1. How is Kaguya a tier above Madara or Hagoromo?
2. How is Rikudou Sennin above Madara?
3. How is Base Naruto above Jinchuuriki Madara or Jinchuriki Obito or Double MS Kakashi?
4. How is 8th Gate Gai below BSM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito, Hashirama or on the same tier as EMS Sasuke?
There are many more, but your list is far from perfect. Especially with 8th Gate Gai's position.
Nope, madara would still perform the same,
if there is a difference it will be due to the enton but as far as susanoo goes, the results would still be similar
Wow, what kind of ridiculous nonsense is this? I dunno how many times I'm gonna have to ask you to prove that the gap is this large only to get no real response but "No feats".
Nope, its not nonsense to state that madaars PS is superior to Sasukes,
and the boost only puts it slightly above madaras,
and claiming that it has no feats, nor any indication of its power, is a valid statement, which is why ur going to be the one who needs to provide proof of ur view,
Sasuke's Legged Susanoo was tiers above Madara's Legged Susanoo.
this is a better durability feat than any of sasukes legged susanoo, and we are talking about a legless susanoo here, his legged variants would just be stronger,
and the more durable the susanoo is, the better the offense it would be, since offense and durability are directly proportional to each other when it comes to susanoo,
Same with PS as the jump from Susanoo doesn't change from user to user, strength between user's differs, not the jump in strength.
Where exactly are you going with this??
the stronger the users chakra the stronger the susanoo thats all there is to it,
sasuke with the rikudo chakra managed to manifest a much superior susanoo that even had 2 blades as opposed to one from his EMS
and despite receiving senjutsu after manifesting PS, his PS still had one blade,
madara regardless of any boost still had 2 blades, and as far as the offense of PS goes, the more the blades the better,
No such fanfictional gap between Madara and Sasuke's Susanoo exist for you to say that Madara's is still superior even after a boost well over 6x the original strength and Senjutsu on top of it.
Lol, the kurama chakra boosted kakashis Kamui by 3 times,
there is no proof that the same percentage of boost will apply to susanoo,
you are going to need proof on claiminig that the boost is ''Well over 6x''
furthermore even if sasukes sussanoo is slightly superior, it is still not superior enough to put him a tier above madara,
so if its anyone who is exaggerating the gap, its you,
And like I said, irrelevant as Sasuke's strikes are much stronger, so he'd break through Madara's offense easier, and hit his Susanoo.
Uh, no, it doesn't. It coming to attrition doesn't change the fact that his best move is still far ahead of Madara's best move, whether or not he can get through Madara's defenses is irrelevant.
Madara posessing more blades would only lead to sasukes susanoo constantly being on the defensive therefore the repeated strikes would result in sasukes susanoo being bypassed,
not to mention that susanoo can withstand alot more energy then its output, so even if sasuke managed to hit madaras PS, the latters PS tanks it, then madara attacks him again, and eventually bypasses it,
so if it comes to whose PS will be overwhelmed first, it will be sasukes not madaras,
and what fanfic ''best move'' are you going on about, they both have PS, and the boost only makes sasukes PS slightly above,
and certainly not above to bypass his PS that easily,
Not really. Sasuke destroys people EMS Madara would lose or stalemate to. For example, Hashirama without Shinsuusenju, stands no chance against Sasuke whatsoever, yet he'd stalemate, if not defeat EMS Madara. Quit mentioning attrition when its irrelevant.
Lmao Hashirama with SM mokujin would still match Sasuke, he is never destroying hashirama,
i can see this coming for Base hashirama, but hashi with all SM jutsus bar SS, is not losing that easily,
and Lol Attrition is not irrelevant at all, seeing how it all deepnds on how much chakra is sasuke granted from his KCC since neither of them are bypassing their defenses that easily, meaning that it all depends on who can maintain their PS the longest, therefore whoever loses their PS first would lose,
Take Sasuke w/o Legged or Perfect Susanoo, what tier does he go in according to you?
so basically EMS sasuke during the zetsu and kabuto fight?
he will be in the same tier as KCM Naruto,
It coming down to attrition only means they'll be tired out, because neither can break through the other's defense, even though that shit isn't even true since they can still string a chain of repeated slashes, and let the damage pile up over time.
The bold emphasises my point even more,
madara can attack sasuke more repeatedly due to possessing more blades,
meaning that sasukes susanoo would have to resort to defense, meaning that if the damages piles up, it will be saasukes that will be bypassed,
nonetheless, my point is that regardless of the boost, sasuke is in now way an entire tier above EMS Madara, with or without the boost
Nope, madara would still perform the same,
if there is a difference it will be due to the enton but as far as susanoo goes, the results would still be similar
Nope, its not nonsense to state that madaars PS is superior to Sasukes, and the boost only puts it slightly above madaras,
and claiming that it has no feats, nor any indication of its power, is a valid statement, which is why ur going to be the one who needs to provide proof of ur view,
Its nonsense to say that Sasuke's Susanoo is weaker after getting boosts that large. That is the nonsensical part. I've seen absolutely no gap as large as you have been implying there is. Yet you are still repeating the same old BS. You keep repeating "No feats" even though that means you have pretty much ZERO basis for stating the bold when there are no feats.
-Where is the gap between their older Susanoo variants that would imply that Madara's PS is over 6x stronger than Sasuke's?
