[VS] Danzo vs Kakuzu

[Pretentious]

Location;

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Intel; manga
Distance; 30m
Mindset; eliminate the opposition
Conditions; KA, may only be utilized to ruse Kakuzu into defusing Doton: Domu -- After deactivation, KA ceases.
Restrictions; --

Self-opinion; Danzo wins.

 

[Beans2]

Kakuzu probably wins. Domu tanks most wind attacks, and Baku gets a fireball to the face while Kakuzu's threads hold him in place.

 

[Pretentious]

Kakuzu probably wins. Domu tanks most wind attacks, and Baku gets a fireball to the face while Kakuzu's threads hold him in place.

I prayed there'd be a white-guise text -- "Conditions; KA, may only be utilized to ruse Kakuzu into defusing Doton: Domu-- After deactivation, KA ceases."

Katon & Futon require mundane efforts to evade (i.e. Shikamaru, Ino, & Choji).
Raiton may require extended effort however, Danzo was capable of mentally reacting to a Susano'o Arrow, erecting the presumption he'd be capable of physically reacting to Kakuzu's Raiton.

From my perspective, Danzo triumphs with mid difficulty.

 

[Beans2]

I prayed there'd be a white-guise text -- "Conditions; KA, may only be utilized to ruse Kakuzu into defusing Doton: Domu-- After deactivation, KA ceases."

I'm aware of this condition. Kakuzu deactivates Domu and Danzo kills one of his hearts, then he comes back to life and now Danzo can't use KA again.

Katon & Futon require mundane efforts to evade (i.e. Shikamaru, Ino, & Choji).
Raiton may require extended effort however, Danzo was capable of mentally reacting to a Susano'o Arrow, erecting the presumption he'd be capable of physically reacting to Kakuzu's Raiton.

Really? I wasn't aware that Baku can evade Katon. Explain to me how this happens?

From my perspective, Danzo triumphs with mid difficulty.

Alright.

 

[Pretentious]

I'm aware of this condition. Kakuzu deactivates Domu and Danzo kills one of his hearts, then he comes back to life and now Danzo can't use KA again.



Really? I wasn't aware that Baku can evade Katon. Explain to me how this happens?



Alright.

No where had I implied, or stated Danzo would summon Baku, or needed it for that matter -- Domu's effect has never been implied to work on Kakuzu whilst present in any other vessel (i.e. masks). Thus, we can only infer from canonical portrayal that Kakuzu's Doton heart, and it's sole ability can only be manipulated through his body.

KA -> Danzo destroys Kakuzu's Doton heart -> Kakuzu's defenses are nil.

Furthermore, Sharingan allows differentiation of chakra color (i.e. Doton - Raiton - Suiton etc.), as seen in Hebi Sasuke vs Deidara; making Kakuzu's Doton heart an even easier target of elimination.

Of course, there's also Izanagi feint tactics, as we've already canonically seen Kakuzu's arrogance work against him -- Danzo mid diff. Though if you, or anyone else can present further arguments I'd love to be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

KA is a waste of energy under these conditions when a 3T genjutsu could of done the same job, though only working once as Kakuzu will catch on the first death.

Baku combo>>Domu anyway. So the best thing Danzo has to do is take out Katon before deciding to officially take out Kakuzu.

This can be done once Danzo slaps a curse seal on Kakuzu. Which the match ends there as he has no way to break out of it. And the Mask moving on its own eventually gets taken out one by one.

No where had I implied, or stated Danzo would summon Baku, or needed it for that matter -- Domu's effect has never been implied to work on Kakuzu whilst present in any other vessel (i.e. masks). Thus, we can only infer from canonical portrayal that Kakuzu's Doton heart, and it's sole ability can only be manipulated through his body.

Doton was confirmed in War arc his own heart. featless Mask was been applied to be Suiton

 

[Beans2]

No where had I implied, or stated Danzo would summon Baku, or needed it for that matter -- Domu's effect has never been implied to work on Kakuzu whilst present in any other vessel (i.e. masks). Thus, we can only infer from canonical portrayal that Kakuzu's Doton heart, and it's sole ability can only be manipulated through his body.

Then I'm not sure why you brought up katon and fuuton being easily avoided when I specifically only mentioned Katon being in regards to countering Baku.

KA -> Danzo destroys Kakuzu's Doton heart -> Kakuzu's defenses are nil.

Even if Kakuzu himself is under the effects of KA, his masks are not. Therefore they can defend him from Danzo as he tries to kill the earth heart in Kakuzu's body. Or, the hearts just break him out of genjutsu.

Furthermore, Sharingan allows differentiation of chakra color (i.e. Doton - Raiton - Suiton etc.), as seen in Hebi Sasuke vs Deidara; making Kakuzu's Doton heart an even easier target of elimination.

