Edo Fu and Edo Utakata vs Sasori and Itachi

[Curse Mark]

Why would they do that with full intel?

Ay still looked into Madara's eyes despite knowing of genjutsu. They have no way to fight without looking at him.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Ay still looked into Madara's eyes despite knowing of genjutsu. They have no way to fight without looking at him.

That's a weak rebuttal. What's the difference Ay and every other Gokage that was able to?

 

[Lord Tywin]

That's a weak rebuttal. What's the difference Ay and every other Gokage that was able to?

Ay was caught Physically

 

[Brother Numpsay]

.

Savage answered it for you. Meaning it was brute force that caught Ay. Everyone else knows how to avoid direct eye contact. They're are no different.

Rinpungakure no Jutsu
Bubbles ninjutsu craps on this on top of that

 

[Curse Mark]

Deidara knew of Sasuke's genjutsu- still got caught.

Along with Danzo, Bee (when fighting itachi), Kakashi (fighting itachi), Naruto, etc.

None of them had a way to fight without making eye contact and fell victim. the set up is IC, and they don't have a way to avoid eye contact.

 

[Tantalus Thief]

Akatuski win S1 but lose S2

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Deidara knew of Sasuke's genjutsu- still got caught.

Because he was confident against it, as he trained his left eye for it?

Along with Danzo, Bee (when fighting itachi), Kakashi (fighting itachi), Naruto, etc.

Danzo though getting caught was irrelevant as he doesnt think his skill with it is good enough Manga states he did it out of arrogance. Bee thought it was irrelevant for Sasuke to catch him via a partner. Kakashi thought he can counter it (2nd scenario he forced it via Clone). Naruto got hit by finger genjutsu. None of these examples validates that getting caught is absolute.

None of them had a way to fight without making eye contact and fell victim. the set up is IC, and they don't have a way to avoid eye contact.

Nothing supports this.
1. They avoid eye to eye contact same way Gokage and most fodder Shinobi's did against Madara
2. Share vision makes this genjutsu loses its meaning. Since one can always leave Itachi's line of sight and attack from the blind.
3. Their jutsu always keeps Itachi's eye busy or nullify it with blindness:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[Curse Mark]

Because he was confident against it, as he trained his left eye for it?



Danzo though getting caught was irrelevant as he doesnt think his skill with it is good enough Manga states he did it out of arrogance. Bee thought it was irrelevant for Sasuke to catch him via a partner. Kakashi thought he can counter it (2nd scenario he forced it via Clone). Naruto got hit by finger genjutsu. None of these examples validates that getting caught is absolute.




Nothing supports this.
1. They avoid eye to eye contact same way Gokage and most fodder Shinobi's did against Madara
2. Share vision makes this genjutsu loses its meaning. Since one can always leave Itachi's line of sight and attack from the blind.
3. Their jutsu always keeps Itachi's eye busy or nullify it with blindness:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

I don't really see how that's an argument for them not making eye contact. Yeah they could break line of sight but before that they would have to look at him to attack. Either way, itachi with exploding clones, crows, crow genjutsu, finger gen, V4 and Sasori with his poison, puppets, and IS should take this even without tsyukiomi. I'm not super big on itachi so im not really the best at arguing with him but I really dont see team 2 losing.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I don't really see how that's an argument for them not making eye contact. Yeah they could break line of sight but before that they would have to look at him to attack.

Then Ill leave it to people who actually can argue for them, cause your not making sense here. No they do not need to look at his eyes to attack. That has been shown many times against Uchiha's, in fact the only way to fight one.

Either way, itachi with exploding clones, crows, crow genjutsu, finger gen, V4 and Sasori with his poison, puppets, and IS should take this even without tsyukiomi. I'm not super big on itachi so im not really the best at arguing with him but I really dont see team 2 losing.

Thats the whole point of this vs thread. To debate how their feats will lead to victory. In summery all these jutsu can be countered:

Clones are countered with flight avoidance (Fu) and bubble land-mines defence surrounding Utakata. Any other genjutsu bar Tsu gets seen through by their own 3T Sharingan and breaks it. CT deals with Susanoo. Water acid and ST deals with Sasori.

