Because the fusing in to his body takes time, and rather than having them sitting on his shoulders as extra targets, they're safer being summoned fused.
It's way more dangerous for Jiraiya to rely on a summoning and clones alone protect him rather than him and a summon together along with clones protect Shima and Fukasaku. I'm also pretty sure that fusing doesn't take very long, because all Fukasaku had to do was hop on Naruto's shoulder and gather natural energy. The toads are prefect sages so gathering natural energy doesn't take long for them.
Whatever databook said in this instance undermines the manga as well.
I'm pretty sure the data book constantly refers to the oldies as sages anyways.... so the generalization could be just that. That's like saying people can summon the old prophet sage Lol
It's way more dangerous for Jiraiya to rely on a summoning and clones alone protect him rather than him and a summon together along with clones protect Shima and Fukasaku. I'm also pretty sure that fusing doesn't take very long, because all Fukasaku had to do was hop on Naruto's shoulder and gather natural energy. The toads are prefect sages so gathering natural energy doesn't take long for them.
Whatever databook said in this instance undermines the manga as well.
Jiraiya never used any clones to protect himself when summoning. He couldn't, as the only technique that could work for him is the barrier, because it could be done with his feet instead. The only thing he had protecting him was Ken.
We were never shown the exact steps of the fusing process. Fukasaku hopped on Naruto's shoulder, started to attempt to draw in natural energy, and kurama rejected him. There's nothing that says the point where Kurama rejected him is the point where Fukasaku would have completed the fusing process. All it says is Kurama felt/sensed/whatever Fukasaku's attempt and rejected it.
It was shown in the manga to take roughly a minute, maybe two for them to fuse in to Jiraiya. Which isn't very long, but is longer than 4 panels.
"Using it as a substitute for contract summoning" doesn't undermine the manga. The manga backs it up 100% considering Shima summoned Fukasaku with no issue, and it's stated that you can summon anyone from Myoboku that you want to.
Jiraiya's concern about his toads is going to prevent him from putting them in any unnecessary risk. He even told Fukasaku and Shima on two different occasions
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to leave. The first one being if their plan went wrong to trap in genjutsu, the second being after he lost his arm. He cares more about them than he cares about his own life, he wasn't going to put them at risk being immobile themselves.
All this said, we're getting off topic here. If you want to start a thread about this or continue in VM's I'm cool with that, though there isn't much left to say.
To me, once someone stops a debate of theirs when they still have a post left to make and several points not countered, it's almost the same as conceding. The final post for him is the chance to counter your previous and wrap up every possible point he can. Leaving it like this practically makes it where there's no reason to really judge this considering how many points left not countered there were by Mercer.
Mercer's posts were certainly not without some good points, as KG noted by conceding to a few of them, but that does nothing for him when he lacks counters to so many(by default, considering he didn't post anything else).
But just as a side note since I'm a stickler for anything Jiraiya/Toad related, I just want to add in regards to Fukasaku/Shima that Jiraiya is the only person(or I guess another person trying to have them fuse in to their body via summoning) that has to summon them that way, because the databook plainly states he uses this method as a substitute for the normal contract summoning in order for them to summon connected to his body. The databook clearly states once signing the contract you can summon any toad from Mount Myoboku, and Shima shows this off very clearly by summoning Fukasaku(and Naruto/Toad Army) with a regular summoning technique. Naruto would be able to summon them no differently than how he would summon Bunta or Kichi.
That was pretty pointless to say when he has the last post so no matter if i did a 3rd post or not there would still be something in his finale post that i wouldn't have been able to said anything about anyways. So how is that like conceding? When it would have been the same result weather we had 4 or 5 post.
Hahahahaha. EMS Sasuke without PS is stronger than BSM Naruto and the horrendous Naruto wankery is pitting it against KCM Naruto? This base. They're clearly not as smart as me.
I have 3 career choices, one English major, a masters in Nuclear orgasm and a lobectomy procedure license.
Sasuke has this - in the bag low diff. Amaterasu one-shots and Naruto is not fast enough to evade considering Kaguya - the goddess of all chakra was helpless and could react against its formidable hellish incineration. Anyone who disagrees is not as smart as me.
