Ghost in the Shell
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My previous thread got closed, courtesy of the two assclowns that started bashing heads. Thanks, guys. I had to requote Zhoom's post and find all of my scans again, you imbecils.
Anyway Zhoom is a solid poster, was Itachi's only legitimate defense in that thread, and has made some decent points. I don't mind continuing my debate with him here.
Here is a link to the previous thread:
Have fun reading [most of the] Itachi fans making themselves look like morons (as well as shelke getting rekt by SkyFall25 and dat guy EliteKakashi).
Unfortunately Zhoom, I did not have the patience to link your scans, barely had enough to find and link mine. So if anybody wants to take a look, go to the previous thread.
Please, if we're going to throw jabs around, lets not get too riled up. I'm not going to make another thread on this topic.
About your second point, the manga makes it pretty clear that the fire was detained since it stopped advancing. I'll link the scans again for convenience.
What Kakashi says is contradicting, and I could speculate that in the Viz translation he says that the katon/fuuton evaporated the water like he said in the anime, but I'll stick to what happened in the manga.
1. I already proved that Kakashi's suiton wall was comparable in size to the wind fire combo stream
2. Again, Kakashi needed X amount of water to counter Y amount of Kakuzu's collaboration technique as we already saw in this scan. Logically Kakashi should be able to counter more Y with more X.
Bolded: I never said anything about any mask.
> If Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's water wall matched the overall output of water that Edo Itachi used in his water dragon, then War Arc Kakashi's suiton wall would produce more water than Edo Itachi's water dragon. Remember that water dragons are generally supposed assimilate more water than water walls. Also note that this was Edo Itachi's water dragon, no reason to think that the alive Itachi we saw in canon would pull that off with vastly inferior chakra reserves to both his Edo counterpart and Kakashi.
>You did not consider that if Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's suiton wall produced as much water as Edo Itachi's water dragon, then Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's water dragon should be larger and produce more water than Edo Itachi's water dragons. You also forgot that Kakashi also has Daibakufu no Jutsu, which assimilates even more water than water dragons.
Alive Itachi's Water Dragon=< WA Kakashi's Water Wall < WA Kakashi's Water Dragon << WA Kakashi's Waterfall Technique
And frankly, I'm giving Itachi the benefit of the doubt here because as we saw with Alive and Edo Hiruzen, elemental streams and jutsus become bigger as you gain access to more chakra. No reason to think the Itachi we saw alive could produce as much water as his Edo version did, but again I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because it doesn't change my point either way.
So in conclusion:
War Arc Kakashi can create water copies of himself,
Kakashi > Itachi in suiton.
You already said that Raiton Kage Bunshins are better than Daibakuha Bunshins so I'm not going to waste my breath on that.
Karasu Bunshins conceivably provide a better distraction but ****all of Kakashi's clones provide good distractions anyway****. Karasu Bunshins do a better job of blocking LoS, and that's it, and that isn't nearly enough to say that Itachi's clones are better. At the end of the day, Kakashi's clones have already provided a good distraction for him even without blocking line of sight as well as Karasu Bunshins.
Frankly speaking, I have no clue where you're getting this notion that Itachi can use multiple clones or that Itachi's clones are better, which is something that should be determined by a person's chakra level and skill.
War Arc Kakashi takes a dump on Itachi in terms of stamina and chakra reserves no ifs, ands, or buts about that. If anything Kakashi's clones are better because his kage bunshins and raiton kage bunshins can use more techniques than Itachi's kage bunshins and daibakuha bunshins. Kakashi's mizu bunshins can use more techniques than Itachi's karasu bunshins despite mizu bunshins taking 1/10th of the original's chakra b/c again, Kakashi has way higher reserves than Itachi. Both are C-Rank techniques as well by the way. Furthermore, obviously karasu bunshins don't have as much chakra as kage bunshins like some Itachi fans think, so they can't use as many techniques.
Usage of clones also matters in determining who has better clones so clearly Kakashi beats Itachi in that area as well. I don't care that Itachi is so fast he can create a clone and fight at the same time because Kakashi has already feinted his ass twice and saw through bunshin daibakuha.
Lastly, Itachi has average to below average reserves quite frankly, so using "multiple clones" isn't going to be an option for him, and I have no clue how Itachi is making these clones before Kakashi either since Kakashi placed his clone feints on Itachi faster than Itachi could do anything about it to counter, yet Itachi's hand seal jutsu speed when creating clones is wanked to the maximum even though Kakashi has countered and can counter with his quick bunshin feints. Funny that, eh?
