[Discussion] Difference between Yin/Yang Kurama

valandil988

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As the title says:

Can we discern any distinct differences in how Yin or Yang Kurama behave as "chakra" entities? I'm not talking about personality I'm talking about how the Yin and Yang "Power" behave.

So far from what I've seen the only damn difference is the colour as stupid as that sounds.

Really both Kurama's should have distinct traits in what their Yin/Yang power is capable of on its own

From what we know of what Kishi has defined Yin and Yang we know that:

Yang = physical power and vitality. The body.

Yin = Form and structure. Spiritual essence. The mind?

Overall it seems to me that Kishi just blatantly ignored these points.

-------------------------------------------------

Analysis of Yin and Yang Biju Mode:

We know why Naruto's Biju mode is the color it is and why its see "through". Because Yang Kurama lacks his Yin half which grants him form and structure he must rely on Naruto's Yin power to give him form. The reason for the inconsistent form that Kurama (flames bleeding of power) takes is Naruto's incompetence with visualization and perhaps his own chakra control. I believe Naruto has to "forge" Kurama's structure for him.


We have Minato's Biju mode:

In this case its the exact opposite problem, Kurama's Yin can create the form and structure of Biju mode but it lacks the Physical power to make the form complete. In this case Minato must supply the yang chakra to make manifest the form. This I believe is why they look different.

Overall Neither Biju mode is balanced because neither Naruto nor Minato have sufficient Yin or Yang to balance their Mode.

A more perfect mode would occur if Naruto and Yin Kurama preformed the same technique.

---------------------------------

WHY THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE:


  • We have seen Kurama manifest as fully skinned Kyuubi emerging from Naruto this should have been impossible. (during Pain arc)

    When Minato pulled out the Yin power of the Kyuubi and was still fully manifested and not a blob of formless energy and physical power. (During flashback of Naruto birth)

    Chakra is defined by physical and spiritual power. The physical is the body, the spiritual is the mind. Why does Yang Kurama have a mind?

    Why do they refer to Yin Chakra and Yang Chakra when its not "Chakra"??
If someone can explain why these four points do make sense. If you do I will rep you :p
 
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take it easy

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Imaginary Kurama anyone?



Yin = Form = Imagination = spiritual energy = Mind

Yang = vitality physical energy = Physical presence = Body
yin=only imagination and spiritual energy -=form from nothing
yang=vitality and physical energy=life for this form
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ObitoKarin

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I kind of see it like Avatar: The Last Airbender when the fire general removed that Yin Fish, I think it was yin.
After he removed it, the Yang fish went crazy which can symbolize mayhem or lack or order putting in perspective that the fishes just primarily swam in a circle.

Now, in light of Naruto's case it kind of clears it up because Yin can't take physical form without touching Yang, while Yang's action are based off of emotion rather than logic, most of the time. Overall to answer your questions,

I.) Naruto has Yang so it can manifest into full form without Yin, but it was completely off of emotion (Hinata's injury). Therefore, I believe Yin is not needed to complete the nine tails, but just to remove it's use of logic.

II.) When Minato pulled it out, the manifestation couldn't move or anything therefore, it technically had no physical in my opinion. So, it wasn't completely the nine tails in that instance.

III.) When I think of mind I think of logic and the nine tails doesn't really make his choices off of logic. I think primarily it's just emotions such as rage. It's a weak argument, but I'll stick to it.

IV.) I have to agree with you on this one, I'm still not clear on why only the nine-tails has a Yin and a Yang while the other tailed beasts don't. If Kishi addressed this with other tailed beasts, then I think it'd be clear.

These are all just my opinion based on what I've seen in the show so don't trust it complete :)

III.)
 
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valandil988

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only imagination and spiritual energy
It says right under that "He would create Shape and form" IE to create shape and form, You have to imagine it! You create a blueprint it needs a physical presence before you can say its real.

I don't understand what your pointing out. Its the same thing as I have said.

I kind of see it like Avatar: The Last Airbender when the fire general removed that Yin Fish, I think it was yin.
After he removed it, the Yang fish went crazy which can symbolize mayhem or lack or order putting in perspective that the fishes just primarily swam in a circle.

Now, in light of Naruto's case it kind of clears it up because Yin can't take physical form without touching Yang, while Yang's action are based off of emotion rather than logic, most of the time. Overall to answer your questions,

I.) Naruto has Yang so it can manifest into full form without Yin, but it was completely off of emotion (Hinata's injury). Therefore, I believe Yin is not needed to complete the nine tails, but just to remove it's use of logic.

