[Debate] Old Hiruzen (Blaze Release) vs 3T Itachi (Magatsu Izanagi)
You must be registered for see images
-VS-
You must be registered for see images
-Scenario-
Location: Naruto/Sakura vs Kakashi
You must be registered for see links
Conditions: Hiruzen gets EDO FEATS, Itachi is HEALTHY Restrictions: Mangekyou Sharingan, Reaper Death Seal Intel: Manga Knowledge Starting Distance: 30 metres Mindset: To kill
Re: [Debate] Old Hiruzen (Blaze Release) vs 3T Itachi (Magatsu Izanagi)
Opening Statement
To win this fight, Itachi will engage Hiruzen in a CQC battle, where he will attempt to either place him in Genjutsu via Ephermeral (finger genjutsu), or weave in hand signs during Taijutsu to create an Exploding Clone (which he should be able to do, considering he was able to make a clone during the shuriken exchange with Hebi Sasuke without him noticing,
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
), which will then come at the occupied Hiruzen and deal some significant damage, as shown below:
You must be registered for see images
He can begin the battle by heading right for Hiruzen quickly via his Shunshin, which should close the 30m gap fast enough before Hiruzen can do anything major. Even if Hiruzen gets a clone or two out before the distance is closed, Itachi can do the same and have his clones deal with Hiruzen's clones.
Even though Hiruzen has a 5 in Taijutsu in the DB, this 0.5 advantage over Itachi's 4.5 is greatly overshadowed by Itachi's 2 point advantage in speed (he has 5, Hiruzen has 3), which will be even further emphasized if Hiruzen brings out the heavy Enma Staff and has to carry it around on him. These advantages, coupled with Sharingan precog, and the fact Hiruzen has to avoid eye contact, AND the fact he has to watch out for Ephermeral (which he may not even know about), means that Itachi clearly has a huge upper hand here, even with worrying about the Enma Staff.
He can also use this advantage to weave in hand seals while he's fighting, to create an Exploding Clone, which will catch Hiruzen off guard. If it doesn't kill him, he can rinse/repeat this strategy until it does. And this is all assuming that Hiruzen is in fact able to succesfully avoid being put Genjutsu.
Itachi will most likely not have any knowledge on Enma, but that won't matter as long as he can figure out the dangers of the Staff quickly (which he has been shown to be capable to do already, deducing how to counter Chibaku Tensei in a matter of seconds). Now, if Hiruzen does have the Enma Staff out during CQC, Itachi simply has to realize the fact that it can morph and have the Enma's body parts come out, etc, which he should easily be able to react to and avoid (via Shunshin if necessary) considering Orochimaru was able to react to the direct morph.
You must be registered for see links
, and if needed, Itachi can make a clone to replicate what was done here to deal with Enma's head popping out, if he decides he isn't able to do it on his own.
You must be registered for see links
If Hiruzen tries to break away from this CQC by gaining distance, Itachi will close the gap again before he can do anything major, given his 2 point advantage in speed. Even if he does manage to break away, Hiruzen's elemental ninjutsu shouldn't pose a threat to Itachi, as they can all be countered by his own.
Seems a little brief, but I'll leave it at that to start off. Your move.
Re: [Debate] Old Hiruzen (Blaze Release) vs 3T Itachi (Magatsu Izanagi)
Yay, an interesting debate! Personally I think Itachi has this in the bag but let's see what Blaze Release has to say. I suggest you two find judges unless you are planning on judging it yourselves.
I came really close to just rebutting this myself, but probably best just to let the debate take it's course as to not give any advantages to either side.
As the longest reigning hokage, Hiruzen has seen many generations of uchiha and would have a great understanding of their abilities; katon affinity, genjutsu prowess and overall sharingan abilities. 3T Itachi's abilities fall perfectly in line with what Hiruzen would expect from an uchiha, As the hokage, Hiruzen would know at the very basic, each shinobi's abilities within the anbu as they serve the hokage and are under his direct command.
