Does beating someone with a suicide tech count as a victory?

[AaaaNinja]

So, in a top 10 list, I'd put someone above another person if they could defeat them. But does dying just do defeat someone count as a win?

I'm bringing this up because of the top 10 lists with gai in them, even though saying minato/hiruzen > (place example here) because of RDS is another way to put it.

If someone is really stronger than another, they should be able to win without dying

There are Pokemon that have some suicidal techs, and there are competition rules to resolve matches that are ended with one.:

6. Match Resolution
A player wins by making his or her opponent’s final Pokémon faint.

• If the player’s final Pokémon used Selfdestruct, Explosion, Destiny Bond, or Final Gambit, and both players’ final Pokémon faint as a result, the player who used the move loses that game.
  
• If a player’s final Pokémon used Double‐Edge, Volt Tackle, Flare Blitz, Take Down, Submission, Brave Bird, Wood Hammer, Head Smash, Struggle, Head Charge, or Wild Charge, or was holding Life Orb, and both players’ final Pokémon faint as a result, the player who used the move wins that game.
  
• If both players’ final Pokémon faint due to a weather condition, such as Hail or Sandstorm, the player whose Pokémon faints last wins the game. This includes the effects of Perish Song.
  
• If a Pokémon’s Ability (such as Rough Skin, Aftermath, Liquid Ooze, or Iron Barbs) or held item (such as Rocky Helmet) results in each player’s final Pokémon fainting, the player whose Pokémon had the Ability or held item wins the game.

 

[Exaar]

Depends.

If the Jutsu like deidara's that kills you and your oponent instantly and at the same time, it's a draw.

If say an 8 Gated user kills his opponent he wins.

 

[paratise]

Depends on motives and scenario, even though people treat battles like 1 vs 1 scenarios with no before and after story it never goes down like that.

Someone who is willing to sacrifice him/herself has a strong motive most of the time. In story and human mindset it is not just "i will live" if a character who sacrfice themself has another intent like "i wil protect ___ no matter the cost" which does not include his or her own certain survival it might as well count as victory in some ways.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

So, in a top 10 list, I'd put someone above another person if they could defeat them. But does dying just do defeat someone count as a win?

I'm bringing this up because of the top 10 lists with gai in them, even though saying minato/hiruzen > (place example here) because of RDS is another way to put it.

If someone is really stronger than another, they should be able to win without dying

It shouldn't count as a victory in a vs discussion, but you know NB is crolling with illogical fanboys and simply biased mother****ers. Having said that, I can see how it can count as a pseudo victory in the narutoverse, since it's all about objectives there. If for instance Gai's goal is to 'save' the shinobi world from Madara and ends up killing him by using Night Guy mode, then you can say he won since he achieved his objective and Madara didn't achieve his. So in that sense, it can be a victory. It is however completely illogical to go and put Gai above Madara in a top ten strongest list because he is clearly not stronger if he has to resort to suicide techniques, the reason you do that in the first place is coz you're weaker.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

Wrong.

Whatever technique I use, if it kills you in the process, I won the fight. I killed you.

If Sasuke used his last chidory to kill Naruto, but then ran out of chakra and died, would you call that a draw? No. Sasuke won. His technique caused the death of the opponent.

His technique caused the death of the opponent? And what cause him to run out of chakra? Is it not the opponents strength? So then, the opponents strength and endurance cause him to overuse his chakra and die? Then it's the opponents victory. See how flawed your logic is? This match is an obvious draw. The opponent's goal was to kill you, and you died because of him. How can you claim victory then? Your logic makes absolutely no sense. This scenario is an obvious draw. Plus, anyway that's not what the OP was refering to. He was talking about top ten list. Can a person who used a suicide technique be placed above the person he killed with it in a top ten list? The answer is an obvious no. You're not stronger than the opponent if you had to die to beat him. It's common sense. At the very best you are tied with him, at worse you are inferior coz you shouldn't have to use suicide techs to beat someone if you are stronger.

 

[Touken]

I do. In a hypothetical situation outside of the confines of the manga plotline, dying is losing, therefor a suicide technique is a loss or draw.

It just means the character wasn't powerful enough to win without killing himself.