That was pretty pointless to say when he has the last post so no matter if i did a 3rd post or not there would still be something in his finale post that i wouldn't have been able to said anything about anyways. So how is that like conceding? When it would have been the same result weather we had 4 or 5 post.
Not necessarily. In your last post you counter as much as you can and wrap up every point you can think of off of the top of your head, leaving no stone unturned. Your first two posts were relatively short and while you covered some, you didn't cover nearly as much as you should have. KG didn't cover as much as I'd like to have seen, either(just covered what you stated and threw in a few points here and there), and I'm assuming that's because he was waiting until his final post to do what I stated before, but who knows.
I won't go in to in-depth judging unless necessary(I'm only going to judge if a tiebreak is needed), but to me when you practically surrender with still a post remaining, what is that supposed to tell me? You're pretty much conceding here, and that's a shame considering I liked some of the points you made and I think you could have went further with it.
YD wasted a lot of time on countering CQC, V1 and V2 susanoo despite it being obvious Naruto can get past them easily. If he gives an argument on simply countering V3 legged susanoo and V4 susanoo, that would suffice to prove that Naruto takes out V1 and V2 susanoo easily by virtue of power scaling.
In his post about V3 susanoo, YD said that Naruto would counter susanoo arrows by summoning Ma to utilize her dust cloud. This was wrong because Shima can't be instantly summoned and a better counter would simply be evasion considering even DSM Kabuto evaded them. He completely disregarded the location and claimed Naruto's rasengan to the ground will cause rocks to fly up even though the location is a desert. YD said that the SM clones will turn to rocks but then claims they'll make a COFRS to get Sasuke from the back even though they are transformed into rocks.
Counter to V4 susanoo war pretty straight forward, to the point and made perfect sense. Its lack of mobility is what allows Naruto to steamroll it with his clone army spamming FRS. I liked how you even made use of chakra arms to go underground and get through susanoo, thus bypassing susanoo altogether.
The counter to standing susanoo was flawed as YD stated that Naruto would transform into the fox and pin down the susanoo much like the Kurama avatar did to Madara's V3 susanoo but this is flawed because a fake transformation isn't going to have anywhere near the same physical stats (speed, durability and strength) as the real 50% Kurama.
Counter to genjutsu was solid, the counter to Kirin was grasping at straws considering Kirin's AoE. Counter to Aoda made sense except for the fact frog kata isn't the paralysing frog call but I overlooked that detail as I'm sure we all know what YD really meant.
Overall, the opener was pretty weak and filled with grammatical errors to boot.
KG's first post
KG did well to prove that it was V3 susanoo that was destroyed by Kirin, not V4 susanoo. KG was wrong about sending chakra arm underground will cause the TBB to explode when the TBB isn't even needed and a collision with the ground may not even cause it to explode considering the impact has to be strong enough to make the TBB explode or else we'd be claiming that throwing a pebble at TBB can make it explode. Not to mention Naruto should be able to make a TBB after going through the ground. Not like it's even needed when YD already covered the effectiveness of chakra arm in terms of doing damage to Sasuke himself. Good point when it comes to using amaterasu all around him to counter a possible FRS barrage.
Anyway KG cleared up quite nicely about how transforming into a fox would be useless. KG went on to counter Ma and Pa. Even though YD stated that Kirin would be useless, KG explained why that is wrong.
Your counter to FRS and COFRS was spot on and dealt with any possible scenario.
You proved that Sasuke's susanoo striking speed allowed him to tag Juubito who is far faster than Naruto so it means that even without Kyuubi chakra cloak Sasuke should be able to do the same to a far weaker Naruto. I don't disagree with this but I think you should have elaborated on how Juubito's superiority to Naruto is bigger than or equal to KM Sasuke's to ordinary Sasuke's. You made a good point that Naruto can't always use his top speed whereas his regular speed was matched by Sasuke. A few more scans supporting your point in regards to speed would have been nice.
You also saw the holes in YD's mixing up with rocks strategy and countered it seamlessly.
Overall this was a very solid post.
