[VS] Danzo vs Kakashi

[Haizaki]

Any technique has seen can be copied. Madara was copying Mouton and Ranton techniques 80 years later, and he had no reason to copy KKG which he cannot copy. Kakashi not being able to copy the techniques he's seen Itachi or Kakuzu use is rather fallacious, especially when he's the "Copy Ninja" and he has all chakra natures. If he saw them=he has access to them, regardless of how many times you can say 'feats or gtfo'.

The bold pretty much...There's no evidence that it was copied? That's what you believe by saying "it can" even though I didn't argue against that, I'm asking "Was it?" because when he copies a Jutsu we've seen him encounter, we're shown the Jutsu or at least noted that he has copied it . Being a copy Ninja doesn't mean he copied everything he has seen even if he can. You have no evidence on everything he has copied and everything he hasn't copied except for what he's shown to us.

At the same time I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you have less evidence on your side to make such a claim since hasn't shown to us the Fire style he's capable of using or if he's even copied a Jutsu worked out by the Uchiha

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. Him seeing them=/=Him having access to them when the Manga hasn't made it clear that he has this in his arsenal. He's not even listed as a user in the DB and has never shown this technique ever...That's an assumption on your part. You have no evidence but an assumption that he can do it. There's a difference between being able to copy it and if he actually copied it...He might be able to do so but did he?

Suiton Bunshin's would instantly spawn from the water, they don't need any prep [

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]. Kakashi has used Kisame's shark [

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] and he has used powerful Suiton's that Zabuza could use [

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][

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]. Defensive jutsu like his Suiton Wall are also really effective [

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], given it blocked a large explosion in the past and stopped these drilling bullets. I do feel like Water locations give Kakashi a massive power-up, especially when you add in that Raiton attacks like his running panther can be conducted in the water to Danzo's surprise.

- That first scan isn't a clone spawning. It's the clone being stabbed but yes I agree they can be formed quickly though they need a hand seal

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which the Sharingan can see through.

- How's Kakashi going to do all these and get past Danzo who has different Sharingans to anticipate him?

- From what I recall, Lightning is weak against Wind. Plus Danzo's eyes won't be surprised when it can anticipate Kakashi.


Baku can't be countered and Kakashi can't really hide from Danzo who can regenerate and bind him with a cursed seal if it comes to a CQC with 0 intel.

 

[Apêx1]

The bold pretty much...There's no evidence that it was copied? That's what you believe by saying "it can" even though I didn't argue against that, I'm asking "Was it?" because when he copies a Jutsu we've seen him encounter, we're shown the Jutsu or at least noted that he has copied it . Being a copy Ninja doesn't mean he copied everything he has seen even if he can. You have no evidence on everything he has copied and everything he hasn't copied except for what he's shown to us.

At the same time I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you have less evidence on your side to make such a claim since hasn't shown to us the Fire style he's capable of using or if he's even copied a Jutsu worked out by the Uchiha

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. Him seeing them=/=Him having access to them when the Manga hasn't made it clear that he has this in his arsenal. He's not even listed as a user in the DB and has never shown this technique ever...That's an assumption on your part. You have no evidence but an assumption that he can do it. There's a difference between being able to copy it and if he actually copied it...He might be able to do so but did he?

Yet Madara copied Mokuton and Ranton almost a 100 years later. Did he copy them at the time? No, because he didn't have those KKG. I have evidence on everything that was shown in the manga, and that range of jutsu is pretty large. I'm not saying he can copy any jutsu that he hasn't seen, or that we haven't seen him perceive. I don't need evidence for me to substantiate this claim. Any jutsu he's seen is a jutsu which he can copy at any point in his life, even if it is KKG (he'd need to obtain that KKG, but once he does he can do it - just like Madara).

You're saying that there's no evidence that he has those jutsu, I know. But I'm telling you any jutsu he's seen is a jutsu which he can copy, given the case with Madara. The manga didn't show him using them=him not having them. Only because Lee didn't use Asa Kujaku doesn't mean he doesn't have it, only because Madara hasn't shown Shinra Tensei doesn't mean he doesn't have it. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

- That first scan isn't a clone spawning. It's the clone being stabbed but yes I agree they can be formed quickly though they need a hand seal

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which the Sharingan can see through.