Your second point is somewhat true, yet a tad flawed at the same time, but this is where clones and blocking line of sight come into play. Itachi's katon provided a good distraction for Kakashi to go undeground so that is why he utilized hiding like a mole in that circumstance. In a 1v1, he can use his own means of blocking LoS by using a doton wall or a suiton dragon while also having the option to take advantage of Itachi's elemental techniques to give him time to set up his clones and have them go underground. Itachi isn't going to be looking at the ground whilst having to fight someone above ground. And Chiyo/Sakura/Naruto were there but clearly they were far below Kakashi and Itachi in skill level, and Itachi's katon basically blocked them off of his LoS as well.
u_u
And to prove my case again, I'll quote narutowiki.
CQC.
Or does Itachi solo idle sound waves with his sharingan genjutsu to convert it to sound genjutsu? Haaaaaaaaaaaa..............
Right...
I already said that I know Itachi is faster, just not on a whole other level to what some think. Also, we do have feats to base it on, like his feat against Obito along with Gated Gai, and of course the scan EK posted and broke down for us.
Well if he aimed for Kurenai he could have just killed her very easily but he chose to shunshin (or create a clone? I forget) behind Kakashi and stab him without knowing it was a water clone until it happened.
Tendō was in the midst of a cooldown and Shuradō was shocked by a raiton kage bunshin whilst Tendō had no clue where the real Kakashi was. When Kakashi came out in the second scan he had the Raikiri ready and said he had another plan. It's likely that Tendō would have gotten blitzed from above ground or underground, or paralyzed by Lightning Wolf.
He also created and set up this strategy right after
...but Tendō got saved by an
Also, please do not compare that one feat to Kakashi's multiple of feats against much stronger and much trickier opponents than Kakuzu. It's not just hype. He's proved it over and over again.
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Wrong about the earth style wall as I already showed you.
Sure, maybe if Itachi looks down before Kakashi or a clone reaches hime which he didn't think to do in canon until the last second. Even then, he only noticed the bunshin, and only found out it was a bunshin after said bunshin let himself get caught in genjutsu to give Naruto an opening to nail him with Oodama Rasengan.
Second, Itachi has never, never in canon figured out a clone feint from Kakashi in the heat of battle until it was too late, and his reserves suck as well, so how Itachi will be able to counter the amount of clones Kakashi can make is beyond me.
Third, just because Kakashi hasn't shown to be able to do it doesn't mean that he can't do it. That is a task that most skilled shinobi can do. Your argument is tantamount to Zexion's argument "Jman has only shown to make 1 clone so he can't make more than 1 clone lml" (sorry Zex, but that was a bad argument). Just so you know I'm not talking about Ranton (Water/Lightning KKG), Kakashi can use a water tech then infuse it with his own lightning chakra via Raikiri Wolf or Raikiri like he's able to infuse weapons with the raikiri.
Spamming raikiri weapons is literally nothing to him when he used Kamui 5 times and cut his chakra in half by using one bunshin, and Kamui takes a shit ton of chakra. Take a look at his stamina chart again (courtesy of EliteKakashi).
Anyway Zhoom is a solid poster, was Itachi's only legitimate defense in that thread, and has made some decent points. I don't mind continuing my debate with him here.
Here is a link to the previous thread:
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Have fun reading [most of the] Itachi fans making themselves look like morons (as well as shelke getting rekt by SkyFall25 and dat guy EliteKakashi).
Unfortunately Zhoom, I did not have the patience to link your scans, barely had enough to find and link mine. So if anybody wants to take a look, go to the previous thread.
Please, if we're going to throw jabs around, lets not get too riled up. I'm not going to make another thread on this topic.
I was really motivated to counter your post last night but I was too tired at the same time.
Did you mean that Kakuzu can stop streaming the attacks? Ah, I see. I was confused for a second. Well anyway, I hope you know that Kakashi would have just kept streaming water to counter if Kakuzu kept streaming fire/wind.
About your second point, the manga makes it pretty clear that the fire was detained since it stopped advancing. I'll link the scans again for convenience.
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--- very clear that the flames ceased to advance.What Kakashi says is contradicting, and I could speculate that in the Viz translation he says that the katon/fuuton evaporated the water like he said in the anime, but I'll stick to what happened in the manga.
