(Debate Tourney) Ballerjordan vs Transcedence / Muu vs Sandaime Raikage

Kαmi · Sep 21, 2013

Laaaaaaaaaadiees and GEN-TLE-MEN!
Welcome to what is known at the First Round of the NarutoBase Debate Tournament.

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This is match #3, here's the set up.

Location : Gaara vs Kimimaro

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Distance : 50 metres
Prep : Off
Weather : Clear

Transcendence vs Ballerjordan

Sandaime Raikage

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VS

Muu

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Judge

Kuro Kami

Rules:

Characters (already chosen so ignore)
There will be only one character in versus allowed for the first rounds to mix things up a bit we will be implementing varying limitations to stop strong character spam needless to say the juubi is off limits including everyone from the Ootsutsuki clan (first+second generation),rinnegan users and perfect sage mode users everyone else is permitted if they have been in that form in the manga.There will be two presets decided by the judges for character selection choose your own and specific group to choose from like konoha 11.

Way to win
In versus the player loses a round when they can't get out of a the situation their opponent describes for example Itachi uses Amateseru and the opponent uses Water style on himself. Another way to win is if your opponent provides false evidence that will count as being unable to defend themselves. Your posts can be disproven so be careful with what you post!

Disqualifications and Forfeiting
If a player does not stick to the the times agreed with the judges given they will be automatically disqualified barring special circumstances. You may also be disqualified for trolling, excessive abusive language , arguing against clear evidence , spamming , ignoring the post count etc. no one should have any problems following basic common sense.

Post count
5-10

Chakra Limit
Manga Feats

Time Limit
Unlimited during the tournament.

To Begin
Both debators must declare their ready.

Turns
In your draw it should be stated who is going first.

Movement
You cannot sneak attack your opponent nor can you post ridiculous movesets that they haven't shown in the manga. If they cant do it the manga don't bother ( exp . Itachi jumps back in the air using totsuka from 100 metres away) if they have done that movement in the manga its ok.

Prep
On or Off depending on participants it will be naturally Off

Knowledge
Everything

Tools and Weapons
Anything they have used in the manga

Evidence
Scans need to be provided for every point made it is not sufficient to just say Ninja X did something it must be proven without reasonable doubt like they say in court.

Hype
A lot of clear strong evidence must be provided to stand as a rule of thumb we won't accept it.

Summary
Rules will be a hypothetical fight intending to kill there will be three rounds you lose a round if your character dies not being able to defend themselves via the method you described. A vote will happen if there is no winner by the end of the post count with each judge giving one name whoever has the most votes wins that round.

And by extension

A debate would look something like this

Player A- Nagato will beat Madara because he can't stop a chibaku tensei hes also a master of yin release so Madara can't put him under genjutsu

Player B- I disagree show me where Nagato is a yin release master (requests evidence) also Madara could slice Chibaku tensei in half with perfect susanoo( provides evidence) how could Nagato block a blow from perfect susanoo?

Player A- ( provides evidence for yin release)Nagato could just use Asura path to block perfect susanoo etc. etc.

Player B- Asura can't block perfect susanoo( shows evidence) (requests a round win)

Judges award Player B the round

Two main ways you can win

-Proving that a opponent can't block a move you put forward

-Disproving the evidence your opponent has given

Transcedence will be making the first move.

Keep it clean guys. No character bashing, no member bashing, and please abide by the rules of the site.given

Transcendence · Sep 22, 2013

The Sandaime Raikage

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Location

First and foremost, we must assess the location. The location is the site of Gaara (Lee as well) vs Kimmimaro. Knowing this, we also know that the fight in general that took place there, minus the application of Gaara's Sand Based Ninjutsu was largely close quarters, Taijutsu based fighting; displayed by Rock Lee, Naruto (Uzumaki Barrage technique) and Kimmimaro with his clans KKG. While this doesn't necessarily benefit the Sandaime entirely, the battlefield is in a rough open scope giving plenty of space to dodge with his enhanced speed and reflexes courtesy of his Lightning Cloak (V1 Stage).

