character element are superior to Kakuzu to if they were to clash his his because a single stream they out put is also superior then his based on scaling[

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] (along with Hiruzen).

Adding the fact that you making baseless claims of Hiruzen elements overpowering Kakuzu's, which at least his was specifically stated to a be a high level technique.

1. What? Katon is not as large as Atsugai. [

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] Those are the same trees. Please don't make anyone here have to go in depth on something you can clearly see on the panel.

"...despite the fact that Kakuzu's wide scale Ninjutsu were meant to be on par"

Where in this franchise was it stated that Kakuzu's wide scaled jutsu were meant to be the same size? Lmao. Nowhere. You are making stuff up. You didn't create this Manga nor was anything of the sort stated so I have no idea how you know what they were and were not meant to be.

2. An irrelevant point to bring up as it literally changes nothing that has been said here. Kakuzu can fight multiple opponents because he can form 3 other entities to fight with him. Don't try to make this deeper than it is and don't try to use vague statements to argue when we have the capability of measuring the power of their techniques by looking at them.

No, a single stream of their Katon is not anywhere close to Hiruzen or Kakuzu's elemental Ninjutsu in terms of length or width. You'd have to be blatantly ignoring everything in that scan, the Hiruzen scan and not be using any type of logic to come to this conclusion. Please don't start with the bad comparisons. I don't care what was stated about his jutsu. His jutsu being stated to be high level techniques doesn't make them stronger than techniques that aren't outright stated to be high level. You have eyes and you can see which technique is larger, so use them instead of relying on statements that don't have any weight in a comparative sense.

Man it's ironic you were talking about us using bad logic only to follow up with this.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

1. What? Katon is not as large as Atsugai. [

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] Those are the same trees. Please don't make anyone here have to go in depth on something you can clearly see on the panel.

What we clearly see on panel is Atugai not reaching any further in width then Katon (which cover 3-4 spaced out trees). And manga only showing half of the scale in length. While we see Katon going further length on paper. Somehow this is difficult to see?

Where in this franchise was it stated that Kakuzu's wide scaled jutsu were meant to be the same size? Lmao. Nowhere. You are making stuff up. You didn't create this Manga nor was anything of the sort stated so I have no idea how you know what they were and were not meant to be.

I didnt made any claims being a fact the manga stated. I only made the statement to which I see, viewing the manga. On paper they dont look bigger then each other. On paper, when combine, didnt change the size of their scaling. Therefore I came to the conclusion. Dont start skewing my point.

2. An irrelevant point to bring up as it literally changes nothing that has been said here. Kakuzu can fight multiple opponents because he can form 3 other entities to fight with him. Don't try to make this deeper than it is and don't try to use vague statements to argue when we have the capability of measuring the power of their techniques by looking at them.

Then I apologize for paraphrasing. But this is what was clearly stated:

"⬆ Using multiple "nature transformations", Kakuzu's forte is fighting against a large number of people." The statement is made specially Kakuzu's elements.

@Bold which means nothing as we disagreeing, thus just by looking at each of them because an opinionated discussion then an actual fact.

No, a single stream of their Katon is not anywhere close to Hiruzen or Kakuzu's elemental Ninjutsu in terms of length or width. You'd have to be blatantly ignoring everything in that scan, the Hiruzen scan and not be using any type of logic to come to this conclusion. Please don't start with the bad comparisons. I don't care what was stated about his jutsu. His jutsu being stated to be high level techniques doesn't make them stronger than techniques that aren't outright stated to be high level. You have eyes and you can see which technique is larger, so use them instead of relying on statements that don't have any weight in a comparative sense.

Then you must be blind because clearly 1 Katon was able to cover the face of Juubi (and if you know his size compare to a Buijuu, then you would get it). Which ironically you are blandly ignoring. I am hoping you do a double check because I don feel like wasting time pointing and drawing circles for you to see. For one, The Earth justu had to be deep enough to sink in the size of Juubi. Then the stream of their jutsu had to reach the very distance.

Yet you arguing that Hiruzen's element is bigger when comparing it to a Buijuu size structure?

I never ever argued that Kakuzu's elements were stronger then Hiruzen dont put words in my mouth. I am literally arguing why your own reasoning on why Hiruzen is superior then Kakuzu is wrong.

 

[KidGamer65]

What we clearly see on panel is Atugai not reaching any further in width then Katon (which cover 3-4 spaced out trees). And manga only showing half of the scale in length. While we see Katon going further length on paper. Somehow this is difficult to see?

:lol I suggest you wipe that crust out of your eyes and look at these panels again. That scan blatantly shows that the area of Atsugai can fit a lot more than just 3 trees. Is it really this hard to read a scan? Hell, you aren't even reading. These are just pictures. Come on now.

I didnt made any claims being a fact the manga stated. I only made the statement to which I see, viewing the manga. On paper they dont look bigger then each other. On paper, when combine, didnt change the size of their scaling. Therefore I came to the conclusion. Dont start skewing my point.