Your bolded point is a little confusing, but again the reat is just your assumption. If Kakashi streamed X amount of water to counter Kakuzu's Y amount of wind/fire stream as he already did in the scans, then I have no reason to think why Kakashi would get overpowered by the combo if Kakuzu kept streaming because Kakashi could have just streamed more water to counter using the same jutsu since:
1. I already proved that Kakashi's suiton wall was comparable in size to the wind fire combo stream
2. Again, Kakashi needed X amount of water to counter Y amount of Kakuzu's collaboration technique as we already saw in this scan. Logically Kakashi should be able to counter more Y with more X.
Well obviously Kakuzu stopped streaming fire and wind with the masks. But like I said, you're omitting the fact that Kakashi would have just counter by streaming more water. He did stop the attack "properly" once already, there's literally no reason to think why he can't counter more fire/wind with more water. Furthermore there is no "proper" attack, Kakuzu's attacks can either be streams or bursts like the bursts he used in the manga. Bursts counter bursts. Streams counter streams.
Bolded: I never said anything about any mask.
Again, you're also omitting the fact that Kakuzu's katon/fuuton combo is a better technique than Itachi's katon in scale and power since the wind enhanced the fire. If Kakashi's water wall detained fire/wind, then it will overpower fire alone which is weaker and relatively smaller in size. Simple, not hard to grasp.
That isn't true at all, because a lot of ninja have shown to get better at their techniques as his/her skill level or chakra level rises. For example, Edo Hiruzen was able to pull off those giant elemental streams because he gained more chakra as an Edo, and because he had the skill to do so originally when he was alive. We've seen Temari's wind jutsu increase in scale and strength as her skill and chakra levels increased. If you even want examples regarding Kakashi,
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his suiton wall is in Part 1 when he was out of shape compared to his suiton wall in Part 2 where he got back into fighting shape. Look at how thicker his doton wall is in
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during the war compared to
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before the war. Clearly all of his elemental jutsu improved in scale due to his improved chakra reserves and probably skill as well since we also saw him introduce Lightning Chain during the war. Your point about Kamui is incorrect as well. Kakashi went from barely being able to snipe Deidara's arm off after attempting it 3 times to warping away Sasuke's susano'o arrow to warping KCM Naruto's clone to nearly warping away the freaking Gedō Mazō's head all with with his own chakra. No Kurama influence needed, and EK posted that picture about his stamina feats in the war arc already, and that doesn't even include the fact that he fought non stop for 2 days which drains physical energy and chakra, and maintained the sharingan for nearly the whole time which drains more chakra for a non Uchiha as we have seen with Part 1 Kakashi.Since literally no amount of Kakuzu's fire got past Kakashi's water wall, and the fact that I already pointed out the sizing, I'm inclined to believe that the two techniques were practically or at least nearly the same size. That's why I told you to pay close attention to the evaporated water in between the techniques; Kakashi produced more water than what was shown. If the suiton was smaller in width, fire would have came through the sides of the water wall. Again, it only looked like a certain amount of water was produced because a lot of it evaporated. Itachi filled a small section of that cave which is much larger overall, not very impressive. Now consider this:
> If Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's water wall matched the overall output of water that Edo Itachi used in his water dragon, then War Arc Kakashi's suiton wall would produce more water than Edo Itachi's water dragon. Remember that water dragons are generally supposed assimilate more water than water walls. Also note that this was Edo Itachi's water dragon, no reason to think that the alive Itachi we saw in canon would pull that off with vastly inferior chakra reserves to both his Edo counterpart and Kakashi.
>You did not consider that if Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's suiton wall produced as much water as Edo Itachi's water dragon, then Kakuzu Arc Kakashi's water dragon should be larger and produce more water than Edo Itachi's water dragons. You also forgot that Kakashi also has Daibakufu no Jutsu, which assimilates even more water than water dragons.
Alive Itachi's Water Dragon=< WA Kakashi's Water Wall < WA Kakashi's Water Dragon << WA Kakashi's Waterfall Technique
And frankly, I'm giving Itachi the benefit of the doubt here because as we saw with Alive and Edo Hiruzen, elemental streams and jutsus become bigger as you gain access to more chakra. No reason to think the Itachi we saw alive could produce as much water as his Edo version did, but again I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because it doesn't change my point either way.