Starting distance of 30 meters restricts itachi's genjutsu usage and would have to reply on either ninjutsu or try and close the gap in order to initiate genjutsu. Any ninjutsu execution/movement by itachi in order to close the gap is halted by the Shuriken kage bunshin, just like how his ninjutsu execution was halted by sasuke
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
. Whilst the clones numbers vary, its been stated the user can create as much as a 1000 shuriken clones from one shuriken. Itachi would be forced to defend himself from a barrage of shurikens raining down on him.
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
This basic strategy would enable Hiruzen enough time to summon Enma [
You must be registered for see links
]
Enma presence allows Hiruzen to fight a mid/long range battle by transforming into his Adamantine Staff
You must be registered for see links
It is highly unlikely that Itachi would know of Enma and its ability to transform.
Orochimaru, Hiruzen student knew who it was and what the transformation meant and decided to use the sword of kusanagi as a counter
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Itachi's limited knowledge could be his downfall. Whilst he should be able to evade/cope with the initial onslaught by hiruzen. Enma has shown to be capable of manipulating its size
You must be registered for see links
Like the strength that the staff poses, capable of pushing kurama out of konoha, breaking hiruzen free from hashirama's mokuton and lately, smashing to bits branches of the god tree [
You must be registered for see links
,] means that there is no room for error on itachi's side therefore he cannot even try and block those strikes as that is certain death. He has to completely evade Hiruzen's onslaught [
You must be registered for see links
], whilst taking into consideration the fact that the staff can be extended/retracted and also has to deal with the added surprise of an enranged Enma, who can freely attack [
You must be registered for see links
,
You must be registered for see links
,
You must be registered for see links
]
Apart from being capable of fighting mid/range range in order to nullify the threat of genjutsu. Having Enma as a partner means Hiruzen is capable of breaking the illusion, by Enma disrupting his chakra. Likewise, he can use the kage bunshin to confuse Itachi or fight without his without his sight something Hiurzen has managed to do successfully agains't the previous Edo's. His keen senses allowing him to anticipate an attack and block [
You must be registered for see links
], as well as smell to track his opponents [
You must be registered for see links
]. Finally Hiruzen has shown to be capable of sensing chakra. This will not only allow him to note whether he is in an illusion or not, but also will greatly increase his already sharpened 5 senses[
You must be registered for see links
].
Gufu Suika [
You must be registered for see links
]. This is a technique that Hiruzen should be able to create as he can manuiplate both suiton and fuuton
You must be registered for see images
.
This technique creates a fog/mist which blinds the victim
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Used in conjunction with enma and its unpredictability can prove effective. As a means of blinding the sharingan along with hiruzen's senses/sensing capabilities will make him favourite even in the briefest of moments to strike down Itachi.
Enma has shown the capability of transforming and cloning itself into several staffs in order to give hiruzen a 360% defense. A defense that Itachi cannot breach. A prison that even mokuton fails.
You must be registered for see links
.
Hiruzen's mastery of the elements allows him many collaboration techniques. Apart from gufu suika, he can increase the potency of his Katons with Fuuton. Something that Itachi has no answer as his suiton isn't strong enough.
Likewise his katon's would prove futile agains't this.
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Likewise the capabilities to combine suiton and raiton and shown to be capable of paralyzing an opponent.
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Read Mei's taughts.
Itachi's suiton is countered either by producing Doryuheki
You must be registered for see links
Katon countered by hiruzen's suiton.
Another method that Hiruzen could employ to not only nullify Itachi's elements, but cause damage to itachi is through counterbalancing [
You must be registered for see links
]
You must be registered for see images
Hiruzen elementary feat agains't SS [
You must be registered for see links
] would easily overwhelm itachi's element and many end up backing on the uchiha as they are far more powerful than his own.
The defensive capability of Kongō Rōheki (Adamantine Prison Wall) Enma which allows him to clone himself and give hiruzen a 360% defense. Can in fact be used for offensive purposes as well, by trapping the enemy (Itachi) in a prison where he cannot escape and has no means of breaking free.