-Why the hell is Sasuke's PS "slightly" stronger than Madara's Susanoo when his Legged Susanoo with the Kurama boost is tiers above Madara's legged Susanoo (Which was enhanced by Hashirama's Senjutsu) with just the Kyuubi boost, not even mentioning Jugo's Senjutsu.
You aren't making any sense at all here. You are doing the same thing and pulling the same shit you pulled in our first argument. You keep saying no feats, I mention the above and get no reply, or when I do get a reply, you ignore the most important question in my post. "What is your basis for stating that Madara's PS is over 6x stronger than Sasuke's?" Its clear that you have none.
If you actually think that Madara's Susanoo is over 6x stronger than Sasuke's, then I have no reason to continue taking this BS seriously.
Proof???
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this is a better durability feat than any of sasukes legged susanoo, and we are talking about a legless susanoo here, his legged variants would just be stronger,
Lol, it didn't tank Bijuu Dama. What it blocked was the impact of Mokujin slamming Bijuu Dama into it, which is not impressive at all. Perfect Susanoo tanked Bijuu Dama, not V4.
Not to mention I was comparing these. Why are we comparing that to a V3? lmfao.
-Madara's Susanoo
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-Sasuke's Susanoo
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Sasuke's Susanoo is shown to be physical equals with the Sage Kurama Avatar after the boost, yet Madara's got slapped into the ground by Naruto's normal Kurama Avatar with no effort at all.
and the more durable the susanoo is, the better the offense it would be, since offense and durability are directly proportional to each other when it comes to susanoo,
True, too bad Madara's Susanoo has no durability feat that surpasses Sasuke, when we talk about a full bodied Complete Susanoo.
-Sasuke's Susanoo protected him from a drop slam from Juubito that made a crater this large and deep.
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Madara's got raped by 9 Tail Slaps and then he even lost his arm.
Where exactly are you going with this??
the stronger the users chakra the stronger the susanoo thats all there is to it,
sasuke with the rikudo chakra managed to manifest a much superior susanoo that even had 2 blades as opposed to one from his EMS
and despite receiving senjutsu after manifesting PS, his PS still had one blade,
I mean that if there is a gap between Madara and Sasuke's Ribcage for example, the gap will remain the same as they jump from Ribcage to Skeletal to Complete and then to Armored. It will not change. Simple math. How any of the stuff you posted here is relevant is beyond me.
madara regardless of any boost still had 2 blades, and as far as the offense of PS goes, the more the blades the better,
Irrelevant when Sasuke's attacks are still much stronger even with one blade. Take away one of Rikudo Sasuke's blades and would his Susanoo be weaker than Madara's? Lmfao. Obviously not.
Lol, the kurama chakra boosted kakashis Kamui by 3 times,
there is no proof that the same percentage of boost will apply to susanoo,
If it boosted his jutsu by 3x, there is literally no reason Susanoo doesn't get the same boost. Get evidence that it doesn't or concede that point.
you are going to need proof on claiminig that the boost is ''Well over 6x''
furthermore even if sasukes sussanoo is slightly superior, it is still not superior enough to put him a tier above madara,
so if its anyone who is exaggerating the gap, its you,
Read above buddy. Kurama's raw chakra gave Kakashi's Kamui a 3x boost. The cloak is stronger, and the cloak formed from both Kurama's powers is even stronger than that. Unless you are actually going as far to imply that Sasuke got a weaker boost from stronger chakra while Kakashi got a stronger boost from weaker chakra, you are wrong.
Madara posessing more blades would only lead to sasukes susanoo constantly being on the defensive therefore the repeated strikes would result in sasukes susanoo being bypassed,
Not really. Far superior Susanoo=Him breaking through its offense.
not to mention that susanoo can withstand alot more energy then its output, so even if sasuke managed to hit madaras PS, the latters PS tanks it, then madara attacks him again, and eventually bypasses it,
so if it comes to whose PS will be overwhelmed first, it will be sasukes not madaras,
So, Sasuke deals much more damage yet Madara breaks through first? Lol, once again, you aren't making sense.
and what fanfic ''best move'' are you going on about, they both have PS, and the boost only makes sasukes PS slightly above,
and certainly not above to bypass his PS that easily,
If you were reading my posts you would obviously see that "best move" refers to PERFECT SUSANOO.
The rest is unsubstantiated BS.
Lmao Hashirama with SM mokujin would still match Sasuke, he is never destroying hashirama,
i can see this coming for Base hashirama, but hashi with all SM jutsus bar SS, is not losing that easily,
Hashirama gets buttraped. Madara's PS matched his. Sasuke with a boost 6x at least>>Madara's Susanoo, thus Hashirama's Mokujin gets destroyed and Sasuke kills Hashirama. Nothing more than moderate difficulty.
and Lol Attrition is not irrelevant at all, seeing how it all deepnds on how much chakra is sasuke granted from his KCC since neither of them are bypassing their defenses that easily, meaning that it all depends on who can maintain their PS the longest, therefore whoever loses their PS first would lose,
And now I've confirmed that you aren't using any logic whatsoever. Madara and Sasuke both have the same level of Susanoo, yet Sasuke's is much stronger due to the boosts, yet you say they should be in the same tier because it comes down to attrition. Sasuke and Itachi have the same level of Susanoo, thus their matches will always come down to attrition and nothing more. Yet you say that Sasuke is 2 tiers above him?
Lol. really now?
