Did Kishi write off Madara because he couldn't think of a good way for him to lose fair n square?

[solorflare99]

This is my first discussion vid and was sort of a warm up for a video essay I'm working on.
This is a topic I have wanted to talk about since Naruto ended.
Madara had so much potential, and then the one time he is ready to go all out Kishi just had to have him get backstabbed. How convenient.
Madara at full power has
shadow clones
wood clones
limbo clones
regeneration
various forms of absorption
Six paths jutsu
Truthseeking Balls
Wood styles(even the 1000 arm buddha)
Limbo substitution(so basically teleportation)
10 tails powered Susanoo
A bunch of Hax
That's just some of what he shown. Then you got to think of what he hasn't shown. He has two MS abilities he never showed.
And at one point he showed that he could use Storm release. I'd Imagine he has access to a lot more Kekkai Genkeis.
So in summary, he has a lot more skill than Kaguya. Just look at Kaguya. Sure she has all that power, but she's wearing an entire circus tent. She's clearly not one to actually fight. Which makes sense she lived her entire life uncontested right up until being betrayed by her children. It's not like she has a training arc while sealed. Meanwhile Madara can do everything that his enemy can but more powerful besides a handful of jutsu. I explain myself far better in the video.
P.S. This isn't the battledome so feats aren't the priority here. There is room for speculation. That is what the discussion is for. I want to hear what you think.

You must be registered for see medias

 

[salamander uchiha]

Yes, Madara can't legitimately lose outside of deus ex machina.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Logically it's strange how people act like Kishimoto "didn't know how they could beat him" as if he even had to make him that strong to begin with. Nonetheless, One-eyed Madara was already getting bodied. Forced to retreat to regain his other eye after failing to steal Sasuke's.

To defeat Madara all they had to do was place their palms on him at the same time to activate the sealing. Beating Madara was never about overpowering him. The battle would be based more on tactics than power levels. Sasuke was already shown outsmarting him multiple times. Forming effective counter measures.

If the battle continued then teleportation could continuously dupe him, and Shadow Clones could stall Limbo, and dupe Madara aswell. Like how they did Kaguya at the end of their battle with Sasuke's teleportation.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Madara would get thrashed by Naruto & Sasuke in close combat, all of his Limbo clones(that are supposedly as strong as he is) got negged by a handful of Naruto's basic shadow clones, and his fastest jutsu recorded(Light Fang) was easily dodged. Sasuke is immune to IT and not even Sasuke's solo glance can harm Naruto, so genjutsu is also out of the question. People let the hype get to them and fail to realize that the majority of Madara's arsenal is nearly useless against Naruto and Sasuke. His only chance at winning is to rely on his Susanoo, which, at that point, had no feats beyond those of his previous forms.

How much his Susanoo will be strengthened by his chakra is the only question, but Sakura, nature energy, and some random asspulls from Obito & Kakashi could bridge the gap all the same. He definitely could have been dealt with.

 

[FemmeFatale]

The good way was a punch from Sakura but y’all would've been too triggered

 

[Avani]

Fair and square? Was he participating in some Olympic tournament? Since when conspirators, sneaky, power hungry warlords, or alien black goops who conspire for like 80 years in a cave or longer like a few generations start looking for fair fights? How did Madara himself deserve any "fair" fight while all the cheat codes and stolen cells and finishing off his own clan and conspiring death of his friend just because he couldn't handle his defeat? What herbs we are smoking here?

 

[solorflare99]

Logically it's strange how people act like Kishimoto "didn't know how they could beat him" as if he even had to make him that strong to begin with. Nonetheless, One-eyed Madara was already getting bodied. Forced to retreat to regain his other eye after failing to steal Sasuke's.

To defeat Madara all they had to do was place their palms on him at the same time to activate the sealing. Beating Madara was never about overpowering him. The battle would be based more on tactics than power levels. Sasuke was already shown outsmarting him multiple times. Forming effective counter measures.

If the battle continued then teleportation could continuously dupe him, and Shadow Clones could stall Limbo, and dupe Madara aswell. Like how they did Kaguya at the end of their battle with Sasuke's teleportation.

