DSM Kakashi vs. Tobirama

[TRE MERCER]

Kakashi neg difficulty.

 

[Narutimate Storm]

Tobirama can make up his little inferior speed with better sensing and better reactions then Minato.

Can you show the evidence which leaded you to these conclusion.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

An unstabilized PS could block full Kurama's bijudama [

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] despite it was a concentrated attack.

True.

Plus a half Kurama's bijudama could damage Juubito's Gudoudama [

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],

Half Kurama (perfect jin)+Sage>>100 Kurama anyway, is superior, so not that it matters. Gudoudama is able to tank 4 Juuibidamas. The opponent adding senjutsu chakra is its kryptonite too. So thats expected.

on the other hand Tobimara's attack couldn't.

Its not senjutsu so we shouldn't expect it to do much. But the fact that V1 Juuitbo cover himself w/ Gudoudama with from the rest of the explosion, To a God-Tier character, is an impressive feat itself.

And that wasn't just a single pucn from Shin Suenjo, that was 1000 punches.

Actually it was way less then 1000 since since Madara+Kurama destroyed a really good portion.

Can you show the evidence which leaded you to these conclusion.

Reaction:
-Tobirama: Bilitz by Juubito him and tag him 6 times (5 paper bomb slaps and 1 FTG tag)
-Minato: Blitz by Juuibto and can only block his attack.

Sense:

-Minato has to switch between battle mode and sense mode. He can't do i at the same time
-Tobirama can

 

[Gold Lightning]

Reaction:
-Tobirama: Bilitz by Juubito him and tag him 6 times (5 paper bomb slaps and 1 FTG tag)
-Minato: Blitz by Juuibto and can only block his attack.

Sense:

-Minato has to switch between battle mode and sense mode. He can't do i at the same time
-Tobirama can

Still spouting the same nonsense.

- Tobirama got blitzed, he sacrificed his immortal body in order to tag Juubito. If he were alive, he would've been dead. So if you base reactions on people needing to kill themselves then I guess Tobirama wins.
- He blocked an attack in his blind spot, he was looking at Naruto and worrying about him. Yet he still managed to block.

- Minato doesn't need to switch, he can sense naturally if he wants. Kurama already said that both he and minato got distracted. Tobirama couldn't sense Madara until after orochimaru told him, nor did he sense Hiruzen approaching when he saved Naruto from the god tree. Hashirama also sensed orochimaru's cells before Tobirama did, that doesn't make Hashirama better than him.

Don't know where you got 'battle mode' from. Never heard of it. Need to stop making up things and clinging into false hope. When kishi himself mentions that Tobirama has better reactions and reflexes, then you can talk. He already said which of the 2 is faster.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

- Tobirama got blitzed, he sacrificed his immortal body in order to tag Juubito. If he were alive, he would've been dead. So if you base reactions on people needing to kill themselves then I guess Tobirama wins.

Even if he he was dead that doesn't change the fact that he tag him five times before the same hand was ripped apart. That is still impressive to a the character they were fighting. Juubito's speed>Minato on top of that

-He blocked an attack in his blind spot, he was looking at Naruto and worrying about him. Yet he still managed to block.

Which is impressive indeed. But not impressive to what Tobirama did.

-Minato doesn't need to switch, he can sense naturally if he wants. Kurama already said that both he and minato got distracted. Tobirama couldn't sense Madara until after orochimaru told him, nor did he sense Hiruzen approaching when he saved Naruto from the god tree. Hashirama also sensed orochimaru's cells before Tobirama did, that doesn't make Hashirama better than him.

They both were distracted because they were in a middle of battle. He told Minato to switch to sense mode[

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] unless you have viz scan for a better clarification.

Using Tobirama example isn't helping you as this is the same case where Tobirama didn't want to sense chakra in his conversation with his brother, on whos going to become the 1st Hokage.

Don't know where you got 'battle mode' from. Never heard of it. Need to stop making up things and clinging into false hope. When kishi himself mentions that Tobirama has better reactions and reflexes, then you can talk. He already said which of the 2 is faster.

Read scan above.

 

[Raykyryn]

True.



Half Kurama (perfect jin)+Sage>>100 Kurama anyway, is superior, so not that it matters. Gudoudama is able to tank 4 Juuibidamas. The opponent adding senjutsu chakra is its kryptonite too. So thats expected.



Its not senjutsu so we shouldn't expect it to do much. But the fact that V1 Juuitbo cover himself w/ Gudoudama with from the rest of the explosion, To a God-Tier character, is an impressive feat itself.



