[VS] Deidara (Apex) vs Itachi (River)

Apêx1

Apêx1

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I will continue this debate with this account fyi
 

Rιver

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Apēx said:
Genjutsu

Itachi is by far the most skilled and versatile Genjutsu user in the manga. "He's put Deidara under Genjutsu in past so why can't he do it again?" you say? Deidara said he doesn't fall for the same trick twice [
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] and he clearly proved it to be the case. Sasuke thought he had Deidara under his control, but it was clear that Deidara had played him with his Nendo Bunshin. He said it's 'the same as Itachi' implying that he could do the same against Itachi and fool the deception master. There goes Sharingan Genjutsu for Itachi and any other weak version of Genjutsu. Deidara counters Genjutsu by constricting his eye to check for any illusions [
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][
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][
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]. That means Deidara's ability to counter Genjutsu is not limited to Sharingan Genjutsu but any Genjutsu that affects your eyes directly. Hence, Genjutsu is off the list completely.

Now that Genjutsu is covered, I would like to address Tsukiyomi. Since Tsukiyomi isn't actually counterable by any non-Uchiha elite, Deidara is obviously off the list. However, that doesn't mean he can't avoid it completely or prevent its effective usage. The databook puts it at "close range" meaning around 5 meters.
NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.


This means Deidara's C1 bird can more than easily overcome any attempt of Tsukiyomi by simply staying elevated in the sky. Moreover, Deidara's ability to use Nendo Bunshins without anyone noticing is going to be a pain for Itachi. Not only does Itachi have no intel on it prior to its first usage, but it can nullify the effectiveness of his MS. Itachi acts on certainty, not chance, but with Deidara's Nendo Bunshin it will always be based on chance. And yes, one failed Tsukiyomi or Amateratsu could mean a huge waste of chakra for Itachi; he can't afford it. Thus the likelihood of any Tsukiyomi being used is extremely low. He can't overcome the C1's range, he has no knowledge of Nendo Bunshin feints and he can't afford to waste so much chakra.
Click to expand...

A large portion of this text is false. Why? Because:

1) Deidara has no intel on Tsukuyomi.

2) Deidara can't counter all his genjutsu. For example, Itachi has a simple
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at his disposal. Naruto fell for this, twice. He wouldn't even see it coming. That'd mean an instant K.O.

3) Tsukuyomi is not 5m ranged (don't know where you got that from). It might be close-ranged due to Itachi's sight, but that wouldn't be a problem for Itachi if he closes the gap with his speed. And Deidara doesn't have intel on this. That'd mean another K.O.

4) Deidara going off to flight would be completely off his character, and also he would not even get in his bird before Itachi would put him down. He almost got his neck cut off by Sasuke, who is not even nearly as fast as Itachi. Third K.O.

So yeah... genjutsu is still his weak spot.

Explaining the Nendo Bunshin's power

You might be saying, "wtf is this guy on about, Nendo bunshins were useless for lyke, evur, foh apexy" But I will say, no young wursta, Nendo Bunshins are Deidara's most dangerous tool and make him extremely deceptive. There have been three instances of unbelievable Nendo Bunshin deceit in the manga. The first incident is against Nardo and Kakashi. Kakashi was already looking at Deidara and he has a Sharingan [
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]. Next Naruto ends up punching the real Deidara and then creates shadow clones while looking at him [
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], they also hold him [
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]. Kakashi was watching the whole time as you can see here [
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]. Yet, somehow, Deidara was capable of switching with a Nendo Bunshin during that time [
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]. Inb4 it was a Nendo Bunshin from the start, Deidara states that he was punched by Naruto in the beginning and that it was a heavy punch [
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].

In the second incident, a Byakugan user was involved.. Yes, a Byakugan user [
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]. He was in fact fighting with them as you can see here [
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], where he says he doesn't believe he can escape. Yet in the time he and team Gai land, he had already substituted with a Nendo bunshin despite there being a Sharingan and Byakugan user present [
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]. Not to mention, the Byakugan user and the Sharingan user failed to notice Deidara's Nendo bunshin move underground [
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]. So once again, undetectable due to the absurd speed in which it operates.

The final incident happened against a CM2 Sasuke, who failed to notice Deidara switch with a Nendo Bunshin [
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]. He clearly had Sasuke [
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], and if it wasn't for his Raiton capabilities, Sasuke would've lost the match due to deceitful Nendo Bunshins.

Now that you know how overpowered the Nendo Bunshins are, you probably are thinking to yourself, "omg why did I evur want to debate the 1 + only Apexy?" but I will tell you that had you not, you wouldn't have seen the light. Now that you have seen the light, you can live a happier, better life. I will expand on its usage later on.
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I can't say they aren't effective, but this would only work if Itachi ever stabbed Deidara
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or did not see his explosion coming
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. If he ever enters a fight, it's starting with either genjutsu or Katon. If Deidara decided to blow his clones up, he has a fine durable Susanoo at his disposal. So either way, these clones are useless in front of Itachi, who he would be able to cut them down easily anyway without them being able to lift a finger.

Countering Amateratsu

Given the fact that I have already covered Deidara's proficiency in Nendo Bunshins, there's little needed to still speak of. To clear misconceptions however, I must clear some misconceptions about it. For one, Amateratsu is short ranged. When I say short ranged, I don't mean it can only travel a small distance however. What I mean is that its ability to spawn is 5 meters according to the databook. After that it must travel the distance. This is the reason why Hachibi was able to put up his tails, Raikage was able to dodge, etc. It's because after 5 meters it must travel rather than spawn.
User(s): Uchiha Itachi
Rank: -
TNG: Ninjutsu (Bloodline Limit)
Range: Close
Type: Attack

Description:
"The ones reflected in these eyes turn to ash!! A black world-destroying
conflagration that scorches all on heaven and earth!!"

The Uchiha clan, originally significant as "those with the fans which manipulate
fire", traditionally specialize in Katon jutsu, but there is a legendary jutsu
unknown outside the clan. This is "Amaterasu". The appearance of these flames
are jet-black. The high temperature is like the sun, and one time touching it is
the last. It is said that this is named after the Goddess of the Sun as it
continues to burn for seven days and seven nights. However, the Mangekyou
Sharingan is necessary to activate this jutsu, and for this reason there are not
many who have learned this jutsu. Therefore, the details of this jutsu are yet
unrevealed...