When Madara has all the advantadges he has, you can only expect him to lose by being dumbed down and nerfed.
Sasuke's teleportation couldn't defeat him when they had the element of surprise and he wasn't even at full strength you really think it's going to be done when he has already seen it multiple times and is even stronger?
The fact that it wasn't about powerlevel and more about tactics is precisely my point. Madara has more tactics then Kaguya thus has a better chance.

Fair and square? Was he participating in some Olympic tournament? Since when conspirators, sneaky, power hungry warlords, or alien black goops who conspire for like 80 years in a cave or longer like a few generations start looking for fair fights? How did Madara himself deserve any "fair" fight while all the cheat codes and stolen cells and finishing off his own clan and conspiring death of his friend just because he couldn't handle his defeat? What herbs we are smoking here?

You're way too focused on the terminology and not the point of the discussion. When I say "fair and square" I'm talking about Madara not being dumbed down and nerf for the sake of the protagonist victory.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Madara would get thrashed by Naruto & Sasuke in close combat, all of his Limbo clones(that are supposedly as strong as he is) got negged by a handful of Naruto's basic shadow clones, and his fastest jutsu recorded(Light Fang) was easily dodged. Sasuke is immune to IT and not even Sasuke's solo glance can harm Naruto, so genjutsu is also out of the question. People let the hype get to them and fail to realize that the majority of Madara's arsenal is nearly useless against Naruto and Sasuke. His only chance at winning is to rely on his Susanoo, which, at that point, had no feats beyond those of his previous forms.

How much his Susanoo will be strengthened by his chakra is the only question, but Sakura, nature energy, and some random asspulls from Obito & Kakashi could bridge the gap all the same. He definitely could have been dealt with.

Let's look at this from a logical stand point. Madara at base is stronger than Naruto and Sasuke at Base. The guy was blind and casually dealt with SM Naruto and was able counter Amateratsu. Then you take a power boost that covers both Naruto and Sasuke combined and beyond. Yet you think they would thrash him?
Mokuto made Hashirama looked to as god, Madara with a Bijuu made him his rival. You have all that in one and now he's just some guy who can get beat up by two teenagers with similar power ups. All of his prior experience as a ninja just thrown out the window? That's what I'm talking about. If Madara was someone that wasn't very skillful or smart in battle then I would get what your saying, but Madara was someone that was nearly always in control. If Naruto and Sasuke were so eady to beat him how come they couldn't do it when he was weaker with one eye. Really think about all that Madara is capable of. Deva path could destroy an entire village by himself. Imagine what the 10 tails jinchuriki could do. This isn't the battle dome so I don't care about what feat are shown. I'm talking about what Kishi didn't show because it would be too overwhelming for the protagonist to win. What you fail to realize is that most of what you think Naruto and Sasuke have to overwhelm Madara, Madara can do and then some.

 

[Chikombo]

Kishi tried to kill Madara but Madara complained so he couldn't do it.
true story.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Let's look at this from a logical stand point. Madara at base is stronger than Naruto and Sasuke at Base. The guy was blind and casually dealt with SM Naruto and was able counter Amateratsu. Then you take a power boost that covers both Naruto and Sasuke combined and beyond. Yet you think they would thrash him?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Because they have done so already. You're too focused on hype and it's obscuring the facts. Blind Madara had SM amplifying his reactions, Hashirama's cells, and some amount of Rikudo chakra flowing through him going by the fact that he still had the ability to absorb ninjutsu. Keep in mind that even trace amounts of Rikudo chakra gave Kakashi the ability to use a PS and abilities that shat on Kaguya. We don't actually know how strong his base form is at this point, but we do know that Naruto and Sasuke could thrash his ass once they got powerups of their own.

Mokuto made Hashirama looked to as god, Madara with a Bijuu made him his rival. You have all that in one and now he's just some guy who can get beat up by two teenagers with similar power ups. All of his prior experience as a ninja just thrown out the window? That's what I'm talking about. If Madara was someone that wasn't very skillful or smart in battle then I would get what your saying, but Madara was someone that was nearly always in control.

