[Debate Tournament] Bijuu Bomber vs Anub / Kakuzu vs Sage Mode Jiraiya

[illidanson]

Kakuzu > Jiraiya so Biju Bomber wins. C:

So... I was wondering:

YOU FREAKING SERIOUS!?

Only if we were talking Base Jiraya.

SM Jiraya is simply on another level than Kakuzu.

He'd take him low diff.

 

[NewKageism]

Loving the RP beforehand...

And whats with all the Kakuzu match-ups :|


Feels like everyone has one but me :'(

Which RP you talking about? The one with KGB sniffing the Cocaine, before writing the story line, let me reminded you it was simply amazing the story that is. I was like wut. Then I smiled. Then I got popcorn. Or the Rape seen that took place on Bijuu Bomber, aka baby girl.

Either way I am liking both. Anub rep for the 2008 people they are like the saiyan race non existent. So do it Kakarot!

 

[Shura]

So... I was wondering:

YOU FREAKING SERIOUS!?

Only if we were talking Base Jiraya.

SM Jiraya is simply on another level than Kakuzu.

He'd take him low diff.

Yes, I am freaking serious and it's obvious that your knowledge on Kakuzu is shit if you say that Jiraiya takes him with low diff. Kakuzu beats Jiraiya.

 

[Anub]

Here I go. I'll keep it simple and quick: Jirayia will pay Kakuzu to lose this fight. 1posted =D

For real:

We need to understand that there is no knowledge on either of the characters, so they'll be going into this fight without any prep time. Jirayia starts off in SM, meaning that he's got Ma and Pa. Kakuzu is in his normal form.

Jirayia's normal approach to a fight will most likely have him on guard constantly, looking for any opening that the opponent might create. His most likely move would be Raging Lion's Mane Technique (

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). This would most likely be the "tester" technique J-man would pick to test out Kakuzu and what he can do. It's long range so he can't be affected too much really. We saw that the jutsu is strong enough to take care of a large summoning so it will AT LEAST push Kakuzu back and force his to use his full potential (all masks).

If Kakuzu doesn't transform from the beginning and Jirayia's jutsu doesn't work, he'll most likely know that Kakuzu is indeed very very tough, so he'll probably continue with Hermit Art - Deep Fryer (

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).

Of course, in case Kakuzu does indeed split, that jutsu alone will be enough to take care of at least one body. In case that isn't enough and Kakuzu DID split, J-man's move will be Hair Needle Barrage (

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), stated to be his FASTEST move that covers a wide range, also buying him some time for Ma and Pa to use their sound genjutsu, which will ultimately end Kakuzu.

In case Kakuzu attack with any/all of his masks, he can't do much damage. Kakashi was fast enough to avoid too much harm from any of his jutsus and even fast enough to get in front of his allies and protect them :

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and

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.

Sage Mode Jirayia has proven to be faster than Pain's bodies

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. So in case any of the masks attack, he should have NO problem deflecting them using his speed to evade, Hair Needle Barrier to counter-attack and Oodama Rasengan (

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) in case he gets closer to any of the masks (which should be enough to destroy them). But if he really gets overrun and the masks as too much to handle, he will simply run (like he did against Pain, no need for scan really) and set up the genjutsu from a further distance.

I promised I would keep this quick so I won't continue. I prefer to counter, not open, so I'll leave it to you.

P.S. As you may have noticed, I avoided insinuating too much from what Kakuzu does/can do and will continue to do so, because my character has no knowledge on yours. I am simply fighting from his perspective, with some added knowledge from me as a debater.

 

[Bijuu Bomber]

Really nice opening Anub. I'll try to get and make my counter as soon as I can, but I got to display a lot of stuff as Kakuzu's techniques and such are scattered everywhere. Make take a bit, heck might even not get it done til tomorrow.

 

[Anub]

I don't mind. Just be gentle with your counterh:

 

[Bijuu Bomber]

Kakuzu v. Jiraiya​

Well since Anub has made a certain type of style to the debate, short sweet and to the point, I suppose I'll do the same.

While both Jiraiya and Kakuzu are mainly mid range/close range fighters, since it's no intel on the other this battle'll most likely be determined by the control of the battlefield, which with Kakuzu's many techniques, abilities, and feats, should be able to not a problem, so I'll be displaying a lot of circumstances in battle if happened and post Kakuzu's feats and techs to counter or win in said circumstance, so I'll start with close range combat seeing as how it's the most standard.

Close Range - Taijutsu, and Overall Strength​

Since Jiraiya has Sage Mode his strength, speed, and overall stamina has been increased (no manga scan needed, basic knowledge) so many would think in close range Jiraiya would take the circumstance no problem, while convincing, wouldn't be the case in my view.

