Uchihaa Sasuke
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This is a very detailed thread that debunks the downplay I usually see around.
I originally made this thread in another forum and decided that it should be here as well.
I originally made this thread in another forum and decided that it should be here as well.
.
Killer Bee almost killed Sasuke twice and he required to be saved by Taka:
And that's very true if we ignore that:
A. The Sasuke that Killer Bee was fighting was only a weakened watered-down version of Early Shippuden Sasuke:
The actual main reason why Sasuke was pushed this far by Bee is that he lost his power and was still weakened from his fight with Itachi
This statement is presented by the manga itself to explain why he underperformed in that fight but is ignored by the downplayers as if it doesn't exist.
B. That was not MS Sasuke that Bee was fighting, he barely had any MS power unlocked, nor was he Hebi, as he lost those powers in the Itachi fight, nor was he even the regular Sasuke, as he was weakened from the previous fights.
And there's a reason why Kishimoto chose to have him weakened against Bee and the Kages. It would have been a stomp in his favor if he wasn't. Those characters would have been fodderized from the get-go and never became memorable.
C. Despite that he was weakened, Killer Bee couldn't land any attacks on Sasuke without taking him off-guard:
This attack:
Was statued mid-air 5 seconds ago
Killer Bee was only able to succeed the second time when Sasuke used genjutsu and thought the fight was over and let his guard down. He had no idea perfect Jinchurikis could break out of genjutsu
This happened to other characters in other battles as well like when Kabuto split Itachi in half and when Naruto ripped Kaguya's arm and when Pain took Jiraiya's arm off, neither Kaguya nor Itachi nor Jiraiya were actually blitzed, they were taken off-guard just like Sasuke in this fight.
This is usually how superior people are defeated by inferior people in the Naruto universe:
This attack also:
Was also only possible because he let his guard down when he attacked him with his lightning-enhanced sword (which he previously thought was impossible to block) and was blocked by Killer Bee because he is a lightning user who can use the same trick, neutralizing Sasuke's attack, which left him stunned and vulnerable to attack
Sasuke used the same trick on Killer Bee moments later, allowing Jugo to tag Bee
Bee did damage weakened Sasuke, but he couldn't outclass him
D. Bee himself argued that Sasuke is the strongest one he has ever fought:
This means Bee actually regards him above alive Minato and the Raikage
E. Nothing changes the fact that Bee and 8-tails were defeated and Sasuke won that fight despite being weakened.
I know that Bee escaped, but there's nothing he could have done if he continued fighting, he lost most of his chakra to escape, while Sasuke still had Kirin to spare.
2- V2 Raikage outmatched MS Sasuke in speed and blitzed him:
This is not true either. The Raikage is not as fast as people think.
A. MS Sasuke actually did react to V2 Raikage's speed and guarded against his blitz attempt:
While the Raikage is indeed fast and nobody he encountered was able to physically dodge him besides Minato and later KCM Naruto, this doesn't really mean that his speed was beyond everyone's comprehension and nobody can react and block him, he'd be the strongest Kage if that was the case, which was never implied given the fact that Sasuke did indeed react to him and blocked his attack
*Sasuke reacts to V2 Raikage with Amaterasu, covering his ribcage while the latter is in the midst of attempting to blitz from behind*
*A second time*
Not only Sasuke, but Gaara's sand also reacted and blocked the Raikage
(Gaara's sand actually has impressive speed feats, able to keep up with Deidara who is comparable to Hebi Sasuke and Onoki's speed. Also, Gaara is the only Kage who later on reacted to fused Momoshiki)
B. The Raikage was trying to take Sasuke off-guard:
When the Raikage attacked Minato and KCM Naruto he attacked head-on in a straight line attack
Which is stated by Sasuke to be easy to counter
But when he was going against Sasuke, he was using maneuvers and trying to take him down from a blind spot.
This is totally different from what he did against Naruto and Minato. They had it easier.
And don't get me wrong, the Raikage was faster than Sasuke at that point and even his early MS's precognition, but the gap is not as large as people think. Not to the point where he is completely beyond Sasuke and his reaction speed.
C. The Raikage was only going against a premature Mangekyou. Sasuke's MS and chakra powered up many times after that fight:
Notice here after getting one Susanoo upgrade, Sasuke goes from being blitzed by a straight-line attack from Juubito to matching Juubito while he's maneuvering:
And Sasuke went through not 1 but 3 Susanoo upgrades after fighting the Raikage, there's no telling how the Raikage compares to the later versions of MS
Tobirama explains how the Mangekyou amps its user
It is a legit feat that Sasuke stormed the Kage room, cut off their flags, and almost nobody was able to react to him until he stopped and the sensors located him
Matched Danzo who is amped by Hashirama cells and likely comparable to the Raikage in speed as I'll show you
The nearly blind Sasuke who was too weakened to match Danzo:
Went toe to toe with Kakashi in the same condition (weakened, injured, and nearly blind)
And Kakashi in his turn can go toe to toe against Pain
Which means that Healthy MS Sasuke and Danzo were in a different league of speed from Kakashi, Pain, 6-tails, and SM Naruto considering that Sasuke had to be near blind to be on their level.