Dangerous abilities courtesy of Muu:

Muu has two very potent abilities that can ultimately deter the Sandaime from a win; Jinton AND Invisibility. However... While these may be potent, there are counters available for the Sandaime because of the inherent effects behind them and the Third's own abilities.

Jinton's inherent weakness lies in the application of the technique; it needs to be used with your hands and it can be swayed from an external stimuli (Jutsu, physical confrontation etc.) as seen in these two succeeding scans:

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As seen so brilliantly here, Ohnoki who's Jinton has no notable differences from Muu's besides inherent shape, was affected by the intervention of Kitsuchi. This goes to show that, if any external stimuli (Like jutsu used by the Sandaime) is applied, it can potentially (high potential) affected the charging of Jinton from the user and negate the use completely.

Moreover, the use of Jinton isn't particularly fast as some may be lead to believe. Muu was attempting to thwart the efforts of Gaara and Ohnoki by using Jinton, but the intervention of Naruto thwarted that, but if the technique were to be of faster merit, he would have gotten it off before Naruto bewildered him as seen here:

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To add further to this, the previous scans, where Muu is charging Jinton, imply that the charging of Jinton is slower than normally perceived, as even after 2-3 pages, he wasn't fully charging a Jinton prior to the sensing of Naruto behind him:

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Now, this is probably the most debatable point of all, but in comparison to what I will compare it to, it may have some merit. Jinton may or may not be a fast attack AFTER ACTIVATION, so dodging it, is debatable. But if anyone can dodge such an attack, it is the Sandaime Raikage with his immense reflexes amplified by his Lightning Shroud (V1).

In these following scans he managed to dodge FRS despite being blinded in the beginning and then having it redirected at him again from behind.

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Now... The application of Fuuton: Rasenshuriken is coming from a Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto, who's mode is noted to have enhanced physical power, speed, chakra reserves etc. Now with this physical power boost, it stands to be shown that his throwing power in reference to the velocity of the thrown FRS, must be very strong and the velocity on the FRS must be very high from such a distance to reach the Sandaime. In contrast to Jinton, we've only seen Jinton be mildly threatening if it is a short to medium distance type scenario where the use of the technique is more or so guaranteed.

To further assess the speed and or velocity of FRS coming from Naruto in contrast to Jinton's speed we can reference one of the Pein's

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Even with the aid from two other paths, one of the paths was ultimately annihilated by FRS's destructive capacity. This coming from a SM Naruto who is regarded as much weaker than KCM Naruto. It is a testament to the Sandaime's reflexes in his Lightning Shroud that he was not only able to dodge it once at such velocity, BUT TWICE. Jinton's application, with the deterrent from its slower activation seems to be much slower overall in comparison to a faster moving FRS which was ultimately evaded by the Sandaime.

Small tidbit:

Muu's mastery in Ninjutsu is absolutely useless beyond Jinton because of the Nature clash between him and the Sandaime. Not only does the Sandaime have obscene durability:

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But the inherent nature class between them (Doton vs Raiton) is ludicrous to compare because Raiton inherently counters Doton because of the elemental clashing.

In short; Besides Jinton, no Ninjutsu would be effective against the Sandaime because of his durability and his chakra nature which counters Muu's.

His ability to fly is obviously the worst part for Sandaime, but the Raikage has a counter for it that will keep Muu on his toes for a while; BLACK LIGHTNING. A raiton technique that the Raikage was known for. One of his past subordinates, Darui inherited the very prestigious ability. But what is the problem? Muu can get within LONG RANGE. But guess what? The application of Black Lightning has been shown to have more than enough range to combat a long range user as seen here:

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Notice how far Kakuzu and the Zetsu's are in the second scan which is post Black Lightning use. That is a testament to the range of the technique, which probably isn't even the full range; which can be longer if needed to (assumption).