YD's second post
Right when you start off your post, I notice you claim KG made an assumption yet you also made an assumption while accusing KG of making an assumption on which version of susanoo was destroyed. You pretty much ignored KG's argument on how Itachi's V4 susanoo wields Yata so he couldn't have formed a V4 unless you are implying V4 with Yata got destroyed. Once again you talked about Kurama holding down Sasuke's susanoo yet you didn't prove how he'd do it without Sasuke counterattacking or evading.
Nevertheless, your second paragraph was much better and brought up some good points. You showcased how Kakashi's kamui was boosted by such a large amount by Kurama chakra cloak so Sasuke was heavily boosted to a massive extent. This put a hole in KG's argument because he didn't provide proof as to how much faster Juubito is compared to KSM Naruto. You stated that Madara's senjutsu enhanced V3 susanoo couldn't even survive bijuu tails but failed to give a comparison to prove what your point with stating this fact was. Saying Hashirama's SM>>>>Jugo's didn't really prove anything either.
Your strategy in regards to 8 Naruto clones transforming into 4 COFRS was pretty unique while a 5th COFRS is mixed in. This would certainly be a nice trick but why wouldn't Sasuke notice Naruto use combination transformation?
You went on to say how the dodging method was countered but gave no reference where it was countered.
KG's second post
You countered YD's Kirin VS fuuton point easily by saying that blowing the hole isn't the same as completely obliterating susanoo. You showed that a regular V3 susanoo got destroyed by Hirudora. You successfully countered the V4 susanoo and Yata point. You called YD on his strategy on turning into Kurama again. Your nature point makes perfect sense although I have some reservations on it considering Minato was stated to be bad at senjutsu and Jman was an imperfect sage so it seems like there is a different in terms of senjutsu usage. You did manage to prove that a mini bijuu dama does nothing major. KG said that Sasuke would simply use amaterasu on all 5 COFRS but Sasuke needed one whole enton arrow to consume 1 COFRS so I don't see how Sasuke can simply produce enough amaterasu to consume five of them. Luckily for him, 4 of those are fake so Sasuke can easily burn those fake ones down with a minimal amount of enton. I do agree it takes longer to make a COFRS and its obvious that Naruto is prepping it so amaterasu renders Naruto's efforts futile. Anyway you rendered YD's Dodging counter method strategy useless.
Afterwards, KG went on to counter the fact that Naruto won't be able to prep COFRS even if he can counter amaterasu because the COFRS is an easy target no matter if Naruto has clones or chakra arms to block Sasuke's LoS. Though you ruined it by saying Sasuke can counter multi COFRS simply by casting amaterasu. Although I'm not convinced Naruto can get more than one COFRS prepped against Sasuke so it doesn't really matter.
KG proved that Juubito couldn't evade Sasuke's strikes and that Sasuke's susanoo strikes faster than Sasuke himself.
C) KG didn't elaborate on the gap between Juubito and KCSM Naruto's speed even though YD elaborated on KM Kakashi and non KM Kakashi so both claims were vague.
D) KG refuted YD quite nicely.
Final Verdict
Drum roll please.
Overall KidGamer65 won the debate by a sizable margin.
Even though it's irrelevant now i wan to point out that SM comes in all different ways in strength. Once Naruto got SM he was able to toss boss summonings like it was nothing Jugo showed no such strength feats at all also we can look at CM2 Hebi Sasuke as another example when he used his CM2 there weren't anything suggesting his physical attributes were boosted either. CM Senjutsu is much weaker than that of SM users.
like it was nothing Jugo showed no such strength feats at all also we can look at CM2 Hebi Sasuke as another example when he used his CM2 there weren't anything suggesting his physical attributes were boosted either. CM Senjutsu is much weaker than that of SM users.
CM users use Orochimaru's residual Senjutsu Chakra to boost their stats. Since it's not a lot, and since they don't have the proper control or training, they can't enter Sage Mode. Jugo uses bonafide Senjutsu. Don't compare the two. CM was only created by using Jugo, doesn't change the fact that Jugo takes in actual Senjutsu. Jugo doesn't get a big boost because he can't properly control Nature Energy, so him and the rest of his clan go berserk.
Aight, I'm gonna judging this thing as I read, making points across both of you on what you did well, and what you didn't do well.