You must be registered for see links
Black box:
金剛牢壁
Adamantium Prison Wall
使用者 猿猴王・猿飛
User Enkouou ・ Sarutobi
Heading:
自在に変幻する堅固なる獄！！
A solid prison that changes shape at will!!
Paragraphs:
金剛如意に変化した猿魔が、さらに分身して数十本の如意棒に姿を変え、敵の四方八方を格子状に取り囲んで捕 縛する術。
After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice.
金剛の堅さを持つ牢壁は決して破ること能わず、捕えられた敵は座して敗北の屈辱を知るのみ。
The prison wall with the toughness of adamantium cannot possibly be broken, and the captured enemy is left with nothing but the humility of defeat.
Text in picture:
さっきからどうした ｜｜ お前らしくもねぇ・・・
What’s wrong? ｜｜ This isn’t like you…
―まあね・・・
I know…
Caption:
↑初代火影の秘術による攻撃を、臨機応変に盾となって防ぎ、三代目を死の窮地から救出せしめた。
In response to Shodai Hokage’s secret jutsu, Enma quickly shields Sandaime, saving him from certain death.
→防御に使えば敵は攻撃不可能。じっくり体勢を立て直すことができる。
When used for defence the enemy has no way of attacking. This gives Sandaime time to pull himself together.
On a similar note With this technique Enma can clone itself
"After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice." If you look at the middle page those are the clones disappearing.
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see images
Similar to hashirama/Tobirama's
You must be registered for see links
.
By my calculations those were roughly 18-20 clones Enma produced in order to form the prison.
With the ability to clone itself Enma can revert to its original monkey self and help further put Itachi at a disadvantage as hiruzen has the numerical and overall advantage. The enma clones could stay in their staff transformation and hiruzen could produce 3-5 kage bunshin's all wielding an enma staff, the rest of the clones can disappear, or transform back into its monkey form. The ability to clone also means there is a greater chance of itachi being captured and defeated.
"金剛の堅さを持つ牢壁は決して破ること能わず、捕えられた敵は座して敗北の屈辱を知るのみ。
The prison wall with the toughness of adamantium cannot possibly be broken, and the captured enemy is left with nothing but the humility of defeat."
Itachi has no way of winning this fight as he is clearly outmatched.
His genjutsu prowess and ninjutsu is countered very successfully.
Hiruzen is the clear winner here.
I've produced my opening.
Tried to keep it as short as possible but may have gone overboard.
Anyway its now your turn to counter my intro and i do the same to yours
As the longest reigning hokage, Hiruzen has seen many generations of uchiha and would have a great understanding of their abilities; katon affinity, genjutsu prowess and overall sharingan abilities. 3T Itachi's abilities fall perfectly in line with what Hiruzen would expect from an uchiha, As the hokage, Hiruzen would know at the very basic, each shinobi's abilities within the anbu as they serve the hokage and are under his direct command.
While Itachi's abilities are, classification-wise, Uchiha abilities which Hiruzen would definitely expect (genjutsu, katon as you said, etc), there is something about them which is out of the ordinary: his prowess in using them. Itachi's capabilities, both with 3T and without, far exceed the average Uchiha's.
Mastering the Sharingan at age 7
You must be registered for see links
(which some Uchiha may not do, ever), Orochimaru referring to Sharingan power being different depending on the user
You must be registered for see links
(praising Itachi), and countless other instances in the manga (which I'm entirely sure you're conscious of, so no point in me finding all of them) show that Itachi's capabilities with 3T are scores ahead of what one can normally do with it. Treating Itachi like a regular 3T Uchiha isn't going to do him any good. It is for those reasons his genjutsu ability is leagues ahead of what one would normally expect from a 3T user, as his illusions have been shown to simulate reality, etc, and everything from his speed to his chakra control is also extraordinary. He was hailed as a prodigy in these regards among many occasions.
So long story short, if Hiruzen treated this battle with confidence, expecting Itachi to be like a regular 3T user, this battle would quickly become a nightmare. He WILL be acting cautiously.