What makes this even more potent is the versatility of the shape of Black Lightning. Through Darui’s use, we have seen that the technique is particularly flexible and can move around in mid air at the will of the user. The Sandaime will have no problem targeting and moving the technique in the air and hitting Muu. Even if it were to not make contact, he can stop Muu’s use of Jinton by using this against him and stopping the Jinton charge up (Which is particularly long in its own right; in the context of this fast paced fight). To support this Naruto managed to disrupt Muu while he was charging Jinton. (This also adds on to the other pre-established point earlier about disrupting Jinton with the use of outside stimuli)

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The most "secretive" technique, that I would like to call it, is invisibility from Muu. With this ability, Muu can completely mask his chakra and his physical (corporeal form) essence from his surroundings to get away and or surprise attack an opponent... However, there is one downfall to this ability that the Sandaime can exploit; Muu has to become tangible to use any Ninjutsu

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And in the following chapter, Muu is fully tangible, and is now able to use Ninjutsu, in which he initiates the Edo Tensai summoning of the Second Mizukage, Sandaime Raikage AND Yondaime Kazekage:

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Notice; he is fully tangible. Nothing suggests he can actually use Ninjutsu while invisible, given the fact that, if his entire chakra essence is vanished during the technique, the application of Jinton or any Ninjutsu based technique is impossible with the lack of chakra; hence why he needs to become fully tangible to use any form of ninjutsu (as seen in the above scan).

With this knowledge, we can almost instantaneously rule out a surprise attack and once Muu were to become visible/tangible, the enhanced reflexes of the Lightning Shroud of the Raikage will allow the Sandaime to take action and evade any attack (and possibly counter attack with a Nukite piercing).

Probably the least effective ability of Muu's effective abilities is the ability to split (Fission). Why you ask? Because it doesn't allow him to use Jinton, which is his only effective attack against the durable Sandaime Raikage.

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At that point, if Muu decides to split, it is basically suicide against the faster, more physically imposing Raikage. Without the use of Jinton, Muu cannot hope to dent the Sandaime at all and it would become a game of cat and mouse with the cat (Raikage) inevitably reaching its prey; the mouse (Muu).

Moreover, the Sandaime was noted to fight 10000 Ninja (Assumed fodder) for 3 days and nights. With this particular feat, we can assume he has better stamina on top of the already mentioned massive durability. If worst comes to worst, he can simply outlast Muu in this battle.

I'm not really good with openings, if I may add.

But in conclusion (to the opening):

- Jinton is evaded and or anticipated through the various means described here.
- Invisibility has deterrents which prohibit the use of harmful Ninjutsu against the Raikage and in which he can evade once his Lightning Shroud enhanced reflexes kick in
- Splitting (fission) is absolute suicide against the Raikage due to Muu have no access to damaging techniques after it.
- The Raikage can incessantly OHKO Muu under splitting circumstances and can evade and or anticipate Jinton because of V1's immense reflexes that let him dodge the implied FASTER technique Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken, thrown by a superior KCM Naruto.

ballerjordan · Sep 22, 2013

Nice opening, Tran =D. There are some flaws in it which I would like to address.

First and foremost, we must assess the location. The location is the site of Gaara (Lee as well) vs Kimmimaro. Knowing this, we also know that the fight in general that took place there, minus the application of Gaara's Sand Based Ninjutsu was largely close quarters, Taijutsu based fighting; displayed by Rock Lee, Naruto (Uzumaki Barrage technique) and Kimmimaro with his clans KKG. While this doesn't necessarily benefit the Sandaime entirely, the battlefield is in a rough open scope giving plenty of space to dodge with his enhanced speed and reflexes courtesy of his Lightning Cloak (V1 Stage).

The landscape doesn't necessarily only benefit the Sandaime, its an open field. The open field will be one of the Thirds biggest disadvantages since Muu can use his invisibility to its fullest potential.

