[Theory] Cogitation regarding the Juubi, Rinnegan, and the zenith of Naruto and Sasuke's power
- Thread starter Transcendence
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Transcendence
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Senju Bean
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Great work!
Although I am confused about 2 things.
1) How does Naruto gain the rinnegan over Juubito? Sure it is foreshadowed that he'll get the rinnegan due to the bijuus. But Jubbito has more of the Bijuus inside him than Naruto does. Even if Naruto gains Karama's other half, he will still have 1 tailed beast and parts of all the others. Jubbito on the other hand has 7 full tailed beasts and parts of the remaining two. He also has the sharingan, which is much closer to the rinnegan than naruto's ordinary eyes. Jubbito is the prime candidate have a pair of rinnegan.
2) It doesn't really sit well with me that Sasuke's EMS will exceed Madara's Rinnegan. How can EMS>Pure Rinnegan in ability? That's like saying its possible that sometimes SS2 > SS3 in DBZ. Sure its possible, but very distasteful. If Sasuke gets this op time control, then what would be the point of the Rinnegan?
Is this when the Sharingan out evolves the Rinnegan?
Although I am confused about 2 things.
1) How does Naruto gain the rinnegan over Juubito? Sure it is foreshadowed that he'll get the rinnegan due to the bijuus. But Jubbito has more of the Bijuus inside him than Naruto does. Even if Naruto gains Karama's other half, he will still have 1 tailed beast and parts of all the others. Jubbito on the other hand has 7 full tailed beasts and parts of the remaining two. He also has the sharingan, which is much closer to the rinnegan than naruto's ordinary eyes. Jubbito is the prime candidate have a pair of rinnegan.
2) It doesn't really sit well with me that Sasuke's EMS will exceed Madara's Rinnegan. How can EMS>Pure Rinnegan in ability? That's like saying its possible that sometimes SS2 > SS3 in DBZ. Sure its possible, but very distasteful. If Sasuke gets this op time control, then what would be the point of the Rinnegan?
Is this when the Sharingan out evolves the Rinnegan?
Transcendence
Active member
For the first part: Juubito doesn't have ALL the Bijuu's only 7 of them. Naruto has presumably 7-8 of them (Shukaku was a retcon most likely since he appeared behind Naruto) and all Naruto needs is Gyuki's to complete all 9. Remember, the Juubi is attempting to recover the chakra it needs by taking in nature chakra. It still isn't complete.
Second part: I was more or so saying that he would surpass EMS Madara handily but in terms of pure abilities the Perfect Susano'o actually trumps EVERYTHING we have seen with the Rinnegan. It rivals the destructive power and offensively, it can demolish Chibaku Tensei. Defensively it tanks any attack the Rinnegan offers. You look at it too linearly. Saying what would be the point of the Rinnegan because of time control is kind of pointless. The Mangekyou's abilities are dependent on the user and from what have seen, the more important the person (Uchiha) the stronger their abilities are.
Take Obito. He's the main antagonist and he has the most hax ability; Kamui. Sasuke is the main Uchiha and as such he will gain a superior ability.
Thank you for your comment though. Very good thoughts on the theory that I will rep you accordingly for.
Senju Bean
Active member
Thanks, just trying to help out with the theory.
1)I think that it's possible that naruto might gain the rinnegan not because he has more of the bijjus, but that he has won their friendship. When talking about the actual amount of Bijuu, Obito has much more since actually absorbed their bodies and chakara. Afterall, since naruto talk no justu his way out of everything, this wouldn't be surprising. And maybe this is a better way of obtaining power( i.e rinnegan) than what the Sage of Six paths did. Since the sage of six paths took the juubi by brute force, he wasn't able to stop the hatred of the juubi, which transfered down throughout history.
2)True. Another thought has crossed my mind: different Rinnegans depend heavily on where they came from. If sasuke's EMS>madara's Rinnegan, then if Sasuke gets the Rinnegan, it will not only be much more powerful than Madara's but it will have it's own abilities more in line with what previously had. So Sasuke's Rinnegan might even be able to time travel, create dimensions etc.
