Transcendence
Active member
Topics that will be discussed
- The impossibility of the Sage being born with the Rinnegan
- How the sons powers directly stem from the Juubi and not Rikudou
- Being the Juubi Jinchuriki grants the Jin the Rinnegan
- Explaining how it is possible for Naruto to awaken the Rinnegan
- Proving how anybody with the Eien No Mangekyou gains Perfect Susano’o
- Final speculation on how Naruto and Sasuke will be powered up by the end
1. The impossibility of the Sage being born with the Rinnegan
Before delving in to this topic, let’s see a description from Sir Derp Obito himself about the Rinnegan:
My own description:
To summarize: The Sage was said to have transcended humanism (Being beyond human) after the sealing of the Juubi. This is what gave him the moniker of being a “God” so to speak. The Juubi is the known progenitor of the Naruto universe. It has ripples around its eye like the Rinnegan and tomoes on its eye like the Sharingan. The effects on a host are highlighted by the dominating factors of the Bijuu (Naruto’s whiskers because Kurama is a fox), and the Juubi is no different. Being the original composition of the 9 tailed beasts, the effects it would have on a host are on a much grander scale. The Rinnegan is commonly associated with the word “God”. What is the Juubi? A God. Tomoe’s have been largely represented by the Uchiha in their eyes, and we know them as the clan of hatred. What does the Juubi have on its eye? Tomoe’s.
2. The sons powers stem directly from the Juubi, not Rikudou
We know for a fact that the most powerful Senju in the history of the Senju clan is none other than Senju Hashirama. Correct? Now, what is he most prominently known for? His mastery of Mokuton. Mokuton is a clear representation of the “Body” because it has tremendous life force (What the Younger Son was noted to have) and has the ability to give life (Hashirama was able to bring the Mokuton to life because of the life force he possessed). Under that premise, it is safe to assume Hashirama is the peak of the Younger Son’s abilities.
Examples of the Juubi displaying feats of Mokuton or feats reminiscent of Mokuton:
Now, what about the “Eyes”? Well, we know it was passed down to the Elder Son, the progenitor of the Uchiha clan. The Uchiha are prominently known for their Sharingan. And what are the preliminary stages of the Sharingan? Tomoe’s.
Comparison of the Juubi’s eye and the Tomoe’d Sharingan:
This hatred clearly stems from the Juubi. While it was stated by Kurama that it has no “ideals” or feelings, that act of attacking the humans (during Rikudou’s era) which prompted Rikudou to battle it is an act of malicious intent.
Even Obito admits it here:
This is clearly reminiscent of malicious intent, or the synonymous word known as “hatred”. The “eyes” rather than being supplemented from Rikudou and a diluted version of his Rinnegan, are more supplemented from the Juubi’s hatred towards the Human race and Rikudou especially. And what do we know about the Sharingan? The more hatred a wielder bears, the stronger their Sharingan gets. We’ve seen Sasuke reach the peak of the possible amount of hatred and he now wields the Eien No Mangekyou Sharingan. The same applies to the living incarnation of Madara, albeit the differing situations that lead to their respective hatreds is debatable as to who is more “righteous” in their hatred (I lean more to Sasuke).
3. Being the Juubi Jinchuriki grants the Jin the Rinnegan
Before going in to this, we must establish one undeniable fact: EVERY Tailed Beast has an effect on their Jinchuriki to some extent.
Some examples:
1. Gaara – When he was the Jinchuriki of Shukaku, Gaara gained the ability of “Sand Release”. He was able to control Sand at a whim with his own chakra. The Ultimate defense however, was due to his mother’s love and will (Not thoroughly explained though), however it still stands that Gaara got Sand Release solely from Shukaku. And what could be the most important piece of fact in this entire segment; GAARA KEPT HIS SAND RELEASE, even after Shukaku was forcefully extracted out of his body (This is important because this would be near proof that the Sage kept the Rinnegan after the beast was extracted out of him). Gaara is living proof that even if the Tailed Beast is extracted, the effects it had on the Jin are eternal.
2. Yugito – Yugito was the Jinchuriki of the Two tails; Matatabi. Yugito can use Fire Release to shoot a ball of hair surrounded by fire that turns into the shape of a mouse and then breaks up into several single hairs on fire that can pursue the target. When Yugito tapped into Matatabi’s powers, the properties of the Fire Ball would be accentuated further and having differing aesthetic features. Yugito gained the ability to grow her finger and toe nails for use in Taijutsu; odds are it came from Matatabi. It was never shown after extraction if she would keep that ability, but using Gaara as a template, there is a high possibility that would be the case.
3. Roushi – Roushi was the Jinchuriki of Son Goku. By borrowing powers from Son Goku, Roushi was able to make use of its Lava Release; something Roushi became known for. Roushi is further proof of the premise that the Bijuu have undeniable effects on the Jinchuriki. He specifically gained that release because of Son Goku. Again, basing this off of Gaara’s situation, it is highly likely (I’d say almost a logical certainty since it is a specific release) that had Roushi came back to life somehow after the extraction, he would have retained his famed Lava Release that he gained from Son Goku.
