Deidara vs Onoki

[Chaosmark101]

How did this go from Deidara vs Onoki, to Manda vs Onoki?

OT:Onoki wins mid diff
@Dr.Proof can't believe your implying Manda is intelligent or battle smart as a Kage smh

 

[DrProof]

Proof, that can only happen if Manda has full intel on Onoki's Jutsu. Manda running because an old man pointing a small cube of chakra at him is intimidating in what manner? It makes no sense. Manda does not know what Jinton does so he cannot react to it successfully before having acquired such knowledge. Manda does not know what the Area of effect, intensity, destructive power, range, or speed of Jinton. At a close enough distance, Onoki can disintegrate Manda with a large Cube regardless of what direction he decides to run. Jinton slices through solid ground like butter so beginning to borrow will fail and once again it's actual speed is MANY times faster than a Katon. Manda can only react to it after it is released which would already be too late. ​

Disagree. It makes sense in the matter of caution.

A Civilian has a weird looking object, and is aiming to throw it in my direction. What do I do?

A. Stand there.
B. Move.
C. Stand there.

I can literally make up near infinite scenarios, and every time the outcome would be the same, I would perceive malicious intent from the opposition. This scenario is no different. Jinton users mid-cast completely finalize their technique so by the time it's fired the opponent has already taken in the entire properties (size, shape, etc.). I'm looking at this from a realist p.o.v. Common sense to me says if something/someone harboring intent to injure/kill is pointed, or in my way, I'm getting the f*ck out of trajectory.

Also, if Ohnoki attempts to Jinton close range, he'd quickly be snatched up, and devoured. The best range for him to do such would be long against a summoning due to their sheer size in most cases. Firing off a quick Jinton has never been shown to my knowledge, not without help anyhow, so the slow casting preparations are still in play.

Please show me a scan of Jinton de-materializing the ground as a whole (I've never actually seen Ohnoki use Jinton on the surface)

^^^^^^^^RIP

Don't be a fapboy.

How did this go from Deidara vs Onoki, to Manda vs Onoki?

OT:Onoki wins mid diff
@Dr.Proof can't believe your implying Manda is intelligent or battle smart as a Kage smh

You're reading the context completely wrong if you believe I've insinuated Manda being anywhere near on par with Ohnoki in the intelligence category.

 

[Chaosmark101]

You're reading the context completely wrong if you believe I've insinuated Manda being anywhere near on par with Ohnoki in the intelligence category.

Bruh, you've stated several times Manda would be capable of judging onoki's actions, & counter appropriately. Re-read your posts I'm not shitting you bro

 

[DrProof]

Bruh, you've stated several times Manda would be capable of judging onoki's actions, & counter appropriately. Re-read your posts I'm not shitting you bro

The intelligence to perceive & rationally assess ≠ overall intelligence.

 

[Chaosmark101]

The intelligence to perceive & rationally assess ≠ overall intelligence.

Right, but nothing suggests he'd be able to assess vaporization coming right at him as Waltz was saying.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Ohnoki needs only to blast manda's head.

 

[DrProof]

Right, but nothing suggests he'd be able to assess vaporization coming right at him as Waltz was saying.

You're only taking what Waltz has said into play. My own addition opposes his consensus, providing reason to why Manda can accomplish such.

 

[Waltz]

