[Discussion] Do you believe in the concept of wrong and right?

[November]

If You're Strong, You Live . If You're Weak, You Die
If You're Strong, You Win . If You're Weak, You Lose

 

[Jobrjo]

Lets abolish all the laws and legal systems then see who survives, I see where your comming from but boundaries have to be put in place.

If we are to get rid of the concept of right and wrong then we might aswell destroy society and live as animals in the wild.
Actually, the law and society is what keeps us in check, we're worse then animals and to me the most dangerous species alive.

That's the funny thing, you see.

Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)

 

[Uchiha Josephus]

If You're Strong, You Live . If You're Weak, You Die
If You're Strong, You Win . If You're Weak, You Lose

What if you're weak but smart?

 

[Sanguis]

If we are to get rid of the concept of right and wrong then we might aswell destroy society and live as animals in the wild.
Actually, the law and society is what keeps us in check, we're worse then animals and to me the most dangerous species alive.

Well that is why I have said something should replace wrong and right because I believe if we tried hard enough we could live by a better concept that would benefit humanity a lot more then what we have right now. My Progression and Delay concept is something I thought up that could be better, although I am still working on putting it in the right words so people don't get the wrong idea and get offended that is why I did not give an example in my first post.

 

[FitzChivalry Farseer]

We dont have to believe. either way it will still dictate our lives even if we didnt.

 

[Jobrjo]

That is what you are taught from birth, what you were raised to believe could be completely different if you had a different upbringing.

Haha, no sir. True, I was taught this. But, I'm not a person to accept what anyone says. Believe it or not, I questioned everything, unbeknownst to them even this day. And I resonated myself and arrived at that conclusion before it was introduced to me by others.

Now what I can tell you is this, I'm luckily to be born in the household I am, I undoublty would be different otherwise. However, while I may not be a Christian now (another thing that I have decided to do of my own will, because I saw it as a nessecity), my view on this wouldn't change, because it makes sound sense. Therefore, I'd probably live life with vain joy, and not care much about much anything else. Anyway, we're all gonna die, right? Might as well enjoy the ride before it's all done. Osama Bin Laden and Martin Luther King Jr. died the same. And if this is it, SO WHAT! They both get the same end result. So, IF this is it, then good sir, life is nothing but vanity.

I type/talk too much, I really do >.>

 

[Ninpou]

That's the funny thing, you see.

Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)

You see, not everybody thinks like that. Not everybody has your upbringing or is taught right and wrong. The definition of civil is based around the morals your agrueing. Your asuming there is a universal sense of right and wrong amoung humans but there isnt.

 

[November]

What if you're weak but smart?

Did You Think The Word "Weak" I Wrote Refer Only To Strength ? :|

 

[Jobrjo]

We dont have to believe. either way it will still dictate our lives even if we didnt.

Well, then the thing is this. If God exists, then there is a Heaven to seek and a Hell to shun. Buuuuuut, this thread =/= that, so, another discussion is for that. But tbh, everything really hinges on one ?: "Does God exist?"
...except your car color. I believe it could be red or blue, whichever you wish

 

[Talal]

That's the funny thing, you see.

Look at my and Uchiha Josephus arguments, they are sound. But, yet, despite the fact that morals have no reason and right to exist among us, like they don't with animals, they DO with us. None of us, at least the civil, would get together, kill everyone in a mall, take their money, and use it for our own good,. Heck, forget that. Why don't we just gather together and rob everything I want, kill witnesses. You know, as do I, that is wrong. But WHY is it? Read our previous arguments, it shouldn't be (if there is no God)? What does this mean? (I won't elaborate, because this thread isn't about the existence of God. But I can have a discussion with someone if they wish, privately.)

I really don't like the argument that you are making. We are different than animals we can see that stealing from someone is a bad thing. I don't need anyone to tell me that killing people is bad. What stops me from doing bad things isn't fear of punishment.