 

[Curse Mark]

Why you seem to be taking this thread so seriously? Said from the very beginning threads like this are way too complicated. Was just trying to offer my $.02

Don't say the people who can actually argue for them like I wouldn't be able to if i put more effort into this.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Why you seem to be taking this thread so seriously? Said from the very beginning threads like this are way too complicated. Was just trying to offer my $.02

Don't say the people who can actually argue for them like I wouldn't be able to if i put more effort into this.

I didnt want to rub off that way. I came off that way base on the rebuttal said against Tsu. Your ignoring all reasoning on counters I presented against it.

 

[Unorthodox]

Lol this is all fan-fic. Sasuke ONLY broke out of the Tsukiyomi when he activated CM, which is a powerful Senjutsu boost. These guys have no such boost, so they aren't breaking out, ever. And it's actually funny you completely ignore the other 3T user, Kakashi, who got completely shat on by Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi wins this.

Sasuke never activated CM at all and everything that happened there never happened he had lost an eye and tore through his shirt yet when he came to none of that was present now gtfoh with the dumbshit.

OT - Jinz shit both have counters to amaterasu and susanoo Deva & Preta Sasori is a nonfactor the stay in there v2 forms in proceeds to shit on the latter.

 

[Apêx1]

Danzo though getting caught was irrelevant as he doesnt think his skill with it is good enough Manga states he did it out of arrogance. Bee thought it was irrelevant for Sasuke to catch him via a partner. Kakashi thought he can counter it (2nd scenario he forced it via Clone). Naruto got hit by finger genjutsu. None of these examples validates that getting caught is absolute.

Terrible argument trying to counter Genjutsu. Dkdankong made the assertion that eye contact is imminent, and he's right. Everyone somehow thinks that avoiding eye contact for an entire fight is a possibility, but it really isn't. He can avoid eye contact for some time, but any distractions can and will make them forget about the eye contact factor momentarily, which is all that is needed for Itachi to one shot.

Regarding your points; Danzo getting caught is irrelevant? Horrendous argument. He knows about the Sharingan and got caught. That's ALL there is to it. He got caught twice, that has nothing to do with arrogance, it has everything to do with the inability of an opponent to avoid eye contact for an entire fight irregardless of circumstances. Regarding Bee, that's a terrible argument as well. Bee doesn't neglect the significance of Genjutsu, especially since a subtle Genjutsu like the one used against Danzo wouldn't be broken out of by Hachibi. The Hachibi doesn't feel Bee's chakra, you have no proof of that. All he sees/knows is what Bee sees/knows, so if he doesn't see/know there's a Genjutsu he won't try to break out of it. Thus avoiding eye contact would be a goal for him, one which he cannot uphold. Naruto got hit by Genjutsu 3 times, in each occasion it was because he thought avoiding eye contact was a counter to Genjutsu. But I'd like to note, since most people don't realise this; Ephemeral is commonly referred to as 'finger genjutsu' but it isn't finger genjutsu, it's genjutsu which can be initiated from any part of the body

You must be registered for see links

. Clearly implied by him saying I "just need one finger" for this.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Terrible argument trying to counter Genjutsu. Dkdankong made the assertion that eye contact is imminent, and he's right.

The hell are you reading then? Because thats not what he asserted at all. This is what he said:

They make eye contact and lose right off the bat.

They have no way to fight without looking at him.

Everyone somehow thinks that avoiding eye contact for an entire fight is a possibility, but it really isn't. He can avoid eye contact for some time, but any distractions can and will make them forget about the eye contact factor momentarily, which is all that is needed for Itachi to one shot.