Picture text:
Top: The black flames that only the owner of the Mangekyou Sharingan can control
are even able to instantly break through the side of a rock toad who breathes
fire!!
Bottom: Jiraiya, whi has mastered many jutsu, did not know of the existence of
Amaterasu. What he does understand is the power of the suspicious conflagration.


This means if Deidara is 20 meters high in the sky it will have to travel around 15 meters. Its speed does not vary from entons speed. And yes, Enton is fast, but not quite the level people make it out to be. Gaara's sand was capable of stopping Enton from a 5-10 meter distance. Gaara's sand was outran by Deidara on foot [
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][
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] and outsped by Deidara in his C1 bird [
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]. So if anything, Deidara can more than easily notice the Amateratsu coming at him and instantaneously substitute with a Nendo Bunshin. Once the Nendo Bunshin is on fire he can maintain himself and drop to Itachi who will either finish him off or leave him be. Fact is however, Deidara can unleash a variety of attacks at this point. he can subtly drop spiders which will attack Itachi secretly [
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][
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] and prevent any Susano defence from working as it will be from within, or initiate C4 using the Nendo Bunshins explosion as a smoke screen. The fact that Deidara has intel on Amateratsu also means he can begin his Nendo Bunshin substitution the second he sees Itachi's eyes bleed.
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Well, the thing is, Deidara has zero intel on Amaterasu. So him preparing all this would be completely off character, while also, it wouldn't work. One thing is, Amaterasu does not spawn only from 5 meters, it literally spawns anywhere. That's why it's very hard to dodge. Second of all, Deidara has no speed to dodge it. He wouldn't even see it coming, and would be on fire. Sasuke, who was miles ahead of Deidara in terms of speed,
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from exhausted Itachi's near blind sight. So Amaterasu would end him.

Deidara's Underground Attacks

Given tha Itachi is faster than Base Hebi Sasuke, he will certainly be able to survive smaller variants. Moreover, any larger variants can be countered with Susano. "So apexy if Itachi can stop all attacks how can Deidara even win waddafak?" Kids, kids, Deidara has many ways to overcome Itachi's defence and speed. For one, Deidara's Nendo Bunshin can be used from the first second of the fight and stay on the ground, whilst Deidara goes airborne. This Nendo Bunshin would then be able to use Hiding like a Mole to set up mines underneath the ground. Inb4 he can see them so they are useless. I don't understand why people seem to assume Mines have no usage in a fight vs a Dojutsu user. Only because Sasuke had Raiton doesn't mean x Dojutsu user without Raiton can counter it. Itachi can be cornered into running in 1 direction which is certain to have mines.
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, he'd slow himself down and be caught in the blast radius. Even Sasuke was caught by mines and was only capable of countering it due to the fact he had CM2's flight. Itachi has no flight, so he has no counter. So in this situation, it'd be using Itachi's speed against himself. Deidara would literally be forcing Itachi into mines by making him run away from a C1 explosion. Moreover, given the location, Deidara can drop jellyfish bombs into the water while Itachi is blinded by an explosion. Thus when Itachi tries to leave a minefield location he'll be entering into an even more dangerous zone which has explosions that can swim to him and explode. Inb4 Itachi can dodge attacks from above, the side and below. The longer the fight draws out, the more control of the area Deidara will have. Eventually the location will be infested with Jellyfish which can swim in the water and then explode (note explosions in the water are stronger than outside),
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which can be
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and crawl beneath ground to you, and and mines. Although Susano might protect him from normal attacks from up, Itachi's Susano will have no effect against all these underground attacks.
Click to expand...

This is also wrong (landmines). The reason why Deidara commanded explicitly Tobi to set the mines, was because
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Deidara can get into the ground, but he has to dig his way to get any further; whether it was up, down, left or right
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. Also, the terrain. The terrain being mostly water, means that if Deidara ever planned to get mines underground, it'd have to go through the water (which is pretty big). And since Deidara has
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, but they are actually landmines, if Itachi maintains his ground on top of the surface he won't be activating those bombs (which is also easier with Sharingan).

And about the fish bombs, they won't be a threat either. Itachi has Sharingan to track them, and Suiton: Suiryuudan to drive them away. If they got too close, he would have the option of using Susanoo. But it'd be already hard to plant these bombs for Deidara while getting bombed by Suiton & Katon that Itachi gets from the water beneath. If that proved too difficult land, Itachi
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and land Amaterasu from distance. Either way, Deidara would be brought down. It's not a matter how, but when.

Susano and Yata Mirror

Although I have already covered the underground attacks which can be used to overcome Susano and Yata Mirror, I would still like to add in that C4 can in fact bypass Susano. Susano is in fact permeable to gases given that the users can still breeze. Good thing is the C4 bombs travel with the air, meaning the can pass through just nicely [
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]. So gg to Itachi's impregnable defence.

TL:DR Deidara outlasts by sending bombs into the water and making the water explode so that it reaches a high enough eleveation for him to drink.

TL:DR Itachi will be disadvantaged by the fact that he's in a lower altitude and thus breathes all the stinging steam which will burn his lungs while Deidara got the unpolluted fresh virgin air.

TL:DR if Itachi has to take a shit he'll be stuck with the smell down there while Deidara can take a shit and be unfazed by the smell at his altitude to the abundance of fresh air and gravity.

GG NO RE M8 NO H8 BUT GET REKT IN DIS DB8
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Itachi would have his Sharingan to track them down, and if necessary, the water to swim out of it's area. But it'd already be over before this, since Deidara has no means to get his flight.
 
Apêx1

Apêx1

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Rιver said:
A large portion of this text is false. Why? Because:

1) Deidara has no intel on Tsukuyomi.

2) Deidara can't counter all his genjutsu. For example, Itachi has a simple
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at his disposal. Naruto fell for this, twice. He wouldn't even see it coming. That'd mean an instant K.O.

3) Tsukuyomi is not 5m ranged (don't know where you got that from). It might be close-ranged due to Itachi's sight, but that wouldn't be a problem for Itachi if he closes the gap with his speed. And Deidara doesn't have intel on this. That'd mean another K.O.