So in conclusion:
War Arc Kakashi can create water copies of himself,
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, and create water walls, water dragons, and
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. The latter three techniques would all surpass what Itachi can put out in terms of scale and strength. After his water dragon, all Itachi has is some measly Water Fang. This is not Kakashi being slightly better. This is Kakashi being comfortably above Itachi due to him being able to spit out more water with his suiton wall than Itachi can with his suiton dragon, let alone Kakashi's own water dragon and large waterfall. He's also more versatile due to having a more varied movepool as I already showed you all of his techniques and what he can do.Kakashi > Itachi in suiton.
Sorry dude but I can't believe someone like you is making such a claim. If we go by your logic, I can say that Sasuke isn't a raiton master, and neither are the Raikages because they've all only shown a couple of ***practical*** raiton techniques (Kirin is NOT a practical raiton technique). Kakashi mastered both nature manipulation and shape manipulation with raiton, developed the Chidori (A rank tech) at age 13 and developed the Raikiri (S rank tech) later. He has shown the ability to apply his nature transformation to shinobi weapons and the shadow clone. He has shown the ability to apply shape manipulation with the Raikiri which makes two variants in Lightning Chain and Lightning Wolf, not two. This is no different than the training Naruto went through to become a fuuton master when he developed Fuuton: Rasengan and Rasenshuriken as he was able to master shape AND nature manipulation which Kakashi has already done with raiton (even if he failed to apply his nature to the rasengan, but again this is something that only Naruto has been able to achieve). How in the living hell is Kakashi not a master of raiton if he practically developed all of his lightning techniques by himself!? C'mon, dude.
No, and you're contradicting yourself here with doton. Kakashi is a raiton master. Kakashi is a highly adept suiton user. Kakashi is an above average doton user. Meanwhile all of Itachi's techs are either weaker or smaller in scale and he hasn't become a highly adept user in either suiton or katon whilst Kakashi has already done that for raiton and suiton, and also has above average doton as well. Now if we include the rest of Kakashi's ninjutsu which include the Rasengan and Chidori that Itachi has no comparable technique to match in killing potential and power let alone even the Raikiri, and the versatility of his techniques, clearly Kakashi is >> Itachi in ninjutsu. All Itachi has are some small katons and suitons. Kakashi has more techniques, techniques on larger scales, techniques with higher killing potential, and more versatile techniques.
Again, what does Itachi have? Kage Bunshins, Karasu Bunshins, and Daibakuha Bunshins.
You already said that Raiton Kage Bunshins are better than Daibakuha Bunshins so I'm not going to waste my breath on that.
Karasu Bunshins conceivably provide a better distraction but ****all of Kakashi's clones provide good distractions anyway****. Karasu Bunshins do a better job of blocking LoS, and that's it, and that isn't nearly enough to say that Itachi's clones are better. At the end of the day, Kakashi's clones have already provided a good distraction for him even without blocking line of sight as well as Karasu Bunshins.
Frankly speaking, I have no clue where you're getting this notion that Itachi can use multiple clones or that Itachi's clones are better, which is something that should be determined by a person's chakra level and skill.
War Arc Kakashi takes a dump on Itachi in terms of stamina and chakra reserves no ifs, ands, or buts about that. If anything Kakashi's clones are better because his kage bunshins and raiton kage bunshins can use more techniques than Itachi's kage bunshins and daibakuha bunshins. Kakashi's mizu bunshins can use more techniques than Itachi's karasu bunshins despite mizu bunshins taking 1/10th of the original's chakra b/c again, Kakashi has way higher reserves than Itachi. Both are C-Rank techniques as well by the way. Furthermore, obviously karasu bunshins don't have as much chakra as kage bunshins like some Itachi fans think, so they can't use as many techniques.
Usage of clones also matters in determining who has better clones so clearly Kakashi beats Itachi in that area as well. I don't care that Itachi is so fast he can create a clone and fight at the same time because Kakashi has already feinted his ass twice and saw through bunshin daibakuha.
Lastly, Itachi has average to below average reserves quite frankly, so using "multiple clones" isn't going to be an option for him, and I have no clue how Itachi is making these clones before Kakashi either since Kakashi placed his clone feints on Itachi faster than Itachi could do anything about it to counter, yet Itachi's hand seal jutsu speed when creating clones is wanked to the maximum even though Kakashi has countered and can counter with his quick bunshin feints. Funny that, eh?