Caution? that argument will never, ever, ever apply. Why didn't Itachi, arguably one of the most intelligent characters in the series activate the Yata mirror the moment he saw Sasuke create a thunderstorm to deflect the Jutsu? Simple. because he did not know what Sasuke was doing. Yes he was watching intently however he would not risk reacting inappropriately to the unknown hence he did not react until after Kirin actually surfaced. Why didn't Jinchuriki Madara, arguably one of the most intelligent Characters in the series put up a Goudama defense the moment he saw Gai enter the 8th gate? Because he did not know the extent of Gai's potential nor what he could do in that state, yes observed intently but did not react after acquiring the knowledge of Gai's abilities. I could go on to draw many examples from the manga where highly intelligent characters where caught off guard because they did not know the function of Jutsu they were being confronted with and could only respond after knowing the effect(s) of the said jutsu(s). Jinton is not "Weird object that is aiming to throw it in one's direction" it is a small sphere of chakra in the arms of an old man so your analogy does not apply. It would be very much unintelligent of Manda to engage Onooki at close range despite not knowing if such actions would provide success to Onoki's intentions with the sphere of chakra. It is very much out of character for any intelligent character to engage an opponent or perform an action that could probably secure the success of their opponents jutsu without first knowing the function of the Jutsu. It's called logical deduction, that is the bases of action during any combat scenario. Knowing your opponents abilities which then endows you with the knowledge to potentially evade or counteract against your opponent with your own abilities. That is what separates intelligence from instinct. Wildy running underground' trying to gobble up an opponent or running around the battle area makes no damn sense because Onooki would just cancel the Jinton and observe Manda being an ass exerting himself or Have a golem break it's teeth in if it tries to gobble.​

 

[DrProof]

Caution? that argument will never, ever, ever apply. Why didn't Itachi, arguably one of the most intelligent characters in the series activate the Yata mirror the moment he saw Sasuke create a thunderstorm to deflect the Jutsu? Simple. because he did not know what Sasuke was doing. Yes he was watching intently however he would not risk reacting inappropriately to the unknown hence he did not react until after Kirin actually surfaced. Why didn't Jinchuriki Madara, arguably one of the most intelligent Characters in the series put up a Goudama defense the moment he saw Gai enter the 8th gate? Because he did not know the extent of Gai's potential nor what he could do in that state, yes observed intently but did not react after acquiring the knowledge of Gai's abilities. I could go on to draw many examples from the manga where highly intelligent characters where caught off guard because they did not know the function of Jutsu they were being confronted with and could only respond after knowing the effect(s) of the said jutsu(s). Jinton is not "Weird object that is aiming to throw it in one's direction" it is a small sphere of chakra in the arms of an old man so your analogy does not apply. It would be very much unintelligent of Manda to engage Onooki at close range despite not knowing if such actions would provide success to Onoki's intentions with the sphere of chakra. It is very much out of character for any intelligent character to engage an opponent or perform an action that could probably secure the success of their opponents jutsu without first knowing the function of the Jutsu. It's called logical deduction, that is the bases of action during any combat scenario. Knowing your opponents abilities which then endows you with the knowledge to potentially evade or counteract against your opponent with your own abilities. That is what separates intelligence from instinct. Wildy running underground' trying to gobble up an opponent or running around the battle area makes no damn sense because Onooki would just cancel the Jinton and observe Manda being an ass exerting himself or Have a golem break it's teeth in if it tries to gobble.​

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Reading now.

 

[Chaosmark101]

You're only taking what Waltz has said into play. My own addition opposes his consensus, providing reason to why Manda can accomplish such.

Manda's best option here is an assault from underground. Beneath the earth he's somewhat safe from Jinton & can really on his senses to catch Onoki by suprise when he rises.

But even then,

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bruh. If Onoki decides to camp outside of Manda's range, he can shoot Jinton which he most likely has already prepared while waiting @ Manda once he appears vaporizing the poor snake.

 

[Waltz]

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Reading now.

Alright. I concede with your surrender.

The scan you requested:

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​

 

[BlacLord™]

Önoki was confident that he could wipe out Deidara even though the latter was visibly running away and for good reason; the conical GH can pulverise a radius as large as an island in an instant.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Take your second L in one thread, Proofy.