4. Killer Bee – Killer Bee is the Jinchuriki of the 8 tails; Gyuki. When Bee wants to, he is able to use an ink based technique derived from Gyuki; something that is associated with all Octopus. This ability comes strictly from Gyuki. However, it isn’t known if Gyuki gives any specific Nature Transformation, as we have seen a good portion of the Bijuu do (2 tails, 3 tails, 4 tails, 6 tails) but some don’t (8 tails and 9 tails primarily). Shown in this scan:
Killer Bee makes use of the Ink ability against Kisame in an attempt to thwart the Water Dome Technique. This is done without the need for transforming into Gyuki which indicates this was an ability passed on through Gyuki to Killer Bee.
5. Naruto – Naruto is the Jinchuriki of the 9 tails; Kurama. Kurama’s actual abilities are something of a mystery concerning transformations but he has given noteworthy abilities to Naruto through Tailed Beast Mode; Defense Cloak, Flash Bijuu Dama, Increased Healing, Increased Speed etc. When Kushina was pregnant with Naruto she was still the Jinchuriki of Kurama. Kurama is a fox and foxes are noted to have whiskers. Naruto gained the whiskers he is known for because of Kurama’s influence in Kushina’s womb.
This part needs a non-numbered segment...
Rikudou Sennin (Sage of the Six Paths) – Rikudou was the Jinchuriki of the 10 tails (Final Form Juubi). He is the biggest anomaly in the entire series because very little has been revealed of his existence and anything we do know about him is very vague and is open to speculation. However some underlying facts need to be established:
1. The Rinnegan (as stated in the beginning of the thread) is the Eye of Samsara; which roughly translates to the Eye of Suffering. Being born with an Eye is not suffering. This would make the Eye change names and be called the Eye of Bodhisattva; or the Eye of the Sage. There is no suffering during birth nor is there being born with an eye. This alone is a great piece against the possibility of Rikudou being born with the Rinnegan.
2. As established above, every Bijuu (Only 5 were explained but it applies to all) has an effect on their hosts through their influence. Kurama’s influence in Kushina’s womb gave Naruto his whiskers, Shukaku’s influence on Gaara gave Gaara his Sand Release, Son Goku’s influence on Roushi gave Roushi his Lava release etc. Now, we have also seen that the Juubi is on another level in comparison to all the Bijuu and pretty much everything in the Naruto universe. If the collective pieces that comprise the Juubi have lasting effects on their hosts, why wouldn’t the Progenitor itself have an effect on its host? Especially on a larger scale. Think if all the abilities of each Bijuu were put into one being (Not being the Juubi). 1 Tails Sand Release, 2 tails Fire Release, 3 Tails use of Water Release, 4 tails Lava Release, 5 tails Steam Release, 6 tails Acid Release, 7 tails Bug based Ninjutsu, 8 tails Ink Release and the 9 tails abilities. The scale of this beast would be enormous and the host of it would gain the abilities. THIS APPLIES TO RIKUDOU AS WELL. Due to the sheer scale of the Juubi’s power and influence it is impossible for it not to have an effect on Rikudou as a host.
Due to the Juubi being noted as a “God” (The Progenitor of all Chakra and the Progenitor in general) it must have “Godly” influence on its host. What is commonly associated with “God” and is known as a Godly power? The Rinnegan. This is the power granted to Rikudou from the Juubi’s influence.
Look at the Juubi’s eye in comparison to the Rinnegan:
If you were to superimpose the image… YOU GET THE RINNEGAN. How could the Rinnegan not come from the Juubi? Like I said earlier, the Ripples are an indication of the Rinnegan, but the tomoe’s are “hatred” and they have corrupted the overall eye. What the Sage has/had was the regulated Dojutsu of the Juubi without the hatred (This comes from its chakra influence on Rikudou). Refer back to when Ay was speaking to his cousin about being a Jinchuriki. His cousin said “You need something to fill the void in your empty heart or you will be overtaken”. This is the “Regulation” that I am talking about. Rikudou was able to suppress the Juubi’s imminent hatred much like how Naruto was able to take chakra from Kurama and attain Kyuubi chakra mode (Regulated Kurama’s chakra and how Naruto’s body/seal was able to conceal Kurama’s hatred).
This little tidbit is a little off the initial topic but it ties in perfectly. We know that the Sage had two sons. Correct? What we also know is that they both embody one characteristic power wise; the younger son with the Body and the Elder Son with the Eyes. What seems so off about this is how they are literally so different (both in looks and powers possessed) even though biologically they share extremely similar DNA. Or so it would seem. Rikudou is famed in the manga for using the highest form of Yin-Yang release; Creation of All Things. He can create something out of nothing. Simple as that. The only documented use of this technique is when Rikudou used it to create the 9 Bijuu from the Juubi’s chakra.