Now, as you've said, Itachi did serve under Hiruzen in the ANBU, which would mean that Hiruzen knows most of, if not all, his abilities. However, just because he knows his abilities doesn't mean that he won't make adjustments to his fighting style to counter them, i.e. he's going to avoid eye contact for genjutsu if they're in CQC, and it also doesn't mean that he knows of all of Itachi's STRATEGIES, as he can certainly make some up on the spot.
Starting distance of 30 meters restricts itachi's genjutsu usage and would have to reply on either ninjutsu or try and close the gap in order to initiate genjutsu. Any ninjutsu execution/movement by itachi in order to close the gap is halted by the Shuriken kage bunshin, just like how his ninjutsu execution was halted by sasuke
Indeed, Itachi will need to close that gap if he isn't planning on having a ninjutsu-centred fight (which is out of character for him, anyways). As I said in my opener, he is more than capable of doing this fairly quickly via his Shunshin. Hiruzen definitely isn't putting a stop to it as fast as Hebi Sasuke could (who was hyped to have "godlike speed"
You must be registered for see links
and feats to back it up
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
) against an Itachi who was already drained from MS use and from sickness
You must be registered for see links
, both of which won't hamper him in this matchup. At best, Hiruzen is going to maybe obstruct the path between him and Itachi, which Itachi will simply avoid by dodging the Shuriken.
To further support this, considering the fact that Itachi blitzed Killer Bee
You must be registered for see links
(who was able to react to v2 Ay
You must be registered for see links
), and the fact that Orochimaru successfully blitzed Hiruzen
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
, I have no doubt in my mind that Itachi is closing that gap without major problems.
Any further counters you see depend on if Hiruzen can somehow prevent himself from being blitzed and/or put into a CQC scenario right off the bat, which isn't the likeliest of scenarios based on what I've explained so far.
Whilst the clones numbers vary, its been stated the user can create as much as a 1000 shuriken clones from one shuriken. Itachi would be forced to defend himself from a barrage of shurikens raining down on him.
This is true, if he would be able to do it fast enough (which I explained above how he cannot). If he managed to though, Itachi would have no problem defending with a large enough Katon
You must be registered for see links
, and quickly get back to closing that gap.
This basic strategy would enable Hiruzen enough time to summon Enma [
You must be registered for see links
]
Enma presence allows Hiruzen to fight a mid/long range battle by transforming into his Adamantine Staff
You must be registered for see links
It is highly unlikely that Itachi would know of Enma and its ability to transform.
Orochimaru, Hiruzen student knew who it was and what the transformation meant and decided to use the sword of kusanagi as a counter
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Itachi's limited knowledge could be his downfall. Whilst he should be able to evade/cope with the initial onslaught by hiruzen. Enma has shown to be capable of manipulating its size
You must be registered for see links
Like the strength that the staff poses, capable of pushing kurama out of konoha, breaking hiruzen free from hashirama's mokuton and lately, smashing to bits branches of the god tree [
You must be registered for see links
,] means that there is no room for error on itachi's side therefore he cannot even try and block those strikes as that is certain death. He has to completely evade Hiruzen's onslaught [
You must be registered for see links
], whilst taking into consideration the fact that the staff can be extended/retracted and also has to deal with the added surprise of an enranged Enma, who can freely attack [
This was all addressed in my opener, and I'll re-state it for convenience:
First of all, even though Hiruzen has a 5 in Taijutsu in the DB, this 0.5 advantage over Itachi's 4.5 is greatly overshadowed by Itachi's 2 point advantage in speed, which will be even further emphasized if Hiruzen brings out the heavy Enma Staff and has to carry it around on him. These advantages (coupled with Sharingan precog), plus the fact that Hiruzen has to avoid eye contact and watch out for Ephermeral (which he may not even know about), means that Itachi clearly has a huge upper hand here. He can easily use this to weave in hand seals while he's fighting to create an Exploding Clone, which will catch Hiruzen off guard. If it doesn't kill him
You must be registered for see links
, he can rinse/repeat this strategy until it does. And this is all assuming that Hiruzen is in fact able to succesfully avoid being put Genjutsu.