 

[DrProof]

Caution? that argument will never, ever, ever apply. Why didn't Itachi, arguably one of the most intelligent characters in the series activate the Yata mirror the moment he saw Sasuke create a thunderstorm to deflect the Jutsu? Simple. because he did not know what Sasuke was doing. Yes he was watching intently however he would not risk reacting inappropriately to the unknown hence he did not react until after Kirin actually surfaced. Why didn't Jinchuriki Madara, arguably one of the most intelligent Characters in the series put up a Goudama defense the moment he saw Gai enter the 8th gate? Because he did not know the extent of Gai's potential nor what he could do in that state, yes observed intently but did not react after acquiring the knowledge of Gai's abilities. I could go on to draw many examples from the manga where highly intelligent characters where caught off guard because they did not know the function of Jutsu they were being confronted with and could only respond after knowing the effect(s) of the said jutsu(s). Jinton is not "Weird object that is aiming to throw it in one's direction" it is a small sphere of chakra in the arms of an old man so your analogy does not apply. It would be very much unintelligent of Manda to engage Onooki at close range despite not knowing if such actions would provide success to Onoki's intentions with the sphere of chakra. It is very much out of character for any intelligent character to engage an opponent or perform an action that could probably secure the success of their opponents jutsu without first knowing the function of the Jutsu. It's called logical deduction, that is the bases of action during any combat scenario. Knowing your opponents abilities which then endows you with the knowledge to potentially evade or counteract against your opponent with your own abilities. That is what separates intelligence from instinct. Wildy running underground' trying to gobble up an opponent or running around the battle area makes no damn sense because Onooki would just cancel the Jinton and observe Manda being an ass exerting himself or Have a golem break it's teeth in if it tries to gobble.​

Imperfection. This is why each, and every situation you've just listed has been vacant of caution. Kishimoto himself is a human, and human's are insufficient beings in the manor of rationality in most cases, but what do we as debaters do? We perfect the imperfections. Yes, Itachi did not activate Susano'o/Yata Mirror until Kirin was fully acknowledged, and yes Madara did not erect an seemingly impregnable defense of Goudama. The reason is as I previously stated: "Imperfection". Humor me once again Waltz:

X: What if Itachi had used caution, concealing himself in Susano'o before the initial Kirin assault. Would the outcome have become any different? Honestly, I can't say it would've.
Y: What if Madara though arrogant as can be, had indulged in caution, fortifying his defenses with Guodama. Would the outcome have become any different? I believe so.

In every situation, if caution is applied the odds of survival increase, no matter what the situation. But once again, why is caution never implied canonically? Because Kishimoto isn't perfect. He doesn't assess the entire situation, he doesn't review every minuscule aspect which could change an outcome. We as debaters are arguably more intelligent in the aspect of perfecting his work, because we take these things into conclusion. This is why Itachi, nor Madara applied your scenarios: Because Kishimoto's lack of thoroughness.

My Analogy does apply, if caution is exerted. A man of caution, is a man who does not devalue, or overvalue another. A rock could symbolize the same lethality as a grenade to that of a man of caution. Logical deduction has many forms: Observing the content thoroughly, then reacting or Reacting to the situation off of an inference. They are both the same, yet alternate in initial maneuvers. So once again, you're wrong on intelligence vs instinct.

In regards to the scan you've kindly linked me, it's shown that Jinton can only pass through objects the user can see the other side too. If that isn't the case please enlighten me. I won't address the other context (Ohnoki hitting Manda in the teeth etc.) because I'm merely arguing Manda can evade Jinton.

Edit: Going out for a run. So don't think I've raised the white flag.

 

[TRE MERCER]

........
​

Intel was full for both sides for one Orochimaru can simply tell Manda what Oonoki abilities are and how they work. Jinton prep will take just about as long as Fire and oil combination. L00l Jiraiya took his eyes off Manda no. Manda is huge plus he was right in front of Jiraiya who still was look directly straight. Even if Jiraiya would have kept his eyes on Manda what would have changed? Nothing. Manda sheds his skin his eyes and everything stays in-contact he simply slips out of his body similar to oral rebirth which will work against Jinton especially at a big distance.​

 

[DrProof]

Intel was full for both sides for one Orochimaru can simply tell Manda what Oonoki abilities are and how they work. Jinton prep will take just about as long as Fire and oil combination. L00l Jiraiya took his eyes off Manda no. Manda is huge plus he was right in front of Jiraiya who still was look directly straight. Even if Jiraiya would have kept his eyes on Manda what would have changed? Nothing. Manda sheds his skin his eyes and everything stays in-contact he simply slips out of his body similar to oral rebirth which will work against Jinton especially at a big distance.​

I disagree that shedding his skin will evade Jinton. That part doesn't make sense.