What do you even mean by skilled though? Of course Madara is skilled, that's a prerequisite to get screen time to begin with(Choji, Ino, Sakura, Sasuke, all skilled). The emphasis is only relevant if that skill has an active bearing on fights like Naruto's cleverness to disguise clones as rocks or Itachi's ability to effortlessly find solutions. It's just a label to highlight some distinguished ability like Sakura's chakra control otherwise.
Madara has only ever shat on opponents weaker than him, and never shown any amazing tactics against enemies that could actually fight back. His understanding of jutsu is pretty high though. He just turtled against Gai(granted that he had no interest in maiming Gai) and didn't perform anything special(I'm using this word relative to Sasuke since the word special is also vague-ish anime) against Hashirama from the little we've seen.

If Naruto and Sasuke were so eady to beat him how come they couldn't do it when he was weaker with one eye. Really think about all that Madara is capable of.

Because he ran to the Kamui dimension immediately after substituting himself with a Limbo clone. The only reason Madara even had the opportunity to take Kakashi's eye is because they weren't aware of his ability to substitute himself with Limbo.

Deva path could destroy an entire village by himself. Imagine what the 10 tails jinchuriki could do. This isn't the battle dome so I don't care about what feat are shown. I'm talking about what Kishi didn't show because it would be too overwhelming for the protagonist to win. What you fail to realize is that most of what you think Naruto and Sasuke have to overwhelm Madara, Madara can do and then some.

The paths were Nagato's specialty. Since he grew up using them, he had more efficient usage of them and they were heavily incorporated into his combat because of the fact. Besides, it's a question mark if Madara can offhandedly use Shinra Tensei. In spite of having the prerequisites, it's similar to expecting Sasuke to use Rasengan or CES because the situation calls for it.

 

[solorflare99]

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Because they have done so already. You're too focused on hype and it's obscuring the facts. Blind Madara had SM amplifying his reactions, Hashirama's cells, and some amount of Rikudo chakra flowing through him going by the fact that he still had the ability to absorb ninjutsu. Keep in mind that even trace amounts of Rikudo chakra gave Kakashi the ability to use a PS and abilities that shat on Kaguya. We don't actually know how strong his base form is at this point, but we do know that Naruto and Sasuke could thrash his ass once they got powerups of their own.

What do you even mean by skilled though? Of course Madara is skilled, that's a prerequisite to get screen time to begin with(Choji, Ino, Sakura, Sasuke, all skilled). The emphasis is only relevant if that skill has an active bearing on fights like Naruto's cleverness to disguise clones as rocks or Itachi's ability to effortlessly find solutions. It's just a label to highlight some distinguished ability like Sakura's chakra control otherwise.
Madara has only ever shat on opponents weaker than him, and never shown any amazing tactics against enemies that could actually fight back. His understanding of jutsu is pretty high though. He just turtled against Gai(granted that he had no interest in maiming Gai) and didn't perform anything special(I'm using this word relative to Sasuke since the word special is also vague-ish anime) against Hashirama from the little we've seen.

Because he ran to the Kamui dimension immediately after substituting himself with a Limbo clone. The only reason Madara even had the opportunity to take Kakashi's eye is because they weren't aware of his ability to substitute himself with Limbo.

The paths were Nagato's specialty. Since he grew up using them, he had more efficient usage of them and they were heavily incorporated into his combat because of the fact. Besides, it's a question mark if Madara can offhandedly use Shinra Tensei. In spite of having the prerequisites, it's similar to expecting Sasuke to use Rasengan or CES because the situation calls for it.

Actually Blind Madara brushed off Amateratsu and blitzed SM Naruto before going into SM. Regardless if his old base was amped by a little bit of Rikudo chakra, it would still be his new base. Power he had without the rinnegan or as a jinchuriki. Also we don't know if that chakra absorption was Preta path or just another chakra absorption. It's not like preta is the only way to absorb chakra. Zetsu's absorb chakra, the was that one random sound ninja that sasuke fought in the CE that could absord chakra.