Atsugai being the only thing debate despite the fact that Kakuzu's wide scale ninjutsu were meant to be on par

Please shut up. No one is skewing your point. As usual this is just you not owning up to what you've actually stated.

Then I apologize for paraphrasing. But this is what was clearly stated:

"⬆ Using multiple "nature transformations", Kakuzu's forte is fighting against a large number of people." The statement is made specially Kakuzu's elements.

And how does he use multiple nature transformations?

Oh wait. :lol Exactly how I said, by splitting his fighting force from 1 to multiple entities who can use multiple elements.

@Bold which means nothing as we disagreeing, thus just by looking at each of them because an opinionated discussion then an actual fact.

No, because to figure out their size you need to compare them to the surroundings and that's where we are disagreeing because you don't know how to accurately read size and your past arguments on topics such as these prove that.

Then you must be blind because clearly 1 Katon was able to cover the face of Juubi (and if you know his size compare to a Buijuu, then you would get it). Which ironically you are blandly ignoring. I am hoping you do a double check because I don feel like wasting time pointing and drawing circles for you to see. For one, The Earth justu had to be deep enough to sink in the size of Juubi. Then the stream of their jutsu had to reach the very distance.

The only person who is blind here is you.

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That is the first form of the Juubi accurately compared to a Bijuu. His face alone is not as large as any Bijuu. The Juubi's height isn't anything impressive so their stream crossing that distance isn't superior to Hiruzen's elements being capable of crossing the distance between SZ's Shinsuusenju, beyond the size of an ordinary Bijuu, and his own position.

Then we can simply compare the Sarutobi clan members to their jutsu and compare Hiruzen to his own jutsu. Only an idiot would sit here and tell me that the individual jutsu from the clan members is larger than what Hiruzen did against SZ. Let me guess, this was probably your line of thought:

-Juubi's head=Bijuu in size.
-Sarutobi clan members Katon=Juubi's head=Bijuu in size.
-Hiruzen's jutsu=Bijuu sized SS's head in size=Bijuu's head in size.

:lol Even though the clan members compared to their jutsu are larger than Hiruzen is compared to his own jutsu, or at the very very least if you lowball it, EQUAL. If your argument made any sense then the fodder's jutsu would be 3-4x larger than Hiruzen's own jutsu. Maybe you should've thought about how dumb this sounded before typing it and hitting post.

And please don't draw anything because it won't help. Illustrating your terrible logic doesn't make it any less terrible.

I never ever argued that Kakuzu's elements were stronger then Hiruzen dont put words in my mouth. I am literally arguing why your own reasoning on why Hiruzen is superior then Kakuzu is wrong.

Lmao can you stop? That addresses the logic you were using to try and measure the power of the techniques. Use feats and not dumbass logic like "one was actually stated to be a high level while the other one wasn't". Whether or not you actually believe that is besides the point.

Quit using shit logic. This is another one of your shticks that is getting pretty damn old.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

:lol I suggest you wipe that crust out of your eyes and look at these panels again. That scan blatantly shows that the area of Atsugai can fit a lot more than just 3 trees. Is it really this hard to read a scan? Hell, you aren't even reading. These are just pictures. Come on now.

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This is strictly entertainment.

Please shut up. No one is skewing your point. As usual this is just you not owning up to what you've actually stated.

Alright, wrong choice of a word to make my point.

And how does he use multiple nature transformations?

Oh wait. :lol Exactly how I said, by splitting his fighting force from 1 to multiple entities who can use multiple elements

The point of that comment is to explain that Kakuzu uses jutsu to cover wide range and on paper that can face large number of people (same as Madara's Katon), these element jutsu has shown to be around the same play-field as any other character that can do the same with their prefer element. Nitpicking on opinionated scaling results no where

No, because to figure out their size you need to compare them to the surroundings and that's where we are disagreeing because you don't know how to accurately read size and your past arguments on topics such as these prove that.

What I am arguing about is the fact that you will never see eye to eye in scaling. Because you think Im down playing the surroundings and etc while I think vise versa. Manga has shown to be inconsistent time and time in scaling and yet want to argue your right about reading them. So I'm arguing based on the best implication the manga demonstrates via wide-field jutsus.

The only person who is blind here is you.

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That is the first form of the Juubi accurately compared to a Bijuu. His face alone is not as large as any Bijuu. The Juubi's height isn't anything impressive.

Sample 1#. Here you see the first form.
And here you see the first form an another size[

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>

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]

Im still blind?

so their stream crossing that distance isn't superior to Hiruzen's elements being capable of crossing the distance between SZ's Shinsuusenju, beyond the size of an ordinary Bijuu, and his own position.

@Bold:

Sample 2: Implying the size beyond Buijuu's where I see that no where. They seem pretty even to me when they both can be scale compare to the root of God Tree

[

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]
[

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]​

Im still blind?

