-Condition: Nagato can use his legs and is healthy, basically, Edo form without Edo Tensei's benefits, of course.
-Nagato has the Mazou with 7 Biju's stored in it.
-Restriction: CST. ET.
-We're looking for 2 judges minimum; if votes are balanced, we'll get third one and will be last.
Nagato will fight this titanic by summoning Gedo Mazo, which is undeniably the superior summon as I'll outline the reasons. The issues Nagato encountered for using the Mazo first time was due to the emptiness of Biju's Chakra, which lead the statue to feed on Nagato's Chakra; this is addressed in the op, meaning all feats Obito, inferior Rinnegan wielder, displayed with the Mazo are applicable to Nagato.
Size comparison is concerned: Manda II is roughly the length of Island Turtle, which is the length of PS & Jubi & Mokujin [
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]; all of those titans are singular mountain sized. Jubi compared to Doton Sandwich Jutsu [
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] and Gedo Mazo compared to the said Jutsu, [
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] will be the exact comparison between Manda II and Mazou.
Manda II's particular feats are its speed and physical strength don't threaten the statue, when it can physically stop two mountains accelerating at high speed with its hands only, which trumps any physical strength Manda II displayed. Mazou will shoot black rods, which serve great deal of purpose: they will enable Nagato to either immobolize Manda or control it like its his summon. The functions of the black stakes are clear:
They control any living specie by injecting user's Chakra.
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They shut down Chakra points, which leaves the victim unable to mold Chakra or move.
All in all, Kabuto's summon is either Nagato's pet or it's dead meat.
Defensive
The Rinnegan gifted Nagato with wide range of defensive moves, which Kabuto isn't bypassing. I will address them in points:
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Databook IV on Asura Path's mechanism:
''A dangerous armored weapon that holds the repulsive wish for a person's blood!
One of Rikudo's techniques where arms/weapons are summoned (w/ Kuchiyose) make ones own body into a weapon. To toy with the enemy through the usage of Taijutsu normally humanly impossible one can disgustingly change their shape at will. The enemy suffers a certain death blow. Summoning (again Kuchiyose) unknown bombardment weapons that have yet to be manufactured in the Ninja World, in order to cope with the opponent, different weapons are equipped to match the enemies flow during battle.
Arms increase, a fierce attack that pressures the enemy. A godsend to take advantage of the chink in the enemies armor through the use of various tactics.''
Asura Path gives Nagato the ability to manufacture his body's structure into a robot, basically. That comes with perks like immense durability, (which allows him to survive one-shot techniques, like two Raikri and two giant hands) speed and physical strength (enough to rival that of Senjutsu users. The greatest purpose it serves is, as I said: anatomy structure manufacturing. Techniques like White Rage and Genjutsu will be useless, because inflicts pain on bones and the other manipulates the brain; Asura Path will make Nagato immune to both, as robotic body has no bones nor nerve system. Poisons Kabuto got from Orochimaru are also futile for stated reason.
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Naraka Path, by summoning the King of Heal, can heal and regenerate any physical damage inflicted. We seen this when it regenerated the entire slaughtered corpse of Asura Path.
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Moreover, the field of vision granted by Rinnegan will enable Nagato to see Kabuto from multiple places at once, which he can access to by Rinnegan summons; each are controlled by Nagato himself, judging by the black stakes implanted on their bodies and databook info on. Any chances of surprise attacks amplified by Nagato's sensory are useless. Deva Path is able to repel Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, regardless of its strength. Preta can absorb all of forms of Ninjutsu. Kabuto isn't touching Nagato with these defensive powers.
Offense
Nagato has many ways to put down Kabuto, but I'll choose one and change it after you argue against it. Starting with this one:
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Chakra Receivers or black rods; I mentioned its mechanism on the summon part, but I'll repeat it here. If Kabuto is stabbed by any of those, his Chakra points are shut down. We know this because Rinnegan can see Chakra network, like Byakugan, which will enable Nagato to see that too and close it with the rods. [
Nagato will fight this titanic by summoning Gedo Mazo, which is undeniably the superior summon as I'll outline the reasons. The issues Nagato encountered for using the Mazo first time was due to the emptiness of Biju's Chakra, which lead the statue to feed on Nagato's Chakra; this is addressed in the op, meaning all feats Obito, inferior Rinnegan wielder, displayed with the Mazo are applicable to Nagato.
Just want to point out only 1 thing here. Obito had superior sealing ability and chakra receiver stated by Naruto. And we know Madara has shown to make it superior to Obito's. So I would suggest you avoid transferring feats for both of those abilities while I agree with everything else.