Muu has two very potent abilities that can ultimately deter the Sandaime from a win; Jinton AND Invisibility. However... While these may be potent, there are counters available for the Sandaime because of the inherent effects behind them and the Third's own abilities. Jinton's inherent weakness lies in the application of the technique; it needs to be used with your hands and it can be swayed from an external stimuli (Jutsu, physical confrontation etc.) as seen in these two succeeding scans:[/FONT][/COLOR]

As seen so brilliantly here, Ohnoki who's Jinton has no notable differences from Muu's besides inherent shape, was affected by the intervention of Kitsuchi. This goes to show that, if any external stimuli (Like jutsu used by the Sandaime) is applied, it can potentially (high potential) affected the charging of Jinton from the user and negate the use completely.[/FONT]

Sorry, but this tactic will have little effect on Mu. Sandaime has absolutely no means of figuring out where Mu is, and the only way to stop Mu's jinton is via black lightning which we know that Darui specializes in. We already know that both Ohnoki and Muu are long range fighters, the only reason Ohnoki's jinton was halted against Kabuto was because of Akatsuchi (comrade) already behind him.

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Ohnoki would never have expected a comrade to stop his attack, and because he was behind him.

Moreover, the use of Jinton isn't particularly fast as some may be lead to believe. Muu was attempting to thwart the efforts of Gaara and Ohnoki by using Jinton, but the intervention of Naruto thwarted that, but if the technique were to be of faster merit, he would have gotten it off before Naruto bewildered him as seen here:[/FONT][/COLOR]

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Jinton has a decent charge time, but once its finished, the technique can be fired with astonishing speed.

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To add further to this, the previous scans, where Muu is charging Jinton, imply that the charging of Jinton is slower than normally perceived, as even after 2-3 pages, he wasn't fully charging a Jinton prior to the sensing of Naruto behind him

As you can see here, Mu is preparing his Jinton

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. KCM Naruto comes in behind him, and Mu without even looking effortlessly dodges Naruto, but his Jinton has disappeared

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. And then Mu starts to prep Jinton again after dodging Naruto, but he underestimates his chakra arms

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. This tactic would have never worked for the Sandaime since he cannot redirect himself in mid-air, KCM Naruto was only able to do this thanks to Gaara's sand. A physical confrontation to stop Jinton will be a suicidal move for the Third, since Mu's amazing reaction time and sensing will dodge him, and immediately recharge another Jinton. Sandaime will have nothing to redirect himself with, and thus getting hit by Jinton.

Now, this is probably the most debatable point of all, but in comparison to what I will compare it to, it may have some merit. Jinton may or may not be a fast attack AFTER ACTIVATION, so dodging it, is debatable. But if anyone can dodge such an attack, it is the Sandaime Raikage with his immense reflexes amplified by his Lightning Shroud (V1). In these following scans he managed to dodge FRS despite being blinded in the beginning and then having it redirected at him again from behind.

The Sandaime wasn't completely blinded. Temari even managed to tell that it was Naruto (in KCM form), and also distinguish a new rasengan. This could have been seen coming from miles, the next part is a better feat for the Sandaime.

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Now... The application of Fuuton: Rasenshuriken is coming from a Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto, who's mode is noted to have enhanced physical power, speed, chakra reserves etc. Now with this physical power boost, it stands to be shown that his throwing power in reference to the velocity of the thrown FRS, must be very strong and the velocity on the FRS must be very high from such a distance to reach the Sandaime. In contrast to Jinton, we've only seen Jinton be mildly threatening if it is a short to medium distance type scenario where the use of the technique is more or so guaranteed.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

KCM increases his throwing speed, distance, and overall throwing power. The overall distance of the FRS was increased and also thanks to chakra arms. We already know that Jinton can easily cover that much distance

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, and there is a second offensive jinton variant that can easily take care of a brute like the Third, and his tendency to tank attacks.