4) Deidara going off to flight would be completely off his character, and also he would not even get in his bird before Itachi would put him down. He almost got his neck cut off by Sasuke, who is not even nearly as fast as Itachi. Third K.O.

So yeah... genjutsu is still his weak spot.
Click to expand...

Why does he need intel on a Jutsu that stems directly from Itachi's Sharingan? He knows that he shouldn't look Itachi straight in the eye, not to mention Itachi can't cast Tsuikyomi in a range that's more than 5 meters. So I fail to see how Tsukiyomi is ever being cast here. Second of all, Finger Genjutsu is completely useless, as is Sharingan Genjutsu. I have already explained that Deidara is immune to Genjutsu. Deidara's Genjutsu immunity stems from his innovative way of countering Genjutsu by constricting his eye [
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][
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][
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]. I have already shown you this in my opener post and do not know why you are bringing this up again.

Deidara constricts eye=Genjutsu seen through. Period. So how that would lead into a K.O. is beyond me. Tsukiyomi has a 5 meter range based off the Databook entry that I gave you. All Close Range jutsu are classified as '5 meters', and will remain so in the manga unless refuted by something in the manga itself. And how would he close the gap with his speed? His shunshin speed does not correlate to his jumping speed - at all. So no, no KO happening here unless you can actually give me proof as to how Itachi can close such a massive distance.

And what? How is Deidara's flight out of character? That's literally all he does in the manga during his fights; fly. And no, we've already seen Sasuke's attempted Shunshin blitz that Deidara dodges while fooling around. Deidara would not fool around against Itachi, he'd be genuinely serious since he hates his guts.

So no, Genjutsu is not a weak point and has no relevance in this match-up based on your argument. All Genjutsu bar Tsukiyomi are useless vs Deidara's eye constriction, which mind you, was
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You can see him say that "he needs to thank Itachi for this" and this being his Genjutsu countering eye constriction, which he does in the next panel.


I can't say they aren't effective, but this would only work if Itachi ever stabbed Deidara
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or did not see his explosion coming
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. If he ever enters a fight, it's starting with either genjutsu or Katon. If Deidara decided to blow his clones up, he has a fine durable Susanoo at his disposal. So either way, these clones are useless in front of Itachi, who he would be able to cut them down easily anyway without them being able to lift a finger.
Click to expand...

What? Deidara's Nendo Bunshins are useful in all situations. I have shown you the extreme speed at which Deidara can switch with one, unseeable to the Byakugan and SHaringan. Whether it be juking, deceiving or baiting, it's always useful. And no, Itachi won't notice them when a Byakugan and another Sharingan user couldn't. So however you are expecting Sasuke to put down Deidara (you still haven't said how he'd do it bar unviable methods), it won't work because Nendo Bunshins can be substituted with. And why would Deidara ever even blow his clone up? He only did that for a diversion, he doesn't do it for combat purposes. So once again, you completely missed the point of my arguments. They aren't meant for offensive purposes, but rather counter-attacks and duplicity.

Well, the thing is, Deidara has zero intel on Amaterasu. So him preparing all this would be completely off character, while also, it wouldn't work. One thing is, Amaterasu does not spawn only from 5 meters, it literally spawns anywhere. That's why it's very hard to dodge. Second of all, Deidara has no speed to dodge it. He wouldn't even see it coming, and would be on fire. Sasuke, who was miles ahead of Deidara in terms of speed,
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from exhausted Itachi's near blind sight. So Amaterasu would end him.
Click to expand...

Um, no. For one, Deidara has seen Kakashi's Kamui [
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]. Deidara insinuates that he knows about Itachi's MS given the fact that he compared Kakashi to Itachi in terms of Dojutsu levels.
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Furthermore, it seems like Itachi's Amatertasu is infamous based on how many people have shown knowledge on it. Here we see random apprentices of the Raikage like C and Darui show intel on Amateratsu [
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], and they suggest the only reason Ay went into v2 was to dodge the Amateratsu. So saying Deidara, who has seen Kakashi's MS jutsu, and is a part of the Akatsuki with Itachi, doesn't know about Amateratsu is rather far fetched. And even if he doesn't know exactly how it works, he'd still be intelligent enough to form a barrier around his bird to block Itachi's direct LoS. He can keep holes within it for sight and that would pretty much act as a safeguard, while also effectively countering Amateratsu. And no, Amateratsu can only spawn within a 5 meter range. Everything after 5 meters requires movement on its part. When used on Kaguya's ice, it spawned as it can't move [
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]. When used against Hachibi, it spawned but then moved, which is presumable given Hachibi was capable of blocking it with his tails as shown when he casts it here [
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] yet by the time its reached the Hachibi has blocked it with his tail [
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]. Sasuke would've clearly aimed for something else like his torso, yet Hachibi intercepted it with his tail, meaning it happened after.

And again, you don't seem to grasp the distinct differences between Sasuke and Deidara. Sasuke dodged Amateratsu for a little and then eventually got hit. But that wouldn't correlate to Deidara being hit, because Deidara simply needs to let his C1 Bird be hit. He can just jump off, make a new one, and send that one right at Itachi; with its explosion enhanced by Amateratsu. Furthermore, this is where Nendo Bunshins come into play. Deidara can substitute himself with a Nendo Bunshin and let the Nendo Bunshin act like its dead. Itachi would lower his guard and that's exactly when Deidara would retaliate with his underground explosions and other small C1 variants. Anyways, Sasuke was not miles ahead of Deidara in speed. Slightly, yes.

This is also wrong (landmines). The reason why Deidara commanded explicitly Tobi to set the mines, was because
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Deidara can get into the ground, but he has to dig his way to get any further; whether it was up, down, left or right
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. Also, the terrain. The terrain being mostly water, means that if Deidara ever planned to get mines underground, it'd have to go through the water (which is pretty big). And since Deidara has
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, but they are actually landmines, if Itachi maintains his ground on top of the surface he won't be activating those bombs (which is also easier with Sharingan).
Click to expand...