But I guess the problem with the analysis I just gave is that Madara actually prefers to use his Susanno to his Rinnegan abilities. So far, EMS>Rinnegan since even a user of the Rinnegan doesn't find much use for it if they have sharingan abilities. Could it be that Madara didn't master it to the full extent like he did with the Sharingan? But when we see Sasuke get the MS, even without experience, he was much more powerful starting off with MS in a fight.
Is there something so special about the Rinnegan itself that justifies its relatively small power boost compared to the effort needed to obtain it?( Madara wasted his whole life trying to get it). Let's assume for argument's sake that Madara didn't care about the Moon's Eye Plan. Lets further assume that all he wanted is to get the Rinnegan and be revived in the future. Does that even justify the cost?
1)I think that it's possible that naruto might gain the rinnegan not because he has more of the bijjus, but that he has won their friendship. When talking about the actual amount of Bijuu, Obito has much more since actually absorbed their bodies and chakara. Afterall, since naruto talk no justu his way out of everything, this wouldn't be surprising. And maybe this is a better way of obtaining power( i.e rinnegan) than what the Sage of Six paths did. Since the sage of six paths took the juubi by brute force, he wasn't able to stop the hatred of the juubi, which transfered down throughout history.
2)True. Another thought has crossed my mind: different Rinnegans depend heavily on where they came from. If sasuke's EMS>madara's Rinnegan, then if Sasuke gets the Rinnegan, it will not only be much more powerful than Madara's but it will have it's own abilities more in line with what previously had. So Sasuke's Rinnegan might even be able to time travel, create dimensions etc.
But I guess the problem with the analysis I just gave is that Madara actually prefers to use his Susanno to his Rinnegan abilities. So far, EMS>Rinnegan since even a user of the Rinnegan doesn't find much use for it if they have sharingan abilities. Could it be that Madara didn't master it to the full extent like he did with the Sharingan? But when we see Sasuke get the MS, even without experience, he was much more powerful starting off with MS in a fight.
Is there something so special about the Rinnegan itself that justifies its relatively small power boost compared to the effort needed to obtain it?( Madara wasted his whole life trying to get it). Let's assume for argument's sake that Madara didn't care about the Moon's Eye Plan. Lets further assume that all he wanted is to get the Rinnegan and be revived in the future. Does that even justify the cost?
Transcendence
Active member
I believe the powers of the Dojutsu and any subsequent power have to do with the wielder. For instance, like you said, Sasuke with MS immediately was able to make ample use of the Dojutsu. He was fighting off the Raikage dubiously and was able to easily tanked a massively combined attack and he had only recently obtained the Mangekyou Sharingan. Madara as well. He was extremely adept with his Eien No Mangekyo, and his abilities reflect that. He probably can use the Rinnegan on a similar level compared to Nagato, but you shouldn't expect any more.
If Naruto were to gain the Rinnegan, his techniques would be on a different level than any Rinnegan user we have seen due to being the 9 Tails Jinchuriki. Just a fraction of its chakra allowed Kakashi to warp THE 8 TAILS. Same with if Obito right now were to do a Shinra Tensei, it would be massive in comparison to Pein's/Nagato/Madara.
On the note of Sasuke, he has only had EMS, for what? 3 days? He is still getting accustomed to it.
Transcendence
Active member
Exactly. I admit, I am more of a fan of Naruto and part of the reason I want him to get the Rinnegan is because of the whole Rikudou parallel, but I never underrate or berate Sasuke in the slightest. I even stated what you stated in the theory: He pulled it out without any massive intent to kill. He was facing fodder Zetsu. There was no need to try.
Transcendence
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accept pain
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Transcendence
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accept pain
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yes,officially. killer bee ,jiraiya,and some others are better than itachi but don't saying that he is not strong,of course he is strong.
Rikudou Sennin balls
Member
I like the fact that this thread was well thought out. But I don't agree with everything you've said. Like the Jubbi gaining the Rikudou Sennin the rinnegan. As we can see that's just not true. Obito already had the rinnegan yet his sharing an eye didn't change. The Rikudou Sennin already posessed the rinnegan. That's how he defeated the jubi because he had the knowlage of jutsu. The sharing an is just an unevolved rinnegan. The Rikudou Sennin was just born a gifted freak of nature like Madara and Harashima.