But something nobody ever brings up; HE WAS THE HOST OF THE JUUBI WHEN HIS SONS WERE ALIVE. Genetically, it is downright impossible that the split between the sons are so different that they embody separate characteristics. If there was a natural birth through biological means, they would have similar abilities since they share the genes from their parents (and primarily their father). Therefore, it is downright impossible for them to be born naturally which only leaves one possibility for their existence; Creation of All Things. Think about it. At the time, Rikudou was the Jinchuriki of the Ten Tails. His primary source of chakra being the ten tails. When he created his sons that chakra was part of it and we know from various scans that the Juubi possessed Mokuton (Hashirama – Younger Son) and it has Tomoe’s that reflect that Uchiha (Madara – Elder Son). This would explain how Madara awakened the Rinnegan. Because the two brothers blood were more than likely Juubi related, reverse engineering that in to one body (Madara having the Uchiha Eyes and the Senju DNA from Hashirama) would awaken the Juubi’s true influence and God power; The Rinnegan.
SDO says something of similar value albeit in a lesser description: “The Elder and Younger Sons are literally the Yin and Yang of the Juubi's essence created with Banbutsu Sozo, the Elder Son is the Yin of the Juubi while the Younger Son is the Yang of the Juubi, that is why their powers are so evenly divided, it is because their conception was not biological, but mystical.”
Which in essence was the same as mine but smaller in the amount of text.
4. Explaining how it is possible for Naruto to awaken the Rinnegan
So now, we are under the belief that the recent parts have established; the Rinnegan originally comes from and or is derived from the Juubi (If you only skipped to this part then read the other parts first or I will create a conclusion portion to TL;DR this all). Now, under this premise, we know something else (That was also stated). The Juubi is comprised of all the Bijuu. Each being a part of its overall and original composition.
Now, if someone were to get the chakra of the 9 Bijuu (Naruto is close) would it not be the same as having the Juubi? Now obviously the chakra would neeed to culminate in one spot inside the person’s body (I believe this is where Rikudou comes in) but the effects would still be the same. With what originally comprised the source of the Rinnegan and all chakra (The 9 Bijuu comprising the Juubi) would have the same effects on Naruto as it did on Rikudou.
Kishimoto is pretty straightforward with his foreshadowing as well:
This isn’t the first time a scan has foreshadowed Naruto’s next power-up. There was build-up to Sage Mode; Jiraiya’s introduction. There was build-up to Kyuubi chakra mode; The Kurama silhouette appearing above Naruto when he resisted Nagato’s control (BM is an extension of such and is put under KCM in power-up context). This is Kishimoto’s foreshadowing of Naruto’s next and final power-up. It’s what he will need to fight Juubito and fulfill his “Rikudou incarnation” parallel.
At the end of this entire thread (right after I compare the full powered up versions of Naruto and Sasuke) I will also give probable final looks for Naruto in his final form.
5. Proving how anyone who gains the Eien No Mangekyou will get Perfect Susano’o
(Credit to Varrah for the second description due to out discussion on the topic)
Basically, when one gains the Eien No Mangekyou, the brother/donor powers now supplement the host’s ocular powers and it transcends to a new level. This new level of Susano’o that is larger (Madara’s final Susano’o) is the next stage for Sasuke and then the subsequent stage of stabilizing it after. We have not seen Sasuke ever go “all out” with his EMS. When he first acquired it he went in to what we know as his Final Susano’o, but he was not going all out, hence the smaller size in comparison to Madara’s. Refer back to the Hashirama vs Madara fight at the VoTE. When it was in the beginning stages of the fight, Madara’s Final Susano’o looked almost exactly the same as Sasuke’s final Susano’o. It wasn’t until the battle got serious that it became larger (The larger Final Susano’o and then the Stabilized Tengu). Sasuke’s next battle was against Kabuto and he didn’t even go past the skeletal stage. His latest fighting, against Juubito/Madara, he has only gone V2 to use the Arrows, which is another sign of “not going all out”. At some point in the coming chapters Sasuke will be forced to go all out and his Susano’o will reflect this, getting much larger in the process (Scale will be similar if not the name as Madara’s).
As seen here, Madara’s Susano’o looks very similar to the latest Susano’o shown by Sasuke, albeit the hands look different than Sasuke’s (Only real distinction but in actuality, Sasuke's are very reminiscent of them)
As displayed here that is the farthest Sasuke went in Susano’o transformations against Kabuto (Skeletal version aka V1).
Seen here, he only uses his lesser Susano’o for the arrow. Nothing more.
6. Final Speculation on how Naruto and Sasuke will be powered up by the end of the manga
Note: There will be a comparison of both just to compare the power and how it makes them the strongest in the manga (Which is bound to happen).
Staying on the note of Sasuke…
Rumor of Time Manipulation
He “feels” Itachi’s power flowing through him. This is not merely an indication, but rather in context this is definite that Sasuke has acquired Itachi’s powers on some kind of level. This new “jutsu” that EMS grants is probably Time manipulation. Itachi’s Douryoku (MS powers) are supplementing the new light of Sasuke.