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Even with the aid from two other paths, one of the paths was ultimately annihilated by FRS's destructive capacity. This coming from a SM Naruto who is regarded as much weaker than KCM Naruto. It is a testament to the Sandaime's reflexes in his Lightning Shroud that he was not only able to dodge it once at such velocity, BUT TWICE. Jinton's application, with the deterrent from its slower activation seems to be much slower overall in comparison to a faster moving FRS which was ultimately evaded by the Sandaime.

I disagree with these two points. We already know that SM Naruto is more powerful than KCM, what KCM makes up for lack of strength is speed and diversity in techniques. SM Naruto's FRS should be atleast slightly stronger since it is enhanced with senjutsu, and has a larger aoe than KCM Naruto before the initial explosion.

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And @ the faster moving FRS is invalid. Naruto's first attack from the FRS that Sandaime dodges is enhanced with chakra arms which affects the actual moving speed of the FRS

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. Why? It gives more range and speed to the FRS

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His ability to fly is obviously the worst part for Sandaime, but the Raikage has a counter for it that will keep Muu on his toes for a while; BLACK LIGHTNING. A raiton technique that the Raikage was known for. One of his past subordinates, Darui inherited the very prestigious ability. But what is the problem? Muu can get within LONG RANGE. But guess what? The application of Black Lightning has been shown to have more than enough range to combat a long range user as seen here

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Notice how far Kakuzu and the Zetsu's are in the second scan which is post Black Lightning use. That is a testament to the range of the technique, which probably isn't even the full range; which can be longer if needed to (assumption)

What makes this even more potent is the versatility of the shape of Black Lightning. Through Darui’s use, we have seen that the technique is particularly flexible and can move around in mid air at the will of the user. The Sandaime will have no problem targeting and moving the technique in the air and hitting Muu. Even if it were to not make contact, he can stop Muu’s use of Jinton by using this against him and stopping the Jinton charge up (Which is particularly long in its own right; in the context of this fast paced fight). To support this Naruto managed to disrupt Muu while he was charging Jinton. (This also adds on to the other pre-established point earlier about disrupting Jinton with the use of outside stimuli)

Black lightning, eh. Third Raikage with black lightning is featless, for all we know, Darui is probably a far better black lightning user than him. Why? First, Darui actually has feats. Second. Darui specializes in black lightning and storm release, whereas Sandaime has other areas where he is superior such as lightning cloak, taijutsu, hell stab, etc. I don't think black lightning should count simply because the Third has shown zero feats supporting it.

Muu's mastery in Ninjutsu is absolutely useless beyond Jinton because of the Nature clash between him and the Sandaime. Not only does the Sandaime have obscene durability

Indeed the Sandaime has crazy durability, but there are some points you haven't looked properly. Here, the Third is hit with the

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. After getting hit, his lightning cloak is gone completely and his body has

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. The only reason he survived was because his body was strong enough to tank it. One Jinton hit that damages on a molecular level, and its over for the Sandaime.

The most "secretive" technique, that I would like to call it, is invisibility from Muu. With this ability, Muu can completely mask his chakra and his physical (corporeal form) essence from his surroundings to get away and or surprise attack an opponent... However, there is one downfall to this ability that the Sandaime can exploit; Muu has to become tangible to use any Ninjutsu

And in the following chapter, Muu is fully tangible, and is now able to use Ninjutsu, in which he initiates the Edo Tensai summoning of the Second Mizukage, Sandaime Raikage AND Yondaime Kazekage:

Notice; he is fully tangible. Nothing suggests he can actually use Ninjutsu while invisible, given the fact that, if his entire chakra essence is vanished during the technique, the application of Jinton or any Ninjutsu based technique is impossible with the lack of chakra; hence why he needs to become fully tangible to use any form of ninjutsu (as seen in the above scan).

With this knowledge, we can almost instantaneously rule out a surprise attack and once Muu were to become visible/tangible, the enhanced reflexes of the Lightning Shroud of the Raikage will allow the Sandaime to take action and evade any attack (and possibly counter attack with a Nukite piercing).