II.) When Minato pulled it out, the manifestation couldn't move or anything therefore, it technically had no physical in my opinion. So, it wasn't completely the nine tails in that instance.

III.) When I think of mind I think of logic and the nine tails doesn't really make his choices off of logic. I think primarily it's just emotions such as rage. It's a weak argument, but I'll stick to it.

IV.) I have to agree with you on this one, I'm still not clear on why only the nine-tails has a Yin and a Yang while the other tailed beasts don't. If Kishi addressed this with other tailed beasts, then I think it'd be clear.

These are all just my opinion based on what I've seen in the show so don't trust it complete :)

III.)
Nice I like this. And in the spirit of the Manga I agree. What you say makes sense.

However with regards to Obito's statements about how the Sage created things from nothing it defined the basic nature of Yin and Yang. It states Yin as Form and Yang as life vitality, physical energy or presence. Really all I'm trying to say is that Kishi hasn't really defined this relationship exactly, or he has done it badly.

As for the question of why only Kurama seems to have Yin and Yang, this is untrue, all Biju have Yin and yang, they just haven't been split into Yin or Yang, they exist as true chakra not this wierd "Yin/Yang chakra" people talk about...

Here is another question why did Kurama shrink when Minato pulled out the Yin power? If as you say Yin governs the mind and how rational it is then why the heck would he shrink? Again bad representation by Kishi, why is does he run rough shod over his own concepts??
 
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take it easy

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Now, in light of Naruto's case it kind of clears it up because Yin can't take physical form without touching Yang, while Yang's action are based off of emotion rather than logic, most of the time. Overall to answer your questions,

I.) Naruto has Yang so it can manifest into full form without Yin, but it was completely off of emotion (Hinata's injury). Therefore, I believe Yin is not needed to complete the nine tails, but just to remove it's use of logic.

II.) When Minato pulled it out, the manifestation couldn't move or anything therefore, it technically had no physical in my opinion. So, it wasn't completely the nine tails in that instance.

III.) When I think of mind I think of logic and the nine tails doesn't really make his choices off of logic. I think primarily it's just emotions such as rage. It's a weak argument, but I'll stick to it.

IV.) I have to agree with you on this one, I'm still not clear on why only the nine-tails has a Yin and a Yang while the other tailed beasts don't. If Kishi addressed this with other tailed beasts, then I think it'd be clear.

These are all just my opinion based on what I've seen in the show so don't trust it complete :)

III.)
uchihas=yin and manga proved that uchiha=emo so yin -emotion
It says right under that "He would create Shape and form" IE to create shape and form, You have to imagine it! You create a blueprint it needs a physical presence before you can say its real.

I don't understand what your pointing out. Its the same thing as I have said.
this scan showed that yang energy give only life and breathing for this form, not body.
 
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Honord Sage

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Are not Angels and Demon Spirits? Is not God a Spirit? Have not Angles and God at time taken Human form? Yes, they have and are they not intellect? Yes, to all it seems that in modern School system curriculum Metaphysics is no longer explain otherwise you know the acer already.
 

valandil988

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Are not Angels and Demon Spirits? Is not God a Spirit? Have not Angles and God at time taken Human form? Yes, they have and are they not intellect? Yes, to all it seems that in modern School system curriculum Metaphysics is no longer explain otherwise you know the acer already.
You just reinforced my argument instead of putting it down as you intended. Angels and daemons or God as you say don't take physical form unless they wish to. But they still would "exist" as mental constructs etc.

Really I have no idea what your going on about. Tbh You come off as a bit mad....

uchihas=yin and manga proved that uchiha=emo so yin -emotion
this scan showed that yang energy give only life and breathing for this form, not body.
Sigh... Why do people turn these threads into inconsequential squabbles about pointless technicalities.

This isn't a thread about the technicalities of what chakra is.

In my definition which I like to believe is as close to the Manga's as I can interpret. Yang has physical power Ie physical presence, IT effects the world in a real sense. Yin however is much the same as someone imagining a story, it has no real effect on the world in a real sense, it has no physical presence.
 
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cptenn94

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WHY THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE:


  • 1. We have seen Kurama manifest as fully skinned Kyuubi emerging from Naruto this should have been impossible. (during Pain arc)

    2.When Minato pulled out the Yin power of the Kyuubi and was still fully manifested and not a blob of formless energy and physical power. (During flashback of Naruto birth)

    3.Chakra is defined by physical and spiritual power. The physical is the body, the spiritual is the mind. Why does Yang Kurama have a mind?