Well, I'll save you the trouble of actual burden of proof (you called me out for burden of proof further down your post but it doesn't work that way, and I'll outine it to you) and post this excerpt from naruto wiki
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No reason why Kakashi's thick doton wall would get destroyed by Itachi's katon which isn't anything special anyway.
Your second point is somewhat true, yet a tad flawed at the same time, but this is where clones and blocking line of sight come into play. Itachi's katon provided a good distraction for Kakashi to go undeground so that is why he utilized hiding like a mole in that circumstance. In a 1v1, he can use his own means of blocking LoS by using a doton wall or a suiton dragon while also having the option to take advantage of Itachi's elemental techniques to give him time to set up his clones and have them go underground. Itachi isn't going to be looking at the ground whilst having to fight someone above ground. And Chiyo/Sakura/Naruto were there but clearly they were far below Kakashi and Itachi in skill level, and Itachi's katon basically blocked them off of his LoS as well.
Already proved you wrong twice, and you make disengenuous claims in regards to Kakashi's skill in raiton and doton, and also his suiton if you think Itachi is nearly just as skilled which he isn't by any means. Lets try to be a bit more objective here.
Doesn't really matter if Kakashi doesn't use Chidori or Rasengan because, and amusingly enough, all of Itachi's ninjutsu pales in comparison in terms of power and damage potential against those two techs that Kakashi doesn't even use because he has better techniques Lel. No katon is killing someone like Rasengan or Chidori would, let alone Kakashi's other raiton skills...
u_u
So Hebi Sasuke carrying a sword means that he's a kenjutsu master on Kakashi and Itachi's level, let alone far above Zabuza's level, smh. You want to bring up feats? What are Hebi Sasuke's feats in using that sword for? Chidori Sharp Spear? That's ninjutsu, not kenjutsu. Chidori katana? That makes Sasuke's sword more potent, doesn't increase his skill in kenjutsu. Shuriken? Ok, sure, but that isn't an actual sword clash which is what I'm refering to. What special thing has Hebi Sasuke done that outmatches anything that Zabuza or Hidan have done in terms of a kenjutsu battle between blades? Also, those featless swordsmen were considered the best generation of the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist, all kenjutsu masters whether they have feats or not as their title and reputation imply. Clearly being a kenjutsu master doesn't mean there won't be someone more skilled around, but mastering kenjutsu still means meeting a specific standard or set of criteria which everyone of those swordsmen have accomplished, otherwise Fuguki Suizakan wouldn't have been able to wield the Samehada, nor would Ameyuri Ringo have been capable of controlling the Kiba.
Kenjutsu literally means the art of weaponry. Ninja tools are weapons like shuriken and kunai, and Kakashi has more feats and better feats of using kunais in blade clashes which is more practical and applicable to battles whilst I guess Itachi has better feats of throwing projectiles. Evens out I suppose. Anyways bending kunai and shuriken around targets is less impressive than stalemating highly advanced weapons like the Kubikiribōchō and a large three bladed scythe with just one kunai, a vastly inferior weapon. If we want to talk about real swords as well, I've already showed you Kakashi's skill with the Kubikiri and tantō.
He doesn't have to. And using Hiding Like a Mole to dodge wouldn't prove your point either because doing that is easier than spamming and throwing a bunch of shuriken since Hiding Like a Mole takes very little chakra and doesn't require hand seals.
Their altercation in canon says otherwise, and I'll explain to you why you're wrong about Itachi in that instance further below. Anyways Itachi had more time to build up his chakra and activate Susano'o before Kirin was launched so lets not overrate that feat either. I'll show you more of Kakashi's reaction feats [
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]-[
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] one of which included being faster than Obito himself with Kamui. So yeah, by feats, I will acknowledge Itachi has better reaction time. Is the gap between them as large as you say? No, because Kakashi has his own solid and impressive reaction feats to put himself up there, whilst Itachi reacting to Kirin is a bit overrated since again, he had time to look at Kirin before it was fired off, mould chakra to prepare Susano'o, and time Kirin's launch relative to when he manifested Susano'o. It makes no senses for Itachi to just sit there like an idiot with his mouth wide open and not do anything about the attack until the last second when he already knew that he could protect himself from it. It also goes against his character as well.This doesn't make sense and even Itachi disagrees with you because Itachi knows that another 3T user wouldn't get caught in genjutsu so easily [
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]... Yet Itachi was fooled by that clone anyway. As we've seen in the manga, sharingan users will size each other up with genjutsu even if they can see through it as seen with Kakashi vs. Obito and Sasuke vs. Itachi.That is wrong, because Pain's technique gives them a fixed amount of chakra to work with, it doesn't decrease their physical stats. Kisame still had the same superhuman strength that he's always had as shown against Might Gai despite being at 30%. There was nothing different in Itachi's case; his physical paramaters and skill level were still the same, he just had a fixed amount of chakra. Strength in that context referred to their overall power; Itachi wasn't able to use the MS, and Kisame wasn't able to use the WD or Daikōdan no Jutsu, meaning that they weren't at full strength or power.