The bold emphasises my point even more,
madara can attack sasuke more repeatedly due to possessing more blades,
meaning that sasukes susanoo would have to resort to defense, meaning that if the damages piles up, it will be saasukes that will be bypassed,
If he strikes MUCH harder than Madara why would he need to be on the defensive, he just overpowers his offense. Adding a second blade means jack shit when Sasuke's output is that much higher.
nonetheless, my point is that regardless of the boost, sasuke is in now way an entire tier above EMS Madara, with or without the boost
He's a tier above him with the boost. Saying otherwise is plain ridiculous. When you can successfully prove the following, then we can talk about you being correct:
1. Prove that the gap between Legged Susanoo for Sasuke (w/boost) and Madara (w/Hashirama's Senjutsu) vanishes into thin air when they both jump to PS.
2. Prove that Sasuke's boost was weaker than Kakashi's boost despite getting a stronger cloak.
3. Prove that Madara's Susanoo is even anywhere near 6x stronger than Sasuke's w/o any boosts. Cause no such gap exists in the manga. "No feats" isn't an argument that lets you invent the strength of Sasuke's Susanoo to fit your argument. What are you basing this nonsense on when there are no feats? I've given my reasoning, you've given nothing but "No feats, thus its fodder to Madara's"
Add 8th gate Gai to tier 3. He was running circles around Madara, forcing Madara on the defensive throughout the duration of the fight. Night Guy almost killed him and Madara couldn't react despite Night Guy having a small charge time.
Tier 4:
Yakushi Kabuto (w/Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei)
Orochimaru (w/Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei)
Tier 5:
Late War Arc Uzumaki Naruto (Post Biju Sennin Mode)
Namikaze Minato (Edo Tensei)
Uchiha Madara (Post Gedo Rinne Tensei - Single Rinnegan - Sennin Mode)
Neither Naruto nor Minato have a business being a whole tier above the likes of SM Hashirama, EMS Madara with Kyuubi or 8th gate Gai. Perfect susanoo and 100% Kyuubi gives Madara more firepower than BM Naruto and Hashirama with his Shinsusenju outputs a similar amount of energy.
Tier 6:
Mid War Arc Uzumaki Naruto (Post Biju Mode)
War Arc Uchiha Obito (Rinnegan/Mangekyo Sharingan - Edo Tensei Jinchuriki)
Uchiha Madara (Eien no Mangekyo & Kyuubi)
Uchiha Madara (Edo Tensei)
Senju Hashirama
Hachimon Tonko No Jin Might Gai
Late War Arc Sasuke (EMS + Kyuubi Chakra Cloak) & Juugo
Separate base Hashirama and SM Hashirama.
Tier 7:
Uchiha Madara (Eien no Mangekyo)
Uzumaki Nagato (Edo Tensei - Reguvinated)
Late War Arc Uchiha Sasuke (Eien no Mangekyo)
Killer Bee
Just add KCM Naruto here, no need for him to have his own tier. Also add KCM Minato here as well.
Tier 8:
Early War Arc Uzumaki Naruto (Post Kyuubi Chakra Mode)
Tier 9:
Kabuto Yakushi (Post Sennin Mode Training)
Obito Uchiha (Rinnegan/Mangekyo Sharingan)
Itachi Uchiha (Edo Tensei)
Pain
Tier 10:
Uchiha Itachi (Healthy)
Uchiha Obito (Mangekyo Sharingan)
Namikaze Minato (Alive)
Senju Tobirama
Uzumaki Naruto (War Arc Sennin Mode)
War Arc Kakashi Hatake
Tier 11:
Yugito
Roushi
Han
Utakata
Fu
Kisame
Kakuzu
Third Raikage
Jiriaya
Orochimaru
Muu
2nd Mizukage
Uchiha Itachi (Sick)
Uchiha Sasuke (Mangekyo Sharingan)
Shimura Danzo
Gaara (Post Jinchuriki - Desert)
Deidara
Might Guy
Onoki
Move the jins and Kakuzu down one tier. Gai and Kakashi were taking them on without going all out considering Kakashi was simply using his 3 tomoe sharingan and Raikiri while Gai only used 6th gate and Asakujaku. Not to mention those jins were stronger due to having sharingan precog and Rinnegan linked vision. Kakuzu's best feat was taking on the likes of EP2 Kakashi who can't compete with anyone this far up.
Tier 12:
Uchiha Sasuke (Hebi)
Akasuna no Sasori
War Arc Senju Tsunade
Move Mei, 4th Kazekage and Sakura up to tier 12.
Tier 13:
Yondaime Kazekage (Desert)
Kaguya Kimmimaro
Terumi Mei
Uchiha Sasuke (Early Pt. 2)
Uchiha Fugaku
Hyuuga Hiashi
Hyuuga Hizashi
Kitsuchi
War Arc Choza Akimichi
War Arc Choji Akimichi
Sakura Haruno (Post Byakugo)
Move Choza down, he's weaker than Chouji considering he doesn't have butterfly mode.
Tier 14:
Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old)
Darui
Chiyo
War Arc Kankuro
Uchiha Sasuke (Akatsuki Cloak)
Hyuuga Neji
Rock Lee
Move old Hiruzen up to the same tier as Tsunade. Move Sasuke and Lee up one tier. Consider adding Suigetsu to tier 14.
Tier 15:
Gaara (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Uzumaki Naruto (Valley of The End)
Uchiha Sasuke (Valley of The End)
Jinin
Jinpachi
Ameyuri
Fuguki
Hozuki Mangetsu
Momochi Zabuza
Hidan
Temari
Kankuro
Asuma
Yakushi Kabuto (Pre Orochimaru DNA)
Sai
Uchiha Kagami
Pakura
Gari
InoIchi
Shikaku
Aburame Shino
Karin
Move Temari and SRA Gaara up one tier. Add War arc Kiba and Juugo to this tier.