Sasuke cut Madara in half but did he actually care. You can't just take stuff out of context and then claim they "thrashed him". He need not bother in defending himself when his only motive is to get away and get his other eye. He outplayed them, it's as simple as that. You put Naruto and Sasuke on this high pedestal when it's actually Madara who was successful. He accomplished his goal and used IT. Once he achieved that, it was only then he'd actually focus and go all out(coincidentally the same moment he got back stabbed.) It isn't just hype, it's about if he is actually capable of living up to that hype. Giving what he shown prior I'd say yes. Naruto summons shadow clones to stop limbo clones. What is to stop Madara from making shadow clones of his own? The guy made a shadow clones so good, it tricked the inventor of shadow clones into the thinking it was a real corpse. What's stopping him doing these thing is that the protagonist can't lose. Also what you aren't taking into context is when they "thrashed" him yet failed to seal him, he wasn't even at full power. Take into context that
1 his main focus wasn't the battle
2 he wasn't even at full power
and then maybe you'll see why that isn't a good reference to say the would have undoubtedly beat him.

He fought Hashirama until they were both at their breaking points what do you mean he has only fought enemies weaker than him. You didn't see what Madara was like growing up. I doubt it was a cake walk especially with the senju clan around. He completely toys with his opponents because he is always a step ahead. Madara can see through shadow clones. Who else can do that(maybe sasuke with his rinnegan, but that is yet to be seen)? He's seen a lot more action than the ninja of naruto's era. He's was a prodigy and the leader of the Uchiha clan during a time where violence was at a high. You are really downplaying Madara trying put him amongst Choji and Sakura. The guy took one look at the Gedo Mazou's arm and knew it was a sharing that warped it away. While fighting sasuke blind he knew what kind of Sharingan he had. WHat do you think Naruto and Sasuke have that could Surprise him. The closest thing was the teleportation, but Sasuke had used it multiple times already. Madara had no problem using the paths when he was revived. Just stop it. He throws around meteors like they was a bargain. You really think Madara's not going to know how to effectively use his own eyes. He stole Kakashi's eye and knew how to use it immedialetly. You're just downplaying Madara to justify Kishi nerfing him. I love Naruto, but I'm gonna call it how I see it. I'm not going to be blind faith having fan boy that just accepts everything as it is. Kishi wrote himself into a corner with how powerful he made Madara. He had no choice but to dumb him down or have him let his guard down and get back stabbed. Actually he did have a choice. He could have wrote a situation that Madara can go all out and The protagonist the beat the unbeatable odds. Ultimately I'm just disappointed Kishi went the easier route.

Also if your looking for evidence that Kishi did have something instore for defeating Madara and had hopes in having Madara actually go down in battel. Then recall when Sasuke spoke to Hashirama before leaving to figh Madara.

You must be registered for see links

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Actually Blind Madara brushed off Amateratsu and blitzed SM Naruto before going into SM. Regardless if his old base was amped by a little bit of Rikudo chakra, it would still be his new base. Power he had without the rinnegan or as a jinchuriki.

His base(he wasn't even base, he had SM activated) was amped by much more than a bit of Rikudo chakra and it matters because Naruto and Sasuke had gotten the very same things that were flowing through him. Sasuke had gotten Hashirama's cells and Rikudo power, then Naruto had gotten Rikudo chakra.

Also we don't know if that chakra absorption was Preta path or just another chakra absorption. It's not like preta is the only way to absorb chakra. Zetsu's absorb chakra, the was that one random sound ninja that sasuke fought in the CE that could absord chakra.

Pretapath is literally the only jutsu we've seen him use to absorb jutsu, so you'd need proof to say it was anything else. There's already a basis for Madara using ocular techniques without his eyes because of when he used Susanoo.

Sasuke cut Madara in half but did he actually care. You can't just take stuff out of context and then claim they "thrashed him". He need not bother in defending himself when his only motive is to get away and get his other eye. He outplayed them, it's as simple as that.

It's not at all out of context. Madara was willing to go the lengths of using Limbo to avoid a strike from Sakura and minor bruises from Naruto, so it's safe to assume he'd rather not get injured let alone split in half. If he could have avoided it, he would have as he'd done the previous times.