As for Naruto gaining the rinnegan it's not going to happen. Has anyone ever throught about the idea that Naruto is only half the Rikudou Sennin. Yes Naruto is the main character but Sasuke is almost as important. Look at what these two can do together they've impressed all 4 hokages, which are the strongest people in history. Without talking they can make proper stregties and can combine their jutsu to even match the chakra ratio. Naruto is the body and Sasuke is the eyes of the Rikudou Sennin. Naruto will continue to gain chakra that will increase in power and Sasuke will continue to increase the powers in his eyes.
Naruto's new power might include 100% Kurama's power, all the chakra of the tailed beast and a combination with sage mode making Naruto another Rikudou Sennin.
Sasuke on the other hand I agree with you 100% that Perfect Susanoo is a guarantee for Sasukr and Sasuke might get a variant of the rinnegan maybe by adding Karin or Naruto's DNA to his own (most likely Karin) Sasuke will gain the swirling eyes. Together Naruto and Sasuke become the Rikudou Sennin. By adding PS to Naruto's Bijuu Mode no physical can harm neither of them and Sasuke can absorb any chakra base attack. Plus their combined attack power is something great.
As for Naruto gaining the rinnegan it's not going to happen. Has anyone ever throught about the idea that Naruto is only half the Rikudou Sennin. Yes Naruto is the main character but Sasuke is almost as important. Look at what these two can do together they've impressed all 4 hokages, which are the strongest people in history. Without talking they can make proper stregties and can combine their jutsu to even match the chakra ratio. Naruto is the body and Sasuke is the eyes of the Rikudou Sennin. Naruto will continue to gain chakra that will increase in power and Sasuke will continue to increase the powers in his eyes.
Naruto's new power might include 100% Kurama's power, all the chakra of the tailed beast and a combination with sage mode making Naruto another Rikudou Sennin.
Sasuke on the other hand I agree with you 100% that Perfect Susanoo is a guarantee for Sasukr and Sasuke might get a variant of the rinnegan maybe by adding Karin or Naruto's DNA to his own (most likely Karin) Sasuke will gain the swirling eyes. Together Naruto and Sasuke become the Rikudou Sennin. By adding PS to Naruto's Bijuu Mode no physical can harm neither of them and Sasuke can absorb any chakra base attack. Plus their combined attack power is something great.
Gyakusetsu
Active member
You're correct that folks are forgetting the Mind (Sasuke) however that path leads to status-quo in Narutoverse. You have to include antagonist in the equation to escape. It is a circular deadlock. Sasuke>Naruto>Dark Naruto>Sasuke.
Solution: Headbutt harder? After all he just wants back inside.
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Transcendence
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People bring the concept of the "Elder and Younger son" and deem it as utter fact way too much. Fact of the matter is, if Kishimoto wanted Naruto to truly represent the Younger Son and fulfill what Hashirama couldn't he would have made him a Pure Senju, as they are the descendants of the Younger Son. As also stated in the theory, Naruto gaining the Rinnegan is very strong yes, and is probably the closest thing to Rikudou besides current Obito, but don't look past PS Sasuke with insane Enton techs w/ Time Manipulation. Time Manipulation is retardedly haxxed beyond belief and still makes them relatively equal.
But both of you, thank you for commenting.
The whiskers came as an influence from Kurama as he was sealed inside Kushina while she was pregnant.
Transcendence
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DarkWolf Nashoba
Member
After some careful consideration, I've read the entirety of this theory and rated each of it's aspects on a scale of one to five.
The order in which the assertions were presented was nearly flawless. The only problem I had with the organization was the use of spoiler tags to encompass large quotes from other NB members rather than using
For example:
Varrah proposed the following statements concerning matters involving the link between Perfect Susano'o and Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan:
If you prefer, you could also place "quotation marks" around the paragraph provided by other members within the spoiler tags and place the name of the member who made the statement(s) at the end of the quote, like so:
One other complaint I have about the format was the redundancy; the use of the Jinchuriki/Bijū side-effects discussion came up two or three times in multiple sections. It lengthened the thread beyond what was necessary and made for a boring read at the beginning. The tomoe's seemed to come up more times than I cared to read about as well.