Tier 16:
Gaara (3rd Exam)
Akatsuchi
Sakura Haruno (Part 2 - Pre Byakugo)
Kakashi Hatake (Gaiden)
Kankuro (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Temari (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Sakon/Ukon
Kidomaro
Tayuya
Jirobo
Neji Hyuuga (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Naruto Uzumaki (3rd Exam)
Choji Akimichi (SRA)
Genma
Raido
Lee (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kiba Inuzuka (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Shikamaru Nara (SRA)
Hayate Gekko
C
Dan
Toroi
Move Genma and Raido up one tier because they are roughly equivalent to two members of the sound four individually.
Tier 17:
Sasuke Uchiha (3rd Exam)
Omoi
Shigure
Karui
Move Omoi and Sasuke up one tier while moving Shigure and Omoi down one tier.
Tier 18:
Haku
Obito Uchiha (Gaiden)
Ebisu
Ino Yamanaka
Ten-Ten
Konohamaru (Pt. 2)
Temari (Chunin Exams)
Iruka
Move Haku up to the same tier as Zabuza.
Tier 19:
Ino (Pt. 1)
Kiba ( Early Pt. 1)
Choji (Early Pt. 1)
Shino (Pt. 1)
Sasuke (Early Pt. 1)
Naruto (Early Pt. 1)
Hinata (Pt. 1)
Ten-Ten (Pt. 1)
Dosu
Zaku
Kin
Shikamaru (Early Pt. 1)
Hinabi
Move Naruto, Sasuke, Shino, Kiba, Shikamaru and Dosu up one tier. Add part one Sakura to this tier or the tier below.
Tier 20:
Gozu
Meizu
Tsurugi
Yoroi
Tier 21:
Mizuki
Konohamaru (Pt.1)
Moegi
Udon
Mizuki should go up two tiers and add Iruka to that tier as well, they are much stronger than part 1 team Konohamaru who aren't even low genin level yet.
Its nonsense to say that Sasuke's Susanoo is weaker after getting boosts that large. That is the nonsensical part. I've seen absolutely no gap as large as you have been implying there is. Yet you are still repeating the same old BS. You keep repeating "No feats" even though that means you have pretty much ZERO basis for stating the bold when there are no feats.
Where exactly did i state that sasukes PS is still weaker?? oh wait i didnt
and also Lol at the fact that you are overrating the boost, and claiming it to be ''far greater than 6 times'' when you have no proof whatsoever on the chakra boost working the same way on susanoo, wwhen its a completely different jutsu, nor do you have any proof on sasukes PS being ''far'' superior to madaras,
nor have you given a proper explanation as to how hes a tier above,
not to mention that i have also provided you a basis, yet you just ignored it, and are overrating the senjutsu boost, throughout ur post
-Where is the gap between their older Susanoo variants that would imply that Madara's PS is over 6x stronger than Sasuke's?
And where are you getting the BS on Sasukes PS being 6 times stronger????
-Why the hell is Sasuke's PS "slightly" stronger than Madara's Susanoo when his Legged Susanoo with the Kurama boost is tiers above Madara's legged Susanoo (Which was enhanced by Hashirama's Senjutsu) with just the Kyuubi boost, not even mentioning Jugo's Senjutsu.
Lol where are you getting this ''tiers'' above BS from????
you're going to need proof on this,
You aren't making any sense at all here. You are doing the same thing and pulling the same shit you pulled in our first argument. You keep saying no feats, I mention the above and get no reply, or when I do get a reply, you ignore the most important question in my post. "What is your basis for stating that Madara's PS is over 6x stronger than Sasuke's?" Its clear that you have none.
Lol at how you have to twist my words and make it seem just so that helps you,
And I will repeat again, what is yur basiis for claiming that sasukes PS is boosted over 6x??
Just because kamui is enhanced 3x from kyuubis chakkra,, doesnt mean that susanoo will be boosted at the same rate, when they are both completely different jutsus,
and what is ur basis on sasukes PS being far superior to madaras,
and please, stop making assumptions when i never stated that madaras PS is over 6x powerful
If you actually think that Madara's Susanoo is over 6x stronger than Sasuke's, then I have no reason to continue taking this BS seriously.
Please just stop with the same thing over and over again,
not to mention that i never stated that its over 6x powerful, so get that out of ur head
Lol, it didn't tank Bijuu Dama. What it blocked was the impact of Mokujin slamming Bijuu Dama into it, which is not impressive at all. Perfect Susanoo tanked Bijuu Dama, not V4.
Nope, we are comparing any susanoo before PS, and that was used to counter ur statement of ''Sasukes susanooo being tiers above'',
which is nothing but wrong,
Madaras V4 legless susanoo tanked a TBB which is a better durabillity feat than all of sasukes legged susanoo
a V4 legged would only just be superior
-Madara's Susanoo
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-Sasuke's Susanoo
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Sasuke's Susanoo is shown to be physical equals with the Sage Kurama Avatar after the boost, yet Madara's got slapped into the ground by Naruto's normal Kurama Avatar with no effort at all.