You put Naruto and Sasuke on this high pedestal when it's actually Madara who was successful. He accomplished his goal and used IT. Once he achieved that, it was only then he'd actually focus and go all out(coincidentally the same moment he got back stabbed.)

I can agree with this.

It isn't just hype, it's about if he is actually capable of living up to that hype. Giving what he shown prior I'd say yes. Naruto summons shadow clones to stop limbo clones. What is to stop Madara from making shadow clones of his own? The guy made a shadow clones so good, it tricked the inventor of shadow clones into the thinking it was a real corpse.

The fact that Limbo clones are literally the exact same strength as Madara. His shadow clones would be much, much weaker, whereas Naruto's clones can still fight Limbos implicating that Naruto's shadow clones would stomp out Madara's shadow clones.

What's stopping him doing these thing is that the protagonist can't lose. Also what you aren't taking into context is when they "thrashed" him yet failed to seal him, he wasn't even at full power. Take into context that
1 his main focus wasn't the battle
2 he wasn't even at full power
and then maybe you'll see why that isn't a good reference to say the would have undoubtedly beat him.

Hype. The failure to seal Madara had literally nothing to do with him being overwhelming or anything of the sort, and his two Rinnegans either did too little or nothing to bump up his taijutsu & physical stats. A few of Naruto's clones stomped Madara's limbos to the extent of literally restraining them altogether. This is why I say his only hope is Susanoo.

He fought Hashirama until they were both at their breaking points what do you mean he has only fought enemies weaker than him.

I pointed that out already. Until Naruto and Sasuke appeared, Madara had only fought 2 characters that were stronger than him. You're missing why I pointed it out though. When up against stronger foes, you can actually see how skilled characters are because they're typically more resourceful(Itachi vs Nagato, Naruto vs Pein, Naruto vs Kaguya) with what relatively little they have against their enemy. Madara hasn't shown that resourcefulness, so I don't give him that skill out of hype.

You didn't see what Madara was like growing up. I doubt it was a cake walk especially with the senju clan around. He completely toys with his opponents because he is always a step ahead. Madara can see through shadow clones. Who else can do that(maybe sasuke with his rinnegan, but that is yet to be seen)? He's seen a lot more action than the ninja of naruto's era. He's was a prodigy and the leader of the Uchiha clan during a time where violence was at a high. You are really downplaying Madara trying put him amongst Choji and Sakura.

Hype.

WHat do you think Naruto and Sasuke have that could Surprise him. The closest thing was the teleportation, but Sasuke had used it multiple times already. Madara had no problem using the paths when he was revived. Just stop it. He throws around meteors like they was a bargain. You really think Madara's not going to know how to effectively use his own eyes. He stole Kakashi's eye and knew how to use it immedialetly. You're just downplaying Madara to justify Kishi nerfing him.

You have a point there especially with the eyes. There's a high chance of him having an obscenely large Shinra Tensei.

I love Naruto, but I'm gonna call it how I see it. I'm not going to be blind faith having fan boy that just accepts everything as it is. Kishi wrote himself into a corner with how powerful he made Madara. He had no choice but to dumb him down or have him let his guard down and get back stabbed. Actually he did have a choice. He could have wrote a situation that Madara can go all out and The protagonist the beat the unbeatable odds. Ultimately I'm just disappointed Kishi went the easier route.

Also if your looking for evidence that Kishi did have something instore for defeating Madara and had hopes in having Madara actually go down in battel. Then recall when Sasuke spoke to Hashirama before leaving to figh Madara.

You must be registered for see links

Plausible. Madara getting stabbed in the back is 100% him being dumbed down and he'd already managed to thwart Sasuke's own attempt at it. I think I see what you're getting at. In a way, it does seem that Kaguya was never meant to be the final villain because of how the pieces add up.
Hagoromo and Hamura conveniently didn't know of their mother being the Juubi. Black Zetsu somehow managed to convince Madara that he was his will. How is that even possible? It'd require him to fool Madara into thinking Black Zetsu were his jutsu. The zetsu & IT thing doesn't align much either. Hagoromo could apparently reverse IT, yet 100,000 people managed to be trapped in it for years in order to be turned into Zetsu. Surely he saw the light and vines everywhere and knew something was up immediately rather than years later.