Sasuke still has retained his MS abilities and on top has Itachi’s. This new jutsu will be a supposed “combination” of the prominent abilities of both of them: Manipulation of Shape Manipulation (Sasuke’s Amaterasu) and Manipulation of time inside the Genjutsu (Itachi’s Tsukuyomi) into a more physical level of time manipulation and perception. The ability will be like a “merger” between the two brothers. Much like how gaining EMS grants a new Dojutsu, gaining the brothers MS grants a new Dojutsu technique because of the combination of the eye techniques.
Now, how will this aid Sasuke? Well… it will make him the de-facto number one on the list. Why?
Look…
Sasuke will have an ability even more hax than Kamui (currently noted to be the most hax ability in the manga according to many). How this ability will be applied? One can only speculate. It could be applied to an apparent vicinity. When Sasuke uses the technique, it will have an Area of Effect. Whoever steps in it is caught in the technique. He may have the ability to control how fast or slow the time is. There are many possibilities, but one thing stands; It would be insanely overpowered. Nagato? Sasuke surpassed. Current Naruto? Surpassed. EMS Madara? Surpassed. Hashirama? Surpassed. The only anomaly in all this is Juubito. He is heralded as a sort of god because of the Juubi. Whether it applies to him is up for debate. But if it does, then Sasuke wins that match-up as well.
“Rikudou Mode Naruto”
(Naruto will a more cloaked version of this but more solidified)
Well, first things first: The other half of the 9 tails chakra. This will obviously happen. What it will give? I don’t believe it to be as significant as people say but I can speculate:
- Beyond his already massive reserves, he’ll probably be rivaled only by Juubito and the Sage when he has Full Kurama.
- Larger Bijuudama.
- Sustain his speed more? (This I’m unsure about).
- Possibly a bit stronger physically.
In comparison to how Sasuke powers up (With his hax ability and OP version of Perfect Susano’o), Naruto can’t win. That’s where…. THE RINNEGAN COMES IN.
Benefits of the Rinnegan for Naruto:
- Access to Deva Path. This will allow him to get people within his immediate vicinity by using Bansho Tenshin. This helps Naruto battle style because he likes to bombard people and to bombard people he needs them somewhat close to him. His Shinra Tensei will be unrivalled due to being a Jinchuriki of the strongest Bijuu (Besides the 10 tails).
- Access to Animal Path which allows Naruto to incorporate summoning more into his arsenal. This was common in part 1 (the use of summonings) and it proved to be very useful against Pein himself.
- Access to Asura Path to help cover his blind spots. However, due to sensing in BM I don’t think this would be as helpful because he will rarely be caught off guard.
I don’t see how Human Path would benefit Naruto seeing as how he isn’t cynical and wouldn’t kill somebody, let alone in such a malicious way (Ripping out their soul). Naruto could make use of Preta Path but against Sasuke’s Susano’o where he will be bombarded by various Susano’o techs and Hax MS abilities, I don’t see it being a massive factor in the fight. Naraka Path is a non-factor in any 1 v 1 fight and it was only applicable when using the Pein bodies.
Possibly create another Rasengan variant. The only one I see him creating is a Fire Rasengan. I don’t see how there could be an Earth Rasengan or any niche it could fill. I don’t see any special abilities a Water Rasengan could give, and lightning is Sasuke’s specialty.
Overall, the Rinnegan would expand his arsenal a lot which is something Naruto lacks.
While people may first think when viewing this part “Rinnegan Naruto roflstomps that Sasuke” you would be dead wrong. In contrast, Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o can tank pretty much anything Naruto throws at him. His Time Manipulation will always have Naruto on his heels, it is that hax. This would be a very equal fight of the two strongest in the entire manga.
In comparison this would be yet another showing of what Naruto and Sasuke are: Naruto is the “massive technique” user with techniques like Chou Rasenshuriken, Chibaku Tensei, Bijuudama etc.. and Sasuke would be the precision user with techniques like Kirin, Enton Sword, Time Manipulation etc.
The final top 10 will look like this:
1. Naruto (As the main character he will edge out Sasuke at the end)
2. Sasuke
3. Juubito
4. Hashirama
5. Madara
6. Nagato
7. Kabuto
8. Minato
9. Itachi
10. Killer Bee
Conclusion
- Due to the naming of the eye, it is improbable and nearly impossible for the Sage to be born with the Rinnegan.
- The Sons powers stem more directly from the Juubi rather than the Sage.
- People with the full 10 tails gain access to the Rinnegan.
- Naruto can/will awaken the Rinnegan because of the Bijuu’s culminated chakra.
- Anybody with the Eien No Mangekyou gains the Final Susano’o (Large Madara version) stabilized as a requisite for acquiring the Dojutsu.
Thank you for reading! I would love to hear your opinions.