Just because sasukes susanoo is shown with the kurama avatar doesnt make it equal,
a V3 legged susanoo of Sasuke gets eradicated by a TBB just how madaras V3 would,
unlesss you think that sasuke with V3 legged susanoo is on par with BSM naruto in combat, Lol
True, too bad Madara's Susanoo has no durability feat that surpasses Sasuke, when we talk about a full bodied Complete Susanoo.
, the same blast that completely dwraved, PS, Kyuubi and Mokujin, and turned mountains into paste,
and inb4 V3=/=V4, we are talking about susanoos bar PS , so its still a valid example,
not to mention that again this is a V4 legless, a legged susanoo would only be stronger,
I mean that if there is a gap between Madara and Sasuke's Ribcage for example, the gap will remain the same as they jump from Ribcage to Skeletal to Complete and then to Armored. It will not change. Simple math. How any of the stuff you posted here is relevant is beyond me.
Nope, susanoo depends on user per user,
the stronger the users chakra, the stronger the susanoo,
the gap is only valid per user, so the same math cant be applied to two different users,
Irrelevant when Sasuke's attacks are still much stronger even with one blade. Take away one of Rikudo Sasuke's blades and would his Susanoo be weaker than Madara's? Lmfao. Obviously not.
Rikudo Sasuke >>>>>>>>>>> EMS Sasuke, so its irrelevant,
Madara can attack him alot more repeatedly, and madara can also throw his PS blades right towards sasukes, and throw a barrage of them, meaning that sasukes PS is getting bypassed before madaras,
whether sasukes strikes are stronger or not, madara can still attack him repeatedly, thus putting sasuke on the defensive and allowing him to breach his defense,
Read above buddy. Kurama's raw chakra gave Kakashi's Kamui a 3x boost. The cloak is stronger, and the cloak formed from both Kurama's powers is even stronger than that. Unless you are actually going as far to imply that Sasuke got a weaker boost from stronger chakra while Kakashi got a stronger boost from weaker chakra, you are wrong.
Please you know it as well as i do, that the main offense of PS comes from its blades,, the more the blades the better,
madara can swing 2 of his blades at once, and he can also throw his PS blades,
sasuke is not getting any time to attack, and even if he manages to attack once, madars PS still tanks iit, and then attacks him again,
sasukes PS being superior is still not helpful when he wont be able to use it due to the fact that madara would be constantly attacking him
If you were reading my posts you would obviously see that "best move" refers to PERFECT SUSANOO.
The rest is unsubstantiated BS.
Nope its not BS to claim that sasukes susnaoo would be in the defensive
nor is it BS to claim that they should be in the same tier
Hashirama gets buttraped. Madara's PS matched his. Sasuke with a boost 6x at least>>Madara's Susanoo, thus Hashirama's Mokujin gets destroyed and Sasuke kills Hashirama. Nothing more than moderate difficulty.
The same 6x boost BS again and again,
Hashirama with SM matched madaras PS
hell he even managed to stall kyuubi and PS in base,
he is not losing as easily as u state it out to be,
he can also pin his PS down through myojinmon, that even pinnned down V3 Juubi,,
unless you think that sasukes PS is superior to Juubi Lol,
Attrition isn't relevant when talking about overall strength. This isn't a pure VS. scenario, that's not how tier lists are made.
it is relevant when discussing the outcome of theirr fight,
it is relevant when they both can beat the sme amount of people, meanig that the only comparison left is their own match up
it is relevant when attrition is a major factor in their match up,
And now I've confirmed that you aren't using any logic whatsoever. Madara and Sasuke both have the same level of Susanoo, yet Sasuke's is much stronger due to the boosts, yet you say they should be in the same tier because it comes down to attrition. Sasuke and Itachi have the same level of Susanoo, thus their matches will always come down to attrition and nothing more. Yet you say that Sasuke is 2 tiers above him?
Lol not 2, but one tier above him
Lmao, what exactly are you on about, EMS sasuke wihtout legged susanoo is not a tier above KCM Naruto,
i dont see where you are going with this,
EMS Sasuke is also superior to itachi since he can beat more people than itachi and is overall superior, since he can use his MS to full potential
when it comes to EMS madara, this is not the case, they both can beat the same amount of people and lose to the same amount of people,
and their most powerful jutsu is PS
If he strikes MUCH harder than Madara why would he need to be on the defensive, he just overpowers his offense. Adding a second blade means jack shit when Sasuke's output is that much higher.
It means shit because he wont even be getting any time to swing his blade when its getting pushed around completely, and forced to stay on the defense meaning that the damage piles up, and breaches his susanoo
He's a tier above him with the boost. Saying otherwise is plain ridiculous. When you can successfully prove the following, then we can talk about you being correct:
No its not ridiculous, when they both can beat the same amount of people and lose to the same amount of people,
nor is it ridiculous to state that they both belong in the same tier, Lol
1. Prove that the gap between Legged Susanoo for Sasuke (w/boost) and Madara (w/Hashirama's Senjutsu) vanishes into thin air when they both jump to PS.
it vanishes because madara can constantly attackk him, annd therefore breach his defense before sasuke does
it vanishes because due to FEATS madaras PS is much superior
2. Prove that Sasuke's boost was weaker than Kakashi's boost despite getting a stronger cloak.
Different jutsus different properties, therefore the same rate doesnt apply
3. Prove that Madara's Susanoo is even anywhere near 6x stronger than Sasuke's w/o any boosts. Cause no such gap exists in the manga. "No feats" isn't an argument that lets you invent the strength of Sasuke's Susanoo to fit your argument. What are you basing this nonsense on when there are no feats? I've given my reasoning, you've given nothing but "No feats, thus its fodder to Madara's"
because its simply not 6x,
no feat is an argument, its a perfect argument,
ur fanfic on claiming that sasuke is 6x stronger than madaras PS with his featlesss PS and the fact that hes on the defensive throughout this fight, is whats BS
Where exactly did i state that sasukes PS is still weaker?? oh wait i didnt
and also Lol at the fact that you are overrating the boost, and claiming it to be ''far greater than 6 times'' when you have no proof whatsoever on the chakra boost working the same way on susanoo, wwhen its a completely different jutsu, nor do you have any proof on sasukes PS being ''far'' superior to madaras,
nor have you given a proper explanation as to how hes a tier above,
You said its debatable due to a lack of feats which is a load of shit.