Since Jiraiya's Sage Mode gives him enhanced strength and durability he is quite a tank, but Kakuzu has basically a physical tech that can basically even the odds, Earth Spear can harden his skin and make him basically a physical nearly indestructible badass.

Spoiler

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It has not just durability, but strength as well, able to basically destroy giant iron doors with little effort. Making their strength and durability 1:1.

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While that shows that physically they're equal, their overall Taijutsu and abilities mid-fight determines the circumstance. Kakuzu has been shown to be equal and if not greater, in Taijutsu to Kakashi's which is quite a feat. Although Jiraiya basically knowing "Frog Fu" kinda equalizes it, but Kakuzu's tentacles or "threads" can be used to restrain the enemy with Jiraiya being no exception. Since Jiraiya has no intel about said threads it'll most likely not be prepared for it, like every other ninja seeing it.

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And with that link showing his multiple hearts I'll go into the mid range/ninjutsu aspect of the fight.

Mid Range - Control of Battle and Ninjutsu​

While Jiraiya containing Ma and Pa to expand his jutsu such as well as being extra help in him examining the field. Kakuzu's main threat that can cost Jiraiya his control is his hearts. Them being separate entities and able to move and attack on their own is basically 1 v 4 with Kakuzu being in advantage of control due to not just him being a threat.

While you have shown Jiraiya's tech's that can be useful in gaining ground like Hermit Art - Deep Fryer, Kakuzu has similar, if not more effective jutsu and techs to even out the ground and even gain control.

Since his hearts have multiple Nature affinities, he basically has use of all Nature types on the field: Katon, Fuuton, Raiton while his Doton isn't really that needed.

Mid Range Part 2 - Katon, Fuuton, Raiton Jutsu​

With basically all Natures at his disposal he has made basically all uses of Nature advantage an easy feat. His Katon - Searing Migraine is an immense distance and range technique able to basically cover a forest, more than enough for gaining the upper hand.

Spoiler

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His Fuuton jutsu, Fuuton - Pressure Damage, is a high density jutsu that is without a doubt one of the strongest Fuuton techniques in the series, blasting through solid tree with no effort and even having the range and destructive damage as the Fuuton Rasen Shuriken.

Spoiler

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His Raiton Technique, Raiton - False Darkness, is basically a direct blast and ray of Lightning, able of cutting through rock and other things. A very powerful technique for attempting a direct attack.

Spoiler

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While all effective jutsu at controlling the field, the best thing about the hearts is that they can combine together, and with that, combine techs as well, making most counters to the jutsus non effective unless you have both nature counters, which is highly unlikely in a case like Jiraiya.

Since they both have no knowledge of either's abilites, Jiraiya and Kakuzu would have to gain victory through the control of the field, which with all jutsus and effectiveness shown above, Kakuzu holds it easily.

Conclusion ( as of now )​

With the battle containing no intel on the other, the control of field is a huge subject and importance of the battle itself. While I haven't even went into the Transformation that Kakuzu holds, I'm mainly making this counteraction at the moment to show the counters of Jiraiya's role in his fighting and handling. Kakuzu is basically a Jack of All Trades in the effect of Mid Range combat. While Jiraiya has good techniques and good jutsu for gaining an upper hand at moments, the jutsu and tech of Kakuzu is a bit more than one could handle in a 1 v 1 match against two Mid Range shinobi.


That's it right now. Anub if you want me to explain or talk about anything that I missed explaining in your opening lemme know and I'll try to reply it back as soon as I can, I got 5-10 posts to use so I'm not worried in using 1 for corrections.

 

[KGB Kakuzu]

*Ignores KGB and Bijuu Bomber* Chicken. (._. )​

Please refrain from insulting one another please *insert generic Unohana Smile here*.

So, when is the debate time end on this? Tomorrow?

Assuming NB time is the same for everyone it should be 8:15 p.m. tomorrow.

Basically you have 48 house from whenever Anub's first post was as that was the start of debate. Unless of course you decide to end early or meet the lost count limit.


And of course first post refers to Anub's first debate post.


Do note however, this is mainly due to Anub's adequate timing to his post... Obviously had he taken way to long to begin without proper notification or explanations he would have been disqualified, or we'd have used the time I posted the thread (provided you yourself weren't neglected time). Basically to keep things fair, but also some manner of responsibility if that makes sense.

 

[Anub]

Kakuzu v. Jiraiya​

Well since Anub has made a certain type of style to the debate, short sweet and to the point, I suppose I'll do the same.