Then we can simply compare the Sarutobi clan members to their jutsu and compare Hiruzen to his own jutsu. Only an idiot would sit here and tell me that the individual jutsu from the clan members is larger than what Hiruzen did against SZ. Let me guess, this was probably your line of thought:

-Juubi's head=Bijuu in size.
-Sarutobi clan members Katon=Juubi's head=Bijuu in size.
-Hiruzen's jutsu=Bijuu sized SS's head in size=Bijuu's head in size.

Got got half of it right, with my line of thought. The last half you didnt get right was the intention I was making. As I stated "If I we were to throw away logic..." So yes the point I was making was that was suppose to be, indeed idiotic, but to make my point and how your arguments and logic goes no where.

:lol Even though the clan members compared to their jutsu are larger than Hiruzen is compared to his own jutsu, or at the very very least if you lowball it, EQUAL. If your argument made any sense then the fodder's jutsu would be 3-4x larger than Hiruzen's own jutsu. Maybe you should've thought about how dumb this sounded before typing it and hitting post.

You were picky of my choice of words earlier, and yet this missed this clear and obvious point I was making. I say we call it even.

The whole point was the scaling makes no sense but its there clear and cut. Doesnt mean I believe the fodder is superior then Kakuzu (since you would somehow argue its even to Hiruzen). And no reason for me to interpret Hiruzen and Kakuzu arent on the same level field and wide range element jutsu via their nature specialty.

If you are then you mind as well say Hiruzen>=<Saurobi clan>Kakuzu in "the scaling argument". If you do then theres nothing left to discuss.

 

[KidGamer65]

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This is strictly entertainment.

What are you even saying here? :lol

The point of that comment is to explain that Kakuzu uses jutsu to cover wide range and on paper that can face large number of people (same as Madara's Katon), these element jutsu has shown to be around the same play-field as any other character that can do the same with their prefer element. Nitpicking on opinionated scaling results no where

No, it's not. That's an interpretation one can have from seeing how Kakuzu fights on panel but in no way, shape or form does that statement on it's own talk about the range and size of Kakuzu's elements. Like I said, stop using statements you can't properly interpret to support your points and start using what is actually shown.

Do you even know what you are arguing here? Because I barely know what you are trying to argue here when we get down to specifics. Are you saying that Madara's Katon=Kakuzu's elements because they can both hit multiple enemies? Lmao. Stop it. Stop it right now.

What I am arguing about is the fact that you will never see eye to eye in scaling. Because you think Im down playing the surroundings and etc while I think vise versa. Manga has shown to be inconsistent time and time in scaling and yet want to argue your right about reading them. So I'm arguing based on the best implication the manga demonstrates via wide-field jutsus.

Yes, like I just said. We'll never see eye to eye because you cannot scale. That simple. Thus you are using even worse logic, which is exactly what everything above is.

Sample 1#. Here you see the first form.
And here you see the first form an another size[

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Im still blind?

Yes, you are blind as I've addressed this below. Stop using shitty inconsistencies to try and support your point.

@Bold:

Sample 2: Implying the size beyond Buijuu's where I see that no where. They seem pretty even to me when they both can be scale compare to the root of God Tree

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Im still blind?

The only point I'll give you.

Got got half of it right, with my line of thought. The last half you didnt get right was the intention I was making. As I stated "If I we were to throw away logic..." So yes the point I was making was that was suppose to be, indeed idiotic, but to make my point and how your arguments and logic goes no where.

No. Just stop. Your logic is bad regardless because nothing in that scan if you actually know how to properly scale the size of objects in this Manga you'd know that their individual Katon are not larger than Atsugai or Zukkoku. The only reason your attempt at trying to show me why my logic doesn't work had any weight is because of the Juubi's comparison to BM Naruto and BM B.

You were picky of my choice of words earlier, and yet this missed this clear and obvious point I was making. I say we call it even.

The whole point was the scaling makes no sense but its there clear and cut. Doesnt mean I believe the fodder is superior then Kakuzu (since you would somehow argue its even to Hiruzen). And no reason for me to interpret Hiruzen and Kakuzu arent on the same level field and wide range element jutsu via their nature specialty.

If you are then you mind as well say Hiruzen>=<Saurobi clan>Kakuzu in "the scaling argument". If you do then theres nothing left to discuss.

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The scaling makes perfect sense if you use your brain and figure out what the inconsistency is. The Juubi's head being as large as a Bijuu makes no sense due to this comparison, thus it's excluded and you come to the conclusion that the clan member's jutsu are NOT as large as Kakuzu or Hiruzen's elements. OR better yet you can exclude the Juubi altogether and simply compare the clan members to their jutsu and compare Hiruzen to his jutsu and come to the conclusion that Hiruzen's jutsu and Kakuzu's jutsu are>>clan members.

As for the bold, it's garbage logic at it's finest. So now Hiruzen=Kakuzu in elemental jutsu because both their jutsu are meant to be wide scaled jutsu that can strike multiple targets? :lol Do I have to go in depth on how ridiculous that sounds? There are multiple techniques that are meant to hit multiple enemies at once, does that make them all on par? No. So stop using this shit logic.


EjBlack. Stop. Please. :lol