The Raikage's speed may have been outclassed by any version of MS Sasuke above the one he fought.
3- Sage Mode Naruto was stated by Zetsu to be stronger than Sasuke:
Zetsu's statement is taken out of context.
A. Zetsu never even watched SM Naruto fighting:
Zetsu wasn't actually present during that fight all he knows is that Naruto defeated Pain, so he assumed that he might be stronger than Sasuke
B. Zetsu was referring to 3-Tomoi Sasuke who even lost his Hebi powers, not MS, he has never seen Sasuke's MS at that point.
C. Sage Mode Naruto with intel and preparation was actually beaten by a weakened Pain, it was the Kyuubi's rampage that was winning against the deva path.
4- The Kages defeated MS Sasuke and he was saved by Gaara, Zetsu, and Obito, thus MS Sasuke is not high-Kage tier:
True. MS Sasuke is not high-Kage tier, he is demi-god tier, and as I've said before, there's a reason why the plot demanded him to be weakened.
Let's go through each Kage:
A. The Raikage:
Was being stalemated in his V2 (the strongest armor he has) by a ribcage Sasuke (the weakest Susanoo Sasuke has) and a premature MS, he couldn't deal any meaningful damage to Sasuke's ribcage, and Gaara interfered to save him:
Compare the Raikage's injuries with Sasuke's and you'll realize who was losing that battle.
B. Gaara:
Just comparing how Gaara performed against Deidara compared to Sasuke's performance, he is leagues below Hebi Sasuke:
*Gaara was beaten in his own territory in the desert by a holding-back Deidara who wasn't even prepared for that fight*
*A blood-lusted Deidara with intel, prep, and help, was beaten by a holding-back Hebi Sasuke who was trying to capture him alive and refrained from using Kirin*
He could have sliced Deidara here, but chose to punch him instead
The entire room with Gaara and the Raikage were retreating once Sasuke went to the next level:
C. Mei and Onoki:
Were going against a Sasuke who was suffering from the side-effects of using Susanoo for the first time and wasn't even interested in fighting them as his target was Danzo who was running away
Mei requires a sealed room and Sasuke to be weakened to be able to damage the ribcage Susanoo
Likewise, Onoki was only able to tag him because he was weakened
Onoki's top speed is really no different from Deidara who couldn't match Hebi Sasuke.
Notice how Deidara remarks that Onoki became faster than before for being able to match him, which means that Onoki wasn't even as fast as him when he was alive
Now imagine these dudes going against a healthy version of this Sasuke What would have happened?
D. Danzo:
Died almost 10 times to Sasuke
Danzo actually performed against Sasuke better than any other Kage could have because the side-effects of the MS were really his main weakness and Danzo's strategy depended on outlasting the MS.
5- Itachi with illness and holding back defeated Hebi Sasuke and could have killed him if he wanted:
A. Itachi had the unfair advantage of the the Mangekyou:
Sasuke struggled to beat Itachi not because Itachi was so amazing, but because Sasuke was fighting with base Sharingan against Mangekyou. A fact that Itachi himself acknowledges.
The illness only made the fight more fair.
Also, the idea that Itachi is more talented than Sasuke is not true, there are no statements that say so. It is the other way around.
B. Sasuke himself wasn't at full power in that fight:
He was fighting while in bandages from his fight with Deidara
And fighting to a large degree while reserving chakra to suppress Orochimaru's:
C. Itachi was holding back, but not to the ridiculous extent people claim him to be:
It is actually meaningless to say that Itachi was holding back when he used every ability he had in that fight. When we say Sasuke was holding back against Deidara, it is because he actually had an attack that could have killed him but didn't use it. But what could have Itachi done differently?
D. Sasuke overcame every single MS ability Itachi had:
Tsukuyomi was broken
Amaterasu was evaded:
Susanoo was obliterated
E. There's no point in that battle where Itachi had the chance to kill Sasuke even if he wanted to, as he had a counter to every MS ability, and by the time Sasuke went out of chakra, Itachi was already dying.
Ill MS Itachi is not really superior to Hebi Sasuke, and neither is prime MS Itachi superior to prime MS Sasuke.