- How's Kakashi going to do all these and get past Danzo who has different Sharingans to anticipate him?

- From what I recall, Lightning is weak against Wind. Plus Danzo's eyes won't be surprised when it can anticipate Kakashi.


Baku can't be countered and Kakashi can't really hide from Danzo who can regenerate and bind him with a cursed seal if it comes to a CQC with 0 intel.

I meant something like this

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And doesn't mean anything tbh, Kakashi's Sharingan at 3T was too slow to see Itachi's hand seal speed at the time, and Kakashi was able to prevent Itachi from seeing his hand seals on multiple occasions. Danzo's eye won't be adept enough to see them

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-Lol, since when are Danzo's arm's Sharingan connected to his optic nerve? As far as I am concerned they don't see and the only thing they can do is allow him a longer Izanagi. The eyes were never even shown to move iirc, it's not some kind of shared vision, lol. Kakashi is also far, far faster then Danzo. He was fighting with v2 Jin's that have been portrayed to have absolutely insane speed in the manga on multiple occasions. He was keeping up with 6G Gai's speed just fine, on a few occasions too. Since when can Danzo react to that type of speed physically, because 6G Gai and Kakashi are faster then Sasuke by quite a bit?

-Lightning is weak against wind, but that won't matter given Kakashi is far more adept with ninjutsu, given Kakshi's MS pre-cog is superior to Danzo's 3T pre-cog, given kakashi has Katon, given Kakashi can outright blitz Danzo. Also, Danzo was suffering from chakra problems in the fight with Sasuke. Izanagi doesn't fix that. He used several Futon's, a seal, Izanagi for several minutes and a Mokuton and he was already turning off his Izanagi to conserve chakra. Soon enough his entire arm left his body because he couldn't control Hashirama's cells. Kakashi can push him beyond that point without much problem given his War Arc reserves.

Katon stomps Baku and Kakshi's original Kage Bunshin replacement will allow him to gain intel on the cursed seal.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

1.Apex where are you getting your info from via Madara recorded other KKG for future hold. Databook states Yin lightening and Ranton attack came from after gaining six path's power.

2. Your are overrating Kakashi thinking he can move and use Katon against Baku's suction, when Baku was capable of holding down Susanoo. It was keeping Sasuke from getting swallowed.

3. There still no evidence that War arc Kakashi is capable of all charka natures (since it was implied he knows only 3(I'm not including yin and yang). Base on Naruto and Sasuke, when they gain Rikudou, DB went by their recent capability. The same could be said for Kakashi. It could all mean experiencing Rikodou chakra made him unlock all chakra nature potential.

 

[Apêx1]

Why is this guy still replying to me? If somebody wants to use his points then I'll gladly debate them, but I won't really bother with your trash arguments.

Here is indubitable proof for anyone who still doubts that Kakashi does not have every chakra nature [

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].

 

[Haizaki]

Yet Madara copied Mokuton and Ranton almost a 100 years later. Did he copy them at the time? No, because he didn't have those KKG. I have evidence on everything that was shown in the manga, and that range of jutsu is pretty large. I'm not saying he can copy any jutsu that he hasn't seen, or that we haven't seen him perceive. I don't need evidence for me to substantiate this claim. Any jutsu he's seen is a jutsu which he can copy at any point in his life, even if it is KKG (he'd need to obtain that KKG, but once he does he can do it - just like Madara).

You're saying that there's no evidence that he has those jutsu, I know. But I'm telling you any jutsu he's seen is a jutsu which he can copy, given the case with Madara. The manga didn't show him using them=him not having them. Only because Lee didn't use Asa Kujaku doesn't mean he doesn't have it, only because Madara hasn't shown Shinra Tensei doesn't mean he doesn't have it. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I'm going to disagree because there's no solid proof and this is your assumption which isn't confirmed by the Manga. Everything here is what you believe despite never been shown by the Manga. We don't know the skill he possesses when it comes to Fire Release nor do we even know whether Kakashi did copy that Jutsu except assume. Hence Kakashi cannot use it from what we know. 1. No information on his level of skill when it comes to fire style. 2. No evidence that he copied it.