Itachi will most likely not have any knowledge on Enma, but that won't matter as long as he can figure out the dangers of the Staff quickly (which he has been shown to be capable to do already, deducing how to counter Chibaku Tensei in a matter of seconds). Now, if Hiruzen does have the Enma Staff out during CQC, Itachi simply has to realize and be conscious of the fact that it can morph and have the monkey head come out, etc, which he should easily be able to react to and avoid (via Shunshin if necessary) considering Orochimaru was able to react to the direct morph
You must be registered for see links
and if needed, Itachi can make a clone to replicate what was done
You must be registered for see links
to deal with the Monkey head popping out, if he decides he isn't able to do it on his own.
Apart from being capable of fighting mid/range range in order to nullify the threat of genjutsu. Having Enma as a partner means Hiruzen is capable of breaking the illusion, by Enma disrupting his chakra. Likewise, he can use the kage bunshin to confuse Itachi or fight without his without his sight something Hiurzen has managed to do successfully agains't the previous Edo's. His keen senses allowing him to anticipate an attack and block [
You must be registered for see links
], as well as smell to track his opponents [
You must be registered for see links
]. Finally Hiruzen has shown to be capable of sensing chakra. This will not only allow him to note whether he is in an illusion or not, but also will greatly increase his already sharpened 5 senses[
By the time Hiruzen breaks out of the genjutsu, especially in a CQC scenario, it may be far too late, especially since it will take some moments to realize he's even in one
You must be registered for see links
. Breaking out of Genjutsu, even 3T, is by no means instant, and can still give Itachi the time to maneuver to a strategic position like he did against Bee. A position like that, when they were already in CQC to begin with, means a kunai to the neck for Hiruzen.
You must be registered for see images
Gufu Suika [
You must be registered for see links
]. This is a technique that Hiruzen should be able to create as he can manuiplate both suiton and fuuton
You must be registered for see images
.
This technique creates a fog/mist which blinds the victim
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Used in conjunction with enma and its unpredictability can prove effective. As a means of blinding the sharingan along with hiruzen's senses/sensing capabilities will make him favourite even in the briefest of moments to strike down Itachi.
The moment Itachi is blinded and loses vision of Hiruzen, he is going to make it his number one priority to exit the AOE of the mist, which given the battlefield, shouldn't be a bother. He can Shunshin directly away from where Hiruzen last was, as he lacks the speed to quickly make any significant adjustment to his position relative to Itachi (i.e. if Hiruzen was to the North, he will back away to the South).
While Hiruzen does have his senses/sensing to route out Itachi in the mist, that isn't going to overshadow Itachi's 2 point speed advantage in the Databook (which is taken in Base and doesn't factor in any kind of 3T precog) and all the feats to back it up . Additionally, just because Hiruzen can sniff out Itachi doesn't mean that Enma can. Hiruzen can swing/extend the staff based on Itachi's location (which he will already have moved from, given his 2 point advantage in speed), but I don't see him being able to somehow mentally tell Enma to "stick out your arm" in a certain place. If he says it verbally, Itachi will hear it and avoid it, if he isn't out of the mist already.
Enma has shown the capability of transforming and cloning itself into several staffs in order to give hiruzen a 360% defense. A defense that Itachi cannot breach. A prison that even mokuton fails.
Cannot breach physically, of course. But Itachi does have a hypothetical method of penetrating this defense: Karasu Bunshin.
Since this kind of clone works by Itachi bestowing chakra on crows
You must be registered for see links
, he can hypothetically have those crows fly in through the gaps between the Staffs, then materialize into the actual Clone. There's really no evidence to the contrary, as he's been shown to tame crows, and should have no problem directing them (with his chakra in them, at that) to fly in through the gaps of the Staff barrier.
You must be registered for see images
This leaves Hiruzen in a forced CQC match with Itachi, which he will lose, as I've explained already.
Hiruzen's mastery of the elements allows him many collaboration techniques. Apart from gufu suika, he can increase the potency of his Katons with Fuuton. Something that Itachi has no answer as his suiton isn't strong enough.