- The impossibility of the Sage being born with the Rinnegan
- How the sons powers directly stem from the Juubi and not Rikudou
- Being the Juubi Jinchuriki grants the Jin the Rinnegan
- Explaining how it is possible for Naruto to awaken the Rinnegan
- Proving how anybody with the Eien No Mangekyou gains Perfect Susano’o
- Final speculation on how Naruto and Sasuke will be powered up by the end
1. The impossibility of the Sage being born with the Rinnegan
Before delving in to this topic, let’s see a description from Sir Derp Obito himself about the Rinnegan:
–“ The Rinnegan literally translates as the "Eye of Samsara" aka the "Eye of Suffering" the Rikudou Sennin struggled to battle and seal the Juubi inside himself thus his suffering from the ordeal awakened the Rinnegan. If the Rikudou Sennin was born with the doujutsu, it would be called the Eye of the Bodhisattva or Bosatsugan aka the Eye of the Sage/Sennin, if Rikudou acquired it from knowledge or meditation it would be called the Satorigan or the Eye of Nirvana aka the Eye of Enlightenment"
- The above is true. The Sage fought the Juubi and then sealed it inside himself. This must have put a great deal of pain on the Sage, and he must have SUFFERED to complete the task.
- The above is compliant with this hypothesis. The eye is called the Eye of Samsara, not the Eye of Bodhisatttva nor the Eye of Nirvana. It is a logical impossibility for him to be born with the eye due to the name of it and its origins (Buddhism).
My own description:
Each Jinchuriki had certain side-effects from being the host of each Bijuu, correct? Naruto's whiskers, Gaara's manipulation of sand, Roushi's Lava Release, Utakata's use of bubbles etc... Fact of the matter, each and every single Bijuu had some kind of effect on their hosts. Now, would this not be the case for the thing that comprised them? The Juubi. It has all 9 of them inside of it. It must have some kind of effect on any host it has.
If you look at the Juubi's eye, it is a Sharinnegan; which in hindsight is a combination of the ripples of the Rinnegan and the tomoe's of the Sharingan. What is the Rinnegan known for? Being the eye of a god. What is the Sharingan known for? Being the eye of hatred; since it gets more powerful the more hatred the user has. What do we know about the Juubi? Kurama stated he is a God, and it has malice feelings; which if you extrapolate the definition makes it partially synonymous with hatred.
Rikudou had the Rinnegan, correct? How is it possible that a normal human is born with the eyes of the Progenitor of the world? Implausible, and downright impossible. It is said that Rikudou transcended Humanism AFTER he sealed the Juubi within him... Meaning he was a normal human prior to the sealing. Before you say, "How did Rikudou beat the Juubi without a power like the Rinnegan?” Look at what Hashirama has been doing prior to the sealing. His barrier was able to hold the Juubi down, and without Obito's interference, the Juubi would not have gotten out. It's safe to assume even without the Rinnegan, the Sage was on another level. His sealing weapons alone were immensely power, as shown by the Gin-Kin brothers, who aren't even close to his prowess. The mere fact that he sealed the Juubi means his sealing was basically omnipotent.
Now, refer back to the "AFTER" he sealed the Juubi in him portion. To culminate this, what did I say each Bijuu did to their hosts? Had effects on them. The strongest of them all is bound to bestow power on its host. And this is where Rikudou got his Rinnegan from.
If you look at the Juubi's eye, it is a Sharinnegan; which in hindsight is a combination of the ripples of the Rinnegan and the tomoe's of the Sharingan. What is the Rinnegan known for? Being the eye of a god. What is the Sharingan known for? Being the eye of hatred; since it gets more powerful the more hatred the user has. What do we know about the Juubi? Kurama stated he is a God, and it has malice feelings; which if you extrapolate the definition makes it partially synonymous with hatred.
Rikudou had the Rinnegan, correct? How is it possible that a normal human is born with the eyes of the Progenitor of the world? Implausible, and downright impossible. It is said that Rikudou transcended Humanism AFTER he sealed the Juubi within him... Meaning he was a normal human prior to the sealing. Before you say, "How did Rikudou beat the Juubi without a power like the Rinnegan?” Look at what Hashirama has been doing prior to the sealing. His barrier was able to hold the Juubi down, and without Obito's interference, the Juubi would not have gotten out. It's safe to assume even without the Rinnegan, the Sage was on another level. His sealing weapons alone were immensely power, as shown by the Gin-Kin brothers, who aren't even close to his prowess. The mere fact that he sealed the Juubi means his sealing was basically omnipotent.
Now, refer back to the "AFTER" he sealed the Juubi in him portion. To culminate this, what did I say each Bijuu did to their hosts? Had effects on them. The strongest of them all is bound to bestow power on its host. And this is where Rikudou got his Rinnegan from.