Clearly you don't understand how the technique works wursta.
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The cracks in the floor that your image shows is not to be confused. The same cracks were created when Obito came out of the ground here [
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]. And if you read the DB, you'll see "turns the ground into fine sand" meaning he can move underground with utmost ease. Furthermore, he can detect magnetic forces so he knows exactly where he's going and where he is at any given moment. And I never said he'd put mines in the water, I CLEARLY stated that jelly fish and other fish can be placed in the water to act like moving mines. Itachi can literally do nothing about those given he can't defuse them with Raiton, and since they follow him, he's as good as dead. I don't get the grammar/point you are trying to convey in the bold.

And about the fish bombs, they won't be a threat either. Itachi has Sharingan to track them, and Suiton: Suiryuudan to drive them away. If they got too close, he would have the option of using Susanoo. But it'd be already hard to plant these bombs for Deidara while getting bombed by Suiton & Katon that Itachi gets from the water beneath. If that proved too difficult land, Itachi
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and land Amaterasu from distance. Either way, Deidara would be brought down. It's not a matter how, but when.Itachi would have his Sharingan to track them down, and if necessary, the water to swim out of it's area. But it'd already be over before this, since Deidara has no means to get his flight.
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What? Itachi has a Sharingan but it doesn't mean he can track them. He'd have to look straight down the entirety of the fight to keep track of them the whole time. Any time he stops tracking them he'd have to fear for an explosion this large to occur from a small fish [
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]. That would make him completely vulnerable to guided birds that are coming from the sky/C4. And how exactly would Suiton Suiryuudan do anything for Itachi? He'd push them away just so that they'd be guided back to him by Deidara. Not to mention, if he's using them as a part of his Suiton it means he is within their aforementioned explosion radius. I sincerely hope Itachi is more intelligent than the points you are making. And lol, wat. How is it hard for Deidara to drop subtle bombs because Itachi is using Katon and Suiton? Itachi's Suiton is weak and will never make contact with Deidara. Katon's being aimed upwards are rather redunant and a waste of chakra as Deidara would just move his bird to the side. If anything your strategies are forcing Itachi into a state of low chakra rather than achieving his victory.
@underlined Wait wot? How is he creating mist with clones? And even if he could, how exactly are you proving that's enough to have any effect on Deidara's LoS? Either way, if Deidara can't see Itachi (which you'll need to explain), then he would substitute with a precautionary nendo Bunshin. Same strategy as before, Nendo gets hit by Ama> acts like he's about to lose/die> take advantage of Itachi's lowered guard>attack him from beneath via centipedes or Jellyfish etc.
@bold, are you saying he can swim away from them? Lol, no idea what you mean there..
 
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Rιver

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Apêx said:
Why does he need intel on a Jutsu that stems directly from Itachi's Sharingan? He knows that he shouldn't look Itachi straight in the eye, not to mention Itachi can't cast Tsuikyomi in a range that's more than 5 meters. So I fail to see how Tsukiyomi is ever being cast here. Second of all, Finger Genjutsu is completely useless, as is Sharingan Genjutsu. I have already explained that Deidara is immune to Genjutsu. Deidara's Genjutsu immunity stems from his innovative way of countering Genjutsu by constricting his eye [
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][
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][
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]. I have already shown you this in my opener post and do not know why you are bringing this up again.

Deidara constricts eye=Genjutsu seen through. Period. So how that would lead into a K.O. is beyond me. Tsukiyomi has a 5 meter range based off the Databook entry that I gave you. All Close Range jutsu are classified as '5 meters', and will remain so in the manga unless refuted by something in the manga itself. And how would he close the gap with his speed? His shunshin speed does not correlate to his jumping speed - at all. So no, no KO happening here unless you can actually give me proof as to how Itachi can close such a massive distance.

And what? How is Deidara's flight out of character? That's literally all he does in the manga during his fights; fly. And no, we've already seen Sasuke's attempted Shunshin blitz that Deidara dodges while fooling around. Deidara would not fool around against Itachi, he'd be genuinely serious since he hates his guts.

So no, Genjutsu is not a weak point and has no relevance in this match-up based on your argument. All Genjutsu bar Tsukiyomi are useless vs Deidara's eye constriction, which mind you, was
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You can see him say that "he needs to thank Itachi for this" and this being his Genjutsu countering eye constriction, which he does in the next panel.
Click to expand...

Because he wouldn't. I can't even begin counting how many times Deidara looked Sasuke straight in the eye
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; mainly the reason being, because he ''trained'' his eye to immunity. And this was Sasuke, who is way below Itachi in terms of genjutsu.

Now you are missing the points here. Finger Genjutsu is not useless, as Deidara's immunity comes from direct eye contact; mainly to counter the Sharingan as you also said. But the genjutsu done by just a finger, is not a Sharingan jutsu.

''That means Deidara's ability to counter Genjutsu is not limited to Sharingan Genjutsu but any Genjutsu that affects your eyes directly.''

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Finger Genjutsu is good, because it requires zero eye contact to be established. Making Deidara very vulnerable to the jutsu, which he knows nothing about.

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About the range thing, did you know Katon: Gokakyuu is also listed as short-range jutsu? But hey, didn't we see a massive gap between the victim and the user in here
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and here
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? That's a nice five meters fam. Itachi should consider surgery if he's that small.

And yes, the thing about Deidara is that he doesn't take flight until he is attacked, like in these several cases
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. And the small fact is that, when Itachi attacks that one time, he is dead; by either
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,
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or wasted by his
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.

As I said, it's not a matter of how but when Deidara is taken down.

What? Deidara's Nendo Bunshins are useful in all situations. I have shown you the extreme speed at which Deidara can switch with one, unseeable to the Byakugan and SHaringan. Whether it be juking, deceiving or baiting, it's always useful. And no, Itachi won't notice them when a Byakugan and another Sharingan user couldn't. So however you are expecting Sasuke to put down Deidara (you still haven't said how he'd do it bar unviable methods), it won't work because Nendo Bunshins can be substituted with. And why would Deidara ever even blow his clone up? He only did that for a diversion, he doesn't do it for combat purposes. So once again, you completely missed the point of my arguments. They aren't meant for offensive purposes, but rather counter-attacks and duplicity.
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No, they are no use for Deidara. Nendo Bunshin is designed to trap him in it's body, or explode. Both of these have answers called Susanoo. If he is trapped, Itachi can cut the whole thing down as well as Deidara who hides in the bird with his blades and end Deidara there. If Deidara decides to blow up, Itachi has Susanoo for coverage and it's just a matter of time until Deidara is found and killed. The only use they could be, would be staying as a punching bag until eventually Deidara gets deaded.