I will proceed to counter in the same order you posted.

While both Jiraiya and Kakuzu are mainly mid range/close range fighters, since it's no intel on the other this battle'll most likely be determined by the control of the battlefield, which with Kakuzu's many techniques, abilities, and feats, should be able to not a problem, so I'll be displaying a lot of circumstances in battle if happened and post Kakuzu's feats and techs to counter or win in said circumstance, so I'll start with close range combat seeing as how it's the most standard.

I understand that you feel like Kakuzu has a large range of jutsus, but in fact, it doesn't even matter how many jutsus he's got as long as they're not fast/powerful enough, which will be my point throughout this counter.

Close Range - Taijutsu, and Overall Strength​

Since Jiraiya has Sage Mode his strength, speed, and overall stamina has been increased (no manga scan needed, basic knowledge) so many would think in close range Jiraiya would take the circumstance no problem, while convincing, wouldn't be the case in my view.

Since Jiraiya's Sage Mode gives him enhanced strength and durability he is quite a tank, but Kakuzu has basically a physical tech that can basically even the odds, Earth Spear can harden his skin and make him basically a physical nearly indestructible badass.

Spoiler

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It has not just durability, but strength as well, able to basically destroy giant iron doors with little effort. Making their strength and durability 1:1.

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You exaplined that Jirayia would turn "tanky" when in sage mode. On the contrary:

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<- this page right here alone shows that Jiraiya was faster than Pain anticipated. He is faster AND stronger, not losing any of his feats while gaining another. In fact, it would more likely be the case with Kakuzu who DOES get tanky when using Earth Spear.

Also, while we're on the subject, Kakuzu has used it so far to cover himself partially (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's not an instant jutsu... it takes a bit of time. Kakuzu also got ambushed by Kakashi and lost a heart, which all indicates to the fact that his Earth Spear is not reliable enough when facing against an opponent far faster than Kakashi. Also another mention is that Earth Spear is a B-rank jutsu ... how strong can it be and how much can it tank from Jirayia range of attacks? Think about it.
You also mentioned that Kakuzu destroyed a door, which I'm not sure hot it's helping your argument at the moment. We've seen Sakura destroy a whole field...

While that shows that physically they're equal, their overall Taijutsu and abilities mid-fight determines the circumstance. Kakuzu has been shown to be equal and if not greater, in Taijutsu to Kakashi's which is quite a feat. Although Jiraiya basically knowing "Frog Fu" kinda equalizes it, but Kakuzu's tentacles or "threads" can be used to restrain the enemy with Jiraiya being no exception. Since Jiraiya has no intel about said threads it'll most likely not be prepared for it, like every other ninja seeing it.

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And with that link showing his multiple hearts I'll go into the mid range/ninjutsu aspect of the fight.

Well no, your link doesn't show that physically Kakuzu si equal to Jirayia. It's not even A>b>c logic, it's just Kakuzu slamming a door. Jirayia has Sage Mode. Although imperfect, SM functions on the same principle and please refer to any/all the pages where you see Naruto in SM.

Well I don't want to be rude. I really don't but you're suggesting that Kakuzu is equal/greater than Kakashi is taijutsu, which I highly doubt since he haven't really seen any impressive feats. Kakuzu specializez in mostly ninjutsu and it's obvious why. Also Frog Fu is above Kakashi. First of all you need to compare the speed and then, remember how Naruto could touch Pain's bodies when they were all watching him? Exactly. Kakuzu won't know what hit him and he doesn't even have shared vision.

Mid Range - Control of Battle and Ninjutsu​

While Jiraiya containing Ma and Pa to expand his jutsu such as well as being extra help in him examining the field. Kakuzu's main threat that can cost Jiraiya his control is his hearts. Them being separate entities and able to move and attack on their own is basically 1 v 4 with Kakuzu being in advantage of control due to not just him being a threat.

While you have shown Jiraiya's tech's that can be useful in gaining ground like Hermit Art - Deep Fryer, Kakuzu has similar, if not more effective jutsu and techs to even out the ground and even gain control.

Since his hearts have multiple Nature affinities, he basically has use of all Nature types on the field: Katon, Fuuton, Raiton while his Doton isn't really that needed.

Jirayia has Ma and Pa, meaning that they are constantly gathering Natural chakra. His SM is limitless, thus his speed and stregth will not decrease. With that being said, I believe that even you know that it's clear Kakuzu isn't among the fastest akatsuki members.