Killer Bee almost killed Sasuke twice and he required to be saved by Taka:
And that's very true if we ignore that:
A. The Sasuke that Killer Bee was fighting was only a weakened watered-down version of Early Shippuden Sasuke:
The actual main reason why Sasuke was pushed this far by Bee is that he lost his power and was still weakened from his fight with Itachi
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This statement is presented by the manga itself to explain why he underperformed in that fight but is ignored by the downplayers as if it doesn't exist.
B. That was not MS Sasuke that Bee was fighting, he barely had any MS power unlocked, nor was he Hebi, as he lost those powers in the Itachi fight, nor was he even the regular Sasuke, as he was weakened from the previous fights.
And there's a reason why Kishimoto chose to have him weakened against Bee and the Kages. It would have been a stomp in his favor if he wasn't. Those characters would have been fodderized from the get-go and never became memorable.
C. Despite that he was weakened, Killer Bee couldn't land any attacks on Sasuke without taking him off-guard:
This attack:
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Was statued mid-air 5 seconds ago
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Killer Bee was only able to succeed the second time when Sasuke used genjutsu and thought the fight was over and let his guard down. He had no idea perfect Jinchurikis could break out of genjutsu
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This happened to other characters in other battles as well like when Kabuto split Itachi in half and when Naruto ripped Kaguya's arm and when Pain took Jiraiya's arm off, neither Kaguya nor Itachi nor Jiraiya were actually blitzed, they were taken off-guard just like Sasuke in this fight.
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This is usually how superior people are defeated by inferior people in the Naruto universe:
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This attack also:
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Was also only possible because he let his guard down when he attacked him with his lightning-enhanced sword (which he previously thought was impossible to block) and was blocked by Killer Bee because he is a lightning user who can use the same trick, neutralizing Sasuke's attack, which left him stunned and vulnerable to attack
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Sasuke used the same trick on Killer Bee moments later, allowing Jugo to tag Bee
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Bee did damage weakened Sasuke, but he couldn't outclass him
D. Bee himself argued that Sasuke is the strongest one he has ever fought:
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This means Bee actually regards him above alive Minato and the Raikage
E. Nothing changes the fact that Bee and 8-tails were defeated and Sasuke won that fight despite being weakened.
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I know that Bee escaped, but there's nothing he could have done if he continued fighting, he lost most of his chakra to escape, while Sasuke still had Kirin to spare.
2- V2 Raikage outmatched MS Sasuke in speed and blitzed him:
This is not true either. The Raikage is not as fast as people think.
A. MS Sasuke actually did react to V2 Raikage's speed and guarded against his blitz attempt:
While the Raikage is indeed fast and nobody he encountered was able to physically dodge him besides Minato and later KCM Naruto, this doesn't really mean that his speed was beyond everyone's comprehension and nobody can react and block him, he'd be the strongest Kage if that was the case, which was never implied given the fact that Sasuke did indeed react to him and blocked his attack
*Sasuke reacts to V2 Raikage with Amaterasu, covering his ribcage while the latter is in the midst of attempting to blitz from behind*
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*A second time*
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Not only Sasuke, but Gaara's sand also reacted and blocked the Raikage
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(Gaara's sand actually has impressive speed feats, able to keep up with Deidara who is comparable to Hebi Sasuke and Onoki's speed. Also, Gaara is the only Kage who later on reacted to fused Momoshiki)
B. The Raikage was trying to take Sasuke off-guard:
When the Raikage attacked Minato and KCM Naruto he attacked head-on in a straight line attack
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You must be registered for see links
Which is stated by Sasuke to be easy to counter
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But when he was going against Sasuke, he was using maneuvers and trying to take him down from a blind spot.
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This is totally different from what he did against Naruto and Minato. They had it easier.
And don't get me wrong, the Raikage was faster than Sasuke at that point and even his early MS's precognition, but the gap is not as large as people think. Not to the point where he is completely beyond Sasuke and his reaction speed.
C. The Raikage was only going against a premature Mangekyou. Sasuke's MS and chakra powered up many times after that fight:
Notice here after getting one Susanoo upgrade, Sasuke goes from being blitzed by a straight-line attack from Juubito to matching Juubito while he's maneuvering:
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And Sasuke went through not 1 but 3 Susanoo upgrades after fighting the Raikage, there's no telling how the Raikage compares to the later versions of MS
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You must be registered for see links
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Tobirama explains how the Mangekyou amps its user
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You must be registered for see links
It is a legit feat that Sasuke stormed the Kage room, cut off their flags, and almost nobody was able to react to him until he stopped and the sensors located him
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Matched Danzo who is amped by Hashirama cells and likely comparable to the Raikage in speed as I'll show you
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The nearly blind Sasuke who was too weakened to match Danzo:
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Went toe to toe with Kakashi in the same condition (weakened, injured, and nearly blind)
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And Kakashi in his turn can go toe to toe against Pain
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Which means that Healthy MS Sasuke and Danzo were in a different league of speed from Kakashi, Pain, 6-tails, and SM Naruto considering that Sasuke had to be near blind to be on their level.