Tre Mercer First Argument:
Since you went first, I'm going to judge this on setting up, while KidGamer's First will be judged as a rebuttal, naturally, and I have to say, this opening is very solid. While some of your diction is...questionable as to its usage in a debate, your points were concisely made, and backed up. You didn't just throw random scenarios or combat scenarios, you used events that have happened in the manga and basically reenacted them with Sasuke in them; you based your argument on what Naruto would do based on what he's done, and that's a very good route. The only issue I saw in your first argument really was using the Juubito example to explain how Sasuke's reaction speed could fail him, since he's on a whole other level than KSM Naruto. Not sure if combination transformation is cheating the no Kurama avatar thing, or if it was just damn clever. Probably both. But damn clever nonetheless.
KidGamer First Argument:
I kind of saw more flaws in your argument than I did with Mercer's. The first thing that stuck out to me is dismissing entire sections of his argument because you agree with them. Agreeing with your opponent on points in their debate is pretty fatal in a debate. If their opponent is going "Yeah, that's a good point, I have no choice but to agree", that says to me, the judge, that they're doing pretty good. Right off the bat, that makes me lean towards Mercer in this "round." Another is using Black Zetsu's words; a hyperbole, no less, from a pathological, psychotic liar. You mentioned how your usage of him isn't about his credibility, acknowledging that his credibility can be legitimately questioned. In a debate, your sources should definitely not be questionable, especially by you yourself. Using him anyway despite knowing this has hurt you for the debate. While your counterargument for Ma and Pa was positive, your argument for Kirin troubled me. You made a good point on how Kirin can be prepped even faster, but the "considering Naruto can't beat him before he does this" part, this is..incomplete, I suppose is the best way of putting it. You can't really say "Sasuke is gonna do and Naruto isn't gonna stop him," you should be able to explain or state how Naruto can't do anything about it. This part implies that Naruto is gonna just stand there while he does it, or that Sasuke becomes untouchable while doing so. You keep saying Amaterasu "handles" things, but as Mercer showed above, Amaterasu burns extremely slowly. Because of this, I'm hesitant to say that casting Amaterasu to a technique that's flying towards you is a good defense.
However, there are several good points in your argument. The counter to Ma and Pa was very good. The 360 degree Enton was a good point, especially by providing a scan of Sasuke moving around(good eye) though I myself highly doubt that Amaterasu spawned a few feet from Sasuke or directly onto the FRS would be a good defense. Your counter to the Kurama Combination Transformation was good, especially because you provided a scan of them being a regular fox. Your counter to Ma and Pa effectively took out the disguising as rocks argument.
First round goes to Mercer. While KidGamer was successful in countering multiple points, he also agreed with many of them, tipping it towards Mercer's favor. He also had more issues in his argument than did Mercer. Mercer did better this round, so I gave it to him.
Tre Mercer's Second Argument:
At first I wasn't sure about the first argument in this one, using three different Susano'o to determine a standard for all three of them. However, with some thought and reading your argument again, I think it's a solid argument. After this it becomes pretty convoluted and I almost confusing, but I got it. The expansion of a Rasenshuriken in close range was really good. This post doesn't have nearly as much as your first, so there isn't much to point out. Overall, it was an alright argument.
KidGamer's Second Argument:
The first paragraph hurt you. Mercer essentially said that it wasn't V3 because Danzo's wind tech was able to slice into V3 and Kirin, being exponentially stronger, should be able to obliterate V3 and do more damage than what was done. You then said that Kirin needs to be exponentially stronger than wind to obliterate V3, which is exactly what Mercer said. You contradicted yourself here by going "Kirin needs to be way stronger to do what you're saying" then saying "Kirin is way stronger btw", unless I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
This was a pretty alright argument as well. Not much being said that was noteworthy or stood out. Touching on the length of time it takes to charge up a COFRS and pointing out that Sasuke can strike at that time was a highlight of your argument. Just saying "It won't though" to your opponent's scenario happening doesn't look very good. I know you said he'd escape the second round, but you'd need to say how he does so, not just "Yeah he can avoid it."
The "expansion" part didn't really work out, since that's what happened with the Yoton: Rasenshuriken as well: The disc expanded. While the expansion was much bigger, Mercer's expansion point was legit, or perhaps more accurate, your rebuttal wasn't. The scenario of Kagutsuchi lighting the wind on fire slightly makes up for it.