And to prove my case again, I'll quote narutowiki.
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Power meaning the amount of chakra they had to use techniques. Everything else is mimmicked, including physical stats as we already saw with Kisame with his strength and Itachi as well with his taijutsu skill.
Oh lawdy lawdy, I guess Omoi and Karui are better than Kakashi in CQC, let alone even at half his skill level. How does that even compare to what Kakashi did against the v2 jins and Itachi? Do I need to point out that Kakashi has a 4.5 out of 5 in taijutsu (same score as Itachi) and 3T precog? C'mon dude. Base Naruto isn't on Kakashi's level in CQC, and neither are any of other chuunin level ninja that were there. This is a laughable comparison in this context, no offense.
There is a distinction between movement speed and one's striking speed and overall speed in CQC, because there is obviously less room to maneuver. Again, I'm just going to bring up Kakashi's feat against the v2 Jins who also gain increased speed and physical parameters, not to mention corrosive chakra cloaks and chakra arms, and they certainly all had the intent to kill.
At what point, exactly, was Kakashi trying to kill him or outmatch him? That situation is basically the same as KCM Naruto vs. Itachi where all Naruto wanted to do was talk. Kakashi was trying to reason with Sasuke.
Yeah, and compare the context and circumstance. Itachi's intent was to put Sasuke in a corner whilst trying to draw out Orochimaru. Kakashi didn't go in that altercation against Sasuke with any type of serious fightning intent, which is important in the manga yet something most readers miss.
Listen, Sasuke got shat on in CQC because he foolishly tried to engage Bee's sword dance like I already said. Itachi was smart to get the **** out of the way and dodge, and Kakashi would do the same thing because he isn't reckless. And if you're implying that Kakashi doesn't have the speed nor the reactions to evade that swords dance after all of the feats that have been provided in this thread, then it looks like your argument fails here.
So what? I hope you know that 6th Gate Gai was blown back too. Does that mean that he's worse than Itachi in CQC? Obviously facing controlled v2 jins with killing intent CQC is more dangerous than facing somebody that didn't have the intent to outmatch nor kill, just defend.
Because you think movement speed matters more than body and striking speed at short range, and you're making it seem like Kakashi can't touch Itachi in CQC for being able to react to Kirin which is an overrated feat, and I already explained why. That's also different from engaging and fighting someone at close range and like I keep having to point out to you again and again, they stalemated in hand to hand combat in canon. 30% Itachi was only at a disadvantage in regards to his chakra levels, not his physical stats, so that argument is rendered null.
How is footspeed a big factor, how is he going to be running while engaged in CQC? Faster kicks? That's striking speed, different from movement speed. You haven't proved anything about Itachi being better in hand to hand when the manga and databook scores say differently. Let's also not forget that Kakashi can open the first gate as well to maximize his physical paramaters to up his striking speed or with raiton streaming that Itachi doesn't have an answer to, Kakashi would beat Itachi as opposed to just stalemating him
CQC.
No difference between 30% Itachi and the real Itachi in physical paramaters excluding chakra levels. You're trying to put that KCM Naruto feat above Kakashi's taijutsu feats which it does not and I've explained why several times now. That Bee feat was no feat, Bee already knew he was there, so nothing to show off and if anything that's a good reaction feat for Bee.