Actually it was way less then 1000 since since Madara+Kurama destroyed a really good portion.

Senjutsu is needed after Obito had taken full control over the Tentails. Before this would have happened ,the Gudoudamas still couldn't error ninjutsus. Just see how Hiruzen and Tobimara could regenerate after they were damaged by the Gudoudamas but later Minato couldn't.
Plus you are saying that a non-concentrated attack like Tobimara's could take more damage than the Kyuubi's bijudama which is pretty concentrated? lol. You can't be expecting someone to buy this..

 

[TRE MERCER]

Someone end this please. I respect Ejblack because he always goin hard for the underdog but enough is enough Kakashi rapes this old fool Tobirama.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Senjutsu is needed after Obito had taken full control over the Tentails.

I don't remember that, scan ( of being mandatory for V2 and not V1 Juubito)?

Before this would have happened ,the Gudoudamas still couldn't error ninjutsus.

Proof?

Just see how Hiruzen and Tobimara could regenerate after they were damaged by the Gudoudamas but later Minato couldn't.

So how does that change the fact that ninjutsu works against Gudo?

Plus you are saying that a non-concentrated attack like Tobimara's could take more damage than the Kyuubi's bijudama which is pretty concentrated? lol. You can't be expecting someone to buy this..

What Tobirama's explosion lacks compare to TBB is blowing up multiples of multiplies of times. The size of it towers the scale on par with SS.

Which now goes back to my premise.

A couple of multiple punches from SS = Stripping PS. How much energy does 1 punch contain from SS? How much energy does 1 explosion contain from Goto?

 

[Gold Lightning]

Even if he he was dead that doesn't change the fact that he tag him five times before the same hand was ripped apart. That is still impressive to a the character they were fighting. Juubito's speed>Minato on top of that

Which is impressive indeed. But not impressive to what Tobirama did.

your opion, not fact. If someone asked me what is a better feat:
- getting utterly destroyed in the blink of an eye, but managing to tag my opponent a few times in the process
Or
- blocking an attack coming from my blind spot and coming out of it unscathed.

Not to mention that the kind of injury Tobirama sustained, wouldn't have allowed him to even set off those bombs. Like I said, he used his immortal body to his advantage. If he was alive, he would've just died, and there'd be nothing more to it. Minato could've tagged him as well if he was in the same position, it's not an incredible feat like you and your Tobirama brothers make it out to be. The fact is, if they were both alive, Tibirama would've died and his markings would've been for nothing, while minato would still be alive.

Yeah Juubito's speed>>>> everyone's - thanks for telling me U_U

1[/URL]] unless you have viz scan for a better clarification.

Using Tobirama example isn't helping you as this is the same case where Tobirama didn't want to sense chakra in his conversation with his brother, on whos going to become the 1st Hokage.

I don't have the scan at the moment, I can find it later.

BS assumption with no evidence to back up your claim. In fact, Tobirama spiked his chakra and attempted to attack Sasuke beforehand. This shows he was kneading chakra, yet he still didn't sense Madara until orochimaru told him. And it was minato who sensed Naruto and Kurama first before Tobirama even mentioned he sensed Madara. So at this point Tobirama was kneading chakra and should've been sensing, yet he couldn't sense his brothers cells in orochimaru, in fact Hashirama beat him to it. This just proves anyone can be easily distracted, it shows Tobirama can't sense everything all the time. And you didn't respond to my comment about him not sensing Hiruzen approaching.

I see it's easy for you to down rate Minatos abilities but totally disregard any flaws of tobiramas, you're completely one sided smh.

 

[Raykyryn]

I don't remember that, scan ( of being mandatory for V2 and not V1 Juubito)?




Proof?




So how does that change the fact that ninjutsu works against Gudo?




What Tobirama's explosion lacks compare to TBB is blowing up multiples of multiplies of times. The size of it towers the scale on par with SS.

Which now goes back to my premise.

A couple of multiple punches from SS = Stripping PS. How much energy does 1 punch contain from SS? How much energy does 1 explosion contain from Goto?

After Tobimara noticed that Minato's hand wasn't recovering, he made a speculation that it was because Juubito was using Omnyoudon which negates all ninjutsu. Juubito confirmed that.
But mindless juubito still coudn't control his abilities aka Onmyoudan that's why edo Hiruzen and Tobimara could regenerate.

What Tobirama's explosion lacks compare to TBB is blowing up multiples of multiplies of times. The size of it towers the scale on par with SS.

Who cares about size?

A couple of multiple punches from SS = Stripping PS.

