Do Sasuke fans HONESTLY think he's being reasonable?

[riley freeman]

It's not too reasonable but it makes sense, I don't know why people cant deal with it, it's not like kishi will make his ideal be right anyways

 

[so12p]

Silly rabbit, fanboys don't think, they fap.

 

[Zawerni]

The villages are already free from that darkness and have not only united in this war but have also had the opportunity to build up relations with one another. Sasuke just wants to put himself in power over other people, like Madara did.

The system Sasuke wasn't happy about was the way people who died for their village could be labelled as criminals, like what happened with Itachi. That was an issue he brought up when he was talking to Hashirama. Naruto knows Itachi wasn't actually a criminal either, that Itachi was doing what was necessary for the village. There's really no clash of beliefs as far as this system goes. I don't think Naruto is accepting of what happened with Itachi either.

 

[poopieface]

and what exactly is this old system?

Since you seem to be such an expert on the matter, can you please elaborate on all the ins and outs of this "old system," please?

I believe that, according to Sasukists, the old system is the one in which [insert people who aren't Sasuke] are in control.

I think he just said that he will kill,Kage to provoke naruto, after he is done with naruto he will b ok, first time Indra killed ashura ...he happy end of reincarnation

So he just wants to kill Naruto and not the Kage? To me that'd be even worse. Naruto is literally the person who has only ever helped people, including saving the world just now. He is GhandiJesus.

This, more realistic, way more realistic.
With his new action in place I'm starting to like him over Naruto.
Although I don't like his actions, they cool v.v

They're cool? What is more realistic about his "plan" as opposed to Naruto's? We haven't even heard Naruto's plan.

I think sasuke is more righteous right now than naruto.

I like the part where you explain the reason why a murderous psychopath is more righteous than Naruto.

It's not too reasonable but it makes sense, I don't know why people cant deal with it, it's not like kishi will make his ideal be right anyways

What I can't understand are the fanboys who actually believe in his ideals. Which is why I made this thread, to separate the mindless fanboys from the Sasuke fans who'll admit that he's being a little prick right now.

 

[poopieface]

Silly rabbit, fanboys don't think, they fap.

Lol then I suppose I'm trying to understand what they think while they fap...?

The villages are already free from that darkness and have not only united in this war but have also had the opportunity to build up relations with one another. Sasuke just wants to put himself in power over other people, like Madara did.

The system Sasuke wasn't happy about was the way people who died for their village could be labelled as criminals, like what happened with Itachi. That was an issue he brought up when he was talking to Hashirama. Naruto knows Itachi wasn't actually a criminal either, that Itachi was doing what was necessary for the village. There's really no clash of beliefs as far as this system goes. I don't think Naruto is accepting of what happened with Itachi either.

Exactly. If they woud only just have a freaking conversation. The fact that Sasuke can't think of any way to solve problems other than fighting makes him an immature little baby. His brother would be ashamed.

 

[Hubba Bubba]

Honestly, I don't think you should really question the character's motives. It makes absolutely no sense. You have a character who has been written to yet talk towards the majority of other characters civilly, swoop in, save the world, then state that he wants to get rid of the old system by killing other beings.

I strongly theorize that Kishi just wanted the next big bad antagonist to pop up (albeit, in such a contrived manner) to oppose the protagonist (to drag on the story, perhaps?) once again.

Don't bother with Sasuke fan-boys, either. What I've learned, lurking the forums this past year, is that the majority of them (including other fan-boys of different characters) don't include any form of logic when discussing why their fave is/isn't problematic.

 

[poopieface]

Honestly, I don't think you should really question the character's motives. It makes absolutely no sense. You have a character who has been written to yet talk towards the majority of other characters civilly, swoop in, save the world, then state that he wants to get rid of the old system by killing other beings.

I strongly theorize that Kishi just wanted the next big bad antagonist to pop up (albeit, in such a contrived manner) to oppose the protagonist (to drag on the story, perhaps?) once again.

Don't bother with Sasuke fan-boys, either. What I've learned, lurking the forums this past year, is that the majority of them (including other fan-boys of different characters) don't include any form of logic when discussing why their fave is/isn't problematic.

