Edo BM Minato vs Edo Itachi

[KidGamer65]

In bold. Minato has not proved he can distinguish between two chakra signatures. He could selectively teleport whomever he wanted, but he was capable of telling the difference in their chakra signatures to identify who the person is. However, Susano is a manifestation of the users chakra, so they both contain the exact same chakra signature. Saying he can discriminate between two chakra signatures and chose which to teleport is the same as saying he can teleport Itachi somewhere and leave his entire chakra network behind (since he can tell the difference).

Chakra signature has nothing to do with the mechanics of Hiraishin at all. Susanoo is an object that Minato can use to establish a connection with Itachi thus he can teleport Itachi away without his Susanoo, its the same exact principle as when he teleported Kurama through Gamabunta, not seeing where this "distinguishing between chakra signatures" came from. Your chakra network example doesn't hold because:

1. Its been shown Susanoo can be separated from the user, clearly the chakra network can't.

2. Chakra network is internal, Susanoo is external.

Minato needs to touch the objects he teleports away, this is the way his Chakra touches the object. Reason Minato came behind Tobirama and Hiruzen, to teleport them to the respective Kunai by touching them [1].

He stated that he can warp something that him or his chakra is touching, if this were true then there would be no point of making a distinction between him touching it and his chakra touching it. He touched them because his chakra wasn't already touching them.

Therefore I assume, that Minato used the same s/t barrier, to teleport Kyuubi away without touching, which he used to teleport away Juubi's Bijuudama. Letting the objects (Sasuke, Naruto) jump together with the object on which Hiraishin is used and at which they are standing, is another matter. The example of Minato using Hiraishin on Sasuke and Naruto with latter as a connection [2] supports this actually well. Beings which are touching each other are connected, their Chakra is connected. Thus, teleportation is always shown to teleport a chain of people or beings which are touching each other in some way. The ground is not a medium which counts. That would be way too haxxed, because Minato could teleport anyone away without even touching him.

Refer to my above post. S/T Barrier was not used at all, I agree that the ground can't be used as a medium though.

Susanoo separates Itachi from Minato. Saying that Minato will somehow let his Chakra flow through this entity to teleport away the user inside of it is doubtful for me and not based on facts. Yes, he can teleport Susanoo together with Itachi inside of it, but cannot let his Chakra flow through Susanoo, to touch Itachi.

It works the same exact way he teleported Kurama.

-Not making contact with Kurama due to Bunta separating the two.
-Still warped him.

-Not making contact with Itachi due to Susanoo.
-Can still warp him.

Another hint could be, that Naruto directly touched Sasuke through Susanoo's ribcage, thus making direct contact with him.

That's Naruto though, not Minato himself, who made a connection via Naruto.

Well, it's just not proven.

Yeah, its not proven, but there is evidence that can lead to this conclusion.

Only if the Chakra of Susanoo is in reverse flowing into Itachi's body, what isn't the case. Minato's Chakra have to directly affect Itachi.

It wouldn't have to flow into Itachi's body, it'd simply have to touch him, which is possible as

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. If its not touching or connected to the user in anyway, then Susanoo itself can be warped away as there is supposedly nothing fixing it to Itachi.

 

[Bogard]

Logically it should be possible, but I have a feeling that it wouldn't work like this, mainly since we've only seen weapons and the body have chakra flowed through them..

lol, almost forgot as Strict said, he would have been able to teleport Hiruzen through that method.

Maybe, but it's also possible that it was a distance problem as well. It takes time for the chakra to chanell through objects and they were in a hurry to evade the attack before Tobirama's edo tensei explosion. After teleportation, Hiruzen was even much more further from them before getting crushed by Obito

Concerning the lower stages of Susanoo at the very least, we're sure that it's not even connected to the user. If it was the case, sand would not have entered to catch Madara and get him out of it

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[Strict]

I guess that it's depended by the position the user of Susanoo has. We know that the user can stay inside and also outside.

Look at Madara's position

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, and Sasuke's position

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while using Susanoo. In latter's case, Gaara's sand most likely wouldn't have worked.

 

[Bogard]

I guess that it's depended by the position the user of Susanoo has. We know that the user can stay inside and also outside.

Look at Madara's position

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, and Sasuke's position

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while using Susanoo. In latter's case, Gaara's sand most likely wouldn't have worked.