Overall I agree that unnerfed Madara could stomp out Naruto and Sasuke, and give more validity to the thought that Kishimoto couldn't create a "fair and square" situation where Madara loses. I still think that some amount of asspulls could end up in a victory though.

 

[Avani]

You're way too focused on the terminology and not the point of the discussion. When I say "fair and square" I'm talking about Madara not being dumbed down and nerf for the sake of the protagonist victory.

If he is NOT dumbed down then what's the issue?

If you mean he was dumbed down - in his case it was a matter of arrogance and not watching his back in the end- something he always was afraid of. His mistake was never questioning existence of Black Zetsu. In his eagerness for new power he simply accepted BZ to be an extension of his "will" and became careless. Served him just right. He earned that ending.

 

[Lukecetion]

Kishimoto had two issues with Madara:

1. Madara was stupidly powerful when compared to the rest of the character.
2. Madara's place in the story.

The first is less of a problem and just more of a challenge to write around. The second is more the problem here and it all goes back to how Kishimoto writes stories. Which we can see in both the original Naruto Oneshot and in the new Samurai 8 manga written by him. Kishimoto at the core isn't a writer of logic and realistic settings about a controlled and explained world like Tolkein was with Middle-Earth. Kishimoto is a writer of philosophy and emotion which is why his stories is filled with so much inconsistencies and "power of friendship".

A battle in his writing is less about power and more about the will and emotion behind those fights, the philosophy behind them in other words. Madara in the earlier parts of the story didn't serve much a reason in it other than to be a "previous version" of Sasuke. When he was more fleshed out his purpose became far more clear. (And yes, this is a personal opinion.) When we meet old-man Madara he has entirely given up on the world and sees no other way other than to completely tear it down and rebuild it. He symbolizes the very notion that change is not possible and that you just have to start from scratch.

This is the complete opposite of Naruto and Sasuke who symbolizes change and the future. Madara symbolized a what if scenario in the story. That is why you couldn't talk him out of it and why he seemingly didn't care anymore, because he had already given up. In this very notion lies a common trait that people have. Humans have but one piece of nature that remains the reason we are at the top of the food chain. We absolutely refuse to give up no matter what, its built into our DNA. Madara would never give up, he would never stop no matter you said to him. As Nagato was the physical embodiment of Pain, Madara was the physical embodiment of obsession.

He obsessed over protecting his brothers, his clan, his power, his goals and finally his dream. He obsessed to such a degree that he was entirely unable to accept that he couldn't do it. Though if you couldn't talk him out of it, why not just kill him off? Well sure that would work in logical terms, but it wouldn't serve a purpose in the story. For the sake of Madara, he couldn't lose to anyone, he couldn't fail in his goal, he had to succeed and there was only one for him to lose. In the end Madara had to lose to himself, to his own obsession in order to bring home a single message.

That obsession leads to blindness and blindness leads to a halt in progress. In the end Madara lost because he believed himself unbeatable which he did because he obsessed over the idea that "only I can save the world" and in the end the one to bring an end to him was Zetsu, a physical embodiment of his own power in his eyes. Had Madara lost to Naruto and Sasuke then it would just mean he was wrong and that power is the only important thing in the world. Though with him losing to himself they show that it isn't power that is important, but an outward perspective of the world.

This is also the concept of Ninshu and its also what fuels both Naruto and Sasuke's ideals during their final battle. Sasuke doesn't think he can change the world by himself as much as he thinks himself as the reason for the world needing to change itself. Naruto doesn't believe he can change the world himself as much as he thinks himself as the guide to show the world that it can change itself.

Too Long: Didn't Read
In the end Madara had to lose to himself, as losing to Naruto and Sasuke would ruin his place in the story as a device to show that obsession and refusal of the world isn't the answer to change.​

 

[wanderingcactus]

Kishimoto suffers from asspulls. With good reasons.
He hasn't had a decent break and in constant demand.
With wide criticism from both his fanbase and his editors, there's not a lot of things he can do and worry about.
So plotholes are absolutely going to be prevalent.