Senjutsu gave a huge boost to the SS.

And you can only speculate on how strong that explosion was. It totally lacks feats. You will never prove that it could break through PS.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

your opion, not fact. If someone asked me what is a better feat:
- getting utterly destroyed in the blink of an eye, but managing to tag my opponent a few times in the process
Or
- blocking an attack coming from my blind spot and coming out of it unscathed.

Not to mention that the kind of injury Tobirama sustained, wouldn't have allowed him to even set off those bombs. Like I said, he used his immortal body to his advantage. If he was alive, he would've just died, and there'd be nothing more to it. Minato could've tagged him as well if he was in the same position, it's not an incredible feat like you and your Tobirama brothers make it out to be. The fact is, if they were both alive, Tibirama would've died and his markings would've been for nothing, while minato would still be alive.

Yeah Juubito's speed>>>> everyone's - thanks for telling me U_U

-True that its a matter of opinion but then again taking on Gudo then taking on a kick. One of them has to sound better from the majority.

@Bold, Proof? Because he had a perfect opportunity to tag Juuibto's legs at least once.

Your telling me I am being one-sided while your trying to say what Tobirama did wasn't impressive? Ok.

I don't have the scan at the moment, I can find it later.

BS assumption with no evidence to back up your claim. In fact, Tobirama spiked his chakra and attempted to attack Sasuke beforehand. This shows he was kneading chakra, yet he still didn't sense Madara until orochimaru told him. And it was minato who sensed Naruto and Kurama first before Tobirama even mentioned he sensed Madara. So at this point Tobirama was kneading chakra and should've been sensing, yet he couldn't sense his brothers cells in orochimaru, in fact Hashirama beat him to it. This just proves anyone can be easily distracted, it shows Tobirama can't sense everything all the time. And you didn't respond to my comment about him not sensing Hiruzen approaching.

I see it's easy for you to down rate Minatos abilities but totally disregard any flaws of tobiramas, you're completely one sided smh.

Cant wait for your scan then

Proof that spiking chakra means it activates sensing type? All of your other points only showed that Tobirama was careless to what he wants to sense (which is why I brought up the Hokage conversation. He has better sensing then Hashirama, fact. But he still refused to sense chakra.)

I didn't respond to Hiruzen point because its pointless to bring it up. Was Hiruzen suppose to be an enemy in his case? Was it needed for him to sense Hiruzen on his way?

 

[Selan]

War Arc one Sharingan/MS Kakashi vs Tobirama is debatable, but I'd say Kakashi is slightly better. Full power Kamui + PS Kakashi is just too much.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

After Tobimara noticed that Minato's hand wasn't recovering, he made a speculation that it was because Juubito was using Omnyoudon which negates all ninjutsu. Juubito confirmed that.
But mindless juubito still coudn't control his abilities aka Onmyoudan that's why edo Hiruzen and Tobimara could regenerate.

I already understand this part. Does Juubito body possess Omnyoudon too? Or Gudo itself?

Who cares about size?

Because it is expanding more circular force that inflicts damage principally atmosphere-transmitted mechanical stress.

Senjutsu gave a huge boost to the SS.

I knows this already. SS is still a physical attack so the energy output comes from the momentum the fist swung and the weight+mass it carries

And you can only speculate on how strong that explosion was. It totally lacks feats. You will never prove that it could break through PS.

Well the fact that the first explosion destroy deity gates (which holds characters and summonings) and certain characters told to retreat from, can still make logical conclusions.

 

[Gold Lightning]

-True that its a matter of opinion but then again taking on Gudo then taking on a kick. One of them has to sound better from the majority.

@Bold, Proof? Because he had a perfect opportunity to tag Juuibto's legs at least once.

Your telling me I am being one-sided while your trying to say what Tobirama did wasn't impressive? Ok.

- well if it comes down to sacrificing or severely damaging myself in order to hit my opponent or being able to block said opponent and being able to continue to fight afterwards... Then I think I'd pick the latter.

Are you not the one who said that minato needs to switch to sensor type those to sense while Tobirama doesn't? Now you're saying Tobirama does indeed have to switch to señor type too to sense? Make up your mind. Tobirama only mentioned that he couldn't sense because he wasn't kneading chakra, and I proved that he was kneading chakra when he attempted to attack Sasuke, yet he still didn't sense.

Yes, I guess he was careless in his sensing... Poor you could say he was distracted. What I'm trying to figure out is why you blatantly label minato an inferior sensor due to lack of concentration...or should I say 'carelessness'. Yes minato was careless with his sensing, and should've sensed Naruto. But there are things Tobirama should've sensed as well, but of course you won't acknowledge these will you.