 

[Uchiha Josephus]

Did You Think The Word "Weak" I Wrote Refer Only To Strength ? :|

Wasn't trying to start an argument, just being sly

 

[shonu]

Right or Wrong eh? There are levels for Very Right or Kinda Wrong! Then there are situations where you should give considerations of right or wrong irrespective of what it appears at first instance...Also different people presume different situations as Right or Wrong..1 considers it right and the other considers it wrong! So its not as simple as it seems!!

 

[Jobrjo]

A universal concept of "wrong" and "right" needs to be established to benefit society as a whole. This is how we survive as a species.

The majority recognizes things such as murder, rape, causing harm to others physically/emotionally and greed are detrimental towards others. The majority recognizes that aforementioned actions fall under the category of "wrong". The majority agrees that such things should be outlawed.

What the majority demands, goes.

Of course there are certain things people disagree on such as homosexuality, the death penalty and abortion -- but these are things which are to blame on the desperate clinging to archaic beliefs and traditions. The concept of "wrong" and "right" itself has nothing to do with this; you cannot blame an idea based on what different individuals do with it, and then try to destroy it. Ideas will never be destroyed as long as there are people who hold onto them, and there will be. It is an essential factor in civilization, otherwise we would all regress to wild savages.

Trying to discard this concept is akin to destroying civilization itself.

Crimso Trickster, tell me, isn't it true that the majority has been wrong various times in history? No to mention, majority is relative. Family, City, Country, World? We all affect each other, but what one majority says is right is different from another. And what gives any man the right to say his is better. We're all men, none is greater than another.

And as for we having to be civil for our sustination, of course. But there is one problem, you see. Death. It happens. It is the unavoidable appointment we must all make. Yestderday, I went to the funeral of oen of my friends moms. He's in high-school, and had a wonderful mom, one who was very dear and kind to me as well. She was loved by so many, including myself. But guess what? NO matter what good she did, she's dead. It matters not. She is gone. ANythign she did here on earth matters not, if there is no eternity, for now she no longer exists. She is gone. And eventually, so will be everyone she helped. Rich, poor, weak, strong, smart, dumb, successful, wasteful, we all die. And when that happens, everything before does not matter, because, if there is no eternity, we are gone. All is vanity.

Seeing how we have so little time, and once we're dead, it supposedly matters not, then tell me why I should use that to help others, and not me. Moral obligation, I suppose? Now, why do we have moral obligation? What purpose is it? Tell me, please, who is that lawgiver? Why does the majority, whatever it is, matter? The majority's mind changes, and is subjective to what we reference. Even so the majority will die to. Why should we help one another, and not ourselves. SO what about ruin? Why do we even care about what happens, as long as we stay on top? If it's just us, then there is only one's opinion and wants vs anothers', survival of the fittest.

The fact is this. None of us would go through with that. Now why? Why is it? Because we have a heart. No man would say it's okay to kidnap a helpless child, because he wants a slave. But this life is temporal, we will all die. If so is the case, then why not attempt to enjoy it? Why live under the submition of those who are equal to myself? For their benefit?

But, if there is a God, then we have reason, cause, hope, fear, purpose, accountability, an eternity, and much more. It's because of this that Doreen's life mattered. It's because I know now she is in heaven, as are all those who are Christians unto deathhhhhh...... okay I'm gong off topic, sorry. I'm not saying I believe in the things previously said, I'm saying however that they make sense if there is no God.

 

[Jobrjo]

I really don't like the argument that you are making. We are different than animals we can see that stealing from someone is a bad thing. I don't need anyone to tell me that killing people is bad. What stops me from doing bad things isn't fear of punishment.

Can you show how we are if there is no God, ane if evolution is true? All we would be, is smarter animals. Why do we see it is wrong? What makes us different.

If there is a God, people = people.
If there is no God, people = smarter animals.

I do know there is a God, so it's not like I worry about doing those things, seeing what Eccl. 13:14 says. All I'm doing is laying out the facts, and questioning why they are the case, and then leaving people to make their own choice from there.