Bold: Very contrived indeed. Although I dislike the direction Kishi took with Sasuke's character just now (it made him wayyyy too psychopathy and incapable of learning or acknowledging the power of cooperation), that's a topic for a separate thread:

You must be registered for see links

This is just about whether people agree with the ideals that Kishi just shoved into Sasuke's character.

 

[Yeulia]

In my opinion, I think his intentions are pretty reasonable but his actions/way of tackling the issue isn't justifiable.

But then again his actions now is the result of all the government's leftover shit in the past. He's probably the most appropriate example of a helpless victim that was caught in between the twisted, dark, and dirty political fray and had no privilege of living an honest, laid back life that those who were uninvolved were given. I say you can't judge the Sauce for choosing this path he is trekking right now as he basically grew up as a child who had been stripped off of love and freedom in contrast to Naruto, who, in time, discovered them as he grew up. There's a complete difference between these two backgrounds, so I think it's just right for Sasuke to act like this as Kishimoto interpreted.

So honestly speaking, I like how Sasuke's being so far and I view the recent chapter as the last stretch for his character development but in all seriousness, I don't follow his ways of doing things since... I dunno, you said it yourself- his method of doing things is kinda bad. If you view Nagato that way as you said, then that's how some of us feel in regards to Sasuke's new Viva la Revolution.

 

[poopieface]

In my opinion, I think his intentions are pretty reasonable but his actions/way of tackling the issue isn't justifiable.

But then again his actions now is the result of all the government's leftover shit. He's probably the most appropriate example of a helpless victim that was caught in between twisted, dark, and dirty political fray and had no other choice on living his life as much as those who were uninvolved. I say you can't judge the Sauce for choosing this path, he basically grew up as a child stripped off of love and freedom as opposed to Naruto, who, in time, received them as he grew up. There's a complete difference between these two backgrounds, so I think it's just right for him to act like this as Kishimoto interpreted.

So honestly speaking, I like how Sasuke's being so far and I view the recent chapter as the last stretch for his character development but in all seriousness, I don't follow his ways of doing things. If you view Nagato that way, then that's how some of us feel in regards to Sasuke's character.

Except I don't try to justify Nagato's actions/intentions. And Nagato had a much rougher childhood than Sasuke. Not only was he caught in the middle of this "system" you guys keep talking about, but the Hidden Rain was caught in the middle of everyone's damn "systems". The only person to ever show him love and mercy was Jiraiya.

Sasuke also had a messed up childhood, what with his brother murdering his whole family, but after that, the village did everything to comfort him and protect him. He even had an apartment to himself lol. In return, Sasuke left and betrayed the village and spat on team 7's face. And keep in mind that at this time he didn't even know about Danzo's involvement. He was already misguided way before the truth came out.

You call him a "helpless victim caught in the middle"... I think it's safe to say Sasuke has never been helpless, not since he was throwing up fireballs at 5 years of age. And now he's one of the two strongest people in the world. Poor wittle Sasky, with his totally not haxxed eyes.

And finally, to the bold: Sasuke always had the same opportunities that Naruto had. They were both orphans who were put in the same team. They both had access to friends, a mentor (Kakashi), Hiruzen, and, you know, whatever. He could have made different choices, but instead was obsessed with revenge. He chose his path, and his path led to him capturing 8-tails chakra and helping bring about this whole war, both on Kabuto's and Obito's side.

 

[Nismo]

How so? You think that killing more people and expecting no retaliation is realistic?

Lelouch vi britania did it, the outcome was great.

 

[narutoblitz]

Not just reasonable but also righteous:

You must be registered for see images

Quoted for truth.

Sasuke is not just righteous, he's reasonable.

What happened to the Uchiha clan *was* injustice. It was the village's fault, undeniably. Even Hashi scolded his brother for persecuting the Uchiha after his death. Even Itachi acknowledged the village has its inconsistent nature. End of the day, Konoha caused a lot of this stuff. Obito was from Konoha, as was Madara. They were products of a corrupt village system installed by a well-meaning, but ultimately unqualified guy. Hashirama was childish and unfit to be leader.