Aside from that, the layout was really good.
The majority of the theory exhibited intelligent use of word choice in order to effectively communicate the various points presented. The greatest problem with this particular theory's diction (and in most of your theories) is the unnecessary overuse of superlatives.
Here's some examples:
The below statement is similar to the one above. If the original Sage of the Six Paths had been born with the eyes of the Progenitor of the world, then it's possible that it was due to some freak incident in which he was exposed to the Jūbi's chakra in his mother's womb or some off-the-wall occurrence like that. I certainly don't think this is the case, but you never know until Kishimoto finally reveals the truth. Once again, the likelihood of Rikudō Sennin having been born with the Rinnegan is quite slim, but it doesn't make it impossible.
To conclude this section, I merely advise that you substitute your massive superlatives with some lighter/less-assertive phrases.
"Highly suggestive, nearly undeniable, possible evidence that point towards, almost completely certain, etc."
These all say the same thing yet maintain the fact that when constructing a hypothesis, we must remember that it is required to be testable and falsifiable.
You didn't have supporting evidence to completely back up all of your propositions. Although, this was merely because many of them are self-sufficient or are accepted as fact by the vast majority of the Base populace. As for the potential power-ups discussion toward the end, that is all baseless speculation which doesn't have a whole lot of material to support it anyway and you admit that openly, so I'll let that slide. The manga scans that you did provide were perfect for demonstrating your points and clearly gave you a solid foundation upon which your claims firmly stand. A job well done. I would have preferred just a tad more evidence for certain aspects of the thread, but overall there's not much to complain about.
Seeing as supporting evidence is the most important part of erecting a strong hypothesis, I can say with little doubt that this is one of the best "theory" threads on the Base.
3) The body/moukton and eye/sharingan symbolic parallels still have yet to be completely validated and is still deadlocked in viscious competition with the other set of symbolic parallels consisting of the elder son/Sasuke and younger son/Naruto comparisons.
Keep in mind that Sasuke was born first, which provides further supporting evidence for the latter of the two parallel sets:
I'm not particularly settled on which symbolic parallels that I believe are most likely to hold true because both sets have a large quantity of perceived evidence to back them up. It may even be possible that both sets of parallels are present. Just because Naruto possesses traits that resemble the younger son doesn't exclude him from representing traits that point to Rikudō Sennin also.
Layout/Format
(4.5/5)
(4.5/5)
The order in which the assertions were presented was nearly flawless. The only problem I had with the organization was the use of spoiler tags to encompass large quotes from other NB members rather than using
This is primarily a matter of preference, but if insisting on using spoiler tags for large quotes, then please be sure to precede the quote with a mention of who wrote it so that we're not confused about it's origin or assuming that you wrote it.DarkWolf Nashoba said:
For example:
Varrah proposed the following statements concerning matters involving the link between Perfect Susano'o and Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan:
It is customary for any Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan to attain Final Susanoo because the user in questioned now has supplementing ocular powers unto their own. Final Susanoo can only be reach by an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan and not a Mangekyou Sharingan and constructing it to the levels of “Perfect Susanoo” is a matter of synthesizing the user’s own ocular powers with the powers received from donor’s Mangekyou Sharingan. It is not a product of sudden realization or else Sasuke likely what have displayed it in his openings of his Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. It is something requiring mastery—which is the melody of the Sharingan itself.
"It is customary for any Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan to attain Final Susanoo because the user in questioned now has supplementing ocular powers unto their own. Final Susanoo can only be reach by an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan and not a Mangekyou Sharingan and constructing it to the levels of “Perfect Susanoo” is a matter of synthesizing the user’s own ocular powers with the powers received from donor’s Mangekyou Sharingan. It is not a product of sudden realization or else Sasuke likely what have displayed it in his openings of his Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. It is something requiring mastery—which is the melody of the Sharingan itself."