Madara shouldn't count because they have been show. Lee's argument doesn't matter because it has been stated MP works by opening up to 6 Gates which he has shown to us. Nothing to do with whether Kakashi copied it or not.

Lastly, Kakashi wears a mask so I wonder how he's going to accomplish such before he's sucked in for death?


The bold is not the case here. Madara possesses the Rinnegan that grants him that ability...Kakashi possesses the Sharingan that enables him to copy techniques. Did he copy something he didn't have? Your beliefs is yes with no convincing evidence. Especially when we have 0 information on his Fire style skill.

I meant something like this

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And doesn't mean anything tbh, Kakashi's Sharingan at 3T was too slow to see Itachi's hand seal speed at the time, and Kakashi was able to prevent Itachi from seeing his hand seals on multiple occasions. Danzo's eye won't be adept enough to see them

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That was a clone.

1.

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--->

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They have different experience from the real user.

2. The Doton?...Itachi was the one who prevented himself from seeing Kakashi with his firestyle

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3. That Jutsu Kakashi used doesn't require hand seals. We see Kabuto using hand seals for Raiton but shortly using a Doton in the bottom panel

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. DB doesn't give it seals as well.

3. That was not the real Itachi. Just a clone which was in proportion with the Chakra given to him.

-Lol, since when are Danzo's arm's Sharingan connected to his optic nerve? As far as I am concerned they don't see and the only thing they can do is allow him a longer Izanagi. The eyes were never even shown to move iirc, it's not some kind of shared vision, lol. Kakashi is also far, far faster then Danzo. He was fighting with v2 Jin's that have been portrayed to have absolutely insane speed in the manga on multiple occasions. He was keeping up with 6G Gai's speed just fine, on a few occasions too. Since when can Danzo react to that type of speed physically, because 6G Gai and Kakashi are faster then Sasuke by quite a bit?

Assuming they can't but even so, he still has his MS to do so in his eyes. What made you think he was keeping up with 6G Gai? My guess is because they were shown moving on the same horizontal line? Nope. Multile occasions I can use to debunk this since Lee has been shown moving on the same line. If not then I wonder what brought that up? Because they fought Jins together? That's not a way to determine such.

In my opinion it shouldn't make sense that Kakashi who according to the DB is slower than Base Gai and inferior to him in Taijutsu but can somehow keep up with him in these aspects in a much stronger mode. Assuming he can react, that's not strong enough to convince one that Danzo won't be able to keep up.


Danzo could react to Sasuke as well

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,

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and Sasuke is around Kakashi's level. He kept up with him and could react despite not looking

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even while greatly weakened with a bad eye sight

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-Lightning is weak against wind, but that won't matter given Kakashi is far more adept with ninjutsu, given Kakshi's MS pre-cog is superior to Danzo's 3T pre-cog, given kakashi has Katon, given Kakashi can outright blitz Danzo. Also, Danzo was suffering from chakra problems in the fight with Sasuke. Izanagi doesn't fix that. He used several Futon's, a seal, Izanagi for several minutes and a Mokuton and he was already turning off his Izanagi to conserve chakra. Soon enough his entire arm left his body because he couldn't control Hashirama's cells. Kakashi can push him beyond that point without much problem given his War Arc reserves.

Why won't it matter? That should mean Danzo can at least counter his Jutsu with his own superior nature. Danzo would be using his MS pre cognition since he has Shisui's eye. KA is the only thing restricted.

Kakashi can't outright blitz somone that could react and keep up with Sasuke...Someone Sasuke couldn't outright blitz when Sasuke himself could keep up with Kakashi when they fought. Chakra problems won't be an issue before Kakashi is dealt with.

Katon stomps Baku and Kakshi's original Kage Bunshin replacement will allow him to gain intel on the cursed seal.