Manda II's particular feats are its speed and physical strength don't threaten the statue, when it can physically stop two mountains accelerating at high speed with its hands only, which trumps any physical strength Manda II displayed. Mazou will shoot black rods, which serve great deal of purpose: they will enable Nagato to either immobolize Manda or control it like its his summon. The functions of the black stakes are clear
@Bold: The only thing that would make this point relevant is if the scenario would of been Manda2 attempting to squeeze the living life out of Mazo. That logic doesn't work if Manda2 decides to tail swipe and smacking it around a couple of meters. Because, although Mazou has the feats backed up from getting crushed, it doesnt change the fact that we have characters like
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by kicking its toes. And we know for sure Guy isnt physically superior then Manda2. So my premise here is simple, Manda2 keeps knocking it around repeatedly till the Summoner is taken care of.
As for chakra receivers, Mazo only has shown to make them the size relatively the same Nagato has shown making. And they are in no shape being relative of pinning Manda2. Worst case scenario, even though not needed, is that he simply sheds off the skin thats been pierce.
Asura Path gives Nagato the ability to manufacture his body's structure into a robot, basically. That comes with perks like immense durability, (which allows him to survive one-shot techniques, like two Raikri and two giant hands) speed and physical strength (enough to rival that of Senjutsu users. The greatest purpose it serves is, as I said: anatomy structure manufacturing. Techniques like White Rage and Genjutsu will be useless, because inflicts pain on bones and the other manipulates the brain; Asura Path will make Nagato immune to both, as robotic body has no bones nor nerve system. Poisons Kabuto got from Orochimaru are also futile for stated reason.
Durability was the reason? No. Endurance? Yes. SM Naruto one shot Asura body. Asura path never rivaled Sejutsu users speed and physical strength. Even then its not relevant since both the Senjutsu users I am assuming you are talking about is still inferior to Kabuto in those category.
The DB states robot structures manufactures using the casters body as a medium. It does not say that it replaces body parts the owner originally has. Manga shows this so dont take that out of context. Nothing else to say, you took the DB out of context which lead you to the assumption that the jutsus you listed is automatically countered.
Naraka Path, by summoning the King of Heal, can heal and regenerate any physical damage inflicted. We seen this when it regenerated the entire slaughtered corpse of Asura Path.
What scenario would Nagato let Kabuto watch him walk in and walk out? I can think of 2 scenarios where Nagato would be screwed if he decide to go inside. Kabuto can use a snake summon, that would suffice of eating the King and Reverse Summon out. The match would end by BFR in this likely scenario.
Or
Kabuto can use his surrounding as an advantage creating a cave via Muki Tensei. Then ends it with White Rage full effect once he comes out.
Moreover, the field of vision granted by Rinnegan will enable Nagato to see Kabuto from multiple places at once, which he can access to by Rinnegan summons; each are controlled by Nagato himself, judging by the black stakes implanted on their bodies and databook info on. Any chances of surprise attacks amplified by Nagato's sensory are useless. Deva Path is able to repel Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, regardless of its strength. Preta can absorb all of forms of Ninjutsu. Kabuto isn't touching Nagato with these defensive powers.
Once Kabuto activates DNA, Sage Clones greatly benefits him in multi tasking. Summons are also being taken out by Manda2. The Cerebus gets taken out by a 8 Branch Clone's poison bite. So this extra eyes are taken care of by Kabuto's own summons.
Nagato gambles who or what to use Deva path ST or BT on. And Kabuto or Clone can take advantage of the 5 secs space.
And Nagato isnt absorbing material thats just enhanced by chakra via Kidomaru's Golden Arrow or Kimmiaro's Bones. Then you have the fact that Kabuto can mix White Snake poison into his attack, so even if he absorbs the ninjutsu he will get a nice surprise of poison being expose by the material.
Chakra Receivers or black rods; I mentioned its mechanism on the summon part, but I'll repeat it here. If Kabuto is stabbed by any of those, his Chakra points are shut down. We know this because Rinnegan can see Chakra network, like Byakugan, which will enable Nagato to see that too and close it with the rods. [
For your premise to work is for Nagato engage Kabuto in CQC. And we know once DNA is activated, Nagato gets crapped on. Reeciviers gets blocked by bones popping and parry on that location. Or gets owned using Kimmaroo's Taijutsu, added with Jirobo super human strength boost, and by the fact that physical contact means Parasite jutsu gg.