The Raikage's speed may have been outclassed by any version of MS Sasuke above the one he fought.
3- Sage Mode Naruto was stated by Zetsu to be stronger than Sasuke:
Zetsu's statement is taken out of context.
A. Zetsu never even watched SM Naruto fighting:
Zetsu wasn't actually present during that fight all he knows is that Naruto defeated Pain, so he assumed that he might be stronger than Sasuke
B. Zetsu was referring to 3-Tomoi Sasuke who even lost his Hebi powers, not MS, he has never seen Sasuke's MS at that point.
C. Sage Mode Naruto with intel and preparation was actually beaten by a weakened Pain, it was the Kyuubi's rampage that was winning against the deva path.
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4- The Kages defeated MS Sasuke and he was saved by Gaara, Zetsu, and Obito, thus MS Sasuke is not high-Kage tier:
True. MS Sasuke is not high-Kage tier, he is demi-god tier, and as I've said before, there's a reason why the plot demanded him to be weakened.
Let's go through each Kage:
A. The Raikage:
Was being stalemated in his V2 (the strongest armor he has) by a ribcage Sasuke (the weakest Susanoo Sasuke has) and a premature MS, he couldn't deal any meaningful damage to Sasuke's ribcage, and Gaara interfered to save him:
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Compare the Raikage's injuries with Sasuke's and you'll realize who was losing that battle.
B. Gaara:
Just comparing how Gaara performed against Deidara compared to Sasuke's performance, he is leagues below Hebi Sasuke:
*Gaara was beaten in his own territory in the desert by a holding-back Deidara who wasn't even prepared for that fight*
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*A blood-lusted Deidara with intel, prep, and help, was beaten by a holding-back Hebi Sasuke who was trying to capture him alive and refrained from using Kirin*
He could have sliced Deidara here, but chose to punch him instead
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The entire room with Gaara and the Raikage were retreating once Sasuke went to the next level:
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C. Mei and Onoki:
Were going against a Sasuke who was suffering from the side-effects of using Susanoo for the first time and wasn't even interested in fighting them as his target was Danzo who was running away
Mei requires a sealed room and Sasuke to be weakened to be able to damage the ribcage Susanoo
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Likewise, Onoki was only able to tag him because he was weakened
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Onoki's top speed is really no different from Deidara who couldn't match Hebi Sasuke.
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Notice how Deidara remarks that Onoki became faster than before for being able to match him, which means that Onoki wasn't even as fast as him when he was alive
Now imagine these dudes going against a healthy version of this Sasuke What would have happened?
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D. Danzo:
Died almost 10 times to Sasuke
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Danzo actually performed against Sasuke better than any other Kage could have because the side-effects of the MS were really his main weakness and Danzo's strategy depended on outlasting the MS.
5- Itachi with illness and holding back defeated Hebi Sasuke and could have killed him if he wanted:
A. Itachi had the unfair advantage of the the Mangekyou:
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Sasuke struggled to beat Itachi not because Itachi was so amazing, but because Sasuke was fighting with base Sharingan against Mangekyou. A fact that Itachi himself acknowledges.
The illness only made the fight more fair.
Also, the idea that Itachi is more talented than Sasuke is not true, there are no statements that say so. It is the other way around.
B. Sasuke himself wasn't at full power in that fight:
He was fighting while in bandages from his fight with Deidara
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And fighting to a large degree while reserving chakra to suppress Orochimaru's:
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C. Itachi was holding back, but not to the ridiculous extent people claim him to be:
It is actually meaningless to say that Itachi was holding back when he used every ability he had in that fight. When we say Sasuke was holding back against Deidara, it is because he actually had an attack that could have killed him but didn't use it. But what could have Itachi done differently?
D. Sasuke overcame every single MS ability Itachi had:
Tsukuyomi was broken
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Amaterasu was evaded:
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Susanoo was obliterated
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E. There's no point in that battle where Itachi had the chance to kill Sasuke even if he wanted to, as he had a counter to every MS ability, and by the time Sasuke went out of chakra, Itachi was already dying.
Ill MS Itachi is not really superior to Hebi Sasuke, and neither is prime MS Itachi superior to prime MS Sasuke.
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