I think it's more like a visual mistake we're making. Because the Susanoo color is dark, we think from an external point that the user is entirely connected to it, but from an internal point, it's different

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We clearly see space inside the Susanoo [

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We even already saw Itachi out of his Susanoo as well [

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I think they aren't connected, but we're mistaking because of the external dark aspect color

 

[Strict]

If the user wasn't connected to his Susanoo, he wouldn't be able to stay at its center while the victim is punching Susanoo around [

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] [

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] [

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].

As I said, the user can decide how to act within Susanoo, whether moving around freely [

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] or staying in the middle of its body. And Madara was obviously acting more freely, when the sand managed to grab his hand.

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Here you can see, that the space of Susanoo isn't surrounding Sasuke at all. He stays in the foreground of the ribcage, which was broken by Obito before (when protecting Sasuke). But the user of Susanoo also showed that he can build a thick layer of Susanoo's Chakra around his whole body, protecting himself from all outside influences.

Naruto eludes Susanoo's ribcage to grab Sasuke's body and let the Hiraishin activate.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

The guy with the hair wins.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Chakra signature has nothing to do with the mechanics of Hiraishin at all. Susanoo is an object that Minato can use to establish a connection with Itachi thus he can teleport Itachi away without his Susanoo, its the same exact principle as when he teleported Kurama through Gamabunta, not seeing where this "distinguishing between chakra signatures" came from. Your chakra network example doesn't hold because:

1. Its been shown Susanoo can be separated from the user, clearly the chakra network can't.

2. Chakra network is internal, Susanoo is external.

Didn't think about it in that way. Got confused by something Dante said once. I forgot about this, which should clear everything up.

Featwise Tobirama can defeat Sasuke, but in terms of portrayal Sasuke should be stronger

Susanoo is not really an issue against a FTG user. I found something interesting concerning FTG that i overlooked before, explaining how Hiraishin users can decide what to teleport regardless of the connection existing with them.

First of all, like you know, Susanoo can be seperated from its user

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But that is not really the point. Read carefully:

- Hiraishin allows the user to select the ones he wants to teleport even if they are connected by the same chakra pattern. I noticed it thanks to Tobirama. Eventhough it's true he admitted he couldn't link as much people as Minato, it helped me to realise something. Alliance shinobi is connected to Naruto's chakra, right?

And it's that connection that helped Minato to teleport the entire alliance shinobi. [

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Now notice that when Tobirama used the connection between Minato, Naruto and the alliance Shinobi, he was capable to select the ones he wanted to teleport regardless of the fact that all of the alliance shinobi are all connected to the same chakra(Naruto's)
[

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] [

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What does it mean? It simply means that even if Sasuke is protected by his materialised chakra forming Susanoo, a hiraishin user can select what to teleport(Sasuke or his Susanoo) regardless of the chakra connection between Susanoo and it's user

So featwise, Tobirama has the tools to take this fight

 

[Bogard]

If the user wasn't connected to his Susanoo, he wouldn't be able to stay at its center while the victim is punching Susanoo around [

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] [

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] [

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].

As I said, the user can decide how to act within Susanoo, whether moving around freely [

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] or staying in the middle of its body. And Madara was obviously acting more freely, when the sand managed to grab his hand.

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Here you can see, that the space of Susanoo isn't surrounding Sasuke at all. He stays in the foreground of the ribcage, which was broken by Obito before (when protecting Sasuke). But the user of Susanoo also showed that he can build a thick layer of Susanoo's Chakra around his whole body, protecting himself from all outside influences.

Naruto eludes Susanoo's ribcage to grab Sasuke's body and let the Hiraishin activate.

Just think of Susanoo as if it was a skeleton

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Susanoo stages starts from ribcage which could represent the ribcage of the skeleton

Imagine now an ant inside said skeleton(let's say in his chest, which represents the chest of Susanoo in ribcage form). Inside the skeleton there is space where the ant(in the chest position) can travel to reach the head

It's basically the same thing i'm trying to explain with Susanoo here

Concerning your points, you forget something. If an animal(comparable in terms of size to the skeleton) is able to fit inside it, obviously if you were to punch the skeleton from an outside position, the animal inside would be pushed behind as well because of the result in impact between your punch, the skeleton and the animal inside the skeleton

 

[Strict]

To be fair, Oonoki made Gaara's sand lighter, so it can even pass through the ribcage.