This is exactly why Mu wins this. Mu knows exactly how to take advantage of his abilities

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. What are the odds of Sandaime spotting Mu in the air before Jinton is fired at him? Mu can turn invisible quite early and fast

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Probably the least effective ability of Muu's effective abilities is the ability to split (Fission). Why you ask? Because it doesn't allow him to use Jinton, which is his only effective attack against the durable Sandaime Raikage.

At that point, if Muu decides to split, it is basically suicide against the faster, more physically imposing Raikage. Without the use of Jinton, Muu cannot hope to dent the Sandaime at all and it would become a game of cat and mouse with the cat (Raikage) inevitably reaching its prey; the mouse (Muu).

Moreover, the Sandaime was noted to fight 10000 Ninja (Assumed fodder) for 3 days and nights. With this particular feat, we can assume he has better stamina on top of the already mentioned massive durability. If worst comes to worst, he can simply outlast Muu in this battle.

Splitting is actually one of Mu's best options against a dumb brute like the Third. With fission, Mu can split himself, but costing him to be only half powered. Doing this in the last second against KCM Naruto

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and this would easily trick the Third making him think that he's won. All Mu has to do is go back to his clone and reform into one being while he's invisible, the only reason Mu wasn't able to do so was because of his split half being sealed. The Third does not have any fuinjutsu to completely stop Mu from getting his other half.

Muu honestly takes this. Sandaime has no means of detecting Mu in the air and dodge/counter the Jinton coming at him and no realistic way of hitting Mu in the air.

Transcendence · Sep 22, 2013

I must say Baller, you truly are very underrated. I knew all that talk in the Discussion Section wasn't for nothing

. But you seem to have disregarded some of my points in favor of attempting to win this argument, in which I will attempt to exploit..

The landscape doesn't necessarily only benefit the Sandaime, its an open field. The open field will be one of the Thirds biggest disadvantages since Muu can use his invisibility to its fullest potential.

That is precisely what I meant. I said in the opening that the battle that transpired there was a mostly Taijutsu based battle, in which Taijutsu mainly thrived. I will admit, it being an open field also benefits Muu, but less so than you want to believe, since with it being an open field, once Muu becomes tangible/visible, he will be clear as day, as opposed to the War Arc fight, where he could become tangible behind various pieces of landscapes because of the nature of the area they were in (The desert).

Sorry, but this tactic will have little effect on Mu. Sandaime has absolutely no means of figuring out where Mu is, and the only way to stop Mu's jinton is via black lightning which we know that Darui specializes in. We already know that both Ohnoki and Muu are long range fighters, the only reason Ohnoki's jinton was halted against Kabuto was because of Akatsuchi (comrade) already behind him. [1] Ohnoki would never have expected a comrade to stop his attack, and because he was behind him.

He doesn't need to figure out where Muu is, especially in this location. Wherever he becomes visible/tangible, he will be in plain light for the Sandaime to react. The only reason it was effective in evading the incoming Kages was because (I will regurgitate this once more) of the nature of the location, seeing as how he could become visible behind cover as opposed to the wide open location here.

I know that his only way to DETER, not stop Jinton, is the use of Black Lightning, so I don't know why you say that. I clearly displayed here via these two scans:

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That the distance from Darui's use of the technique and Kakuzu was rather far, easy enough to categorize it as a long range technique (which it is described as in the wikia, but that isn't of merit due to the website itself). In the second scan especially, is the aftermath of the technique and they are still rather far, that means the initial use (scan 1) was even farther than the aftermath (obviously...), so long range tactics against Muu won't be hard with such a versatile technique at the Sandaime's disposal.

I use Ohnoki's comrade as an example to prove the use of outside stimuli deters the use of Jinton (preparation for the technique). This was further proven when Muu sensed Naruto behind him, and he had to halt Jinton entirely. The nature of black lightning; both the range and flexibility should be more than enough to deter Muu from charging Jinton. We must not forget the Area of Effect it has too; reference the second scan. ALL THE ZETSU WERE HIT. That is some serious AoE for a long range technique that isn't coming from an Obito or Naruto..