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<- that is how he fought Naruto. Please browse back and forth through those pages. First of all you can see Kakuzu's taijutsu range, which is clearly smaller than Jirayia's (

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) and Naruto was even able to outclass him using clones and base speed. Naruto's speed at that point in the manga does not even compare to SM Naruto, which is what was needed to defeat Pain's bodies (yes, even taijutsu-wise). Kakuzu is NOT a taijutsu user.

And in case of 4v1, Jirayia has proven to deal with huge summons, which overall occupy more space than 4 stringy masks. The needle barrier + lion's mane technique is more than enough. But just in case, Jirayia can also use Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld (

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) which is instant and can capture anything that touches the ground really.

Mid Range Part 2 - Katon, Fuuton, Raiton Jutsu​

With basically all Natures at his disposal he has made basically all uses of Nature advantage an easy feat. His Katon - Searing Migraine is an immense distance and range technique able to basically cover a forest, more than enough for gaining the upper hand.

Spoiler

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His Fuuton jutsu, Fuuton - Pressure Damage, is a high density jutsu that is without a doubt one of the strongest Fuuton techniques in the series, blasting through solid tree with no effort and even having the range and destructive damage as the Fuuton Rasen Shuriken.

Spoiler

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His Raiton Technique, Raiton - False Darkness, is basically a direct blast and ray of Lightning, able of cutting through rock and other things. A very powerful technique for attempting a direct attack.

Spoiler

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While all effective jutsu at controlling the field, the best thing about the hearts is that they can combine together, and with that, combine techs as well, making most counters to the jutsus non effective unless you have both nature counters, which is highly unlikely in a case like Jiraiya.

Since they both have no knowledge of either's abilites, Jiraiya and Kakuzu would have to gain victory through the control of the field, which with all jutsus and effectiveness shown above, Kakuzu holds it easily.

I understand that Kakuzu has got some impressive jutsu. But first of all, neither of them have been able to actually do some proper damage to any of Kakashi's team mates... His raiton jutsu was even tanked by Kakashi, and right now we're talking about a much weaker Kakashi than what we've seen in the war.

And if we're enumerating the jutsu, we might as well add the fact that Jirayia does have Katon

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While combining any of the with this

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Means that at least 1-2 kakuzu bodies will be taken care of. Neither of the masks have proven to take too much damage and in fact it was the rasengan that eventually took Kakuzu down, a jutsu that Jiraiya possesses. Btw sorry for the wiki links, but atm I'm swamped with IRL stuff and trying to get this over with as well.

But overall, you still haven't proven that ANY of the jutsu would be strong enough to even touch Jirayia. And while it's true that A>b>c logic does not apply in Naruto, it DOES apply when it comes to single feats (i.e. speed, strength, etc). In which case, in terms of speed, I would put SM Naruto > SM Jirayia > Pain > Kakashi >= Kakuzu. This is purely speed-wise, not battle-wise. Jirayia starting in SM is a HUGE advantage in speed and I'm afraid Kakuzu cannot bring anything to the table. He will most likely get his by one of the jutsus mentioned above and if not, Jirayia can always do what Naruto did and use Kage Bunshin. Even without it, he will still prove faster than the Naruto that outclassed Kakuzu with a rasengan. And Jirayia's rasengan is HUGE.

Conclusion ( as of now )​

With the battle containing no intel on the other, the control of field is a huge subject and importance of the battle itself. While I haven't even went into the Transformation that Kakuzu holds, I'm mainly making this counteraction at the moment to show the counters of Jiraiya's role in his fighting and handling. Kakuzu is basically a Jack of All Trades in the effect of Mid Range combat. While Jiraiya has good techniques and good jutsu for gaining an upper hand at moments, the jutsu and tech of Kakuzu is a bit more than one could handle in a 1 v 1 match against two Mid Range shinobi.


That's it right now. Anub if you want me to explain or talk about anything that I missed explaining in your opening lemme know and I'll try to reply it back as soon as I can, I got 5-10 posts to use so I'm not worried in using 1 for corrections.

I think it's quite the opposite. Jirayia is a BEAST when it comes to SM. His ninjutsu is above Kakuzu's, simply because nature chakra enhances everything. The speed in his jutsu (hair needle) is faster, his taijutsu is better (frog kumite) and his overall faster (mentioned above). Kakuzu is "okay" or just "good enough" when you're comparing him to Jirayia.

Also, you haven't countered or offered solutions to Jirayia's genjutsu. And having no info means that you won't even be able to be see it coming sadly. All Jirayia needs is time and his speed + tenacity will help his escape so that Ma and Pa can sing DAT SONG!

Ball's in your court my friend. Go nuts! Also, sorry for the quick and rushed reply. I've got a lot on my plate right now. I hope I'm not letting anyone down that hard.