No proof? Lmao, what the fuck? Raw chakra gave Kakashi a 3x boost. A double chakra cloak will give double that amount at the vvery least, which is pretty goddamn generous of me since the cloak was stated to be a much stronger boost than the raw chakra. Only an idiot would continue to argue that Sasuke w/ a double chakra cloak got a smaller boost than Kakashi, who had raw chakra, which was stated to be weaker. If you think it affects them differently, you are the one who needs to prove that. Debating 101 pal. Debating 101.
not to mention that i have also provided you a basis, yet you just ignored it, and are overrating the senjutsu boost, throughout ur post
Kakashi got 3x boost from weaker chakra.
Cloak was stated to be stronger.
He has a cloak double that cloak's power.
Thus he gets a 6x boost. 3X2=6. This isn't rocket science. This is basic math. "Not the same jutsu" is a shitty excuse that has no evidence backing it.
Lol where are you getting this ''tiers'' above BS from????
you're going to need proof on this,
Lol at how you have to twist my words and make it seem just so that helps you,
And I will repeat again, what is yur basiis for claiming that sasukes PS is boosted over 6x?? Just because kamui is enhanced 3x from kyuubis chakkra,, doesnt mean that susanoo will be boosted at the same rate, when they are both completely different jutsus,
and what is ur basis on sasukes PS being far superior to madaras,
Evidence? Cause I'm seeing just about jack shit when it comes to evidence. Evidence that them being different jutsu results in them not getting the same boost, even though Sasuke has the MUCH stronger chakra? Are you even listening to yourself here? Is this is some kind of terrible ass troll post or something? Stronger chakra=Stronger boost. Why the hell is this even debatable.
Once again, you show me that you cannot read the manga.
1. It didn't tank any explosion, so please stop posting the same scan.
2. That reasoning is terrible when by your logic, Hashirama would have tanked the Bijuu Dama with his skin, since that was the last thing shown by the explosion. PS tanked Bijuu Dama. Nothing else. PS was used right before it exploded, just how Mokuton: Hobi no Jutsu was used RIGHT BEFORE IT EXPLODED.
So no, V4 did not, and will not ever tank a Bijuu Dama with no damage.
Nope, we are comparing any susanoo before PS, and that was used to counter ur statement of ''Sasukes susanooo being tiers above'',
which is nothing but wrong,
Adding legs doesn't make it more durable, and no, it never tanked a Bijuu Dama. Read the manga.
Just because sasukes susanoo is shown with the kurama avatar doesnt make it equal,
a V3 legged susanoo of Sasuke gets eradicated by a TBB just how madaras V3 would,
unlesss you think that sasuke with V3 legged susanoo is on par with BSM naruto in combat, Lol
That's why I said physical equals. Are you ever going to start reading the manga and my posts? Or are you going to keep posting this retarded nonsense. They are shown to have the same speed, physical strength and durability (Minus the tails). While BM Naruto was manhandling Madara's Complete Susanoo with a mere tail. When it comes to that aspect: Sasuke's Complete Susanoo w/boost=BSM Kurama>>>BM Kurama>>>Madara's Complete Susanoo. So no, Madara's complete Susanoo is NOWHERE near Sasuke's w/the boost.
Doesn't help that Madara had Senjutsu on his side too.
Nope, tanking TBB and even protecting kurama is a better durability than all of sasukes legged susanoo let alone legless susanoo
Why the hell are you comparing an Armored Susanoo to a Complete Susanoo? Talk about unfair comparisons to substantiate your nonexistent argument. If you are going to compare Susanoo, you obviously compare THE SAME LEVEL.
Not to mention it never tanked Bijuu Dama. Ever.
That drop slam is
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, the same blast that completely dwraved, PS, Kyuubi and Mokujin, and turned mountains into paste, and inb4 V3=/=V4, we are talking about susanoos bar PS , so its still a valid example,
not to mention that again this is a V4 legless, a legged susanoo would only be stronger,
No its not. Do you even know how to compare stuff? Obviously not. When you compare you compare the SAME EXACT LEVEL. That's like me comparing Skeletal to PS to say Madara's Susanoo are overall tiers above Sasuke's, which is a load of horseshit.
Nope, susanoo depends on user per user,
the stronger the users chakra, the stronger the susanoo,
the gap is only valid per user, so the same math cant be applied to two different users,
No shit buddy. The user's chakra doesn't change when he jumps from each level of Susanoo, so that isn't a factor. The user's chakra remains the same so the power level of Susanoo remains the same, and it only changes when you jump up to different levels. Each one is the same jump with the same increase in power, the only difference comes from the strength of the chakra forming it
Rikudo Sasuke >>>>>>>>>>> EMS Sasuke, so its irrelevant, Madara can attack him alot more repeatedly, and madara can also throw his PS blades right towards sasukes, and throw a barrage of them, meaning that sasukes PS is getting bypassed before madaras,
Lol. That isn't the point. The point is, when output greatly surpasses the other's output, more weapons doesn't mean shit at all.