To summarize: The Sage was said to have transcended humanism (Being beyond human) after the sealing of the Juubi. This is what gave him the moniker of being a “God” so to speak. The Juubi is the known progenitor of the Naruto universe. It has ripples around its eye like the Rinnegan and tomoes on its eye like the Sharingan. The effects on a host are highlighted by the dominating factors of the Bijuu (Naruto’s whiskers because Kurama is a fox), and the Juubi is no different. Being the original composition of the 9 tailed beasts, the effects it would have on a host are on a much grander scale. The Rinnegan is commonly associated with the word “God”. What is the Juubi? A God. Tomoe’s have been largely represented by the Uchiha in their eyes, and we know them as the clan of hatred. What does the Juubi have on its eye? Tomoe’s.
2. The sons powers stem directly from the Juubi, not Rikudou
We know for a fact that the most powerful Senju in the history of the Senju clan is none other than Senju Hashirama. Correct? Now, what is he most prominently known for? His mastery of Mokuton. Mokuton is a clear representation of the “Body” because it has tremendous life force (What the Younger Son was noted to have) and has the ability to give life (Hashirama was able to bring the Mokuton to life because of the life force he possessed). Under that premise, it is safe to assume Hashirama is the peak of the Younger Son’s abilities.
Examples of the Juubi displaying feats of Mokuton or feats reminiscent of Mokuton:
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Now, what about the “Eyes”? Well, we know it was passed down to the Elder Son, the progenitor of the Uchiha clan. The Uchiha are prominently known for their Sharingan. And what are the preliminary stages of the Sharingan? Tomoe’s.
Comparison of the Juubi’s eye and the Tomoe’d Sharingan:
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This hatred clearly stems from the Juubi. While it was stated by Kurama that it has no “ideals” or feelings, that act of attacking the humans (during Rikudou’s era) which prompted Rikudou to battle it is an act of malicious intent.
Even Obito admits it here:
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This is clearly reminiscent of malicious intent, or the synonymous word known as “hatred”. The “eyes” rather than being supplemented from Rikudou and a diluted version of his Rinnegan, are more supplemented from the Juubi’s hatred towards the Human race and Rikudou especially. And what do we know about the Sharingan? The more hatred a wielder bears, the stronger their Sharingan gets. We’ve seen Sasuke reach the peak of the possible amount of hatred and he now wields the Eien No Mangekyou Sharingan. The same applies to the living incarnation of Madara, albeit the differing situations that lead to their respective hatreds is debatable as to who is more “righteous” in their hatred (I lean more to Sasuke).
3. Being the Juubi Jinchuriki grants the Jin the Rinnegan
Before going in to this, we must establish one undeniable fact: EVERY Tailed Beast has an effect on their Jinchuriki to some extent.
Some examples:
1. Gaara – When he was the Jinchuriki of Shukaku, Gaara gained the ability of “Sand Release”. He was able to control Sand at a whim with his own chakra. The Ultimate defense however, was due to his mother’s love and will (Not thoroughly explained though), however it still stands that Gaara got Sand Release solely from Shukaku. And what could be the most important piece of fact in this entire segment; GAARA KEPT HIS SAND RELEASE, even after Shukaku was forcefully extracted out of his body (This is important because this would be near proof that the Sage kept the Rinnegan after the beast was extracted out of him). Gaara is living proof that even if the Tailed Beast is extracted, the effects it had on the Jin are eternal.
2. Yugito – Yugito was the Jinchuriki of the Two tails; Matatabi. Yugito can use Fire Release to shoot a ball of hair surrounded by fire that turns into the shape of a mouse and then breaks up into several single hairs on fire that can pursue the target. When Yugito tapped into Matatabi’s powers, the properties of the Fire Ball would be accentuated further and having differing aesthetic features. Yugito gained the ability to grow her finger and toe nails for use in Taijutsu; odds are it came from Matatabi. It was never shown after extraction if she would keep that ability, but using Gaara as a template, there is a high possibility that would be the case.
3. Roushi – Roushi was the Jinchuriki of Son Goku. By borrowing powers from Son Goku, Roushi was able to make use of its Lava Release; something Roushi became known for. Roushi is further proof of the premise that the Bijuu have undeniable effects on the Jinchuriki. He specifically gained that release because of Son Goku. Again, basing this off of Gaara’s situation, it is highly likely (I’d say almost a logical certainty since it is a specific release) that had Roushi came back to life somehow after the extraction, he would have retained his famed Lava Release that he gained from Son Goku.
4. Killer Bee – Killer Bee is the Jinchuriki of the 8 tails; Gyuki. When Bee wants to, he is able to use an ink based technique derived from Gyuki; something that is associated with all Octopus. This ability comes strictly from Gyuki. However, it isn’t known if Gyuki gives any specific Nature Transformation, as we have seen a good portion of the Bijuu do (2 tails, 3 tails, 4 tails, 6 tails) but some don’t (8 tails and 9 tails primarily). Shown in this scan:
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Killer Bee makes use of the Ink ability against Kisame in an attempt to thwart the Water Dome Technique. This is done without the need for transforming into Gyuki which indicates this was an ability passed on through Gyuki to Killer Bee.