I didn't respond to Hiruzen point because its pointless to bring it up. Was Hiruzen suppose to be an enemy in his case? Was it needed for him to sense Hiruzen on his way?

Why won't you respond. I'm just calling you out on your unproven statement that Tobirama can sense all the time, yet he's failed to sense multiple things even while kneading chakra.

I'm not trying to say what Tobirama did was unimpressive, but if that feat is what you try to use to justify him having superior reactions and reflexes, then of course I have to laugh at such BS. Cee commented that Ay's lightning shroud gives him enhanced reflexes on oar to Minatos, and then later was impressed that Taka was able to keep up pretty well. Speed, reactions, reflexes, space time jutsu all come under the same category in this manga. Minato wasn't just hailed as the fastest ninja because of FTG and his foot speed, it was the whole package, including reactions and reflexes. Speed in General takes into consideration all of that. And both Ay and Tobirama have already admitted inferiority to, I don't need proof to know minato could've marked Juubito, Minatos hype is all the proof I need.

Do you have proof of kishi clearly stating that Minatos reflexes are below tobiramas? No you don't. But I promise you there is proof of kishi telling us who is faster of the two, because kishi made it clear and obvious. When minato saw Tobirama mark and tag Juubito, all minato said was that Tobirama was quick at striking (a compliment that Tobirama already gave minato). Minato did not say.."oh wow, his reactions and reflexes surpass my own!!! ".

 

[Brother Numpsay]

- well if it comes down to sacrificing or severely damaging myself in order to hit my opponent or being able to block said opponent and being able to continue to fight afterwards... Then I think I'd pick the latter.

And what if Gudo wasn't used on Tobirama, just like what happen to KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke? Or that Juubito use Gudo on his feet against Minato?

It makes sense that attempting to use one hand to slap bombs on each limb on different locations of the body to the fastest character blitz with Gudo is still more impressive, especially when compare to the other characters it blitz.

Are you not the one who said that minato needs to switch to sensor type those to sense while Tobirama doesn't? Now you're saying Tobirama does indeed have to switch to señor type too to sense? Make up your mind. Tobirama only mentioned that he couldn't sense because he wasn't kneading chakra, and I proved that he was kneading chakra when he attempted to attack Sasuke, yet he still didn't sense.

No I said using it efficiently in the middle of battle. I didn't say anything about activating it in general. kneading chakra doesn't =/= kneading sensor chakra

Yes, I guess he was careless in his sensing... Poor you could say he was distracted. What I'm trying to figure out is why you blatantly label minato an inferior sensor due to lack of concentration...or should I say 'carelessness'. Yes minato was careless with his sensing, and should've sensed Naruto. But there are things Tobirama should've sensed as well, but of course you won't acknowledge these will you.

Because he can't sense in combat which I proved and waiting for your scan to prove he can in battle. There is nothing you stated that proves Tobirama cannot use sense type while in battle.

Why won't you respond. I'm just calling you out on your unproven statement that Tobirama can sense all the time, yet he's failed to sense multiple things even while kneading chakra.

No its your misinterpreting of what kneading chakra for and kneading chakra =/= automatically have sense chakra on.

I'm not trying to say what Tobirama did was unimpressive, but if that feat is what you try to use to justify him having superior reactions and reflexes, then of course I have to laugh at such BS. Cee commented that Ay's lightning shroud gives him enhanced reflexes on oar to Minatos, and then later was impressed that Taka was able to keep up pretty well. Speed, reactions, reflexes, space time jutsu all come under the same category in this manga. Minato wasn't just hailed as the fastest ninja because of FTG and his foot speed, it was the whole package, including reactions and reflexes. Speed in General takes into consideration all of that. And both Ay and Tobirama have already admitted inferiority to, I don't need proof to know minato could've marked Juubito, Minatos hype is all the proof I need.

Your premise of using speed, reactions, reflexes coming in the same package is where I stopped as that isn't true at all.

Do you have proof of kishi clearly stating that Minatos reflexes are below tobiramas? No you don't. But I promise you there is proof of kishi telling us who is faster of the two, because kishi made it clear and obvious. When minato saw Tobirama mark and tag Juubito, all minato said was that Tobirama was quick at striking (a compliment that Tobirama already gave minato). Minato did not say.."oh wow, his reactions and reflexes surpass my own!!! ".

No, but I gave a scan that comes down to an opion to which Tobirama does have better reflexes going by feats. So statements aren't needed