Likewise his katon's would prove futile agains't this.
You're right, but why can't Itachi do the same as Kakashi did? Stall it via Suiton, then escape out of harm's way? Itachi has shown a B-rank Suiton (so even if he doesn't have Suijinheki, he has something comparable in terms of potency), and is faster than Kakashi, so that should be sufficient enough to handle that.
Likewise the capabilities to combine suiton and raiton and shown to be capable of paralyzing an opponent.
Sasuke seems to have handled that just fine in the next page
You must be registered for see links
.
I see what you're saying about the paralysis, but I have my doubts that Hiruzen is as potent as Mei in Suiton as as potent as Ay in Raiton. Regardless, Hiruzen won't be cranking out these techniques fast enough in sucession or simultaneously to paralyze Itachi.
Itachi's suiton is countered either by producing Doryuheki
You must be registered for see links
Katon countered by hiruzen's suiton.
Another method that Hiruzen could employ to not only nullify Itachi's elements, but cause damage to itachi is through counterbalancing [
You must be registered for see links
]
You must be registered for see images
Hiruzen elementary feat agains't SS [
You must be registered for see links
] would easily overwhelm itachi's element and many end up backing on the uchiha as they are far more powerful than his own.
When Itachi sees Hiruzen bring out so many clones at once, he will do either two things:
1) Go on the defensive and make the same number of clones on his own (which shouldn't be a problem considering he's healthy, and Crow Clones will even take up less chakra than regular clones if he needs). Then, by reading their intentions via Sharingan (
You must be registered for see links
), he can counter Katon with Suiton, Suiton with his best Suiton but then he will lose a clone, Fuuton with Katon to get the upper hand, and then hit Doton and Raiton with big Katons to score definite counters. This will definitely take a toll on both of them, so he only needs to do this once.
2) If he feels pressured here (or anytime during the battle, really), he can simply perform a Bunshin feint, which will leave Hiruzen attacking a clone whilst the real Itachi can move into a dangerous position, or even completely blitz him.
Given the location they're in, Itachi can replicate this exact strategy, replacing his own body with a clone and Shunshin-ing away to behind a tree/bush:
You must be registered for see images
He'll definitely know of Hiruzen's hype in the ninjutsu field, so as soon as he sees the fight heading to ninjutsu, he will do this for insurance. And any time he does decide to use this strategy as a fail-safe, it gives him another opportunity to blitz Hiruzen and put him in a CQC scenario.
The defensive capability of Kongō Rōheki (Adamantine Prison Wall) Enma which allows him to clone himself and give hiruzen a 360% defense. Can in fact be used for offensive purposes as well, by trapping the enemy (Itachi) in a prison where he cannot escape and has no means of breaking free.
You must be registered for see links
Black box:
金剛牢壁
Adamantium Prison Wall
使用者 猿猴王・猿飛
User Enkouou ・ Sarutobi
Heading:
自在に変幻する堅固なる獄！！
A solid prison that changes shape at will!!
Paragraphs:
金剛如意に変化した猿魔が、さらに分身して数十本の如意棒に姿を変え、敵の四方八方を格子状に取り囲んで捕 縛する術。
After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice.
金剛の堅さを持つ牢壁は決して破ること能わず、捕えられた敵は座して敗北の屈辱を知るのみ。
The prison wall with the toughness of adamantium cannot possibly be broken, and the captured enemy is left with nothing but the humility of defeat.
Text in picture:
さっきからどうした ｜｜ お前らしくもねぇ・・・
What’s wrong? ｜｜ This isn’t like you…
―まあね・・・
I know…
Caption:
↑初代火影の秘術による攻撃を、臨機応変に盾となって防ぎ、三代目を死の窮地から救出せしめた。
In response to Shodai Hokage’s secret jutsu, Enma quickly shields Sandaime, saving him from certain death.
→防御に使えば敵は攻撃不可能。じっくり体勢を立て直すことができる。
When used for defence the enemy has no way of attacking. This gives Sandaime time to pull himself together.