Kakashi isn't going to leave his clone alone to fight Danzo? Danzo's large scale Fuuton might one shot. If he wants, he can leave himself opened for an attack and then use Izanagi to finish the Kage Bunshin from his blind spot. Like this:

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Just that there'll be no one to warn the clone before it's killed. That's half of Kakashi's chakra gone. Mind you, is Kakashi going to be watching underwater where he won't see easily or rather can't breathe in? Plus Danzo would notice Kakashi here.

I've addressed Baku being able to finish him off.

 

[Brooks]

Why are we bringing up yin an yang? It is reality simulation. Sakura felt the same before and during the genjutsu. Even when she saw sasuke she genuinely believed he was hurt. Just like danzo believed he had an eye left, or believed itachi was there. I'll admit I'm a little off base on the zabuza one since it's more akin to hypnosis or gaslighting.

Because Yin release(Genjutsu) governn the imagination(allowing one to create what he/she wants on their target) which you're confusing with reality simulation genjutsu. The genjutsu Kakashi used on Sakura was out right retarded for two reasons and she should have been able see through it if not for her fangirl nature towards Sasuke.

1.Kakashi was their sensei and for her to think he slaughtered Sasuke over a bell test is the first clue one would have it's genjutsu as it's unbelievable event, but Sakura desperately wanted to believe Sasuke needed her help that she fall for it without a single thought.

2.Sasuke shouldn't have been able to walk or mover for that matter as his left leg was broken and his left arm was completely cut off or the fact he had a bloody kunai in face and few other weapons on his back.​

Spoiler

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Danzo believed he had another eye left because the environment did change, while the Itachi case was different since Danzo was aware of Itachi's death and the fact that Itachi who wasn't there a second ago would appear out of nowhere.​

Spoiler

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Susanoo arrow hype comes from its flying speed. It's prep time is actually quite long, so you're not saying much there. But if you're harping for a comparable feat I'd say him saving himself sakura and obito from lava.

Thx.

Susanoo aiming his arrow shouldn't take that long at all as a less physically weaker form of Susanoo was able swing his giant sword around in a second.​

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Because Yin release(Genjutsu) governn the imagination(allowing one to create what he/she wants on their target) which you're confusing with reality simulation genjutsu. The genjutsu Kakashi used on Sakura was out right retarded for two reasons and she should have been able see through it if not for her fangirl nature towards Sasuke.

1.Kakashi was their sensei and for her to think he slaughtered Sasuke over a bell test is the first clue one would have it's genjutsu as it's unbelievable event, but Sakura desperately wanted to believe Sasuke needed her help that she fall for it without a single thought.

2.Sasuke shouldn't have been able to walk or mover for that matter as his left leg was broken and his left arm was completely cut off or the fact he had a bloody kunai in face and few other weapons on his back.​

Spoiler

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Danzo believed he had another eye left because the environment did change, while the Itachi was different since Danzo was aware of Itachi's dead and the fact that Itachi who wasn't there a second ago would appear out of nowhere.​

Spoiler

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Susanoo aiming his arrow shouldn't take long at all as a less physically weaker form of Susanoo was able swing his giant sword around in a second.​

Both is Yin release. Reality simulation and hypnosis. In fact all genjutsu falls under yin. Calling it retarded doesn't change it from happening. He simulated her environment then added sasuke. He did the same against Zabuza while adding another zabuza to further confuse him.

No danzo wasn't aware. He fell for the genjutsu then realized his error. It's not like when kakashi's clone fought itachi's clone and Kakashi was completely unaffected. The scan you posted shows it clear as day.

It does take some time, seeing as itachi had to set up a distraction for him to prep it against kabuto.

 

[Apêx1]

I'm going to disagree because there's no solid proof and this is your assumption which isn't confirmed by the Manga. Everything here is what you believe despite never been shown by the Manga. We don't know the skill he possesses when it comes to Fire Release nor do we even know whether Kakashi did copy that Jutsu except assume. Hence Kakashi cannot use it from what we know. 1. No information on his level of skill when it comes to fire style. 2. No evidence that he copied it.