Kakashi was surprised by the fact that Kakuzu had Katon and Raiton despite him seeing all the masks, so your assumption that different chakra natures have different color chakras in front of sharingan users is false.

Of course, there's also Izanagi feint tactics, as we've already canonically seen Kakuzu's arrogance work against him -- Danzo mid diff. Though if you, or anyone else can present further arguments I'd love to be persuaded otherwise.

I'm not trying to persuade you. I just stated my opinion on who wins. You have as well, three times.

 

[Pretentious]

KA is a waste of energy under these conditions when a 3T genjutsu could of done the same job, though only working once as Kakuzu will catch on the first death.

Baku combo>>Domu anyway. So the best thing Danzo has to do is take out Katon before deciding to officially take out Kakuzu.

This can be done once Danzo slaps a curse seal on Kakuzu. Which the match ends there as he has no way to break out of it. And the Mask moving on its own eventually gets taken out one by one.



Doton was confirmed in War arc his own heart. featless Mask was been applied to be Suiton

It's doubtful Danzo's generic Sharingan Genjutsu would do the job against Kakuzu, that in itself it underrating Kakuzu's perceptive skills, along with the fact we've yet to see Danzo perform any reality-illusive Genjutsu such as Itachi to keep Kakuzu from realizing fact, from fiction.

Baku combo doesn't > Domu, that's an asinine claim, as we've no clue of Domu's durability canonically, so we can only presume Kakuzu's quote yields true.

If Doton was in fact confirmed to be Kakuzu's true heart, this match-up stagnantly remains a mid difficulty scuffle.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

It's doubtful Danzo's generic Sharingan Genjutsu would do the job against Kakuzu, that in itself it underrating Kakuzu's perceptive skills, along with the fact we've yet to see Danzo perform any reality-illusive Genjutsu such as Itachi to keep Kakuzu from realizing fact, from fiction.

Danzo does not need to reveal the Sharingan until he needs it. Though revealing his arm'd Sharingan would mean Kakuzu would most likely know he will have one behind his patch. @Strike is irrelevant but since I concede my point of regular Genjutsu doing the job, no need to elaborate.

Baku combo doesn't > Domu, that's an asinine claim, as we've no clue of Domu's durability canonically, so we can only presume Kakuzu's quote yields true.

Um no its not a ridiculous claim. It was canonically defeated by Raikiri penetration force. Though it was a natural advantage, Kakuzu commented on the level of it Raiton's attack capable of accomplishing the feat. An augment Futon from Danzo made it go to a level that was able to bust open a much stronger/harder defense via V3 Susanoo.

 

[NarutoX28]

Danzo can win because regardless of the elemental advantage, Kakuzu has no method of defending himself against Danzo's attacks at close-range, including his Fuinjutsu which easily tampers with Kakuzu's ability of not only using Domu, but also channeling his chakra in order to use his elemental ninjutsu. Without any means of escaping Danzo's grasp, Kakuzu's victory seems rather elusive if not, impossible.

 

[Booker]

The only thing giving Danzo the win here is his 10-minute Izanagi spam. Otherwise he'd be beaten high diff.
Danzo mid diff.

 

[Pretentious]

Then I'm not sure why you brought up katon and fuuton being easily avoided when I specifically only mentioned Katon being in regards to countering Baku.



Even if Kakuzu himself is under the effects of KA, his masks are not. Therefore they can defend him from Danzo as he tries to kill the earth heart in Kakuzu's body. Or, the hearts just break him out of genjutsu.



Kakashi was surprised by the fact that Kakuzu had Katon and Raiton despite him seeing all the masks, so your assumption that different chakra natures have different color chakras in front of sharingan users is false.



I'm not trying to persuade you. I just stated my opinion on who wins. You have as well, three times.

Sure, we can go down the route of subtlety, you're not attempting to prove why Kakuzu beats Danzo, therefore you're not attempting to persuade me on the outcome of this match. Therefore further inquiry will be fruitless i.e. there's no point in us continuing to quote each other.

Danzo does not need to reveal the Sharingan until he needs it. Though revealing his arm'd Sharingan would mean Kakuzu would most likely know he will have one behind his patch. @Strike is irrelevant but since I concede my point of regular Genjutsu doing the job, no need to elaborate.



Um no its not a ridiculous claim. It was canonically defeated by Raikiri penetration force. Though it was a natural advantage, Kakuzu commented on the level of it Raiton's attack capable of accomplishing the feat. An augment Futon from Danzo made it go to a level that was able to bust open a much stronger/harder defense via V3 Susanoo.