Um, no. For one, Deidara has seen Kakashi's Kamui [
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]. Deidara insinuates that he knows about Itachi's MS given the fact that he compared Kakashi to Itachi in terms of Dojutsu levels.
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Furthermore, it seems like Itachi's Amatertasu is infamous based on how many people have shown knowledge on it. Here we see random apprentices of the Raikage like C and Darui show intel on Amateratsu [
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], and they suggest the only reason Ay went into v2 was to dodge the Amateratsu. So saying Deidara, who has seen Kakashi's MS jutsu, and is a part of the Akatsuki with Itachi, doesn't know about Amateratsu is rather far fetched. And even if he doesn't know exactly how it works, he'd still be intelligent enough to form a barrier around his bird to block Itachi's direct LoS. He can keep holes within it for sight and that would pretty much act as a safeguard, while also effectively countering Amateratsu. And no, Amateratsu can only spawn within a 5 meter range. Everything after 5 meters requires movement on its part. When used on Kaguya's ice, it spawned as it can't move [
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]. When used against Hachibi, it spawned but then moved, which is presumable given Hachibi was capable of blocking it with his tails as shown when he casts it here [
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] yet by the time its reached the Hachibi has blocked it with his tail [
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]. Sasuke would've clearly aimed for something else like his torso, yet Hachibi intercepted it with his tail, meaning it happened after.
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Sure, never said he doesn't know of his MS. But he'd know about it's techniques? That's a bit far fetched. Why on earth would he train his eye to breaking point if he wouldn't be able to counter Tsukuyomi anyway? Given also that not many knew about his techniques,
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in the era Deidara was still living in, until Itachi literally set the whole forest on fire. He didn't even know about the fact that Sharingan can see chakra. Although arguing about it would be pointless since Deidara still can't counter it.

Dude, are you joking right now? Are you telling me that
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,
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and Madara were all 5 meters away and so slow they could not evade ''Enton speed'' Amaterasu that even Gaara defended against? Amaterasu spawns literally anywhere the person looks at
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. It's not up to debate dude, it just isn't.

And again, you don't seem to grasp the distinct differences between Sasuke and Deidara. Sasuke dodged Amateratsu for a little and then eventually got hit. But that wouldn't correlate to Deidara being hit, because Deidara simply needs to let his C1 Bird be hit. He can just jump off, make a new one, and send that one right at Itachi; with its explosion enhanced by Amateratsu. Furthermore, this is where Nendo Bunshins come into play. Deidara can substitute himself with a Nendo Bunshin and let the Nendo Bunshin act like its dead. Itachi would lower his guard and that's exactly when Deidara would retaliate with his underground explosions and other small C1 variants. Anyways, Sasuke was not miles ahead of Deidara in speed. Slightly, yes.
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Pretty nice strategy, except that I hope you don't believe Deidara being able to put his C1 bird,
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, in front of him before Itachi is able to execute Amaterasu. You are severely underestimating Amaterasu's speed here, and it is not good.

Yeah, again, I hate to repeat myself but how does he use his underground explosions when there's water on terrain= It's literally a
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, and there would be mines which
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, using against someone who literally can see
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. This tactic is very useless because Itachi would be at advantage if they ever fought on land; he knows where the mines are, Deidara doesn't.

Yes he was. He was forced to go airborne because of his speed. And this was regular Sasuke,
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in terms of speed. I mean he got schooled, big time. Imagine what would happen to Deidara, especially when Sharingan can track also his movements? It's game over buddy.

Clearly you don't understand how the technique works wursta.
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The cracks in the floor that your image shows is not to be confused. The same cracks were created when Obito came out of the ground here [
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]. And if you read the DB, you'll see "turns the ground into fine sand" meaning he can move underground with utmost ease. Furthermore, he can detect magnetic forces so he knows exactly where he's going and where he is at any given moment. And I never said he'd put mines in the water, I CLEARLY stated that jelly fish and other fish can be placed in the water to act like moving mines. Itachi can literally do nothing about those given he can't defuse them with Raiton, and since they follow him, he's as good as dead. I don't get the grammar/point you are trying to convey in the bold.

What? Itachi has a Sharingan but it doesn't mean he can track them. He'd have to look straight down the entirety of the fight to keep track of them the whole time. Any time he stops tracking them he'd have to fear for an explosion this large to occur from a small fish [
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]. That would make him completely vulnerable to guided birds that are coming from the sky/C4. And how exactly would Suiton Suiryuudan do anything for Itachi? He'd push them away just so that they'd be guided back to him by Deidara. Not to mention, if he's using them as a part of his Suiton it means he is within their aforementioned explosion radius. I sincerely hope Itachi is more intelligent than the points you are making. And lol, wat. How is it hard for Deidara to drop subtle bombs because Itachi is using Katon and Suiton? Itachi's Suiton is weak and will never make contact with Deidara. Katon's being aimed upwards are rather redunant and a waste of chakra as Deidara would just move his bird to the side. If anything your strategies are forcing Itachi into a state of low chakra rather than achieving his victory.
@underlined Wait wot? How is he creating mist with clones? And even if he could, how exactly are you proving that's enough to have any effect on Deidara's LoS? Either way, if Deidara can't see Itachi (which you'll need to explain), then he would substitute with a precautionary nendo Bunshin. Same strategy as before, Nendo gets hit by Ama> acts like he's about to lose/die> take advantage of Itachi's lowered guard>attack him from beneath via centipedes or Jellyfish etc.
@bold, are you saying he can swim away from them? Lol, no idea what you mean there..
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Wait, what? So he uses that jutsu on water? You do know that, that jutsu is designed to use on land right? Also, my point in the bold was, if the uses landmines, Itachi can stay on top of the water and would not activate the mines. If however, Deidara put fish in the water, by swimming like you implied (...?), that'd just mean he gets impaled by Totsuka. So I have no idea what how this tactic is useful since he can't execute it.