Right then its for you or others to argue how he will succeed, base on my counters to avoid Tsu. Which I made a list of options #Post 27.
VVVVV

Spoiler

1. They avoid eye to eye contact same way Gokage and most fodder Shinobi's did against Madara (again Apex I said that base on his assertion, not because "it's bound to happen", which he didn't assert at all)
2. Share vision makes this genjutsu loses its meaning. Since one can always leave Itachi's line of sight and attack from the blind.
3. Their jutsu always keeps Itachi's eye busy or nullify it with blindness:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Regarding your points; Danzo getting caught is irrelevant? Horrendous argument. He knows about the Sharingan and got caught. That's ALL there is to it. He got caught twice, that has nothing to do with arrogance, it has everything to do with the inability of an opponent to avoid eye contact for an entire fight irregardless of circumstances. Regarding Bee, that's a terrible argument as well. Bee doesn't neglect the significance of Genjutsu, especially since a subtle Genjutsu like the one used against Danzo wouldn't be broken out of by Hachibi. The Hachibi doesn't feel Bee's chakra, you have no proof of that. All he sees/knows is what Bee sees/knows, so if he doesn't see/know there's a Genjutsu he won't try to break out of it. Thus avoiding eye contact would be a goal for him, one which he cannot uphold. Naruto got hit by Genjutsu 3 times, in each occasion it was because he thought avoiding eye contact was a counter to Genjutsu. But I'd like to note, since most people don't realise this; Ephemeral is commonly referred to as 'finger genjutsu' but it isn't finger genjutsu, it's genjutsu which can be initiated from any part of the body

You must be registered for see links

. Clearly implied by him saying I "just need one finger" for this.

Honestly not going to waste my time with this part of the quote.

 

[Curse Mark]

The hell are you reading then? Because thats not what he asserted at all. This is what he said:









Right then its for you or others to argue how he will succeed, base on my counters to avoid Tsu. Which I made a list of options #Post 27.
VVVVV







Honestly not going to waste my time with this part of the quote.

I didn't do a great job of arguing what i was saying but you disregarding the last section of his post is essentially giving up.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I didn't do a great job of arguing what i was saying but you disregarding the last section of his post is essentially giving up.

Im not giving up, since I outright post counters to Tsu. I wasnt going to waste my time arguing why he and I think Genjutsu encounter interpretation is right. Since it ends up being irrelevant.

 

[Apêx1]

The hell are you reading then? Because thats not what he asserted at all. This is what he said:

Lol what? Imminent=going to happen. Dkdankong said=Genjutsu is going to happen. Not sure what you are even trying to argue here, I was simply stating a fact.

Right then its for you or others to argue how he will succeed, base on my counters to avoid Tsu. Which I made a list of options #Post 27.
VVVVV

Ah, didn't notice that. My bad. And I beg people to stop using Madara as an example that Genjutsu is ineffective. Madara is arrogant and does not care or rely on Genjutsu. He used and attempted it once in his fight with the Gokage. Btw, Madara also seems to have caught Hashirama in a Genjutsu, here, yes he caught the GOD of Shinobi while distracted. DISTRACTED. [

You must be registered for see links

]

Every opponent Sasuke has fought has been caught in Genjutsu iirc, except Raikage, but in that fight he still caught Cee while DISTRACTED, ie no longer thinking about the Dojutsu. Caught Danzo twice, caught Bee, caught Deidara; but he countered with constriction of eye. IF he could avoid eye contact he wouldn't have needed to learn how to train his eye, FACT. He has clones and flight, yet still felt the need to train his eye in order to counter the Sharingan, so the task is nowhere NEAR as simply as you imply. Same with Itachi, in every fight in which he intended to use Genjutsu, he did. Only exception is Kakashi, and that was 30% Itachi who is 30% power in everything by manga statement. So no, there's not a single chance in hell that Fu and Utakata can counter Genjutsu by doing what the people did vs Madara, because they didn't do shit, it was Madara who decided not to rely on Genjutsu or make it a focal point.

Second of all, Shared Vision is not a counter to Genjutsu. Itachi manipulates their brain, not their eyes. The image from shared vision comes from the brain, it's not like he's using the brain of his fellow shared vision user. If Itachi manipulates his brain then he's affected either way, and Itachi can choose whether the guy gets to maintain his shared vision, whether to make it a single image, or whether to kill him off with his Tsukiyomi. Don't even try to deny this, having shared vision means nothing against Genjutsu because Genjutsu does not manipulate your eyes (which is a tool for perception that is translated in your brain to get the image you see), Genjutsu manipulates the brain itself and thus can dictate all of your perception. Only because you hear what someone else hears doesn't mean that this will be the case when Itachi is manipulating what you hear. Same case.