Madara shouldn't count because they have been show. Lee's argument doesn't matter because it has been stated MP works by opening up to 6 Gates which he has shown to us. Nothing to do with whether Kakashi copied it or not.

Lastly, Kakashi wears a mask so I wonder how he's going to accomplish such before he's sucked in for death?[


The bold is not the case here. Madara possesses the Rinnegan that grants him that ability...Kakashi possesses the Sharingan that enables him to copy techniques. Did he copy something he didn't have? Your beliefs is yes with no convincing evidence. Especially when we have 0 information on his Fire style skill.

Your reasoning is wrong. I obviously can't show you it being the case, but Madara is enough proof. Here's Edo Madara using Mokuton that he's copied from Hashirama, none of them are Mokuton that he himself developed. They are ALL from Hashirama [

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][

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][

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][

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]
Then there's the fact that he's using Ranton techniques [

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][

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]. So once again, any jutsu he sees is copied, he doesn't need to copy it at the time, since Madara would have had no reason to copy those jutsu without having the KKG, yet he replicated them almost a 100 years later. Sure, the Juubi/Rinnegan gave him the ability to use KKG, doesn't change the fact that he must have seen those techniques in the past to do them, unless you think he can pretty much create any KKG jutsu/KKT he desires by just thinking about it. And yes, we don't know the skill he possesses, but we do know that his Suiton has matched Suiton affinity users like Zabuza, his Doton has been pretty overpowered, so saying his other ninjutsu are Chunin level despite his insane chakra control is rather idiotic. Your chakra control is the sole decider for your ability to use ninjutsu that isn't your affinity. So even if it isn't of comparable level to the ones he saw, it's still a usable technique to shit on things like Baku.

Not sure how him wearing a mask will mean he dies lmao. Convey your point more clearly.

That was a clone.

1.

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--->

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They have different experience from the real user.


2. The Doton?...Itachi was the one who prevented himself from seeing Kakashi with his firestyle

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Based on what was that a clone from the start (assuming that's what you're trying to say)? He could've done it while inside the water wall. My point was "Kakashi was able to prevent Itachi from seeing his hand seals on multiple occasions." I didn't say he did it by being fast, I just said he can always make clone feints through loss of LoS. He's done it against pretty much every character he's fought, Danzo being no exception.

3. That Jutsu Kakashi used doesn't require hand seals. We see Kabuto using hand seals for Raiton but shortly using a Doton in the bottom panel

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. DB doesn't give it seals as well.

3. That was not the real Itachi. Just a clone which was in proportion with the Chakra given to him.

I never said it requires hand seals.

Doesn't change anything, because he wouldn't be able to see hand seals without LoS anyways, which is what's happening against Danzo.

Assuming they can't but even so, he still has his MS to do so in his eyes. What made you think he was keeping up with 6G Gai? My guess is because they were shown moving on the same horizontal line? Nope. Multile occasions I can use to debunk this since Lee has been shown moving on the same line. If not then I wonder what brought that up? Because they fought Jins together? That's not a way to determine such.

Kakashi and Gai appear at the very same time to save Naruto [

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]. Kakashi and Gai run at the same speed according to this

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and then strike at the same time each given the bottom panels. They are portrayed as equals, there's absolutely no way of denying this. Here we see them being portrayed as equals again

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. Do you not notice the parallelism? Because it's clearly there.

Here we see Naruto getting wrecked by a v2 Jin [

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] yet Kakashi was doing just fine against them.

In my opinion it shouldn't make sense that Kakashi who according to the DB is slower than Base Gai and inferior to him in Taijutsu but can somehow keep up with him in these aspects in a much stronger mode. Assuming he can react, that's not strong enough to convince one that Danzo won't be able to keep up.

DB doesn't take into account Shunshin, DB is base speed. I wouldn't see any reason as to why anyone is as fast as Gai in base speed barring a very select few. With Shunshin Kakashi is faster then Base Gai, and comparable to 6G Gai based on the parallelism. Danzo won't keep up at all lmao, the only speed feat he has is dodging a half blind Sasuke, which isn't very impressive. Danzo touched Sasuke in exchange for losing an arm, but Danzo only touched him because Sasuke's speed was that of a jump

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the same jump which Darui reacted to with a jutsu effortlessly

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. Not a great speed feat imo.