Look down all the time? Yeah, I don't think Sasuke was looking down the entire fight when he was evading them landmines. You know, you can see other things when you look at somewhere, other than the object you're looking at.

The jutsu are not to harm Deidara, but create a mist that does actually affect his sight; unless you believe he can see from mist this thick.

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And I don't know what you mean by beneath. If he wants to escape, he needs to go underground. If he releases the fish from there, Itachi can always guard himself with Susanoo but Deidara would blow himself into abyss. So I don't know how he executes it, again, because he would die if he swam up or stayed underwater.

TL;DR --> Itachi kills him from the start with his speed. He can either trap him in genjutsu by closing distance, impale him with Totsuka or just plain cut him down with kunai.

TL;DR --> Itachi kills him if he goes airborne too, by using his mist and Amaterasu from distance. Deidara is probably forced to jump and he gets impaled.

TL;DR --> Itachi can use finger genjutsu to K.O. him in an instant.

TL;DR --> Any explosives are tanked by Susanoo, and Deidara dies due to suicide bombing. Yay, freedom wins.

Rip Itani.
 
Apêx1

Apêx1

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Rιver said:
Because he wouldn't. I can't even begin counting how many times Deidara looked Sasuke straight in the eye
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; mainly the reason being, because he ''trained'' his eye to immunity. And this was Sasuke, who is way below Itachi in terms of genjutsu.

Now you are missing the points here. Finger Genjutsu is not useless, as Deidara's immunity comes from direct eye contact; mainly to counter the Sharingan as you also said. But the genjutsu done by just a finger, is not a Sharingan jutsu.

''That means Deidara's ability to counter Genjutsu is not limited to Sharingan Genjutsu but any Genjutsu that affects your eyes directly.''

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Finger Genjutsu is good, because it requires zero eye contact to be established. Making Deidara very vulnerable to the jutsu, which he knows nothing about.

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Click to expand...

But those are completely different situations. Sasuke can fly to get close when Deidara is airborne, Sasue blitzed when Deidara didn't know about Sasuke's speed and power, the rest were all outside of the Tsukiyomi's range.

And once again, Wursta fails to comprehend english properly. I told you that all VISUAL Genjutsu don't work because all VISUAL Genjutsu require some form of eye contact on DEIDARA's behalf. If he constricts his eye then all VISUAL Genjutsu are moot. Period. Finger Genjutsu is still pertaining to the visual stimuli of Deidara. He needs to see it for it to work. If he constricts his eye, it no longer works. There's no reason to believe it's exclusive to Sharingan Genjutsu, as Sharingan merely enhances normal Genjutsu as a medium, it's not a completely different type of visual Genjutsu. Readingcomphrehension101 again, I said it affects Deidara's eyes directly, and my point stands firmly because that's exactly how Finger Genjutsu is initiated.

About the range thing, did you know Katon: Gokakyuu is also listed as short-range jutsu? But hey, didn't we see a massive gap between the victim and the user in here
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and here
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? That's a nice five meters fam. Itachi should consider surgery if he's that small.

And yes, the thing about Deidara is that he doesn't take flight until he is attacked, like in these several cases
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. And the small fact is that, when Itachi attacks that one time, he is dead; by either
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,
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or wasted by his
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.

As I said, it's not a matter of how but when Deidara is taken down.
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Regarding the ranges, your points are completely moot. 5 meter is the official distance for all Close Range databook entries. In Fireball Jutsu's case, Manga disproved it and thus that range no longer stands. In Tsukiyomi's case, it hasn't been rectified. [
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][
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][
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] In the very first one, you can see that Itachi goes point blank range to cast Tsukiyomi on Sasuke, in the next one yo see another close ranged one and third is the furthest its been used; 5 meters. Until you can refute this and rectify the DB entry's range, there's nothing to discuss here whatsoever about it. Showing me Raikiri not being able to penetrate everything with ease ie his own Doton Wall won't merit the debunking of all DB entries.


The same Deidara that jumped onto his bird before he even saw Gaara [
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]? Well that was rather out of context from your part, given you're grasping at straws now. After he landed, saw Gaara [
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] and was under attack he
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. So I don't see where you're coming up with these bullshit IC traits. The only IC traits I know of are the ones which suggest Itachi never starts with his MS techniques like Sasuke does. IE he didn't use Tsukiyomi until after quite some fighting against the Jounins. IE he didn't use Amateratsu until he was losing in a Katon battle with Sasuke. So if anything, Deidara will easily get into the air. And the mere fact you brought up Susano shows your lack of understanding for Itachi's character. He has barely ever used Susano in fights, let alone the very beginning of it. I don't recall him ever initiating Susano for offensive purposes bar vs Nagato where it was at the very end of a drawn out fight. So pls, learn your character before you say opponent isn't IC flying (he is) but yours is IC starting off with MS techs. Not to mention the scan of 'superior speed' you posted was inside a Tsukiyomi. The only blitz that happened did happen because of the crows distracting Sasuke like they distracted Kabuto. So again, I recommend learning the character you intend to debate with before bringing up stuff like this to make yourself look idiotic. Furthermore, you post a scan of Itachi fighting a Kakashi Bunshin while the real Kakashi is hiding beneath the ground, and forget the fact that Deidara Nendo Bunshin feints faster than Kakashi can perceive and has the same hiding like a mole technique that Kakashi utilised. So thanks on that, it's rather useful for going airborne.

No, they are no use for Deidara. Nendo Bunshin is designed to trap him in it's body, or explode. Both of these have answers called Susanoo. If he is trapped, Itachi can cut the whole thing down as well as Deidara who hides in the bird with his blades and end Deidara there. If Deidara decides to blow up, Itachi has Susanoo for coverage and it's just a matter of time until Deidara is found and killed. The only use they could be, would be staying as a punching bag until eventually Deidara gets deaded.
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How so? Nendo Bunshins are made for Deidara to feint away, as I showed in both my first and second post. Yet you tell me they are designed to trap people. Clear retardation here. Deidara does exactly what Kakashi did to Itachi [
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][
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]. As you can see Itachi states in the VIZ that he couldn't notice the Hiding like a mole until it was too late. There's nothing stopping Deidara's Nendo Bunshin from replacing Deidara and the real Deidara burrowing underground and then coming back out of another place where he can easily go airborne and pretty much win the fight from there. If Itachi is trapped, then Deidara goes airborne and wins the fight as you have failed to refute that 100 times. @bold are you implying Deidara stays on the ground? Lmao, pls. So yes, they serve as a punching bag until Deidara goes airborne and wins the fight, you are completely right. Given Kakashi did it unnoticed, Deidara will too with his superior Nendo Bunshin feints that I have shown in my first 2 posts.