Happy to agree on the first segment -- The second not so much, as they're mere presumptions on the basis of the unknown; i.e. we've not witnessed the limit of Doton: Domu, but we've a clear statement from both manga, and databook (if i'm not mistaken) that Domu cannot be penetrated by physical attacks aside from Raiton, and perhaps Gentle Fist (internal).

This is similar to Yata Mirror -- We've yet to see Yata Mirror block anything aside from Orochimaru's Eight Branch technique, yet both manga, and DB state it's impenetrable. This however, all relates back to perspective -- I take what is given, and follow, while you establish limitations based on personal claims.

Danzo can win because regardless of the elemental advantage, Kakuzu has no method of defending himself against Danzo's attacks at close-range, including his Fuinjutsu which easily tampers with Kakuzu's ability of not only using Domu, but also channeling his chakra in order to use his elemental ninjutsu. Without any means of escaping Danzo's grasp, Kakuzu's victory seems rather elusive if not, impossible.

This consensus I agree with -- Per-say Danzo Izanagi feints, then reestablishes himself behind Kakuzu, then utilizes his Fuinjutsu -- Would the efforts required list this match-up as a low, or mid difficulty battle?

The only thing giving Danzo the win here is his 10-minute Izanagi spam. Otherwise he'd be beaten high diff.
Danzo mid diff.

Izanagi isn't required, and I wholeheartedly believe this. Kakuzu's elemental techniques aren't agile by any standards. Sharingan precognition would allow Danzo to effortlessly elude any elemental assaults, well as tendrils.

A sequence of elimination would quickly be established through Sharingan's capability of chakra color differentiation; Katon -> Doton -> p - > q -> r.

Once the two vital hearts are eliminated (Katon & Doton), this match becomes child's play.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Happy to agree on the first segment -- The second not so much, as they're mere presumptions on the basis of the unknown; i.e. we've not witnessed the limit of Doton: Domu, but we've a clear statement from both manga, and databook (if i'm not mistaken) that Domu cannot be penetrated by physical attacks aside from Raiton, and perhaps Gentle Fist (internal).

They arent unknown based on the fact on what I already explained. We know not every Raiton can simply bust Domu as Kakuzu implied. And we know the level of Danzo's attack with Baku by feats. The attack power far surpasses the damage Raikiri can do, so it gets the job done as Raikiri did.

DB states there are almost none other jutsu, with the exception of Raiton, that can beat this defense.

Drop this argument its not going to work. It is in fact a fallacy with that logic.

This is similar to Yata Mirror -- We've yet to see Yata Mirror block anything aside from Orochimaru's Eight Branch technique, yet both manga, and DB state it's impenetrable. This however, all relates back to perspective -- I take what is given, and follow, while you establish limitations based on personal claims.

Its not similar to Yata. Raikiri has shown the attack level needed to defeat it. None has shown against Yata. Theres nothing personal in my claims. One attack I mentioned is superior damage then the one that defeated the Domu.

Izanagi isn't required, and I wholeheartedly believe this. Kakuzu's elemental techniques aren't agile by any standards. Sharingan precognition would allow Danzo to effortlessly elude any elemental assaults, well as tendrils.

Then you are simply overating Danzo, which Izanagi clearly is needed to defeat Kakuzu. Otherwise he gets the same treatment as Kakashi.

A sequence of elimination would quickly be established through Sharingan's capability of chakra color differentiation; Katon -> Doton -> p - > q -> r.

Speculation and fighting Sharingan Kakashi debunks these claims.

 

[Pretentious]

They arent unknown based on the fact on what I already explained. We know not every Raiton can simply bust Domu as Kakuzu implied. And we know the level of Danzo's attack with Baku by feats. The attack power far surpasses the damage Raikiri can do, so it gets the job done as Raikiri did.

DB states there are almost none other jutsu, with the exception of Raiton, that can beat this defense.

Drop this argument its not going to work. It is in fact a fallacy with that logic.



Its not similar to Yata. Raikiri has shown the attack level needed to defeat it. None has shown against Yata. Theres nothing personal in my claims. One attack I mentioned is superior damage then the one that defeated the Domu.



Then you are simply overating Danzo, which Izanagi clearly is needed to defeat Kakuzu. Otherwise he gets the same treatment as Kakashi.



Speculation and fighting Sharingan Kakashi debunks these claims.

Hysterical. Lightning > Doton, any Raiton of substantial strength would be capable of breaking through Domu your presumption that "not every raiton" could destroy Domu is blind ignorance -- Gian is B-ranked, yet with enough chakra, and control it >/= Raikiri; I've no idea where you've gotten the presumption just because Raiton > Domu, that any other elemental attacks will do the same.

What you're saying is in fact not only imaginary and fictitious, but as I stated before asinine in every right.