What if I did? Kakuzu and Hidan have higher scores in taijutsu and strength than Hebi Sasuke. You tried claiming that base Naruto feat against Omoi and Karui was better than any of Kakashi's feat. That was rather amusing but lets be serious. Kakashi's best CQC feats came against Itachi who he stalemated against, against the v2 jins against whom he held his own (as well he could have in that situation and lets not forget that Gai was alongside him and they both got blown back after initially tussling with them), and against 3T Obito who he beat in hand to hand CQC [
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]-[
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], and no Kakashi didn't have to ket himself get pierced at the end there before you say anything about that. Furthermore, Hidan may be the weakest Akatsuki, but that doesn't mean he's weak in CQC in kenjutsu, so don't underestimate him and mind you Kakashi stalemated him with an inferior weapon while being tired and injured like I've already said. Furthermore the manga and the databook have both shown with their draw and same score in taijutsu, that they are equals in said department. You're trying to list all of these Itachi movement and reaction speed feats, yet look at what happened in the damn manga, and I've already told you why you're wrong in regards to the 30% Itachi point. You can't seriously keep asserting that Itachi is better in CQC and hand to hand somehow when mot only their altercation, but their feats match them up as equals as well.Reread the thread title, this is restricted to 3T vs. 3T. Have no clue what you're referring to in regards to the MS but that's irrelevant here anyway. Why the **** is Uchiha blood so important here when Kakashi already saw through a full blooded Uchiha's 3T genjutsu?! Itachi only started talking about Uchiha blood in regards to Tsukuyomi, a MS technique, and Itachi was actually wrong about all that Uchiha blood wank, and I'll explain why in my next thread. What genjutsu does Itachi have that doesn't control ocular perception? None, right? So why the hell does that matter? Honestly...
Or does Itachi solo idle sound waves with his sharingan genjutsu to convert it to sound genjutsu? Haaaaaaaaaaaa..............
Here is the burden of proof thing. You see, you just made a rather unfounded claim regarding that Ephemeral will work on Kakashi without saying why, yet now you're telling me why it won't work when it has been established all throughout the manga and databook that the sharingan will see through illusions that aren't MS illusions or sound based genjutsu. So if anything, burden of proof was on you to tell me why those genjutsu techs would work. Honestly, this should be common knowledge, which is why I didn't even bother to state that, but I guess I have to waste time responding to these claims nonetheless. I'll say this again, no genjutsu Itachi has is sound based, and all of his genjutsu primarily affect visual perception which the sharingan sees through, and that was my point. Maybe you misinterpreted, maybe I didn't phrase it properly, but you should know damn well that the sharingan will see through Ephemeral and Dusk Crow Genjutsu. If it didn't why did the databook make all these claims about the sharingan being immune to visual genjutsu? Why did Itachi battle Sasuke with 3T genjutsu rather than Ephemeral or Dusk Crow Genjutsu? What, they both have hand seals? What about Sasuke aeeing through Shee's hand seal visual genjutsu? Eh?????????
Right...
Well EK went more in depth yet again so just go read his post, I don't feel like repeating what he's already said. And the point of his post was to compare Kakashi's shunshin with 6th Gate Gai's striking speed which is very fast, fast enough to freaking create flames out of the pure friction of the speed of his punches so yeah, damn fast.
I already said that I know Itachi is faster, just not on a whole other level to what some think. Also, we do have feats to base it on, like his feat against Obito along with Gated Gai, and of course the scan EK posted and broke down for us.
By feats, Kakashi ia faster than Base Bee whose best feat came against Sasuke when he shunshined really far away from Sasuke, but that's surpassed by Kakashi's shunshin to save Naruto before Obito could take the kyuubi's chakra/warp him from far away, and made it there not far behind Hachimon Gai, who is way faster than Base Bee. How did Itachi not use shunshin there? That looks like regular shunshin.
Again, Bee never outsped Sasuke, he just nailed him with swords dance. Sasuke not landing any significant hits on him meant that Bee took a shit on them in CQC, has better reactions, and tanked all of their attacks, and nobody on Taka is close to Sasuke in speed and reactions.
That means Bee had good enough reactions to react to v1 Ay but that doesn't equate to having a shunshin just as fast as Raiton Armour Mode Ay, which he most likely does not. MS Sasuke reacted to v1 Ay's footspeed, but that does not make Sasuke faster.
Right, they were off panel which means they covered a great amount of distance. The fact that Gai was in the Hachimon Tonkou and got there before Kakashi judging by their movements and relative position kind of proves my point. The jins being in BM or not doesn't change my point, they were still all in v2 anyway.
Ok, you agreed.
Well if he aimed for Kurenai he could have just killed her very easily but he chose to shunshin (or create a clone? I forget) behind Kakashi and stab him without knowing it was a water clone until it happened.