Separating himself from Enma by trapping Itachi like this will not entirely incapacitate Itachi, and will actually be a grave mistake on Hiruzen's part. Itachi won't physically be able to break that barrier, yes. However, nothing is stopping him from sending out a crow clone to fight Hiruzen in his stead, similarly to how I explained how the crows could get into the Staff barrier, but this time the crows don't even have to be on the inside. In fact, this will give him an advantage, as Hiruzen has now lost access to his greatest CQC asset and his most effective method of breaking out of 3T genjutsu.
On a similar note With this technique Enma can clone itself
"After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice." If you look at the middle page those are the clones disappearing.
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see images
Similar to hashirama/Tobirama's
You must be registered for see links
.
By my calculations those were roughly 18-20 clones Enma produced in order to form the prison.
With the ability to clone itself Enma can revert to its original monkey self and help further put Itachi at a disadvantage as hiruzen has the numerical and overall advantage. The enma clones could stay in their staff transformation and hiruzen could produce 3-5 kage bunshin's all wielding an enma staff, the rest of the clones can disappear, or transform back into its monkey form. The ability to clone also means there is a greater chance of itachi being captured and defeated.
If Enma is even able to produce that many clones in monkey form, it would be a grave mistake.
Itachi can make a few clones himself, who could easily fight 1-3 monkey Enma's at once and greatly outclass them within a matter of seconds. Additionally, Enma probably doesn't have any knowledge on the Uchiha (or if he does, he definitely won't know about Ephermeral) and Itachi can end this scuffle quickly.
Even if Hiruzen produces clones each wielding a staff, Itachi can produce an equal number and go into CQC with all of them, which I've already explained is as scenario that he's winning.
"金剛の堅さを持つ牢壁は決して破ること能わず、捕えられた敵は座して敗北の屈辱を知るのみ。
The prison wall with the toughness of adamantium cannot possibly be broken, and the captured enemy is left with nothing but the humility of defeat."
My method of how Itachi deals with the cage doesn't contradict the DB statement. He isn't breaking it, he is fighting while in it.
Plus, Itachi can always do the reverse of that tactic and create a clone first, doing a bunshin feint, leaving the clone captured and a severely impaired Hiruzen up for grabs.
Itachi has no way of winning this fight as he is clearly outmatched.
His genjutsu prowess and ninjutsu is countered very successfully.
Hiruzen is the clear winner here.
Hiruzen is clearly outclassed statistically and practically, giving Itachi an upper hand.
Most of his counters won't do much against Itachi's abilities (or if they do, they don't for long), definitely not to the extent he needs to win. This is one battle that Itachi isn't losing.
Really, the only advantage Hiruzen has here is in Elemental Ninjutsu (and even then, Itachi has ways of coping with it), which would be a non-factor in this fight as Itachi will be using his superior speed and reactions to force a CQC battle on Hiruzen.
3T Itachi puts Hiruzen under a genjutsu and it's game over. He's already proved he's pretty fodderish against it when he got trapped in Kokuangyo. Doesn't even matter that Hiruzen knows what to expect, Itachi is far faster.
Even Kishi confirms Itachi > Hiruzen by giving him a higher databook score, and the databooks only account for base forms; so even Base Itachi is higher than Hiruzen.
I see no counters to blaze's point of itachi being forced to avoid any contact with enma (the transformed rod).
Him coming up with a strategy to counter chibaku tensei was a COMPLETELY different scenario. Chibaku tensei was a juutsu that transformed the landscape around him and pulled the ground itself towards the centre of the black orb. No such transformation of his surroundings will be observed with the enma staff, no reason to assume itachi has intel on the strength of the rod or would be able to deduce and counter it, unlike oro who was hiruzens student and had intel on it as a result.
Anyways im sure blaze release will be able to counter the rest.
Hope we eventually get to see this completed, but Blaze hasn't been around in a couple of months, so seems he's moved on to bigger and better things in life, having the strength to quit discussing this god forsaken manga like the rest of us wish we had.