I agree with the first part, just not the second. The fact that Gai/Minato/Hiruzen have the ability to kill someone that's leagues above them is an extremely useful ability considering no other shinobi can achieve this. It's true that they have to kill themselves in order to kill their opponent, but whatever technique they use is also a part of their arsenal. For example, the fact that Gai can actually open all eight Gates is a testament to his strength, and Minato/Hiruzen being able to use the Reaper Death Seal is a testament to their knowledge. I think it's more than just 'the character wasn't powerful enough to win without killing himself', especially since only three shinobi we know can do that.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

I agree with the first part, just not the second. The fact that Gai/Minato/Hiruzen have the ability to kill someone that's leagues above them is an extremely useful ability considering no other shinobi can achieve this. It's true that they have to kill themselves in order to kill their opponent, but whatever technique they use is also a part of their arsenal. For example, the fact that Gai can actually open all eight Gates is a testament to his strength, and Minato/Hiruzen being able to use the Reaper Death Seal is a testament to their knowledge. I think it's more than just 'the character wasn't powerful enough to win without killing himself', especially since only three shinobi we know can do that.

Four shinobi. You forgot Deidara. And whether it's part of their arsenal or not, their skill/knowledge or not, still doesn't change the fact that they had to die to kill the opponent. Think of it like this. If you Gai doesn't use the suicide technique and he fought Madara one on one, what happens to him? Yes, he dies, Madara kills him. So, because he is going to die anyway, he opens the eighth gate so that he can get a double ko. That's called a draw. By the way he still needed help from Minato, Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi to even get a shot even after opening the eight gate. One rinnegan Madara > Eight Gate Gai. Anyway, I'm drifting off topic. My point is, suicide tech can count as a victory on a larger scale plot orientated sense, like stopping a guy from destroying your village. Hiruzen's goal was to stop Oro from destroying Konoha, and he succeeding in his objective even if he died. Oro's objective was to destroy Konoha, and he lost to Hiruzen because Hiruzen stopped him from completing his goal. Fair enough. But does that mean that Hiruzen should be higher on a top ten list? No, pure garbage. The guy who uses the suicide technique is the one who knows that they are gonna die anyway. Hiruzen would have been stomped by Oro if he didn't use RDS, Gai would have been stomped by Madara if he didn't use a suicide technique (still got stomped). Those guys knew they were going to be defeated by the opponent and decided to try and double KO with a suicide tech. In a way, it is the same as admitting inferiority and even defeat, as a superior opponent will never resort to such a technique. Hiruzen and Gai would never use suicide tech on Konohamaru or Iruka cause they know they are superior, but they will against Oro and Madara coz they know they are inferior.

 

[FlyingRaijinLVL2]

The first person that goes down has lost in most cases.

 

[chaos control]

No. Suicide techniques can only lead to draws at best. Think about this:

If I push you to the point of suicide, did I not essentially kill you?

 

[chaos control]

Four shinobi. You forgot Deidara. And whether it's part of their arsenal or not, their skill/knowledge or not, still doesn't change the fact that they had to die to kill the opponent. Think of it like this. If you Gai doesn't use the suicide technique and he fought Madara one on one, what happens to him? Yes, he dies, Madara kills him. So, because he is going to die anyway, he opens the eighth gate so that he can get a double ko. That's called a draw. By the way he still needed help from Minato, Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi to even get a shot even after opening the eight gate. One rinnegan Madara > Eight Gate Gai. Anyway, I'm drifting off topic. My point is, suicide tech can count as a victory on a larger scale plot orientated sense, like stopping a guy from destroying your village. Hiruzen's goal was to stop Oro from destroying Konoha, and he succeeding in his objective even if he died. Oro's objective was to destroy Konoha, and he lost to Hiruzen because Hiruzen stopped him from completing his goal. Fair enough. But does that mean that Hiruzen should be higher on a top ten list? No, pure garbage. The guy who uses the suicide technique is the one who knows that they are gonna die anyway. Hiruzen would have been stomped by Oro if he didn't use RDS, Gai would have been stomped by Madara if he didn't use a suicide technique (still got stomped). Those guys knew they were going to be defeated by the opponent and decided to try and double KO with a suicide tech. In a way, it is the same as admitting inferiority and even defeat, as a superior opponent will never resort to such a technique. Hiruzen and Gai would never use suicide tech on Konohamaru or Iruka cause they know they are superior, but they will against Oro and Madara coz they know they are inferior.

Thank you!!!!! There were no flaws to this post!!!!

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

It is perhaps a matter of perspective.

1. A win is when your attempt to defeat/kill your opponent is successful.
2. A draw is when neither opponent can overcome the other, or if it both land a decisive blow.

A suicide attack could by it's very nature blur between both. Although, a suicide jutsu can be circumstantial in that you will lose without it; but on a plus it could be used to take out multiple opponents that you may be able to beat indevidually but not all at once.