I think they're on par since the Rinnegan is the best dojutsu and Kakashi was in Pain's line of sight but he occulted himself successfully. Itachi occulted himself against some body with such great sage perception that he casually dodged a susano'o arrow.
Look at these two scans
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Tendō was in the midst of a cooldown and Shuradō was shocked by a raiton kage bunshin whilst Tendō had no clue where the real Kakashi was. When Kakashi came out in the second scan he had the Raikiri ready and said he had another plan. It's likely that Tendō would have gotten blitzed from above ground or underground, or paralyzed by Lightning Wolf.
He also created and set up this strategy right after
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...but Tendō got saved by an
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.Ok, and Kakashi created his strategies against Pain (twice) and Itachi (twice) right on the spot. You're right about that point on Obito, but does that really make that feat any less impressive? Especially before what Itachi has done? Itachi has shown accute observational skills; that is to be expected from someone like him. The fact of the matter is that Kakashi matches him at the least in observational skills, and is a better tactician, strategist, and a better analyzer since Kakashi completely deduced Itachi's Tsukuyomi and fighting styler after just facing him once while Itachi wasn't able to do the same, and if he did, then it definitely was not to the same extent.
Kakashi deffered to Shikamaru because he already had intel on Kakuzu's abilities while Kakashi had none. Shikamaru also told Kakashi of the plan beforehand, and if he saw something wrong, then he would have said something.
Also, please do not compare that one feat to Kakashi's multiple of feats against much stronger and much trickier opponents than Kakuzu. It's not just hype. He's proved it over and over again.
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Bolded: Right it isn't so how can you argue that it'll stalemate Kakashi's water wall? That's Itachi's best katon so how can you keep arguing for Kakashi having only a slightly better ninjutsu arsenal when the techs he doesn't even use are more powerful overall than Chidori or Rasengan let alone Kakashi's other techs.
Wrong about the earth style wall as I already showed you.
Sure, maybe if Itachi looks down before Kakashi or a clone reaches hime which he didn't think to do in canon until the last second. Even then, he only noticed the bunshin, and only found out it was a bunshin after said bunshin let himself get caught in genjutsu to give Naruto an opening to nail him with Oodama Rasengan.
SMH..............................................
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Weaker in terms of chakra levels, not in anything else.
Slightly superior footspeed that doesn't play a role as much as striking speed in CQC, reactions that don't mean as much nor is the gap so large as you say as proven by their altercation in canon and by Kakashi's own reaction feats, and they're even in kenjutsu, which is the art of weaponry.
Kakashi has 3T precog and better reactions than Bee, don't see this happening.
Badly??? I'm sorry but that is just being completely ignorant of Kakashi's abilities. From what we saw in canon, both the manga and the databook say otherwise when we consider their collective feats, dual 4.5/5 in taijutsu, and the fact that they stalemated in hand to hand. If Itachi had such grater reaction time, and is so much better and faster than Kakashi in CQC, then why did they stalemate in canon? Why are they protrayed to be equals in CQC?! This is not even mentioning how Kakashi can open the first gate and increase his speed in all areas. Even if you were to have proved anything you said in your argument about Itachi being so much faster or so much more reactive, it still wouldn't have been badly.
Kakashi isn't at all like Sasuke when it comes to fighting. Firstly, he's never going to take a direct approach at first, not when his bread and butter revolves around effective clone feints.
Second, Itachi has never, never in canon figured out a clone feint from Kakashi in the heat of battle until it was too late, and his reserves suck as well, so how Itachi will be able to counter the amount of clones Kakashi can make is beyond me.
Third, just because Kakashi hasn't shown to be able to do it doesn't mean that he can't do it. That is a task that most skilled shinobi can do. Your argument is tantamount to Zexion's argument "Jman has only shown to make 1 clone so he can't make more than 1 clone lml" (sorry Zex, but that was a bad argument). Just so you know I'm not talking about Ranton (Water/Lightning KKG), Kakashi can use a water tech then infuse it with his own lightning chakra via Raikiri Wolf or Raikiri like he's able to infuse weapons with the raikiri.
Good, because Kakashi is going to want Itachi to dodge, which will lead him to other traps with the bunshins Kakashi can occult both underground, and around the environment.
Spamming raikiri weapons is literally nothing to him when he used Kamui 5 times and cut his chakra in half by using one bunshin, and Kamui takes a shit ton of chakra. Take a look at his stamina chart again (courtesy of EliteKakashi).
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