    4.Why do they refer to Yin Chakra and Yang Chakra when its not "Chakra"??
If someone can explain why these four points do make sense. If you do I will rep you :p
1. This is a bit problematic. But from what we can tell, it is due to the seal. Kurama(when naruto views him through the cage) is fully manifested(though still half size) It appears that kurama is different in Bijuu mode due to the seal.

With the tailed mode of naruto, that is due to kurama leaking out. It is when kurama has influence on naruto, rather than in bijuu mode where naruto has influence on kurama.

Ultimately there is not a clear explanation.

2. Because there is yang in yin, and yin in yang.

If you look at the yin yang symbol, you will see a white half with a black dot, and a black half with a white dot.

That sybolizes that in all yin, there is still some yang. And in some yang there is some yin.

So even though yang kurama was split from yin, he still has some yang in him. The same is true for yin kurama.

only maybe the tayuyas ghosts, are yangless(which is why they crave and need yang)


But ultimately you are misinterpretting the yin yang chakra.

Kurama PERIOD has a consciousness. Any part of his chakra, not matter how its divided will always have that same consciousness.

Also, yin chakra, is made from SPIRITUAL and MENTAL energies. Think haki from one piece. Yang is made from the bodies energy. It comes from the cells themselves.

They are not the mind and body of the bijuus. Just the energies.

Genjutsu and stuff uses a higher yang concetration of chakra than normal.


3. Yang kurama has a mind because the conciousness is in the CHAKRA.

Yin does not have anymore of a "mind" than yang.

Yin chakra is just the PRODUCT of MENTAL and SPIRITUAL energies. It is not the mind and soul itself.

Yang chakra is just the product of PHYSICAL and STAMINA energies. It is not the body itself.


So the only difference between yin kurama and yang kurama, is just that yang kurama gives out yang chakra, which boosts physical energy(allows for faster healing and such) and can affect things like zetsu. It is life giveing chakra.

Yin kurama would presumeably allow for its jin to cast stronger genjutsus, and perhaps even cause some liveing things to gain a conciousness(but mostly it would super turbo charge a uchiha)

(the above about yin kurama is just speculation)


4. Because it is chakra. Uchihas when they use eye techniques are useing YIN CHAKRA.

And naruto uses yang chakra with kurama.

When a ninja uses a ninja technique, they are also adjusting the yin and yang energies and ratios. Few ninjas ever use perfectly balanced chakra.

Some techniques such as genjustsu, use like 99% yin and like 1% yang( likely a overexageration)

And presumeably self healing techniques such as hashi, or naruto, use like 99% yang and 1% yin.

The only time yin and yang are not chakra, is when their energies are in the body and mind/soul.

As soon as a ninja collects those energies to use in battle, it becomes yin and yang chakra.

In the case of a bijuu, as the chakra is already collected, (and they are made out of it).




Im sorry for a long post. But I hope I may have been able to clear up a point or 2.
 
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Honord Sage

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Read Aristotle Metaphysics, Souls can Manifest physical form as an act of Will the Tail Beast are Souls and intellect capable of Physical Manifestation. Remember Einstein claim that Energy can't be destroyed only redirected the Tail Beast are Souls,Intellect and Energy that their Will redirect their actions.
 

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As the title says:

Can we discern any distinct differences in how Yin or Yang Kurama behave as "chakra" entities? I'm not talking about personality I'm talking about how the Yin and Yang "Power" behave.

So far from what I've seen the only damn difference is the colour as stupid as that sounds.

Really both Kurama's should have distinct traits in what their Yin/Yang power is capable of on its own

From what we know of what Kishi has defined Yin and Yang we know that:

Yang = physical power and vitality. The body.

Yin = Form and structure. Spiritual essence. The mind?

Overall it seems to me that Kishi just blatantly ignored these points.

-------------------------------------------------

Analysis of Yin and Yang Biju Mode:

We know why Naruto's Biju mode is the color it is and why its see "through". Because Yang Kurama lacks his Yin half which grants him form and structure he must rely on Naruto's Yin power to give him form. The reason for the inconsistent form that Kurama (flames bleeding of power) takes is Naruto's incompetence with visualization and perhaps his own chakra control. I believe Naruto has to "forge" Kurama's structure for him.


We have Minato's Biju mode:

In this case its the exact opposite problem, Kurama's Yin can create the form and structure of Biju mode but it lacks the Physical power to make the form complete. In this case Minato must supply the yang chakra to make manifest the form. This I believe is why they look different.

Overall Neither Biju mode is balanced because neither Naruto nor Minato have sufficient Yin or Yang to balance their Mode.

A more perfect mode would occur if Naruto and Yin Kurama preformed the same technique.