But lets say Kabuto does get hit by receivers, which isnt happening as its suicide. It would take multiple of receivers to actually put a character down and the momment even 1 lands, Kabuto simply sheds it off or Oral Rebirth a new body.
So this is how the battle ends. Continuous long range battle means Genjutsu gg.
A Close range battle means what I addressed above which = gg.
As long as i'm judging the quality of the argument alone, yeah- of course I can be objective. Your call, guys. This is a cool matchup i've been wanting to know the bottom of for a while.
Just want to point out only 1 thing here. Obito had superior sealing ability and chakra receiver stated by Naruto. And we know Madara has shown to make it superior to Obito's. So I would suggest you avoid transferring feats for both of those abilities while I agree with everything else.
Incorrect contextual understanding. This is what he said in the official VIZ:
''Those rods bind all they touch...they're stronger restraints than Nagato Pain's Gedo powers'' - VIZ thread, page 99, post 1,977.
It's important to understand the context. He states they are stronger than Nagato's/Pain's after he manifests the chains, which amplify the restraint further. The chains are part of the Outer Path. There is no reason to compare to Pain's, if he's just talking about Nagato. We know that Pain can't use the Outer Path, because each Pain body has its path power, while the Outer Path was reserved for Nagato only. [
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] There is nothing that suggests Nagato himself (superior to Pain) cannot use the Mazo at the extent Obito did, when he's a superior Rinnegan user as admitted by Obito.
Also, this point is pointless to bring up. I never said the Mazou would use the chains.
@Bold: The only thing that would make this point relevant is if the scenario would of been Manda2 attempting to squeeze the living life out of Mazo. That logic doesn't work if Manda2 decides to tail swipe and smacking it around a couple of meters. Because, although Mazou has the feats backed up from getting crushed, it doesnt change the fact that we have characters like Gated Guy can having it toppling over by kicking its toes. And we know for sure Guy isnt physically superior then Manda2. So my premise here is simple, Manda2 keeps knocking it around repeatedly till the Summoner is taken care of.
The analogy is horrible here. Gai was a small target, and the statue was facing multiple opponents at the time - one of which was a giant; BM Bee. Mazo has to only focus on Manda II, which is easy when he has the strength to stop to colliding mountains, which would enable it to throw it around from the tail. Not to mention its lightning that can demolish two mountains. What durability feats Manda II has suggesting it can tank it? None as far as I'm concerned.
As for chakra receivers, Mazo only has shown to make them the size relatively the same Nagato has shown making. And they are in no shape being relative of pinning Manda2. Worst case scenario, even though not needed, is that he simply sheds off the skin thats been pierce.
The size of the rods are irrelevant. All he needs is a lot of them to immobolize Manda II, since they pierce Chakra system, which in return negates chances of molding Chakra, so your skin shedding isn't applicable.
Durability was the reason? No. Endurance? Yes. SM Naruto one shot Asura body. Asura path never rivaled Sejutsu users speed and physical strength. Even then its not relevant since both the Senjutsu users I am assuming you are talking about is still inferior to Kabuto in those category.
SM Naruto one-shotting Asura Path was nothing more than plot inconsistency. It survived two Raikirs and punched by Choji and his father, relatively better endurance than anything SM users forecast. As for strength and speed, physical strength is variable; powerlifter can lift huge weight (SM users) and boxers hit a lot harder (Asura). Asura Pain literally ripped off SM Jiraiya's arm off, who is more durable than Orochimaru, who was tanking P1 Tsunade's punches, which are top physical power feat. Nagato himself gets superior Asura feats, as he's the real thing which would enable him to beat Kabuto in physique. Speed? I was talking about Nagato's perspective.
The DB states robot structures manufactures using the casters body as a medium. It does not say that it replaces body parts the owner originally has. Manga shows this so dont take that out of context. Nothing else to say, you took the DB out of context which lead you to the assumption that the jutsus you listed is automatically countered.
''One of Rikudo's techniques where arms/weapons are summoned (w/ Kuchiyose) make ones own body into a weapon. To toy with the enemy through the usage of Taijutsu normally humanly impossible one can disgustingly change their shape at will. The enemy suffers a certain death blow. Summoning (again Kuchiyose) unknown bombardment weapons that have yet to be manufactured in the Ninja World, in order to cope with the opponent, different weapons are equipped to match the enemies flow during battle.'' - Databook IV
It clearly says the user's body is manufactured into a weapon. Body being organic materials transforming into hardened materials. Manga shows a much superior view than what's stated, since we are seeing Asura forming genetics into limbs. [
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] You can look here that after Naruto struck Asura Pain, there is no blood or organs show but what's seen is robotic substance. [
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] He gets perks like Genjutsu immunity (as shown) and immunity toward White Rage.