5. Naruto – Naruto is the Jinchuriki of the 9 tails; Kurama. Kurama’s actual abilities are something of a mystery concerning transformations but he has given noteworthy abilities to Naruto through Tailed Beast Mode; Defense Cloak, Flash Bijuu Dama, Increased Healing, Increased Speed etc. When Kushina was pregnant with Naruto she was still the Jinchuriki of Kurama. Kurama is a fox and foxes are noted to have whiskers. Naruto gained the whiskers he is known for because of Kurama’s influence in Kushina’s womb.
This part needs a non-numbered segment...
Rikudou Sennin (Sage of the Six Paths) – Rikudou was the Jinchuriki of the 10 tails (Final Form Juubi). He is the biggest anomaly in the entire series because very little has been revealed of his existence and anything we do know about him is very vague and is open to speculation. However some underlying facts need to be established:
1. The Rinnegan (as stated in the beginning of the thread) is the Eye of Samsara; which roughly translates to the Eye of Suffering. Being born with an Eye is not suffering. This would make the Eye change names and be called the Eye of Bodhisattva; or the Eye of the Sage. There is no suffering during birth nor is there being born with an eye. This alone is a great piece against the possibility of Rikudou being born with the Rinnegan.
2. As established above, every Bijuu (Only 5 were explained but it applies to all) has an effect on their hosts through their influence. Kurama’s influence in Kushina’s womb gave Naruto his whiskers, Shukaku’s influence on Gaara gave Gaara his Sand Release, Son Goku’s influence on Roushi gave Roushi his Lava release etc. Now, we have also seen that the Juubi is on another level in comparison to all the Bijuu and pretty much everything in the Naruto universe. If the collective pieces that comprise the Juubi have lasting effects on their hosts, why wouldn’t the Progenitor itself have an effect on its host? Especially on a larger scale. Think if all the abilities of each Bijuu were put into one being (Not being the Juubi). 1 Tails Sand Release, 2 tails Fire Release, 3 Tails use of Water Release, 4 tails Lava Release, 5 tails Steam Release, 6 tails Acid Release, 7 tails Bug based Ninjutsu, 8 tails Ink Release and the 9 tails abilities. The scale of this beast would be enormous and the host of it would gain the abilities. THIS APPLIES TO RIKUDOU AS WELL. Due to the sheer scale of the Juubi’s power and influence it is impossible for it not to have an effect on Rikudou as a host.
Due to the Juubi being noted as a “God” (The Progenitor of all Chakra and the Progenitor in general) it must have “Godly” influence on its host. What is commonly associated with “God” and is known as a Godly power? The Rinnegan. This is the power granted to Rikudou from the Juubi’s influence.
Look at the Juubi’s eye in comparison to the Rinnegan:
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If you were to superimpose the image… YOU GET THE RINNEGAN. How could the Rinnegan not come from the Juubi? Like I said earlier, the Ripples are an indication of the Rinnegan, but the tomoe’s are “hatred” and they have corrupted the overall eye. What the Sage has/had was the regulated Dojutsu of the Juubi without the hatred (This comes from its chakra influence on Rikudou). Refer back to when Ay was speaking to his cousin about being a Jinchuriki. His cousin said “You need something to fill the void in your empty heart or you will be overtaken”. This is the “Regulation” that I am talking about. Rikudou was able to suppress the Juubi’s imminent hatred much like how Naruto was able to take chakra from Kurama and attain Kyuubi chakra mode (Regulated Kurama’s chakra and how Naruto’s body/seal was able to conceal Kurama’s hatred).
This little tidbit is a little off the initial topic but it ties in perfectly. We know that the Sage had two sons. Correct? What we also know is that they both embody one characteristic power wise; the younger son with the Body and the Elder Son with the Eyes. What seems so off about this is how they are literally so different (both in looks and powers possessed) even though biologically they share extremely similar DNA. Or so it would seem. Rikudou is famed in the manga for using the highest form of Yin-Yang release; Creation of All Things. He can create something out of nothing. Simple as that. The only documented use of this technique is when Rikudou used it to create the 9 Bijuu from the Juubi’s chakra.
But something nobody ever brings up; HE WAS THE HOST OF THE JUUBI WHEN HIS SONS WERE ALIVE. Genetically, it is downright impossible that the split between the sons are so different that they embody separate characteristics. If there was a natural birth through biological means, they would have similar abilities since they share the genes from their parents (and primarily their father). Therefore, it is downright impossible for them to be born naturally which only leaves one possibility for their existence; Creation of All Things. Think about it. At the time, Rikudou was the Jinchuriki of the Ten Tails. His primary source of chakra being the ten tails. When he created his sons that chakra was part of it and we know from various scans that the Juubi possessed Mokuton (Hashirama – Younger Son) and it has Tomoe’s that reflect that Uchiha (Madara – Elder Son). This would explain how Madara awakened the Rinnegan. Because the two brothers blood were more than likely Juubi related, reverse engineering that in to one body (Madara having the Uchiha Eyes and the Senju DNA from Hashirama) would awaken the Juubi’s true influence and God power; The Rinnegan.