Jinton has a decent charge time, but once its finished, the technique can be fired with astonishing speed. [2]

You're under the assumption that the Sandaime would let him fire it off in the first place. Everything in the opening was geared against the use of Jinton, as that is the only ability that threatens the Sandaime's win in this scenario. Rather than having astonishing speed, the charge time, which I displayed to take MORE THAN 3 PAGES, is much less faster than the use of the technique, and thus can be deterred by the various means I described.

As seen here (Muu and Naruto scenario):

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By the THIRD PAGE Muu wasn't done charging Jinton. And it was only in the third page that he finally noticed Naruto, meaning there was nothing deterring him from charging it as fast as he could (as he had Gaara and Ohnoki after him the entire time). He cancelled it after Naruto's intervention, but up until then it exemplifies the slow nature of the techniques charging which can easily be exploited by the Sandaime's faster arsenal.

As you can see here, Mu is preparing his Jinton [3]. KCM Naruto comes in behind him, and Mu without even looking effortlessly dodges Naruto, but his Jinton has disappeared [4]. And then Mu starts to prep Jinton again after dodging Naruto, but he underestimates his chakra arms [5]. This tactic would have never worked for the Sandaime since he cannot redirect himself in mid-air

Very good point if I may say, but you're forgetting how I displayed the flexibility of Black Lightning. Darui who inherited it from the Sandaime was able to direct the technique against multiple enemies. In the scenario you described, Gaara's sand helped redirect Naruto, but the Sandaime doesn't need someone to redirect him as he can simply redirect his own technique, Black Lightning, to completely deter the use of Jinton.

A physical confrontation to stop Jinton will be a suicidal move for the Third, since Mu's amazing reaction time and sensing will dodge him, and immediately recharge another Jinton. Sandaime will have nothing to redirect himself with, and thus getting hit by Jinton.

You mean the same person who thrives on close quarters combat and has a OHKO close quarters move? If that ever happens, the Sandaime already wins, as he is much faster on the ground and the charging of Jinton will once again be negated by the use of Black Lightning.

And before you say "Well he can't spam Black Lightning", this is the same person who fought for 3 DAYS against 10000 Shinobi (assumed fodder). His own son who inherited his genes, was noted to have Bijuu chakra levels in V2. He won't have as much chakra strain in V1 so that gives him more leeway to use more chakra for the continued use of Black Lightning.

I disagree with these two points. We already know that SM Naruto is more powerful than KCM, what KCM makes up for lack of strength is speed and diversity in techniques. SM Naruto's FRS should be atleast slightly stronger since it is enhanced with senjutsu, and has a larger aoe than KCM Naruto before the initial explosion. [8] [9]

How so? Look at what KCM Naruto was able to do when he JUST ATTAINED THE MODE:

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Pushing back a fully formed TBB into a barrier and UPPERCUTTING THE GEDO MAZO, which is far larger than any feat seen by SM Naruto (best strength feat was lifting the Rhino which is FAR SMALLER than the Gedo Mazo in comparison)

And @ the faster moving FRS is invalid. Naruto's first attack from the FRS that Sandaime dodges is enhanced with chakra arms which affects the actual moving speed of the FRS [10]. Why? It gives more range and speed to the FRS as seen here

Actually, no. It doesn't affect the speed of the FRS. The inherent strength of KCM (displayed above as well) lets him throw it with far more velocity. The chakra arms allowed Naruto to redirect the attack at Muu to end him quickly. They affect his control of his techniques after he has used them, not their velocity. Although, within range (when he's near it); they do affect it, but not the range it covers as that is a by-product by the throwing speed from the initial throw of FRS.

KCM increases his throwing speed, distance, and overall throwing power. The overall distance of the FRS was increased and also thanks to chakra arms.

Already covered above. The range? No. The effective range capacity? Yes, as it allowed him to redirect the attack to hit him.