 

[TRE MERCER]

I disagree that shedding his skin will evade Jinton. That part doesn't make sense.

Your not getting what im saying. You guys are talking about out right evading Jinton which isn't going to happen if he sheds his skin and slips right underground like it did in cannon that will/would work. Dodging won't though.​

 

[DrProof]

Your not getting what im saying. You guys are talking about out right evading Jinton which isn't going to happen if he sheds his skin and slips right underground like it did in cannon that will/would work. Dodging won't though.​

Lol b, that's what I've been saying, but he doesn't need to shed his skin to burrow. Like this whole argument with Waltz was nothing, but me saying that.

 

[Waltz]

Imperfection. This is why each, and every situation you've just listed has been vacant of caution. Kishimoto himself is a human, and human's are insufficient beings in the manor of rationality in most cases, but what do we as debaters do? We perfect the imperfections. Yes, Itachi did not activate Susano'o/Yata Mirror until Kirin was fully acknowledged, and yes Madara did not erect an seemingly impregnable defense of Goudama. The reason is as I previously stated: "Imperfection". Humor me once again Waltz:

X: What if Itachi had used caution, concealing himself in Susano'o before the initial Kirin assault. Would the outcome have become any different? Honestly, I can't say it would've.
Y: What if Madara though arrogant as can be, had indulged in caution, fortifying his defenses with Guodama. Would the outcome have become any different? I believe so.

In every situation, if caution is applied the odds of survival increase, no matter what the situation. But once again, why is caution never implied canonically? Because Kishimoto isn't perfect. He doesn't assess the entire situation, he doesn't review every minuscule aspect which could change an outcome. We as debaters are arguably more intelligent in the aspect of perfecting his work, because we take these things into conclusion. This is why Itachi, nor Madara applied your scenarios: Because Kishimoto's lack of thoroughness.

My Analogy does apply, if caution is exerted. A man of caution, is a man who does not devalue, or overvalue another. A rock could symbolize the same lethality as a grenade to that of a man of caution. Logical deduction has many forms: Observing the content thoroughly, then reacting or Reacting to the situation off of an inference. They are both the same, yet alternate in initial maneuvers. So once again, you're wrong on intelligence vs instinct.

In regards to the scan you've kindly linked me, it's shown that Jinton can only pass through objects the user can see the other side too. If that isn't the case please enlighten me. I won't address the other context (Ohnoki hitting Manda in the teeth etc.) because I'm merely arguing Manda can evade Jinton.

Edit: Going out for a run. So don't think I've raised the white flag.

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Imperfection. This is why each, and every situation you've just listed has been vacant of caution. Kishimoto himself is a human, and human's are insufficient beings in the manor of rationality in most cases, but what do we as debaters do? We perfect the imperfections. Yes, Itachi did not activate Susano'o/Yata Mirror until Kirin was fully acknowledged, and yes Madara did not erect an seemingly impregnable defense of Goudama. The reason is as I previously stated: "Imperfection".

Let me get this clear: you're saying that because Itachi did not activate Susano'o the moment He saw Sasuke create Thunderstorms and the reason why Jinchurik Maddy did not form a Goudama defense the moment Gai entered the 8th gate that this occured not because they did not know what their opponents were going to do but because Kishimoto's writing is imperfect and that he is irrational?

So if you're walking in the rain and lightening strikes in the sky, you'll run like a maniac through the streets to evade 'lightening'? No, you wouldn't (unless you're paranoid) because you do not know if the lightening is a threat to you or not. ​

X: What if Itachi had used caution, concealing himself in Susano'o before the initial Kirin assault. Would the outcome have become any different? Honestly, I can't say it would've.

Wrong. He would not have sustained any damage.

Spoiler

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​

Y: What if Madara though arrogant as can be, had indulged in caution, fortifying his defenses with Guodama. Would the outcome have become any different? I believe so.