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You see, despite Tsunade punches the ribcage of Madara's Susanoo in the front, where the ribs end and you have no solid resistance, Madara makes this whole construct as hard as the ribs, making it impossible to be penetrated even by Tsunade's punch. That's what I'm saying. The user is the one who decides the properties of his Susanoo.

Once Sasuke decided to crush Danzo by closing Susanoo's hand, he did it [

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]. Yet, Itachi did the same with Sasuke to protect him [

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].

There is no need to think so biologic. Susanoo is Chakra, which shape and properties are determined by the user. If he wants, he makes the Chakra solid for enemies and pervious for allies. He can smash the victim with the same hand he protects allies.

 

[Draphsin]

Minato has too many counters for Ama
(i) Speed
(ii) FTG
(iii) FTG Swap with a clone

None of these help if minato's summon is the target for ama.

Minato takes that frog inside of his BM cloak where Itachi can't enter or directly hit the frog with Ama as the cloak simply tanks that shit. Minato then marks that frog whilst he's in the cloak and that frog then goes back to taod land with no shits given to Itachi

1. Minato isnt summoning bunta & covering it in a cloak before itachi uses a single burst of ama.

2. Show me kurama's cloak "tanking" amaterasu, as far as we know ama can burn the cloak (albeit slowly) for the whole fight.

As I remember BM Naruto tanked Juubi's TB beam and no attack in Itachi's arsenal even comes close to that

Amaterasu is apparently shrugged off when it has the potential to do the most damage? lol okay...You don't know what ama would do against the cloak, you dont know if it would constantly burn it (which is what the manga suggests, based on everything else that ama has come into contact with) or not.

Unless you show me BM tanking ama then why should I believe that it wont stick to him or his cloak?

I wasn't suggesting Minato using his chakra to teleport the frog but to protect him via his clone.

Until you show me minato's chakra tanking ama then no this won't work. No evidence saying that the cloak stops fire from burning. Dont show me scans of cloaks tanking katon either because katon doesnt stay lit & its been proven that KCM cloak can also take damage. The avatar prevents this because of the abundance of chakra, but if Itachi uses ama on the avatar then tell me why it wouldnt stick to the chakra anyways?

I got that image off of internet, wasn't my doing but it certainly explains Minato's range

It doesnt explain how quickly he reached that range, you dont know if it took longer or shorter than it takes Itachi to cast ama. So this proof is invalid because while he may have a large range, the speed of his chakra is not instant.

As shown the frog isn't dying or anything, Minato's clone uses the massive range as shown and garbs Itachi and teleports to Toad land w/out Susanoo [as explained in earlier posts]

Proof that minato can reach such a range before itachi can react & do something (such as ama the chakra coming towards him).

Itachi simply uses susanoo again & then proceeds to ama the oil around him (should he get teleported). He starts to turn to stone? No problem, if Itachi uses ama right away (he will notice that he's trapped) then a single shot is all he needs. It will burn the stone he turns into plus the oil surrounding him. Suggesting that Itachi can instantly turn into stone before he is able to set off a single ama shot is foolish.

& I'm also curious, how does minato teleport Itachi without susanoo if it isnt touching him? [

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]

You said Itachi uses Ama on the oil as soon as he gets their. And you asked me the proof of other toads being friendly to Minato the known fourth Hokage who has a contract with all of them and his name on the register. LET ME ask you something how does Itachi even realize what the oil does?? Before that happens its too late for him. Again shows your bias.

Lol Itachi knows of sage mode. [

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][

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Trying to turn my logic against me? Sorry not gonna work, the proof im asking for is completely different than yours. I'm asking for legitimate evidence which suggests something that hasnt been shown or stated. Itachi knows of SM, suggesting that he may have an idea of what natural energy does.

Still this isnt 100% proof...but that doesnt matter because its logical to assume that Itachi will simply ama the oil anyways. He's trapped, Susanoo will be activated & so he can assess the situation before falling to such a trick. If he feels the effects of turning into toad then he uses a quick burst of amaterasu which is all he needs to set the oil/himself on fire.