Danzo could react to Sasuke as well

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,

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and Sasuke is around Kakashi's level. He kept up with him and could react despite not looking

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even while greatly weakened with a bad eye sight

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Lol. Look at Sasuke's eyes please. They are practically blind, Itachi with eye pain was seeing like this

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. Hell Sasuke's right eye was pretty much gone during that

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Actually, if you read the chapter again, Danzo outright states Sasuke's eye is useless now because he used it too much, right after he dodges his attack

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. So the context of that claim makes my argument right. Everything regarding Kakshi doesn't mean much since that Kakshi was 1. Not trying to kill Sasuke with a Chidori, 2. Not War Arc Kakashi, which is the one I'm arguing for.

Why won't it matter? That should mean Danzo can at least counter his Jutsu with his own superior nature. Danzo would be using his MS pre cognition since he has Shisui's eye. KA is the only thing restricted.

Kakashi can't outright blitz somone that could react and keep up with Sasuke...Someone Sasuke couldn't outright blitz when Sasuke himself could keep up with Kakashi when they fought. Chakra problems won't be an issue before Kakashi is dealt with.

Ok.

War Arc Kakshi can.

Kakashi isn't going to leave his clone alone to fight Danzo? Danzo's large scale Fuuton might one shot. If he wants, he can leave himself opened for an attack and then use Izanagi to finish the Kage Bunshin from his blind spot. Like this:

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Just that there'll be no one to warn the clone before it's killed. That's half of Kakashi's chakra gone. Mind you, is Kakashi going to be watching underwater where he won't see easily or rather can't breathe in? Plus Danzo would notice Kakashi here.

I've addressed Baku being able to finish him off.

What? Kakashi takes away LoS with a Suiton like the one he used on Zabuza (Great Waterfall) and then has his shadow clone replace himself while he goes underground, similarly to what happened against Itachi, except this time he's blocking LoS. The Shadow Clone approaches Danzo in CQC, and the clone will get marked since it's not trying to blitz Danzo, it's merely trying to gain intel. Kakashi releases the clone and gains all its intel, and then realises that the only time he's approaching Danzo in CQC is when he's going to blitz, or avoid contact at all costs (his Taijutsu skill would allow this tbh, given Danzo lacks any Taijutsu feats).

And no, it's not half of Kakshi's chakra gone unless the clone dies. But he won't die since he's getting hit by the cursed seal which merely immobilises. If a clone is released by the user it gives all the chakra back

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, just like when the Bunshin's were giving Naruto their chakra back after being released.

Now I see what you were trying to say. I didn't realise you forgot how this location was, sure it's mostly water, but there is ground too

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. Kakashi only needs to hide there while his Suiton sends Danzo back. It's not like the fight is limited to a 3 meter area. Baku gets recked by any Katon, Kakashi did not learn Katon just so that he doesn't obtain any Katon jutsu smh.

 

[Haizaki]

I mean wearing a Mask won't enable him use the Fireball Jutsu you're claiming he can. Never mind though...I don't think I can convince you at all. You really believe with Shunsin, Kakashi is comparable to 6G Gai in terms of speed based on the parallelism? Lee and Gai moving at the same speed

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[Apêx1]

I mean wearing a Mask won't enable him use the Fireball Jutsu you're claiming he can. Never mind though...I don't think I can convince you at all. You really believe with Shunsin, Kakashi is comparable to 6G Gai in terms of speed based on the parallelism? Lee and Gai moving at the same speed

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Ah I see what you mean now. Kakashi spits Water with his mask here [

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].
And yes, I do think he's comparable in movement speed. Lee and Gai are in mid-air though, how is that proving anything when they're falling at the same speed as the fodder around them due to gravity? Makes no sense. Not to mention I've given you like 3 or 4 cases of parallelism between them.

 

[Brooks]

Both is Yin release. Reality simulation and hypnosis. In fact all genjutsu falls under yin. Calling it retarded doesn't change it from happening. He simulated her environment then added sasuke. He did the same against Zabuza while adding another zabuza to further confuse him.