So we've resorted to this nonsense now? When you can prove that PS throwing its blade yields as much damage as PS cutting with its blade then we can talk. Not to mention Sasuke can just do the same exact thing.
whether sasukes strikes are stronger or not, madara can still attack him repeatedly, thus putting sasuke on the defensive and allowing him to breach his defense,
Read the manga. The Sasuke who formed this Susanoo in the manga had it formed from both Kuramas and Naruto. Not gonna post scans as that is a waste of my time and effort. Chapter 644-648. Read.
Nope not when he gets constantly pressured and halted from even attaacking,
Please you know it as well as i do, that the main offense of PS comes from its blades,, the more the blades the better,
madara can swing 2 of his blades at once, and he can also throw his PS blades,
Sasuke's one blade outputs more power than both those blades at once due to his Susanoo being much stronger, thus when they clash, Madara loses. I don't know how you think sword fights work, but the one with more swords isn't the one who is going to win 100% of the time. Makes no damn sense.
Stop using shit logic. More blades doesn't equal a stronger offense when comparing two different leveled Susanoo, not when one of them is much stronger than the other. If ?I used the "More blades=Better Offense" logic, I'd be saying that EMS Madara's Susanoo shits on Rikudo Sasuke's if you take away a sword.
sasukes PS being superior is still not helpful when he wont be able to use it due to the fact that madara would be constantly attacking him
Lets not go there. He ran from PS Kurama in base, only managed to deflect one Bijuu Dama, tried to bind it but had his Mokuton constructs fodderized. I don't know why people try to give him this feat like its impressive, cause the manga shows its not. He ran and there is nothing more to it.
he is not losing as easily as u state it out to be,
When you can show me a Myojinmon large enough to pin Perfect Susanoo, then we can talk. When Susanoo stands there and lets the gates pin it, then yes, we can talk.
it is relevant when discussing the outcome of theirr fight,
it is relevant when they both can beat the sme amount of people, meanig that the only comparison left is their own match up
it is relevant when attrition is a major factor in their match up,
Lol not 2, but one tier above him
Lmao, what exactly are you on about, EMS sasuke wihtout legged susanoo is not a tier above KCM Naruto,
i dont see where you are going with this,
when it comes to EMS madara, this is not the case, they both can beat the same amount of people and lose to the same amount of people,
and their most powerful jutsu is PS
Obviously false. Sasuke's PS w/boost>>>Madara's, by itself. Even with a 3x boost, which is the bare minimum, its still much stronger than Madara's Susanoo. Hashirama gets destroyed by Sasuke, Madara loses. Beating the same amount of people means just about jack shit when Sasuke destroys them and Madara doesn't.
It means shit because he wont even be getting any time to swing his blade when its getting pushed around completely, and forced to stay on the defense meaning that the damage piles up, and breaches his susanoo
In your head, you think Sasuke will stand there as Madara swings his blade at him, which is pure idiocy. Nothing stops him from attacking.
it vanishes because madara can constantly attackk him, annd therefore breach his defense before sasuke does
it vanishes because due to FEATS madaras PS is much superior
Lol, and how the hell is this a reply? Madara being able to attack him doesn't mean that the power gap present before will vanish. At this point I'm clear you aren't even forming coherent arguments any more.
Sasuke's PS w/boost has no feats. Once again, another incoherent reply.
I'll just take your concession on this part. The gap between Sasuke's "Senjutsu Susanoo" and Madara's Legged Susanoo amped by Hashirama's Senjutsu doesn't disappear when we get to the PS level, thus Madara's PS is also that much weaker than Sasuke's PS, thus Sasuke is a tier above him as the OP stated.
Different jutsus different properties, therefore the same rate doesnt apply
No feats is an argument to say that Madara's Susanoo is that much stronger than Sasuke's? Anyone who debates ANYTHING, knows that this shit makes no sense. You don't say "its featless so its weak compared to something else" when there would be no basis to claim that its that much weaker SINCE THERE ARE NO FEATS TO BASE IT OFF OF.
Shit is pathetic.
ur fanfic on claiming that sasuke is 6x stronger than madaras PS with his featlesss PS and the fact that hes on the defensive throughout this fight, is whats BS
@KidGamer, how does EMS Sasuke even stand up to Hashirama? Buddha restricted or not, hM ends the fight before it even begins. The only reason why Madara could stand up to Hashirama during their confrontation was due to his Susano'O's size and ability to hold it back.
Size is irrelevant, strength is what is relevant, and w/ the boosts, Sasuke's is much stronger. It'd probably even be larger too since Sasuke's Legged Susanoo jumped in size after getting the boost.
Sasuke's PS naturally being smaller, indicates that any and every elemental attacks is absorbed by the dragon and PS restrained by either gates/Mokuryu. Hashirama in base also is presumably faster than Sasuke, what about HM? It would be a more fair fight if Hashirama didn't have HM.
And lol? Stronger Susanoo than Madara's means that Mokuryu gets obliterated. The largest gates shown in this series were too small to restrain anything near Perfect Susanoo's size.