As for minato, naruto doesnt know of every single toad, why should minato? There is nothing suggesting that there are any more friendly toads in the area, to assume that every toad is on minato's side is based on no evidence except for the fact that minato is a hokage...Naruto is the hero of konoha, the child of prophecy, the disciple of jiraiya, yet he isnt familiar with every single toad (even if there are any more).

All in all, Itachi will instantly know that he's trapped & if he's not with susanoo anymore then he re-activates it & assesses the situation. If he starts to transform then ama will simply burn his old body as he reforms a new one. Toad oil isnt working with this many flaws.

BM Minato not having the strength to crush a rib-cage Susanoo?? you really are an ass In BM Naruto tossed bijjus around with his mere hands and tails so crushing a rib-cage Susanoo is nothing to him. Also that pic shows how Obito grabbed his face so the eyes are shut. Minato Clones does the same with BM chakra arms

Still no proof I see. Lol

Prove that a bijuu's strength is even comparable to obio's, let alone on the same level. How do you know if he's stronger or not?

Obito has the power to instantly break barriers & sage mode enhanced seals when the juubi was a b*ch compared to

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+

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. Sorry but if you think that minato's strength is even close to obito's then you're saying that minato >>>> hashirama's gates & the four red yang barrier, which is absolutely f*cking laughable. Obito's strength rivals that of a juubi bijuudama, which didnt even have enough power to shatter the barrier like his chakra arms did. [

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Saying that Itachi spawns another ribcage whilst his current rib-cage Susanoo is being broken/ is half broken?? this guy went full retard, firstly you need one Susanoo deactivated completely before you spawn another and if you think otherwise then POST a friggin scan.

Show me a susanoo that hasnt been activated instantly because of the previous susanoo providing a hindrance, go ahead I'll wait.

You're the one suggesting things that havent been stated or shown in the manga, Itachi can summon susanoo instantly going by what the manga has shown us, & he can do it two times. Nothing suggesting otherwise so the burden of proof is on you.

Manga proves that if Itachi's first susanoo gets destroyed or removed then he can simply form another one (the previous one will dissipate & be unusable obviously). There is nothing which states that you need the first susanoo to be gone before you can activate another one, simply your assumption.

And by your shit logic it suggests that Itachi has zero chakra loss with all his Susanoos.

My logic suggests that Itachi can spawn two susanoos & this is based on evidence, stop being daft & saying that Itachi takes no chakra hit. Where did I say or even suggest that myself? Being able to summon a 2nd susanoo now means that Itachi takes no chakra loss from it? What the f*ck is wrong with your logic? Lol

Itachi isn't freeing himself from anything, all that awaits him is sealing and death

Show me minato sealing an edo.

1. You write something [not knowing the full extent of the things or how it really is]
2. I counter it whilst thinking how can this guy not even know that thing.
3. You ***** about scans or proof for a post or two
4. I provide that hoping you'd understand it
5. You then completely ignore that part and start another shit and I repeat the process

1/2. You didnt counter anything, sure you explained minato's FTG, but I ended up countering you based on that anyways.

3. Not my fault if one needs scans in order to debate, that's just what you have to do if you want to prove yourself right. u_u If I wanted fanfiction then I wouldve gone to that forum section. If there are no scans or feats then you have nothing but words, this argument is nothing but you speaking in scenarios that minato may not even be able to accomplish.

4. You provided no scans of what I asked for.

5. & where did I ignore your scans?

but you never go back to the part where you've been proven wrong and try to drag to then pointless debate.

& How exactly was I proven wrong? Your toad oil strategy isnt working & Minato can't seal edos. If anything you have been proven wrong, the rest of your argument is based on the fact that the toad oil will work no matter what, its a 100% chance according to you.

See, this is the difference between you and I. I can show you how a "fact" is fiction based on the evidence or lack thereof. & on the slight chance that I may be wrong, I will then expand & use contingency plan. I'm reinforcing my argument by using multiple points to counter one single point. The reason I'm doing this is because most, if not all of your arguments are based on assumptions (toad oil being faster than ama/susanoo, minato being able to seal souls, etc.).

In this situation, you simply have the toad oil point. I explained how Itachi can stop the teleport before it happens & I explained how susanoo/ama can be used inside the oil as well. While you on the other hand have no way to stop Itachi should he manage to escape the oil.

So a tip, if you were actually good at debating then you could consider the possibilities of being wrong, but of course, you're minator so what can I expect?