Obviously; because Gai's initial and consecutive hits would have been a fail.

Spoiler

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​

In every situation, if caution is applied the odds of survival increase, no matter what the situation. But once again, why is caution never implied canonically? Because Kishimoto isn't perfect. He doesn't assess the entire situation, he doesn't review every minuscule aspect which could change an outcome. We as debaters are arguably more intelligent in the aspect of perfecting his work, because we take these things into conclusion. This is why Itachi, nor Madara applied your scenarios: Because Kishimoto's lack of thoroughness.

Don't try to blame the Author because caution is always applied. I can draw many references from the Manga where characters were being cautious approaching their opponent. The problem is you have "Being cautious" and the crazy notion of "Reacting appropriately to something unknown" completely confused.​

My Analogy does apply, if caution is exerted. A man of caution, is a man who does not devalue, or overvalue another. A rock could symbolize the same lethality as a grenade to that of a man of caution. Logical deduction has many forms: Observing the content thoroughly, then reacting or Reacting to the situation off of an inference. They are both the same, yet alternate in initial maneuvers. So once again, you're wrong on intelligence vs instinct.

Alright. So If your mom being highly aggressive had a grenade in her hand you'd either tackle her (a case which could kill you) or you'd run away (a case where she could throw it as a means to blow you up) because to you that is being rational and intelligent instead of you being cautious and intelligent; and observe what she does with the grenade before you make a reaction because you do not know her intentions with it?
​

In regards to the scan you've kindly linked me, it's shown that Jinton can only pass through objects the user can see the other side too. If that isn't the case please enlighten me. I won't address the other context (Ohnoki hitting Manda in the teeth etc.) because I'm merely arguing Manda can evade Jinton.

Not sure what you're seeing but the scan shows Jinton eating through solid rock like butter. Here's another scan of it doing so similarly to a concrete floor. ​

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Intel was full for both sides for one Orochimaru can simply tell Manda what Oonoki abilities are and how they work. Jinton prep will take just about as long as Fire and oil combination. L00l Jiraiya took his eyes off Manda no. Manda is huge plus he was right in front of Jiraiya who still was look directly straight. Even if Jiraiya would have kept his eyes on Manda what would have changed? Nothing. Manda sheds his skin his eyes and everything stays in-contact he simply slips out of his body similar to oral rebirth which will work against Jinton especially at a big distance.​

I'm not referring to that thread. Our discussion is Manda vs Jinton and the bold is a baseless assumption. ​

 

[DrProof]

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Let me get this clear: you're saying that because Itachi did not activate Susano'o the moment He saw Sasuke create Thunderstorms and the reason why Jinchurik Maddy did not form a Goudama defense the moment Gai entered the 8th gate that this occured not because they did not know what their opponents were going to do but because Kishimoto's writing is imperfect and that he is irrational?

So if you're walking in the rain and lightening strikes in the sky, you'll run like a maniac through the streets to evade 'lightening'? No, you wouldn't (unless you're paranoid) because you do not know if the lightening is a threat to you or not. ​

Wrong. He would not have sustained any damage.

Spoiler

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​

Obviously; because Gai's initial and consecutive hits would have been a fail.

Spoiler

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​

Don't try to blame the Author because caution is always applied. I can draw many references from the Manga where characters were being cautious approaching their opponent. The problem is you have "Being cautious" and the crazy notion of "Reacting appropriately to something unknown" completely confused.​

Alright. So If your mom being highly aggressive had a grenade in her hand you'd either tackle her (a case which could kill you) or you'd run away (a case where she could throw it as a means to blow you up) because to you that is being rational and intelligent instead of you being cautious and intelligent; and observe what she does with the grenade before you make a reaction because you do not know her intentions with it?
​

Not sure what you're seeing but the scan shows Jinton eating through solid rock like butter. Here's another scan of it doing so similarly to a concrete floor. ​

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What took you so long. Reading now.

Edit: Actually I'll reply later. Going to go out.