Once Kabuto activates DNA, Sage Clones greatly benefits him in multi tasking. Summons are also being taken out by Manda2. The Cerebus gets taken out by a 8 Branch Clone's poison bite. So this extra eyes are taken care of by Kabuto's own summons.
You're speculating hasty assumptions. How many clones can Kabuto create? SM Naruto who has larger Chakra supply can make 2 at minimum, so Kabuto isn't creating more than that. That's actually assuming he can create two like Naruto, but I'll go with that.
@Bold: Manda II is pressured by Mazo.
Underlined: Poisons won't do a thing on Rinnegan summons. They are dead mystical creatures, controlled by Nagato. Their non-functional anatomy will make the poison useless. This is according to DB4:
''Basically just talking about how one summons animals with Rinnegan. It mentions that Nagato has the same power as Rikudo-Sennin. Than it talks about the summons sharing the same field of vision. Talks about how the Animals are controled by Pain's real body (Nagato). Than I think it says that giving the summons shared field of vision requires more chakra from Nagato than it does for Rikudo, because Rikudo's ability is number one...but the page gets blury'' - Databook IV
@Red: Rinnegan summons are superior to 8 Branch as well as snake summons (bar Manda II). I can outline this in my last post.
''Nagato gambles who or what to use Deva path ST or BT on. And Kabuto or Clone can take advantage of the 5 secs space.''
And how is he going to do that?
And Nagato isnt absorbing material thats just enhanced by chakra via Kidomaru's Golden Arrow or Kimmiaro's Bones. Then you have the fact that Kabuto can mix White Snake poison into his attack, so even if he absorbs the ninjutsu he will get a nice surprise of poison being expose by the material.
Kidomaru's Arrows have Chakra kneaded to them, hence why Neji could struck them and see them, so Preta Path absorbs that Chakra and the Jutsu is cancelled. But does he necessary have to absorb it? No. He can shield himself with many options, from elemental defences (Doton wall) to using Rinnegan summons.
For your premise to work is for Nagato engage Kabuto in CQC. And we know once DNA is activated, Nagato gets crapped on. Reeciviers gets blocked by bones popping and parry on that location. Or gets owned using Kimmaroo's Taijutsu, added with Jirobo super human strength boost, and by the fact that physical contact means Parasite jutsu gg.
Asura Path's perks; physical strength equal to P1 Tsunade by feats. Asura Pain blustered a rock boulder equal to the boulders Tsunade punches.
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Physically, Nagato overwhelms him. Mystically, there is Human Path which is a suicide. The black rods have pierced through Hachibi's tails and intercepted Enton; what feats do you have the bones can block the rods?
But lets say Kabuto does get hit by receivers, which isnt happening as its suicide. It would take multiple of receivers to actually put a character down and the momment even 1 lands, Kabuto simply sheds it off or Oral Rebirth a new body.
Incorrect contextual understanding. This is what he said in the official VIZ
It's important to understand the context. He states they are stronger than Nagato's/Pain's after he manifests the chains, which amplify the restraint further. The chains are part of the Outer Path. There is no reason to compare to Pain's, if he's just talking about Nagato. We know that Pain can't use the Outer Path, because each Pain body has its path power, while the Outer Path was reserved for Nagato only. [
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] There is nothing that suggests Nagato himself (superior to Pain) cannot use the Mazo at the extent Obito did, when he's a superior Rinnegan user as admitted by Obito.
Naruto talks the same way facing Edo Nagato himself via comparing him to Pains. Naruto knows Out Path can only be used by Nagato and calls it Gedo Powers. Naruto is making the comparison of both Nagato and Pains usage of the jutsu. As he experience both of them single handily. And was able to have some resistance over both of theirs. But none against Obito at all. So I dont see how VIZ changes the context at all.
The analogy is horrible here. Gai was a small target, and the statue was facing multiple opponents at the time - one of which was a giant; BM Bee. Mazo has to only focus on Manda II, which is easy when he has the strength to stop to colliding mountains, which would enable it to throw it around from the tail. Not to mention its lightning that can demolish two mountains. What durability feats Manda II has suggesting it can tank it? None as far as I'm concerned.