The point about EMS Sasuke being unable to strike Madara, but throw Juubito into a corner(along with Naruto) was very good, that was a highlight.
The "jump away" arguments seem a little weak. I feel like you could expand more on how jumping away is gonna help, you need to describe how that is gonna help. That's really no better than just going "He avoids it." You dismantled the rock-disguise argument well again.
While both giving alright arguments, KidGamer offered a little bit more. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on the first paragraph thing, and he did well countering some points, and not so good on others. Mercer's had its points, but I felt like it lacked more than Gamer's. "Round" two goes to Gamer.
Disappointed that there's no third argument because now I can't just let that be the tiebreaker. So, after flipping a coin, I'm gonna let the tie breaker be a grade on who presented their arguments better, and I gotta give that to Mercer. Gamer had a lot of vague statements disguised as arguments, things like "He'll just avoid it" or "He'll just jump away" without really explaining how that would help; he was just hoping that'd be enough to carry the arguments, and it wasn't. Mercer was much better at getting his points across, while Gamer decided to employ condescension. Things like "I'm not taking you seriously anymore" and "Lol" faces don't really help.
Penalizing KG for conceding to a couple of points(which I much rather seeing in a debate than someone foolishly trying to argue something they know is correct/they have no argument against, it's a waste of my time as the reader and their time as the debater) yet not penalizing Mercer when he gave up with an entire post still left to go is a bit beyond my understanding, to be honest.
I'll get my judgement done sometime today or tomorrow.
Penalizing KG for conceding to a couple of points(which I much rather seeing in a debate than someone foolishly trying to argue something they know is correct/they have no argument against, it's a waste of my time as the reader and their time as the debater) yet not penalizing Mercer when he gave up with an entire post still left to go is a bit beyond my understanding, to be honest.
I'll get my judgement done sometime today or tomorrow.
It's not about what I'm penalizing or not. I'm commenting on his inconsistencies in his judgement. If KG conceding a couple of points is worth penalizing, giving up/conceding to a full post of points is worth penalizing too, no?
It's not about what I'm penalizing or not. I'm commenting on his inconsistencies in his judgement. If KG conceding a couple of points is worth penalizing, giving up/conceding to a full post of points is worth penalizing too, no?
Penalizing KG for conceding to a couple of points(which I much rather seeing in a debate than someone foolishly trying to argue something they know is correct/they have no argument against, it's a waste of my time as the reader and their time as the debater) yet not penalizing Mercer when he gave up with an entire post still left to go is a bit beyond my understanding, to be honest.
I'll get my judgement done sometime today or tomorrow.
Gamer stating that they came to a mutual decision to stop early. It being out of either person's laziness was never brought to my attention, and I'm not exactly studious of Mercer's history in debating to go "There goes that Mercer being lazy again."
As for the Gamer conceding to Mercer's points, the quality of the points they made, which includes accurate information, logical arguments, logical rebuttals, and the combination of them is what I was judging. If someone presents a point that the opponent concedes to, that's a reflection on the person who made the argument's ability to debate, as they either presented completely accurate facts, or an argument that had completely sound reasoning. The phrasing I used was rather inept in hindsight; it's not that Gamer conceding to the points harmed him, but Mercer making points that were rooted so well in accurate information and sound reasoning was a good reflection for Mercer. The same thing happened vice versa, Mercer conceded to a point that Gamer made as well(about Kurama-Transformation), and I gave Gamer credit for that point, and it did occur to me that Gamer also made a point that was so sound, debating against it was pointless. Bear in mind, I woke up, got on NB and the first thing I saw was Mercer's VM and I immediately started reading and judging, so bear with me if I didn't include every single detail in expositional description that led to my judging, I figured "Good job on countering his Kurama-transformation claim" sufficed.
If Gamer had not agreed to stopping the debate a post early, and Mercer still hadn't responded, then yes, that would have negatively impacted my judgement on his half. However, Gamer did agree to stop early, meaning he willingly gave up an entire post, just as much as Mercer did, so if I am to negatively judge Mercer for stopping a post early, Gamer gets the same amount of negative judgement, so it makes no difference either way.