Naruto, equally, is dumb. Naruto is dumb He is too stupid to be Hokage. He is too immature to be a leader. He is too young and unreasonable to lead. That said, so is Sasuke. Naruto has no plans for the future. Naruto has no answer to Pain's question. Naruto has no answer to stop the wars. He's just a naive kid in an orange jumpsuit.

Sasuke wants a revolution. Because he sees the problems inherent in the Ninja system.

Here's the spoiler:

Kakashi is going to agree with Sasuke about the state of their world. He'll see what really created Obito. Kakashi even agreed with Obito that the world as it is was messed up. Naruto has no answers, at least not yet. Naruto does not deserve to be hokage until he can answer Pain's question and win Sasuke over.

End of story. Naruto Uzumaki is unqualified to become Hokage.

 

[Draxus]

It isn't short sighted it's just how you look at it.

ok then, what's sasuke's plan after removing the old system?

 

[KillerbYo]

He is reasonable.

 

[Yeulia]

Hmm... I don't think you understood what I tried to convey. I'll try to rephrase stuff better, but before I begin please know that I'm not here to start a fight with you. I completely understand your POV though, despite having to disagree with a few things.

Except I don't try to justify Nagato's actions/intentions. And Nagato had a much rougher childhood than Sasuke. Not only was he caught in the middle of this "system" you guys keep talking about, but the Hidden Rain was caught in the middle of everyone's damn "systems". The only person to ever show him love and mercy was Jiraiya.

Even though you claim that Nagato had a rougher childhood than Sasuke, an unfortunate event is still an unfortunate event. Both Nagato and Sasuke, no matter what degree their past experiences were, has made it a point that it deeply affected their psyche in such a way that it impacts with their core characteristics. In the end it all settles down with differences- what may be a disaster for you may not be a disaster for me. In Kishimoto's perspective, a writer has this unspoken (yet very mandatory) responsibility to give a character (especially one that he has given an important role to play) a proper back story in order to validate his purpose for doing things that greatly affect the main plot. In this case, Sasuke,

Sasuke also had a messed up childhood, what with his brother murdering his whole family, but after that, the village did everything to comfort him and protect him. He even had an apartment to himself lol. In return, Sasuke left and betrayed the village and spat on team 7's face. And keep in mind that at this time he didn't even know about Danzo's involvement. He was already misguided way before the truth came out.

I actually do keep that in mind. Always. I don't know about you, but I don't think an introverted, family-oriented child who once lived in a complex with all his other kin whom he loved so much would be feeling miraculously better and optimistic after having one WHOLE 4-walled empty apartment all to himself and outsiders to deal with. You do know what a complex is, right? And since I take it that you like this manga, you must be aware that the Uchiha weren't really... as welcome as they seemed to be. You can actually see people talking bad about them from behind their backs. They even live in their own "settlement" so to speak. Even if Sasuke was welcome after the whole massacre thing, I doubt a boy coming from such a prideful clan would feel happy about people pitying him.

You call him a "helpless victim caught in the middle"... I think it's safe to say Sasuke has never been helpless, not since he was throwing up fireballs at 5 years of age. And now he's one of the two strongest people in the world. Poor wittle Sasky, with his totally not haxxed eyes.

This isn't about being helpless, it's about FEELING helplessness. If you payed attention to Sasuke's character as a whole (even if you're not a fan, this info is quite basic enough for you to know) then you should be aware that Sasuke's character is all about power. But it's not just power in general, he wants to feel it in his veins for every step he takes in life. This word has been his center since part 1 and it's even his favorite word. Power to avenge his clan, power to kill Itachi, power to test his limits, power to know his ground, power to defeat Naruto, power to protect his loved ones, power to crush the system... etcetera. As crazy as it sounds, that's how he was built.