Thats a perfect analogy. Gai being a small target supports my case since it takes a small target with that kind of physical strength to trip Gedo. Gedo facing multiple opponents doesnt change what Gai had already accomplished. The weight of the attack from Manda 2 is most definitely going to knock away Mazo. Thats illogical to say because you can block yourself from getting crushed in between, means you can do that in the same motion getting tackled and stay in one place.
I have no idea how much damage the jutsu would do against Manda 2. Im not concern when Mazo will be smacked around multiple times to even try.
The size of the rods are irrelevant. All he needs is a lot of them to immobolize Manda II, since they pierce Chakra system, which in return negates chances of molding Chakra, so your skin shedding isn't applicable.
Only if hypothetically he can get alot of them in then maybe. Considering Snake are excellent in slipping past offenses demonstrated by inferior snake via Aoba. Its hardly working.
SM Naruto one-shotting Asura Path was nothing more than plot inconsistency. It survived two Raikirs and punched by Choji and his father, relatively better endurance than anything SM users forecast. As for strength and speed, physical strength is variable; powerlifter can lift huge weight (SM users) and boxers hit a lot harder (Asura). Asura Pain literally ripped off SM Jiraiya's arm off, who is more durable than Orochimaru, who was tanking P1 Tsunade's punches, which are top physical power feat. Nagato himself gets superior Asura feats, as he's the real thing which would enable him to beat Kabuto in physique. Speed? I was talking about Nagato's perspective.
Nope its accurate as I mentioned Asura durability isnt all that. Asura endurance is crazy good on the other hand. This ABC doesnt hold or support your point. Orochimaru has a modify physique to take Tsunades punch. Jiraya will never ever tank a punch from Tsunade dont debate this. CS2 Jirobo already matched Tsunade strength while Kabuto gets access to it along with superior SM boost. Even if you think Asura packs more punch then Kabuto, is not relevant since his lifting strength, CQC skill, along with superior reflexes out matches him.
It clearly says the user's body is manufactured into a weapon. Body being organic materials transforming into hardened materials. Manga shows a much superior view than what's stated, since we are seeing Asura forming genetics into limbs. [
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] You can look here that after Naruto struck Asura Pain, there is no blood or organs show but what's seen is robotic substance. [
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] He gets perks like Genjutsu immunity (as shown) and immunity toward White Rage.
You just bold the part where is being summoned. So no you dont have a point. It being summoned does not mean it replaces the orignal flesh such as limbs and brain. It only upgrades it or adds more. Asura body was drawing blood from Kakashi's attack. While your example of using a corpse body should not be speculated to even say Nagato's body would be the same.
You're speculating hasty assumptions. How many clones can Kabuto create? SM Naruto who has larger Chakra supply can make 2 at minimum, so Kabuto isn't creating more than that. That's actually assuming he can create two like Naruto, but I'll go with that.
Underlined: Poisons won't do a thing on Rinnegan summons. They are dead mystical creatures, controlled by Nagato. Their non-functional anatomy will make the poison useless. This is according to DB4:
They are dead yet can be killed? Pains are dead corpse yet genjutsu and death blows can take them out? Yea poison is going to be no different working. According to DB4 doesnt change anything. Kabuto wasnt able to control Edo Hanzo when the poison begin to start taking effect to his body.
Kidomaru's Arrows have Chakra kneaded to them, hence why Neji could struck them and see them, so Preta Path absorbs that Chakra and the Jutsu is cancelled. But does he necessary have to absorb it? No. He can shield himself with many options, from elemental defences (Doton wall) to using Rinnegan summons.
The Gold itself is material made and produce from Kido body same way Kimmiaro's bones work[
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]. So its not getting canceled.
Arrows can be manipulated mid flight while at the same time its power to clear the entire forest in its path. Blocking is not an option for Nagato.
And lets not forget that the White Snake poison still on the materials I mentioned and it also capable of vaporizing in the air around Nagato. So if he so happen succeed Poison GG.
This is completely wrong that was Asura's jutsu. And the strength argument was already addressed as its not even relevant based on the fact that Kabuto is still superior in CQC and reflexes.
Physically, Nagato overwhelms him. Mystically, there is Human Path which is a suicide. The black rods have pierced through Hachibi's tails and intercepted Enton; what feats do you have the bones can block the rods?
First I never denied that one rod can disturb chakra alone. That isnt evidence that Kabuto can't use ninjutsu when we see characters Naruto, Hashirama and Tobirama doing that just fine.
I already clear up 2 points on why Rods arent factoring at all in this match.