And yes, the powder can probably act as a temporary blinding sight, but please refer to the word I used, TEMPORARY. Itachi can find ways around it, or use Katon to burn the powder.

Honestly not going to waste my time with this part of the quote.

Ok.

 

[Curse Mark]

Bruh that part of the quote details he can use genjutsu with any part of his body, not just his finger.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Lol what? Imminent=going to happen. Dkdankong said=Genjutsu is going to happen. Not sure what you are even trying to argue here, I was simply stating a fact.

Then your obviously didnt read the fat words that I quoted. "They make eye contact and lose right off the bat" = Implying base on their knowledge, they lose the fight in the beginning. My counter was intel given.

"They have no way to fight without looking at him" = Implying direct eye contact will always be made, "therefore Tsu succeeds". Which I post counters and why it isn't always true and methods to prevent it.

The conversation between me and dk never implied the assertion that direct eye contact is Imminent via bound to happen.

Ah, didn't notice that. My bad. And I beg people to stop using Madara as an example that Genjutsu is ineffective. Madara is arrogant and does not care or rely on Genjutsu. He used and attempted it once in his fight with the Gokage. Btw, Madara also seems to have caught Hashirama in a Genjutsu, here, yes he caught the GOD of Shinobi while distracted. DISTRACTED. [

You must be registered for see links

]

Not a good reason. He attempt it once because he had an opening of using it only once (as he had to literally hold down Raikage). If he has chances, then its a fact he will use it[

You must be registered for see links

]. Ok you post a scan of Madara activating EMS is somehow proof Hashirama got caught with no proof that he was under it? Whatever your next point is, Im not interested in it, since its the same rebuttal of "Genjutsu encounter" which I find a waste of time to debate and irrelevant.

Every opponent Sasuke has fought has been caught in Genjutsu iirc, except Raikage, but in that fight he still caught Cee while DISTRACTED, ie no longer thinking about the Dojutsu. Caught Danzo twice, caught Bee, caught Deidara; but he countered with constriction of eye. IF he could avoid eye contact he wouldn't have needed to learn how to train his eye, FACT. He has clones and flight, yet still felt the need to train his eye in order to counter the Sharingan, so the task is nowhere NEAR as simply as you imply. Same with Itachi, in every fight in which he intended to use Genjutsu, he did. Only exception is Kakashi, and that was 30% Itachi who is 30% power in everything by manga statement. So no, there's not a single chance in hell that Fu and Utakata can counter Genjutsu by doing what the people did vs Madara, because they didn't do shit, it was Madara who decided not to rely on Genjutsu or make it a focal point.

Same as above, not wasting time arguing against genjutsu encounter. I made counters to it already. Edo's Sharingan counters and defeats every genjutsu bar Tsu. So argue how Itachi can catch them distracted from here on.

Second of all, Shared Vision is not a counter to Genjutsu. Itachi manipulates their brain, not their eyes. The image from shared vision comes from the brain, it's not like he's using the brain of his fellow shared vision user. If Itachi manipulates his brain then he's affected either way, and Itachi can choose whether the guy gets to maintain his shared vision, whether to make it a single image, or whether to kill him off with his Tsukiyomi. Don't even try to deny this, having shared vision means nothing against Genjutsu because Genjutsu does not manipulate your eyes (which is a tool for perception that is translated in your brain to get the image you see), Genjutsu manipulates the brain itself and thus can dictate all of your perception. Only because you hear what someone else hears doesn't mean that this will be the case when Itachi is manipulating what you hear. Same case.