And finally, to the bold: Sasuke always had the same opportunities that Naruto had. They were both orphans who were put in the same team. They both had access to friends, a mentor (Kakashi), Hiruzen, and, you know, whatever. He could have made different choices, but instead was obsessed with revenge. He chose his path, and his path led to him capturing 8-tails chakra and helping bring about this whole war, both on Kabuto's and Obito's side.

They may have had the same opportunities from the start (keyword from the start), but Naruto had a lot more coming for him. Don't forget that the reason why he left in the first place, and no it wasn't just because he wanted power, but it was because he was handicapped by the cursed seal in the first place. Remember the rules Kakashi set out for him to follow after they sealed Orochimaru's mark? I think you do.
Furthermore as I said, even though they were both orphans, their backgrounds weren't exactly the same. They have completely DIFFERENT lives, and you know that.

One huge difference is this: Sasuke CAME from having a family to NOT having one at all. Remember the time at VotE where he even told Naruto that he "didn't know how it was like to lose a family?"
Naruto on the other hand NEVER had a family/comrade/relationship to having LOTS of them as he grew up?
View it as you would a spectrum of colors. Sasuke goes from uphill to downhill, while Naruto starts from the latter.

And yes, he had one flaw and it's because he was bent on getting revenge. I agree with you that much. HOWEVER, I don't think it escalated to the point where he was obsessed with it, he merely loathed Itachi that much to want it. If he was obsessed with something, it would be power. And BECAUSE of the cursed seal, he couldn't live up to his best potential. Which led to frustration, to succumbing to the rivalry, to following Orochimaru, to... you know the rest.

 

[Yeulia]

Not just reasonable but also righteous:

You must be registered for see images

THIS. Just.... this. THIS. XD

 

[poopieface]

ok then, what's sasuke's plan after removing the old system?

There's no point. The grand plan to fix the shinobi world is to murder the leaders and rule by force, but no Sasuke fan wants to admit it.

 

[poopieface]

Quoted for truth.

Sasuke is not just righteous, he's reasonable.

What happened to the Uchiha clan *was* injustice. It was the village's fault, undeniably. Even Hashi scolded his brother for persecuting the Uchiha after his death. Even Itachi acknowledged the village has its inconsistent nature. End of the day, Konoha caused a lot of this stuff. Obito was from Konoha, as was Madara. They were products of a corrupt village system installed by a well-meaning, but ultimately unqualified guy. Hashirama was childish and unfit to be leader.

Naruto, equally, is dumb. Naruto is dumb He is too stupid to be Hokage. He is too immature to be a leader. He is too young and unreasonable to lead. That said, so is Sasuke. Naruto has no plans for the future. Naruto has no answer to Pain's question. Naruto has no answer to stop the wars. He's just a naive kid in an orange jumpsuit.

Sasuke wants a revolution. Because he sees the problems inherent in the Ninja system.

Here's the spoiler:

Kakashi is going to agree with Sasuke about the state of their world. He'll see what really created Obito. Kakashi even agreed with Obito that the world as it is was messed up. Naruto has no answers, at least not yet. Naruto does not deserve to be hokage until he can answer Pain's question and win Sasuke over.

End of story. Naruto Uzumaki is unqualified to become Hokage.

He is reasonable.

THIS. Just.... this. THIS. XD

The problem with justifying Sasuke's Infinite PMS on Konoha's volatile nature is that, besides being a stupid cop-out, what he's doing is exactly the same thing the people he hates did.

So, good old RIGHTEOUS Saucerman will end all war and put an end to Konoha's tendency to kill those who are a threat to its system...

by killing those he deems a threat to his new system.


Just brilliant. And obviously, to you guys, NARUTO is the retard. Sigh.

YES Konoha has ****ed up, and YES Hiruzen and Danzo have both already lost their lives. The current Kage have NOTHING to do with the Uchiha massacre, so please don't even bring that up.

Sasuke himself said it's not about revenge anymore:

You must be registered for see images

In other words, the "righteousness" you guys attribute to his retribution for the Uchiha is complete bogus. He just wants to rule his way and he doesn't care to hear what anyone has to say:

You must be registered for see images

 

[UzumakiRyu]

Wanting to kill the five Kage reasonable?
Wanting to kill Naruto reasonable?
Fill in the blanks

 

[poopieface]

Hmm... I don't think you understood what I tried to convey. I'll try to rephrase stuff better, but before I begin please know that I'm not here to start a fight with you. I completely understand your POV though, despite having to disagree with a few things.