Sure, never said he doesn't know of his MS. But he'd know about it's techniques? That's a bit far fetched. Why on earth would he train his eye to breaking point if he wouldn't be able to counter Tsukuyomi anyway? Given also that not many knew about his techniques,
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in the era Deidara was still living in, until Itachi literally set the whole forest on fire. He didn't even know about the fact that Sharingan can see chakra. Although arguing about it would be pointless since Deidara still can't counter it.
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Who says he knew Itachi's MS was a Genjutsu? Deidara merely knew Itachi's was an offensive dangerous ability, so it's presumably Amateratsu. And what the actual fck? Why are you posting completely out of context scans to grasp at straws? Itachi was surprised a non-Uchiha had MS, and Kakashi was suggesting he can counter it with his MS as MS cancels it out, hence he's 'prepared'. How on earth did you imply that this meant it was a secret? It was not a secret, and literally everyone knew about it including Cee, Ay, Darui and a multitude of other people. Stop with this 'secret' bullshit. And Itachi setting the forest on fire would not make it known to the world, that is wild speculation at best and has absolutely no basis. Nobody probably even passes by that area in the first place. And yes, I already have given you the counter. Deidara uses his C1 bird and forms a barrier like clay with evenly spaced holes around this barrier for him to see. Deidara has shown the ability to create just about anything he wants at all, being microscopic clay, a massive C3 doll, a C2 dragon, C1 variants that can move like spiders, snakes, centipedes, birds, fish, jellyfish and a C4 which looks identical to Deidara. Saying he can't construct such a thing is absurd, given his C1's have had modifications depending on situation. Against Kakashi and Naruto he had his C1 bird form a mouth to keep Gaara inside, etc.

Nendo Bunshin counters all his techniques anyways, as I have proved multiple times. Nendo Bunshin gets hit and Itachi thinks hes won since he won't know Deidara can swap with Nendo's in the first place, let alone at speed Sharingan's and Byakugan's can't see. Sees Itachi's MS>Nendo Bunshin. Sees eyes bleeding> Nendo Bunshin. See's Crows>Nendo Bunshin (or just explodes them with utmost ease with his small C1's. Nendo Bunshins counter all of Itachi's MS techniques, period. Itachi will think hes winning when he's in fact fighting a clone. Against Deidara such is impossible because he can see everything from a higher altitude (Itachi's clone doesn't go invisible lmao, nor can he jump Raikage levels when Sasuke couldn't jump very high, but only could fly high).

Dude, are you joking right now? Are you telling me that
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,
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and Madara were all 5 meters away and so slow they could not evade ''Enton speed'' Amaterasu that even Gaara defended against? Amaterasu spawns literally anywhere the person looks at
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. It's not up to debate dude, it just isn't.
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Uhhh what? Are you trying to prove my point here? If Amateratsu literally spawned on you then would've had nothing to block with his shield because it would've been on him instead of close to him. Why would it be blockable by a shield if it just spawns on you instantly? It wouldn't. Same applies with Naruto. Naruto had his cloak up at the second it made contact. Yet before it was cast he didn't, so he obviously reacted to it. You can't react to something that literally spawns on you. Same applies with Ay. How come he dodged something that spawns on him? That makes no sense whatsoever. In Madara's case he couldn't have cared less, so he just absorbed it. And evidently he didn't care given his healing and absorbing powers. Gaara's auto-defence stopped Enton's speed, period. No reason for me to believe Enton is slower than Amateratsu post 5 meter spawning; none at all. So yes, it very much is up to debate as all these scans prove my point completely. Something which literally spawns at FTL speed isn't bing reacted to, let alone dodged.

Pretty nice strategy, except that I hope you don't believe Deidara being able to put his C1 bird,
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, in front of him before Itachi is able to execute Amaterasu. You are severely underestimating Amaterasu's speed here, and it is not good.
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First of all, I already told you a dome with holes will be present around Deidara as a precaution. Deidara always takes precautions as shown with his Nendo Bunshin feints, him finding Sasuke's Chidori Eiso range and staying right above it, etc. So no, it isn't being countered as you suggest it is. So he won't even need to put the bird in front of him. But again, he can because he knows about MS, and the second he sees an MS bleeding, he will know that something is coming. Amateratsu doesn't happen instantly so stop acting like it does. Every incident it has been used barring the Frog toad stomach has shown quite the prep time, more than enough for Deidara to react (assuming he does, since he already has his precautionary Dome ready. Once Itachi uses Amateratsu on Deidara's dome Deidara can jump off his bird and crash it into Itachi. That explosion would easily prompt a Susano activation given the size of the C1 bird, and the added benefits Amateratsu could provide to the explosion. Deidara would be capable of using this explosion as a smoke screen for his underground bombs to kill Itachi at that particular point. Itachi won't see anything with his Sharingan because of the explosion, so an underground attack which attacks from Susano's vulnerable spot; beneath it, would end the fight then and these, or cause Itachi to lose his legs at the very least.