---------------------------------

WHY THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE:

  • We have seen Kurama manifest as fully skinned Kyuubi emerging from Naruto this should have been impossible. (during Pain arc)

    When Minato pulled out the Yin power of the Kyuubi and was still fully manifested and not a blob of formless energy and physical power. (During flashback of Naruto birth)

    Chakra is defined by physical and spiritual power. The physical is the body, the spiritual is the mind. Why does Yang Kurama have a mind?

    Why do they refer to Yin Chakra and Yang Chakra when its not "Chakra"??
If someone can explain why these four points do make sense. If you do I will rep you :p
From one perspective:

The Gedou Mazou has lifeforce (yang), but still, he had shape (yin).
The nine tailed beasts were demon spirits (yin, complements to the Gedou Mazou to form the Juubi), but Kurama could be divided into Yin and Yang. The beasts were used by Jinchuuriki (vessels, Yang) to reach balance.

So... everyone, always, had Yin and Yang, but while in some live beings the Yin was greater, in other live beings the predominant energy was the Yang energy. Naruto and Minato were the living proof of this fact.

From another perspective...

You must be registered for see images


If you divide the image into Yin and Yang, you'll notice that the result of the division will be:

A white drop with a little black dot, or a black drop with a little white dot.

So it doesn't matter how much you try to divide Yin from Yang, they'll always co-exist. There is no way to perfectly separate them, and the manga revolves about the possibility of "unbalance" them.

Just look... you even have the Sons of the Sage of Six Paths. The Elder had strong eyes and a common body, contrary to the Younger which had Strong body and common eyes...

:)
 
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valandil988

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@ cptenn94 + Hirudora:

Ahh I see thank you for both the posts those were real problems I had thinking about all this stuff. I was thinking in absolutes when considering Yin and Yang; when in actuality it can't be clean cut it always exists in a ratio. Just as in Pure chaos that chaos is an order in and of itself. And within pure order there can exist chaos between the rules.

Makes me wonder how the Sage managed to use pure Yin and Pure Yang when he created things...I really do understand now why what the sage did was different from normal ninja when it came to creating things. For example Hashirama could "create" wood is this not an example of Yin-yang release? Its why I always had trouble understanding what was so special about true Yin-yang release. Its about not being subject to the rule of Yin having Yang and Yang having Yin....So in essence you can create anything you wish and not be subject to the universe even in the small print....

Interesting. Thanks again I would rep you Hirudora but I can't anymore :p
 
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Transcendence

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If I'm not mistaken, every entity has both Yin and Yang regardless of composition. They can't exist without it. Each Yin dominant entity has complimenting Yang just on a lesser level, and vise versa for Yang with lesser Yin properties. If that weren't the case, chakra could not be formed, and there would be no techniques. There are just more Yin dominated people and Yang dominated people showcased in the manga. Hashirama is primarily Yang and Madara primarily Yin. He breathes life into form using his indomitable life force; and thus Mokuton. Madara manifests his own chakra (mind projection) into Susano'o, like Sasuke and Itachi did as well. Both Kurama entities exist as they are dominantly either Yin or Yang, but have a little bit of the opposite form to actual comprise a being.
 
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Gulvklud

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I believe you are all forgetting that Naruto & Minato have a humanoid bijuu mode, which is so different from anything the other Jin's have and gives Naruto the ability to detect evil intention, that there has to be more to it...

Personally im thinking that the reason is , it's the only other big difference between Naruto and Bee. (to name the most similar Jin)
 

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Spiritual energies doesn't equal yin chakra, it's the basis of yin chakra,in order to mold chakra you still need both physical and spiritual energies its just that yin chakra has more spiritual energies and yang has more physical energies
 

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@ cptenn94 + Hirudora:

Ahh I see thank you for both the posts those were real problems I had thinking about all this stuff. I was thinking in absolutes when considering Yin and Yang; when in actuality it can't be clean cut it always exists in a ratio. Just as in Pure chaos that chaos is an order in and of itself. And within pure order there can exist chaos between the rules.

Makes me wonder how the Sage managed to use pure Yin and Pure Yang when he created things...I really do understand now why what the sage did was different from normal ninja when it came to creating things. For example Hashirama could "create" wood is this not an example of Yin-yang release? Its why I always had trouble understanding what was so special about true Yin-yang release. Its about not being subject to the rule of Yin having Yang and Yang having Yin....So in essence you can create anything you wish and not be subject to the universe even in the small print....

Interesting. Thanks again I would rep you Hirudora but I can't anymore :p
There is no need for rep. I'm just happy enough to know that my post helped you a bit about the perspective I find most easy to explain.

But I have to admit, that is a hard question, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.
 
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