Lol, it'd be a slaughter if he didn't have Sage Mode. Base Hashirama can't contend with Madara's PS, he needed a Senjutsu Mokujin to do so. He isn't contending in base with someone who has a PS stronger than Madara's, due to his boosts.
Size is irrelevant, strength is what is relevant, and w/ the boosts, Sasuke's is much stronger. It'd probably even be larger too since Sasuke's Legged Susanoo jumped in size after getting the boost.
Read above.
And lol? Stronger Susanoo than Madara's means that Mokuryu gets obliterated. The largest gates shown in this series were too small to restrain anything near Perfect Susanoo's size.
Lol, it'd be a slaughter if he didn't have Sage Mode. Base Hashirama can't contend with Madara's PS, he needed a Senjutsu Mokujin to do so. He isn't contending in base with someone who has a PS stronger than Madara's, due to his boosts.
Since when was Sasuke's PS stronger than Madara's? Senjutsu? When has a version same size been weaker than other? And how does Senjutsu boost it's strength?
I don't know where you got this from, but enlighten me.
Also, when did Sasuke gain boost in size with legged?
Since when was Sasuke's PS stronger than Madara's? Senjutsu? When has a version same size been weaker than other? And how does Senjutsu boost it's strength?
Since it got Jugo's Senjutsu and Naruto's dual Kurama cloak, which offers a boost much greater than 3x, unless you want to argue that Sasuke got a smaller boost from stronger chakra, which would make no sense. There was no extremely large gap between Madara and Sasuke's Susanoo pre boost, to substantiate his Susanoo being on Sasuke's level after the boost. Which is well over 3x, (6x due to the dual Kurama Cloak) plus Senjutsu. Sasuke's Legged Susanoo was fighting as the Sage Kurama Avatar's physical equal, regular Kurama Avatar manhandled Madara's Legged Susanoo.
Also, when did Sasuke gain boost in size with legged?
His Susanoo was just as big as the Kurama Avatar, as shown in the scan I posted in my last post, Madara's is much smaller than the Kurama Avatar. Unless you think Sasuke's Susanoo is just naturally that much larger, then yeah, it got a boost in size.
Since it got Jugo's Senjutsu and Naruto's dual Kurama cloak, which offers a boost much greater than 3x, unless you want to argue that Sasuke got a smaller boost from stronger chakra, which would make no sense. There was no extremely large gap between Madara and Sasuke's Susanoo pre boost, to substantiate his Susanoo being on Sasuke's level after the boost. Which is well over 3x, (6x due to the dual Kurama Cloak) plus Senjutsu. Sasuke's Legged Susanoo was fighting as the Sage Kurama Avatar's physical equal, regular Kurama Avatar manhandled Madara's Legged Susanoo.
His Susanoo was just as big as the Kurama Avatar, as shown in the scan I posted in my last post, Madara's is much smaller than the Kurama Avatar. Unless you think Sasuke's Susanoo is just naturally that much larger, then yeah, it got a boost in size.
All of this is a hypothesis. Because I don't think it was ever even implied that Susano'O gets bigger from KCC, Senjutsu has no effect on strength nor size nor was BSM or EMS ever equal. Strength? A tail from BSM can restrain Susano'O. PS (Sasuke) or not, 9 tails would turn PS a statue.
What...? I don't understand the point. Did Sasuke ever get slapped by Naruto or anything supposedly as strong? No. In fact, his Susano'O did get destroyed by Obito but it took the efforts of all of the bijū's to destroy Madara's and he pretty much survived. So you can't even compare.
Hypothesis=/=Fact. This is all fact. Taken straight from the manga.
No, it wasn't implied. It was outright shown. Sasuke's Susanoo was never shown to be that big, and unless you think that his Susanoo is naturally that much larger than Madara's, even though the manga tells us otherwise, you are wrong. Even if you are right and Sasuke's Susanoo is that much larger, that'd mean his Perfect Susanoo would be larger than Madara's as well.
So either way you lose, why are you even trying to argue the bold?
Senjutsu has no effect on strength nor size nor was BSM or EMS ever equal.
Lol? Really now? Senjutsu enhances Ninjutsu. Susanoo is Ninjutsu, thus Susanoo gets stronger from Senjutsu. And I never said BSM=EMS. I said Kurama Avatar (Senjutsu)=Senjutsu Susanoo when it comes to physical attributes. Strength, speed and durability (Minus the tails)
Strength? A tail from BSM can restrain Susano'O. PS (Sasuke) or not, 9 tails would turn PS a statue.
Not seeing any kind of evidence, though since there is no manga panel that supports this, I'm not surprised.
What...? I don't understand the point. Did Sasuke ever get slapped by Naruto or anything supposedly as strong? No. In fact, his Susano'O did get destroyed by Obito but it took the efforts of all of the bijū's to destroy Madara's and he pretty much survived. So you can't even compare.
The point is, if two things are physically equal, one won't physically manhandle the other one. Sasuke's Susanoo=Kurama Avatar>>>Madara's Susanoo.
Sasuke's Susanoo was shown to be physical equals (Speed and strength) with Naruto's avatar enhanced by Senjutsu. Naruto slapped Madara's away with no effort, thus Madara's Susanoo<<<Sasuke's Susanoo.
Obito's drop slam>>>>>9 Tail Slaps, evidence by the crater the drop slam made when compared to what the tail slaps did. Even then Madara lost his arm while Sasuke only had light bruises. You are right, you can't even compare. Sasuke's Complete Susanoo enhanced with the cloak and Senjutsu is so far above Madara's that it isn't even funny.