 

[November]

Life Sucks, Deal With It
We Get True Peace Only When We Die

 

[Scooby Doo]

Well I do believe in the concepts of right and wrong, but again, these are just concepts, different societies in diferent times, and different individuals have different concepts, so IMO there is no ultimate wrong or right...something is wrong for someone, and something (maybe that exact same thing) is right for another.

 

[Sanguis]

Crimso Trickster, tell me, isn't it true that the majority has been wrong various times in history? No to mention, majority is relative. Family, City, Country, World? We all affect each other, but what one majority says is right is different from another. And what gives any man the right to say his is better. We're all men, none is greater than another.

And as for we having to be civil for our sustination, of course. But there is one problem, you see. Death. It happens. It is the unavoidable appointment we must all make. Yestderday, I went to the funeral of oen of my friends moms. He's in high-school, and had a wonderful mom, one who was very dear and kind to me as well. She was loved by so many, including myself. But guess what? NO matter what good she did, she's dead. It matters not. She is gone. ANythign she did here on earth matters not, if there is no eternity, for now she no longer exists. She is gone. And eventually, so will be everyone she helped. Rich, poor, weak, strong, smart, dumb, successful, wasteful, we all die. And when that happens, everything before does not matter, because, if there is no eternity, we are gone. All is vanity.

Seeing how we have so little time, and once we're dead, it supposedly matters not, then tell me why I should use that to help others, and not me. Moral obligation, I suppose? Now, why do we have moral obligation? What purpose is it? Tell me, please, who is that lawgiver? Why does the majority, whatever it is, matter? The majority's mind changes, and is subjective to what we reference. Even so the majority will die to. Why should we help one another, and not ourselves. SO what about ruin? Why do we even care about what happens, as long as we stay on top? If it's just us, then there is only one's opinion and wants vs anothers', survival of the fittest.

The fact is this. None of us would go through with that. Now why? Why is it? Because we have a heart. No man would say it's okay to kidnap a helpless child, because he wants a slave. But this life is temporal, we will all die. If so is the case, then why not attempt to enjoy it? Why live under the submition of those who are equal to myself? For their benefit? I've rambeled on too long, and possibly confused people. I'm sorry. However, at this point, I have to go, so have fun guys! ^_^ Sorry for any confusion caused.

I enjoyed reading this.

 

[Jobrjo]

I enjoyed reading this.

...what is that supposed to mean :0 Good thing I guess? lol

Anyway, I'm going to make a quick edit to that post.

 

[chancek7]

Before I say anything, I just want to say that I only read the first post.

Right and wrong is all about perception and what you believe. We as people are programmed with ideas of what is right and wrong. We are programmed with the idea of humanity and morality. If you are an individual who thinks for yourself then you probably understand this. We are told, this is right, this is wrong, this is that, that is this. Think about it... The sky is blue, right? Why is it not red? The color blue is a MAN-MADE word to distinguish and associate objects. We as people have more programmed thoughts and ideas than we realize which includes the idea of what is right and wrong.

 

[Jobrjo]

Continuing my convo with Crimson Trickster,
Okay, I'm not going to respond point by point, I get what you're saying.
Basically you're saying (and please tell me if I misunderstood): That the "majority" has views on things. We have the right to do what we want, but if we go against the majority, then we reap the consequences.

That is my point.

Why does the majority have good views and bad. Why is it that is is a bad thing to kill. Why is it a good thing ti serve. Because of the majority's opinion, right. Why do we have this opinion. Throughout time, while the specifics have certainly changed, there's always been a particular good side and bad side. Why is it? From whence does morality come? Opinions have sources. I like KK donuts because they taste good. It wouldn't make sense to say I like KK donuts because I do. Same thing with There being a good side. It doesn't make sense to say there is a good side because the majority believes those actions to be so. Why does the majority believe those actions to be good or bad? What is the source of their opinion?