Key word: added...something which the reality simulation genjutsu doesn't do such as in case of Itachi verses Deidara...Itachi could have made Deidara believe his own clay was attacking him but that would be an obvious genjutsu to Deidara, instead Itachi made him believe things were normal and he was in control(which is the something Sasuke did) without realizing he was the one about to kill himself with his own clay until the end.

Again, you keep on shooting yourself in the knee...the fact he confused(which what Genjutsu does in general) Zabuza into adding another one debunks this being reality simulation as Kakashi made his opponent aware this wasn't possible.​

No danzo wasn't aware. He fell for the genjutsu then realized his error. It's not like when kakashi's clone fought itachi's clone and Kakashi was completely unaffected. The scan you posted shows it clear as day.

No, the scan I posted only shows the shock on Danzo's face on the sight of a dead man but the Cruse seal kicked in to stop Sasuke from stabbing him....the cruse seal(Danzo can control it) only proofs Danzo was aware of the Genjutsu.​

It does take some time, seeing as itachi had to set up a distraction for him to prep it against kabuto.

Kabuto dodged the arrow itself...so, bringing him into this dissuasion is pointless.​

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Key word: added...something which the reality simulation genjutsu doesn't do such as in case of Itachi verses Deidara...Itachi could have made Deidara believe his own clay was attacking him but that would be an obvious genjutsu to Deidara, instead Itachi made him believe things were normal and he was in control(which is the something Sasuke did) without realizing he was the one about to kill himself with his own clay until the end.

Again, you keep on shooting yourself in the knee...the fact he confused(which what Genjutsu does in general) Zabuza into adding another one debunks this being reality simulation as Kakashi made his opponent aware this wasn't possible.​

No, the scan I posted only shows the shock on Danzo's face on the sight of a dead man but the Cruse seal kicked in to stop Sasuke from stabbing him....the cruse seal(Danzo can control it) only proofs Danzo was aware of the Genjutsu.​

Kabuto dodged the arrow itself...so, bringing him into this dissuasion is pointless.​

Actually it does do that. Sasuke added an eye to Danzo's arm to make him believe he still had izanagi, when he didn't. Itachi added a clay bomb to himself to make deidara believe he had defeated him. You're trying to make a distinction that's not there and has never been referenced by the manga, and your examples to prove this nonexistent distinction have been plowed through like a porno.

I can post a scan of danzo himself admitting to fall for it. I won't cuz I'm on my phone but I have a feeling both you and I know it exists.



Kabuto sensed him prepping. Loading the arrow into the crossbow then aiming and shooting. It takes a while, compared to somthing like say "swinging a sword" as you brought up.

 

[Haizaki]

Ah I see what you mean now. Kakashi spits Water with his mask here [

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].
And yes, I do think he's comparable in movement speed. Lee and Gai are in mid-air though, how is that proving anything when they're falling at the same speed as the fodder around them due to gravity? Makes no sense. Not to mention I've given you like 3 or 4 cases of parallelism between them.

- Nice point but still doesn't mean he's able to do it or even use the technique. Plus there's no stronghold for him so I wonder how he'll even accomplish that before he's swallowed without intel. Sasuke took sometime to think about a counter with no intel and that's because he had Susanoo holding the pillar or so for him. Not that this maters since there's no reason for me to believe Kakashi's can use that fire style Jutsu you're claiming

- Lee was using Hidden Lotus at top speed in mid air. Not sure why Mid air should be the case? 2 people moving in the same line doesn't mean they are equal in speed and that scan shows you so.

1.

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Are we going to say Gaara's sand is as fast as KCM Naruto?
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Many more that I can't be bothered to get more atm.

Sasuke said Base Gai was above Kakashi in speed(Shunshin included). DB kept Gai above him and even if Kakashi improved, Gai also did and there's no way Shunshin is going to boost Kakashi's speed to 6G Gai's level.