With that being said, Madara suffered from balancing issues. It is important to make him godlike and Kishimoto truly succeeded in doing so. However, the main issue is that he must be defeated. How?
The easy answer is to have 2 godlike beings (demigods, really) that are already present in the story: Naruto and Sasuke.
Due to the symbolism, they are 2 halves of a whole whereas Madara is the entire thing.

Meaning that what you have is a 1 v 1 or .5 + .5 v 1.
Sure Obito was there too and he has the same power as Madara but during Madara's full power, that godlike powers was simply transfered.

Had it not, Obito had far superior powers than Madara, but he has experience over Obito. That would be a well balanced fight.

Naruto and Sasuke vs Madara is VERY unbalanced. That is why there are so many discrepancies during their feats.
You have a blitzing Naruto (Chakra Mode) that was put into a screeching halt just after unlocking Kurama Mode (which is better than his seal Chakra Mode). Not only was his speed negated after he "teleported" to swat all those bijuudamas, Sasuke was given a massive powerup (this one is well balanced at least as it is swapping and not pure teleportation)

With a nerfed blitz speed Naruto and a swapping teleporter Sasuke, there's no way they can keep up with Madara as he is essentially broken compared to those 2. Which means that even at combined strength of Naruto and Sasuke, it is not a level playing field.

I suppose that you can argue that the reason Naruto looks like he had been nerfed was solely due to the scaling.
If you have two incredibly fast objects travel along side each other, the perception of speed in respect to those objects is very normal if not slow.

If that were the case, then Sasuke swapping instantaneously shouldn't appear instantaneously to Madara and Naruto.

Madara, much like Obito, is too powerful for Sasuke and Naruto to deal with as their powers have been established and they are completely below theirs to emphasize the underdog theme and that Obito and Madara are godlike.

It is simply due to being poorly written, with good reason. Kishimoto was overloaded with work, he had to write 2 movies, oversee them and make sure that they don't reveal anything in the main story that can give clue to what his movies are going to be (Kaguya and/or Naruto not having Tenseigan, etc. or Toneri and the other moon clans joining the fight in the alliance)
Seriously, with the timeline, Moon Clan intervention should have happened by the time of Naruto has started. (With gedo mazou, or Kaguya's body, missing, they went to war. Finished with the war and gone to Earth to help aid them)

Post automatically merged: Aug 12, 2019

Too Long: Didn't Read
In the end Madara had to lose to himself, as losing to Naruto and Sasuke would ruin his place in the story as a device to show that obsession and refusal of the world isn't the answer to change.​

Agreed but I think ultimately Kishiomoto just threw in the towel. Because Kaguya is the FINAL boss and she was just unimpressive. (I mean Kishimoto is known to be a very "traditionalist" person often going with the damsel trope)
But still even with the whole "women are meant to be ladies and men are gentlemen and shouldn't let ladies do anything" it is ridiculous to have her as the final most powerful boss and not do anything is worth to be feared over.

Sure, Kaguya was meant to be this good goddess that just went insane after eating the tree OR that she had to use her power to subjugate people misusing their powers and that gave her a bad reputation BUT the fact of the matter is that Kaguya is this deviless. All of a sudden she's basically this useless punching bag.

 

[Animegoin]

His base(he wasn't even base, he had SM activated) was amped by much more than a bit of Rikudo chakra and it matters because Naruto and Sasuke had gotten the very same things that were flowing through him. Sasuke had gotten Hashirama's cells and Rikudo power, then Naruto had gotten Rikudo chakra.

No offense but you sound dumb . Freshly Rinne-tensei resurrected blind Madara (prior to stealing Hashirama’s Sage Mode) paralyzed Hashirama via the rods, then proceeded to blitz through Sage Mode Naruto and Sai with no difficulty at all.

Everything else you talked about in every post you’ve made on this topic just further proves how daft you are on this subject.

Spoiler

You must be registered to see images