Yeah, again, I hate to repeat myself but how does he use his underground explosions when there's water on terrain= It's literally a
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, and there would be mines which
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, using against someone who literally can see
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. This tactic is very useless because Itachi would be at advantage if they ever fought on land; he knows where the mines are, Deidara doesn't.
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What? There's some ground too [
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]. But your arguments are once again pathetic. How does not having control of them mean anything bad? Deidara will never be on the ground to step on them, he's airborne all match, and that's easily achieved within our previously agreed on 20 meter starting distance. I showed you he starts fights with flight against Gaara, and only didn't do so against Sasuke because of him not knowing anything about Sasuke. Once he did, he took flight. Against Itachi who he already knows about, he'll do the same from second 1. He's not an idiot, so stop treating him like one. Last time he fought Itachi it was on the ground indoors having not known anything about him, now he knows all about him and has trained to counter his style. What better then flight? And Itachi cannot see every one of them at once. He needs to be nearby as he cannot see an infinite distance into the ground, which would be the case if he's looking diagonally as the distance of seeing through pure rock would increase. Not to mention he isn't fighting while looking on the floor, you keep suggesting he can but doing that will only lead to his inevitable demise. So no, Deidara's advantage would still be strong given he can corner Itachi into a mine like he corned Sasuke who is not that much slower than him while using CM2 given the Senjutsu enhancement his Shunshin receives.

Yes he was. He was forced to go airborne because of his speed. And this was regular Sasuke,
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in terms of speed. I mean he got schooled, big time. Imagine what would happen to Deidara, especially when Sharingan can track also his movements? It's game over buddy.
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What? He fights all his opponents airborne unless they are complete scrubs that can lose to a ground-fighting Deidara. And are you implying Sasuke has no Sharingan? Lmao. Sharingan isn't doing anything, only difference here is speed but Itachi's lack of Raiton more than disadvantages that. So nah, works like before, Deidara goes airborne and couples his guided explosions with jellyfish and fish subtle bombs. Itachi cannot defuse them so he loses. Did you really not notice the level of impact these explosions had? Fish [
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] and jellyfish [
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]. One fish which can swim and explode so largely that Tobi looks like a water droplet and a Jellyfish probably imbued with C2 chakra (yes Deidara can imbue his clay with any chakra he chooses, it's not based on the size of the clay but the chakra infused [
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][
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]. The same turtle island that only had slight shakes from Hirudora's blast. So please, stop trying to make it seem like Itachi can dodge all the guided C1 birds while also somehow knowing when things are exploding from beneath him. This becomes an even more laughable matter when you realise Deidara can make a second bird and have a clone control it if he wishes
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That means Deidara is not limited to anything and can even choose to make a C2 dragon if he so pleases. What exactly would Itachi do against small C1 guided birds, C2 bombs being released from the tail of the C2 itself and fish bombs exploding from underneath?
The result would be this [
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] in which case the underground bomb would happen instantly instead since it would be a fish that Itachi doesn't even notice as it adds no different feeling than the normal water (as did the mine feel different from regular ground).

Wait, what? So he uses that jutsu on water? You do know that, that jutsu is designed to use on land right? Also, my point in the bold was, if the uses landmines, Itachi can stay on top of the water and would not activate the mines. If however, Deidara put fish in the water, by swimming like you implied (...?), that'd just mean he gets impaled by Totsuka. So I have no idea what how this tactic is useful since he can't execute it.

Look down all the time? Yeah, I don't think Sasuke was looking down the entire fight when he was evading them landmines. You know, you can see other things when you look at somewhere, other than the object you're looking at.
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Um? Wot? Why do you always appeal to ignorance when your points get debunked. I was saying he'd put the mines on the ground when you were saying he'd have to dig through the ground using Hiding like a mole. I showed you how it works and that should've been the end of it. And once again, I said the fish fuking swims. Deidara obviously does not swim, he's dropping these fish while he's airborne during every explosion that occurs.

I gave a scan in the previous paragraph where Sasuke touched a mine, so?.. You're walking right into my points. Not to mention landmines don't move, the fish do. So he'd literally need to look down all fight for him to survive against the fish bombs, and then he'd die from explosions coming from above. Your choice. Deidara can surely outlast based on the amount of chakra he expended against Sasuke, so that's that if Itachi thinks he'll use Susano all fight.

The jutsu are not to harm Deidara, but create a mist that does actually affect his sight; unless you believe he can see from mist this thick.

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And I don't know what you mean by beneath. If he wants to escape, he needs to go underground. If he releases the fish from there, Itachi can always guard himself with Susanoo but Deidara would blow himself into abyss. So I don't know how he executes it, again, because he would die if he swam up or stayed underwater.
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Still don't get your point. Are you saying Itachi will use Katon and Suiton against each other with his clone to create a mist that barely covers 1-2 meters? What's stopping Deidara's fish bombs from just exploding beneath Itachi while he's distracted using a Katon and a Suiton? It would clear the mist simultaneously. Deidara can clear the mist and attack Itachi simultaneously through his C1 guided birds too.

And again, stop appealing to ignorance. Deidara dropped his fish from his C1 bird against Sanbi. It swims and was shown to swim in the scans I have posted, the jellyfish swims, his spiders walk, his centipedes can dig through the ground. I have posted ALL of these in my posts, I don't know why you keep being such a retard and acting like you don't know what's going on. Maybe a subtle attempt at straw grasping. And stop @bold Susano now guards Itachi from underground? Deidara is no affected by his own mines if he's not stuck with shurikens in his arms and an uncontrolled bird? Please, any mine would never touch Deidara unless he was in a similar situation again like that one, which is impossible for Itachi to replicate. And again, NO SWIMMING will be done here. None at all. The only things swimming are his C1 fish. Damn man, way to show how horrendous your reading comprehension is by misconstruing half my points and effectively not having countered half my points.

TL;DR --> Itachi kills him from the start with his speed. He can either trap him in genjutsu by closing distance, impale him with Totsuka or just plain cut him down with kunai.

TL;DR --> Itachi kills him if he goes airborne too, by using his mist and Amaterasu from distance. Deidara is probably forced to jump and he gets impaled.

TL;DR --> Itachi can use finger genjutsu to K.O. him in an instant.

TL;DR --> Any explosives are tanked by Susanoo, and Deidara dies due to suicide bombing. Yay, freedom wins.

Rip Itani.
Click to expand...

Tl:DR Itachi never stats with MS ninjutsu while Deidara starts with flight.

TL:DR Anyone with a brain can logically deduce that all stimuli pertaining to the eye are useless, including finfer genjutsu (not by sound/smell/contact that's for sure.

TL:DR Susano cannot guard from beneath you inept shit.

TL:DR Itachi gets smacked and Deidei can explode the water and hold out a clay cup for drinks while Itachi will dehydrate electrolytes.
 
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