You completely misinterpret my counter. I stated the reason Share vision counters because: "Since one can always leave Itachi's line of sight and attack from the blind." So direct eye contact is not needed base on my "", as one can just follow the other Share vision, thats not looking at Itachi's eyes

And yes, the powder can probably act as a temporary blinding sight, but please refer to the word I used, TEMPORARY. Itachi can find ways around it, or use Katon to burn the powder

The anime enabled her to produce massive amounts of it, which she can leave around them. Simply sprinkle everywhere she is fly around. He can't burn every direction, especially with a Suiton user helping her out She can use it more then once, and temporary of time is what she needs anyway. Reference:

You must be registered for see links

Bruh that part of the quote details he can use genjutsu with any part of his body, not just his finger.

Not relevant. 3T break any genjutsu he has bar Tsu

 

[Apêx1]

Then your obviously didnt read the fat words that I quoted. "They make eye contact and lose right off the bat" = Implying base on their knowledge, they lose the fight in the beginning. My counter was intel given.

"They have no way to fight without looking at him" = Implying direct eye contact will always be made, "therefore Tsu succeeds". Which I post counters and why it isn't always true and methods to prevent it.

The conversation between me and dk never implied the assertion that direct eye contact is Imminent via bound to happen.

Ok.

Not a good reason. He attempt it once because he had an opening of using it only once (as he had to literally hold down Raikage). If he has chances, then its a fact he will use it[

You must be registered for see links

]. Ok you post a scan of Madara activating EMS is somehow proof Hashirama got caught with no proof that he was under it? Whatever your next point is, Im not interested in it, since its the same rebuttal of "Genjutsu encounter" which I find a waste of time to debate and irrelevant.

Bold is a baseless claim from ignorance.
Underlined is completely irrelevant unless you're willing to argue that Madara can't Genjutsu all the fodders even if he tried.
Red is you grasping at straws, the empasis on his eye contact with Hashirama is extremely obvious. Unless you think Hashirama was looking at the floor expecting this, there's nothing to argue here. And then there's the fact that it would be irrelevant for Kishi to have put that in and then emphasised on his eye.

Same as above, not wasting time arguing against genjutsu encounter. I made counters to it already. Edo's Sharingan counters and defeats every genjutsu bar Tsu. So argue how Itachi can catch them distracted from here on.

Ok, Itachi catches them in Genjutsu with a Crow Bunshin feint, which will leave them distracted due to the scattered crows around them, just like it left Sasuke and SM Kabuto distracted. Having intel won't change the element of surprise. And since you're being so unreasonable, how about you give me scans which suggest Fu and Utakate can fight without making eye contact? Last I checked even Kakashi could not do that, so you'll need to substantiate all these baseless claims. The only reason I keep bringin up these Genjutsu encounters is because you have no argument suggesting they can avoid eye contact, given the large amount of proof I have given you regarding people being incapable of doing the very thing you are trying to propose.

You completely misinterpret my counter. I stated the reason Share vision counters because: "Since one can always leave Itachi's line of sight and attack from the blind." So direct eye contact is not needed base on my "", as one can just follow the other Share vision, thats not looking at Itachi's ey

es

So Sasori is basically not even in this fight? By this argument Itachi doesn't win through Genjutsu since the other team is busy dying from Sasori's poison given they haven't even looked at him yet. You can't avoid the needles if you're not looking at Sasori.

The anime enabled her to produce massive amounts of it, which she can leave around them. Simply sprinkle everywhere she is fly around. He can't burn every direction, especially with a Suiton user helping her out She can use it more then once, and temporary of time is what she needs anyway. Reference:

You must be registered for see links

All I need to make this argument moot is the bold. Also, Suiton feats?

Not relevant. 3T break any genjutsu he has bar Tsu

Is that why Kakashi's Kage Bunshin couldn't break 30% Itachi's 3T Genjutsu? It's not like they're immune to it, they can simply see through it more easily. Doesn't change the fact that there's a period in which they are inactive, just like Orochimaru was, and that's the period in which they die.

Bruh that part of the quote details he can use genjutsu with any part of his body, not just his finger.

Rofl, this guy keeps ignoring vital parts of my argument that prove they can't fight without looking at Itachi. His counters are only somewhat viable in a 2v1, he's acting like Sasori ain't even here.