Clearly I'm not overrating Danzo -- Kakuzu's elemental ninjutsu are slow, Danzo is substantially more agile than Shikamaru, Ino, and Choji all of which who've evaded 2/3 offensive elements Kakuzu harbors (excluding Doton obviously).

Speculation & fighting Kakashi offer nothing in defense for Kakuzu, only fools would play on such a premise;

Danzo easily evades Kakuzu's elemental assaults -- Destroys the wind, fire, and lightning masks with ease. Whilst Kakuzu's initial mask (Doton) is destroyed through KA manipulation.

I encourage you to enforce arguments for Kakuzu, I'll rebuttal back with the restriction of Izanagi.

 

[LuckyMan]

@Pretentious

Raikiri is S rank and rank only determines how difficult/dangerous a technique is to perform.

 

[Pretentious]

@Pretentious

Raikiri is S rank and rank only determines how difficult/dangerous a technique is to perform.

Correct. And lethality is determined by what? Power. i.e. deadly chakra proportions.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Hysterical. Lightning > Doton, any Raiton of substantial strength would be capable of breaking through Domu your presumption that "not every raiton" could destroy Domu is blind ignorance.

Your reasoning just repeated what I just said, so how the hell is that blind ignorance?

I've no idea where you've gotten the presumption just because Raiton > Domu, that any other elemental attacks will do the same.

Based on the fact that I never said any other elements can do the same? I stated twice now, that the attack power of Danzo's is the reason.

Clearly I'm not overrating Danzo -- Kakuzu's elemental ninjutsu are slow, Danzo is substantially more agile than Shikamaru, Ino, and Choji all of which who've evaded 2/3 offensive elements Kakuzu harbors (excluding Doton obviously).

Clearly you are. Every Wide Scale ninjutsu in this manga has ever rely on speed so mentioning that is irrelevant. What you cant argue is Danzo outperforming Kakashi in that fight so he gets the same treatment, simple.

Speculation & fighting Kakashi offer nothing in defense for Kakuzu, only fools would play on such a premise;

Funny how you didnt get the point of me quoting that specific statement. I refuted this point to show that line of reason doesnt work. As much as you refuted the point that 3T genjutsu would be enough to defeat Kakuzu first life. Does it change my point of the overall match up? Nope.

Danzo easily evades Kakuzu's elemental assaults -- Destroys the wind, fire, and lightning masks with ease. Whilst Kakuzu's initial mask (Doton) is destroyed through KA manipulation.

Never argued against thread conditions in play

I encourage you to enforce arguments for Kakuzu, I'll rebuttal back with the restriction of Izanagi.[/SIZE][/FONT]

My argument: "Danzo cant outperform Kakashi without Izanagi, therefore gets the same treatment as Kakashi in canon".

 

[Pretentious]

Your reasoning just repeated what I just said, so how the hell is that blind ignorance?



Based on the fact that I never said any other elements can do the same? I stated twice now, that the attack power of Danzo's is the reason.



Clearly you are. Every Wide Scale ninjutsu in this manga has ever rely on speed so mentioning that is irrelevant. What you cant argue is Danzo outperforming Kakashi in that fight so he gets the same treatment, simple.



Funny how you didnt get the point of me quoting that specific statement. I refuted this point to show that line of reason doesnt work. As much as you refuted the point that 3T genjutsu would be enough to defeat Kakuzu first life. Does it change my point of the overall match up? Nope.



Never argued against w/ Izanagi in play



My argument: "Danzo cant outperform Kakashi without Izanagi, therefore gets the same treatment as Kakashi in canon".

You're not understanding anything, firstly how do you confuse KA, and Izanagi in that separated quote? This is quite irritating, I'll form a basis of why Danzo > Kakuzu without Izanagi momentarily.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

You're not understanding anything, firstly how do you confuse KA, and Izanagi in that separated quote? This is quite irritating, I'll form a basis of why Danzo > Kakuzu without Izanagi momentarily.

read edit

 

[LuckyMan]

Correct. And lethality is determined by what? Power. i.e. deadly chakra proportions.

Not necessarily. A difficult/dangerous technique to use isn't always lethal: Shadow Clones. Lethality is NOT determined by power or high chakra proportions. The Hyuga clan is a perfect example. They exert tiny amounts of microscopic chakra needles from their fingertips and they can kill you with one soft poke to the heart. What makes a technique lethal are it's mechanics, not it's chakra proportions.

Chakra proportions determine the size of the technique. For example, If Sasuke pumped a shitton of chakra into his Amaterasu, he'd spray a lot of it but it won't make the fire more inextinguishable or strong enough to burn through a jinchuriki cloak. If Onoki pumps a shitton of chakra in his Jinton, it doesn't turn things lower (subatomic) than atomic level, it'll just be big as hell.