^^^ Varrah
^^^ Varrah
One other complaint I have about the format was the redundancy; the use of the Jinchuriki/Bijū side-effects discussion came up two or three times in multiple sections. It lengthened the thread beyond what was necessary and made for a boring read at the beginning. The tomoe's seemed to come up more times than I cared to read about as well.
Aside from that, the layout was really good.
Word Choice/Diction
(3.5/5)
(3.5/5)
The majority of the theory exhibited intelligent use of word choice in order to effectively communicate the various points presented. The greatest problem with this particular theory's diction (and in most of your theories) is the unnecessary overuse of superlatives.
Here's some examples:
In fiction, names are often powerful indicators describing the nature of whatever or whomever the name is designated to. However, names aren't everything. For example, Ino's name translates to "boar," but bares very little significance relating to her character. I tried to find other counterexamples in Kishimoto's naming of characters and places, but very few exist. So it is extremely likely that the naming of the Rinnegan is indicative of its origin, but by no means is it a logical certainty.
The below statement is similar to the one above. If the original Sage of the Six Paths had been born with the eyes of the Progenitor of the world, then it's possible that it was due to some freak incident in which he was exposed to the Jūbi's chakra in his mother's womb or some off-the-wall occurrence like that. I certainly don't think this is the case, but you never know until Kishimoto finally reveals the truth. Once again, the likelihood of Rikudō Sennin having been born with the Rinnegan is quite slim, but it doesn't make it impossible.
In this excerpt,
we see the use of "undeniable." The examples you gave of Jinchuriki/Bijū effects currently known to us are indeed undeniable and highly suggestive of that which remains unknown. On the other hand, what if Fū is unique in that she has no side-effect from hosting Chōmei? I actually half-expect her to have an ability that allows her to spout insect wings and fly or something crazy like that, but it's still slightly possible that she doesn't have any side-effects due to being a Jinchuriki.
To conclude this section, I merely advise that you substitute your massive superlatives with some lighter/less-assertive phrases.
"Highly suggestive, nearly undeniable, possible evidence that point towards, almost completely certain, etc."
These all say the same thing yet maintain the fact that when constructing a hypothesis, we must remember that it is required to be testable and falsifiable.
Supporting Evidence/Manga Scans
(4.8/5)
(4.8/5)
You didn't have supporting evidence to completely back up all of your propositions. Although, this was merely because many of them are self-sufficient or are accepted as fact by the vast majority of the Base populace. As for the potential power-ups discussion toward the end, that is all baseless speculation which doesn't have a whole lot of material to support it anyway and you admit that openly, so I'll let that slide. The manga scans that you did provide were perfect for demonstrating your points and clearly gave you a solid foundation upon which your claims firmly stand. A job well done. I would have preferred just a tad more evidence for certain aspects of the thread, but overall there's not much to complain about.
Seeing as supporting evidence is the most important part of erecting a strong hypothesis, I can say with little doubt that this is one of the best "theory" threads on the Base.
Other Things Worth Making Note Of
1) I thought this here was a great explanation to something I had always wondered about. ^^^
2) This serves as an interesting reason for why Juubito only possesses his one original Rinnegan eye if we assume that sealing the final form of the Jūbi within one's self grants the user the Rinnegan. It also creates the possibility of Naruto obtaining the Rinnegan if this explanation eventually proves to be true.
3) The body/moukton and eye/sharingan symbolic parallels still have yet to be completely validated and is still deadlocked in viscious competition with the other set of symbolic parallels consisting of the elder son/Sasuke and younger son/Naruto comparisons.
Keep in mind that Sasuke was born first, which provides further supporting evidence for the latter of the two parallel sets:
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Transcendence
Active member
Your reviewing skills are immaculate, if I may say. About the Varrah explanation, I planned on quoting them, but I was hard pressed for time when I was posting the theory as I had other matters to attend to.
Thank you for reading.
DarkWolf Nashoba
Member
Thank you for the compliment. Being short on time is understandable. I will also have little time to dedicate to visiting the NB forums as soon as this semester begins in 1.5 weeks.
In any case, if the Naruto story-line were to proceed in the manner you've described, then it would make for quite the entertaining read.
In any case, if the Naruto story-line were to proceed in the manner you've described, then it would make for quite the entertaining read.