I'm not here to fight either. I just don't agree with people feeling it's justifiable to want to murder world leaders just because they weren't perfect. By Sasuke's logic, every president in our real world should be killed. Obama is indirectly responsible for several thousands of deaths. How TYRANNICAL of him. /sarcasm. Also I'm sorry if sarcasm offends you or makes you think I'm trying to fight. It's just the way I talk lol

Even though you claim that Nagato had a rougher childhood than Sasuke, an unfortunate event is still an unfortunate event. Both Nagato and Sasuke, no matter what degree their past experiences were, has made it a point that it deeply affected their psyche in such a way that it impacts with their core characteristics. In the end it all settles down with differences- what may be a disaster for you may not be a disaster for me. In Kishimoto's perspective, a writer has this unspoken (yet very mandatory) responsibility to give a character (especially one that he has given an important role to play) a proper back story in order to validate his purpose for doing things that greatly affect the main plot. In this case, Sasuke.

Yeah... and? Sasuke already said he's not doing this for revenge, so his shitty childhood shouldn't be factored in. See my previous post.

I actually do keep that in mind. Always. I don't know about you, but I don't think an introverted, family-oriented child who once lived in a complex with all his other kin whom he loved so much would be feeling miraculously better and optimistic after having one WHOLE 4-walled empty apartment all to himself and outsiders to deal with. You do know what a complex is, right? And since I take it that you like this manga, you must be aware that the Uchiha weren't really... as welcome as they seemed to be. You can actually see people talking bad about them from behind their backs. They even live in their own "settlement" so to speak. Even if Sasuke was welcome after the whole massacre thing, I doubt a boy coming from such a prideful clan would feel happy about people pitying him.

Maybe the Uchiha as a whole weren't welcome, but post-massacre Sasuke was never treated poorly. Every single girl in the entire village wanted to hold his pre-pubescent genitals. I bring this up because this is indicative of the overall state of acceptance of the village.

In contrast, no one (including girls) approached Naruto because children's parents were wary of him, as being the demon fox boy. Therefore, it's safe to say that, since girls frequently approached Uchiha Sasuke, then there was no taboo surrounding him.

This isn't about being helpless, it's about FEELING helplessness. If you payed attention to Sasuke's character as a whole (even if you're not a fan, this info is quite basic enough for you to know) then you should be aware that Sasuke's character is all about power. But it's not just power in general, he wants to feel it in his veins for every step he takes in life. This word has been his center since part 1 and it's even his favorite word. Power to avenge his clan, power to kill Itachi, power to test his limits, power to know his ground, power to defeat Naruto, power to protect his loved ones, power to crush the system... etcetera. As crazy as it sounds, that's how he was built.


They may have had the same opportunities from the start (keyword from the start), but Naruto had a lot more coming for him. Don't forget that the reason why he left in the first place, and no it wasn't just because he wanted power, but it was because he was handicapped by the cursed seal in the first place. Remember the rules Kakashi set out for him to follow after they sealed Orochimaru's mark? I think you do.
Furthermore as I said, even though they were both orphans, their backgrounds weren't exactly the same. They have completely DIFFERENT lives, and you know that.

One huge difference is this: Sasuke CAME from having a family to NOT having one at all. Remember the time at VotE where he even told Naruto that he "didn't know how it was like to lose a family?"
Naruto on the other hand NEVER had a family/comrade/relationship to having LOTS of them as he grew up?
View it as you would a spectrum of colors. Sasuke goes from uphill to downhill, while Naruto starts from the latter.

And yes, he had one flaw and it's because he was bent on getting revenge. I agree with you that much. HOWEVER, I don't think it escalated to the point where he was obsessed with it, he merely loathed Itachi that much to want it. If he was obsessed with something, it would be power. And BECAUSE of the cursed seal, he couldn't live up to his best potential. Which led to frustration, to succumbing to the rivalry, to following Orochimaru, to... you know the rest.