Btw the 3 cases contradict each other...You show Kakashi and 5th Gate Gai both saving Naruto at the same time to prove your point. Then you show Kakashi and 6 Gate Gai to prove your point. How does that work since that would naturally mean 5G=6G?..Plus I just saw you're trying to suggest they have similar striking speed? Not close at all. 6G Gai blitz Kisame with no reaction at all and can create flames from punches alone..Kakashi can't do that.

 

[Apêx1]

- Nice point but still doesn't mean he's able to do it or even use the technique. Plus there's no stronghold for him so I wonder how he'll even accomplish that before he's swallowed without intel. Sasuke took sometime to think about a counter with no intel and that's because he had Susanoo holding the pillar or so for him. Not that this maters since there's no reason for me to believe Kakashi's can use that fire style Jutsu you're claiming

Baku doesn't instantly begin sucking everything here, he's summoned, he stands and then he starts his suction. Kakashi can either 1. Put him in Genjutsu at that second. 2. Run to the ground, and while running, create a Kage Bunshin which will replace Kakashi, while the real Kakashi uses Hiding like a Mole. And yes, it is possible since if you read the chapter vs Sasuke you will realise Danzo was behind Baku, and ran all the way behind Sasuke without getting sucked in.

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And lol, appealing to ignorance, we both know Kakashi can do it if Madara can copy any jutsu he's seen, but you're too proud to concede on something which isn't a scan so whatever.

- Lee was using Hidden Lotus at top speed in mid air. Not sure why Mid air should be the case? 2 people moving in the same line doesn't mean they are equal in speed and that scan shows you so.

Wrong. They are falling down after having jumped up. That's called gravity, stop trying to use your own flawed logic as proof of a completely different point.

1.

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Are we going to say Gaara's sand is as fast as KCM Naruto?
2.

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Sasuke is as fast as Naruto in running speed too. Shunshin wise he's not keeping up though, which is the only thing that makes Naruto fast. Not sure why you are using Naruto's Shunshin speed as an example of his running speed.

Many more that I can't be bothered to get more atm.

You'll need at least 1 example of people running at the very same horizontal distance which is viable. Because right now it's all your flawed logic making you think it shouldn't be the case.

Sasuke said Base Gai was above Kakashi in speed(Shunshin included). DB kept Gai above him and even if Kakashi improved, Gai also did and there's no way Shunshin is going to boost Kakashi's speed to 6G Gai's level.

1. Sasuke was a Genin who couldn't perceive his speed, not sure how he'd gauge their speed when he can't see neither at top speed.
2. Has he even seen Kakashi's Shunshin? Kakashi didn't use Shunshin against Zabuza due to the Mist making Shunshin futile.
3. Pretty much every Jounin can blitz behind a Genin without the Genin having sight of them, and I'm also not denying that part 1 Gai is faster then Part 1 Kakashi. The power-ups that Kakashi received after that is still his own power-ups, not Gai's. Kakashi=Gai.

Btw the 3 cases contradict each other...You show Kakashi and 5th Gate Gai both saving Naruto at the same time to prove your point. Then you show Kakashi and 6 Gate Gai to prove your point. How does that work since that would naturally mean 5G=6G?..Plus I just saw you're trying to suggest they have similar striking speed? Not close at all. 6G Gai blitz Kisame with no reaction at all and can create flames from punches alone..Kakashi can't do that.

Yes, I know the scans are contradicting. Doesn't mean anything because the scans show what the scans show. 6G>5G but Kakashi is keeping up with Gai in them all, and that's that. Doesn't matter how you look at it, there's clear portrayal of Kakashi keeping up with 6G Gai on a few occasions. @bold, nice straw man bro. I'd like you to quote me saying that because I did not mention something that retarded once. Not sure why you even tried that smh, Kakashi's Raikiri is only as fast as Kakashi's movement speed, Gai's striking speed in general>>>Kakashi's. That was 30% Kisame fam.

 

[Geeserock]

Kakashi is just too smart for Danzo. Kakashi saved himself and others from fallen inside Kaguya's dimension only using kunai. Kakashi's intelligence alone is the deterministic factor in this fight. Where Danzo just wasted all his sharingan like stupid as hell.