The Sandaime wasn't completely blinded. Temari even managed to tell that it was Naruto (in KCM form), and also distinguish a new rasengan. This could have been seen coming from miles, the next part is a better feat for the Sandaime.

I never said he was completely blinded. If anything, it was more of a bothersome action by Temari when she used her technique, but the Sandaime didn't have full clarity at all in the situation, and the fact that he dodged the FRS under those conditions is a testament to his reaction skills.

We already know that Jinton can easily cover that much distance [6], and there is a second offensive jinton variant that can easily take care of a brute like the Third, and his tendency to tank attacks. [7]

In such a location? There will be nothing to deter the third's eyesight at all. The Sandaime will have full clarity and will know when Muu is charging/about to use Jinton. He can/will simply reply with any variant of Black Lightning and close in on Muu, forcing Muu on the defensive.

Black lightning, eh. Third Raikage with black lightning is featless, for all we know, Darui is probably a far better black lightning user than him.

Invalid. He inherited it directly from the Third Raikage. A matter of feats would be arguing semantics, but it was his SIGNATURE TECHNIQUE, in which Darui inherited. To say Darui is a better user is an act of fallacy seeing as we don't have proof that he's better or worse, but the burden of proof is on you in this case to prove Darui is better/the Sandaime is worse. We know he is a user of the technique, so we can assume, that the only use in the series is equal to and or better than what we've seen given that he was a High Kage level Ninja who developed the technique himself.

don't think black lightning should count simply because the Third has shown zero feats supporting it.

The fact that Darui inherited from the person in question clearly means it is part of the Sandaime's arsenal. That argument is invalid in case.

Indeed the Sandaime has crazy durability, but there are some points you haven't looked properly. Here, the Third is hit with the KCM FRS. After getting hit, his lightning cloak is gone completely and his body has signs of damage all over. The only reason he survived was because his body was strong enough to tank it. One Jinton hit that damages on a molecular level, and its over for the Sandaime.

Hence why I said, "Minus Jinton", Muu can't damage the Sandaime. Jinton is the only thing that can end the Raikage, everything else that Muu uses is useless in the face of his durable body. And FRS is extremely similar to Jinton as it cuts at a CELLULAR LEVEL, close to Molecular level and he came out fine. I won't doubt that he won't tank Jinton, but the main point in this is to deter Muu's use of the technique.

This is exactly why Mu wins this. Mu knows exactly how to take advantage of his abilities [11]. What are the odds of Sandaime spotting Mu in the air before Jinton is fired at him? Mu can turn invisible quite early and fast [12]

Completely agree, but this is why I assessed the location prior to my opening. In the location there is clear clarity all around. Obviously going invisible is very potent, but Muu needs to become tangible to use Ninjutsu at all, and with the clear area, the Sandaime should be able to notice him and react to him as opposed to the location we are basing this off of (Desert), where the clarity is clouded by moving Sand, bad breathing conditions, and large pieces of rocky landscape (and this is before Shinobi start battling and damaging the landscape even more).

Splitting is actually one of Mu's best options against a dumb brute like the Third. With fission, Mu can split himself, but costing him to be only half powered.

Without being full powered he can't do anything to harm the Sandaime at all AND:

Doing this in the last second against KCM Naruto without even looking and this would easily trick the Third making him think that he's won.

There's nowhere to hide in this location as opposed to a desert.

All Mu has to do is go back to his clone and reform into one being while he's invisible, the only reason Mu wasn't able to do so was because of his split half being sealed

He needs to become tangible to use Ninjutsu as stated and this applies to reforming with his split clone. You think a Kage level ninja wouldn't notice someone fusing with another body? Nukite ends Muu right then and there.

(Debate Tourney) Ballerjordan vs Transcedence / Muu vs Sandaime Raikage

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Kαmi

Kage in the Making 👑

Transcendence

Kage in the Making 👑

ballerjordan

Banned

Transcendence

Kage in the Making 👑