I'm sorry I'm not going to address every single point here, but this thread isn't about his characterization. I have a separate thread for that which I mentioned in one of my previous posts here.

My point of contempt for this thread is not whether it's fathomable that Sasuke became the psychopath he currently is. My question is whether his fans agree with his current decision. I can see that you understand my POV but still find yourself very passionate about justifying his character, and you went to great lengths to do that (making your points eloquently) which I do admire and am +repping you for it

 

[Yeulia]

I'm not here to fight either. I just don't agree with people feeling it's justifiable to want to murder world leaders just because they weren't perfect. By Sasuke's logic, every president in our real world should be killed. Obama is indirectly responsible for several thousands of deaths. How TYRANNICAL of him. /sarcasm. Also I'm sorry if sarcasm offends you or makes you think I'm trying to fight. It's just the way I talk lol

No, it's okay! XD I'm quite used to it, Tumblr has it often too so it's something I can take in a good light (and otherwise guilty about as well lol)
Well I do agree with you on that point and we're on the same side. like I've been saying his reasons are alright but his methods aren't. Maybe those people who agree with Sasuke have their own personal issues with their own government irl or something of the sort? I mean, a person's statements do reflect their values and upbringing after all. Let them preach about Sasuke's dictatorship, they'll not have it their way anyway since Sauce ain't the protag. xD (btw I'm sorry if I sound like I'm over analyzing stuff... D: I'm a Psych major it's a bad habit)

Maybe the Uchiha as a whole weren't welcome, but post-massacre Sasuke was never treated poorly. Every single girl in the entire village wanted to hold his pre-pubescent genitals. I bring this up because this is indicative of the overall state of acceptance of the village.

In contrast, no one (including girls) approached Naruto because children's parents were wary of him, as being the demon fox boy. Therefore, it's safe to say that, since girls frequently approached Uchiha Sasuke, then there was no taboo surrounding him.

To me I think being treated poorly or not isn't the issue here(neither is the taboo), because it seems to me that a person with his kind of attitude wouldn't care about anything else that doesn't concern his family. People like him in real life exist, especially the withdrawn ones so I feel that it's fine/rather justifiable for him to have acted that way. But of course, it's not okay for him to continue doing so. If he were a real person, he'll need an awful lot of time at rehab. lol We need Naruto's TnJ ASAP XD

Yeah... and? Sasuke already said he's not doing this for revenge, so his shitty childhood shouldn't be factored in. See my previous post.

I read that too, but I somewhat disagree with it. I thought they were good points though. It's just the way your mind works, so even if we don't think the same wavelength you weren't wrong about it.
I'm actually the type of analyst that judges people (fictional or not) based on their past experiences; that's why I brought it up in the first place. I guess what I was trying to say is that it was all because of his past why he's such a flipping mess when it came to his decisions in the current timeline of the story. In my opinion, it makes sense how his overall view about life came to be if you take into account the things he has experienced during the course of the manga. Trauma is such an ugly thing. D:

But then again, we weren't talking about his characterization. xD Let's just leave it for some other time?

I'm sorry I'm not going to address every single point here, but this thread isn't about his characterization. I have a separate thread for that which I mentioned in one of my previous posts here.

My point of contempt for this thread is not whether it's fathomable that Sasuke became the psychopath he currently is. My question is whether his fans agree with his current decision. I can see that you understand my POV but still find yourself very passionate about justifying his character, and you went to great lengths to do that (making your points eloquently) which I do admire and am +repping you for it

No, really. I'm on your side on this one. I dislike the idea of Sasuke going Kim Jong-Un mode just as much as you. It was just my fangirl side taking over when I thought you might be hating on him. I just think he's a nicely rounded character, despite not being perfect. XD

And that's very nice of you to +rep me, I'm returning the favor as well. You were a very knowledgeable person to talk to and I think you know what you're fighting for- it really was a good argument and it was fun reading what you had to say even if we never saw eye to eye.