SDO says something of similar value albeit in a lesser description: “The Elder and Younger Sons are literally the Yin and Yang of the Juubi's essence created with Banbutsu Sozo, the Elder Son is the Yin of the Juubi while the Younger Son is the Yang of the Juubi, that is why their powers are so evenly divided, it is because their conception was not biological, but mystical.”
Which in essence was the same as mine but smaller in the amount of text.
4. Explaining how it is possible for Naruto to awaken the Rinnegan
So now, we are under the belief that the recent parts have established; the Rinnegan originally comes from and or is derived from the Juubi (If you only skipped to this part then read the other parts first or I will create a conclusion portion to TL;DR this all). Now, under this premise, we know something else (That was also stated). The Juubi is comprised of all the Bijuu. Each being a part of its overall and original composition.
Now, if someone were to get the chakra of the 9 Bijuu (Naruto is close) would it not be the same as having the Juubi? Now obviously the chakra would neeed to culminate in one spot inside the person’s body (I believe this is where Rikudou comes in) but the effects would still be the same. With what originally comprised the source of the Rinnegan and all chakra (The 9 Bijuu comprising the Juubi) would have the same effects on Naruto as it did on Rikudou.
Kishimoto is pretty straightforward with his foreshadowing as well:
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This isn’t the first time a scan has foreshadowed Naruto’s next power-up. There was build-up to Sage Mode; Jiraiya’s introduction. There was build-up to Kyuubi chakra mode; The Kurama silhouette appearing above Naruto when he resisted Nagato’s control (BM is an extension of such and is put under KCM in power-up context). This is Kishimoto’s foreshadowing of Naruto’s next and final power-up. It’s what he will need to fight Juubito and fulfill his “Rikudou incarnation” parallel.
At the end of this entire thread (right after I compare the full powered up versions of Naruto and Sasuke) I will also give probable final looks for Naruto in his final form.
5. Proving how anyone who gains the Eien No Mangekyou will get Perfect Susano’o
The Eien No Mangekyou is an entirely new Dojutsu. The Donor’s eyes give new light to the host of the eyes and a new Dojutsu is subsequently born. There have only been two people in the entire storyline to have EMS; Uchiha Madara and Uchiha Sasuke. The first case, the one who mastered it and we have seen many feats from, Madara, had Perfect Susano’o; the ability to stabilize Final Susano’o into a massive Tengu construct with immense capabilities, only rivaled by Bijuu or Hashirama’s Mokuton techniques. Now, ask yourself this: If one of the main Uchiha’s gained what seems to be the ultimate Uchiha power, why wouldn’t the main Uchiha gain it? In order for Sasuke to surpass Madara, he needs such a technique because anything else wouldn’t suffice.
It is customary for any Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan to attain Final Susanoo because the user in questioned now has supplementing ocular powers unto their own. Final Susanoo can only be reach by an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan and not a Mangekyou Sharingan and constructing it to the levels of “Perfect Susanoo” is a matter of synthesizing the user’s own ocular powers with the powers received from donor’s Mangekyou Sharingan. It is not a product of sudden realization or else Sasuke likely what have displayed it in his openings of his Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. It is something requiring mastery—which is the melody of the Sharingan itself.
(Credit to Varrah for the second description due to out discussion on the topic)
Basically, when one gains the Eien No Mangekyou, the brother/donor powers now supplement the host’s ocular powers and it transcends to a new level. This new level of Susano’o that is larger (Madara’s final Susano’o) is the next stage for Sasuke and then the subsequent stage of stabilizing it after. We have not seen Sasuke ever go “all out” with his EMS. When he first acquired it he went in to what we know as his Final Susano’o, but he was not going all out, hence the smaller size in comparison to Madara’s. Refer back to the Hashirama vs Madara fight at the VoTE. When it was in the beginning stages of the fight, Madara’s Final Susano’o looked almost exactly the same as Sasuke’s final Susano’o. It wasn’t until the battle got serious that it became larger (The larger Final Susano’o and then the Stabilized Tengu). Sasuke’s next battle was against Kabuto and he didn’t even go past the skeletal stage. His latest fighting, against Juubito/Madara, he has only gone V2 to use the Arrows, which is another sign of “not going all out”. At some point in the coming chapters Sasuke will be forced to go all out and his Susano’o will reflect this, getting much larger in the process (Scale will be similar if not the name as Madara’s).
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As seen here, Madara’s Susano’o looks very similar to the latest Susano’o shown by Sasuke, albeit the hands look different than Sasuke’s (Only real distinction but in actuality, Sasuke's are very reminiscent of them)
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As displayed here that is the farthest Sasuke went in Susano’o transformations against Kabuto (Skeletal version aka V1).
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Seen here, he only uses his lesser Susano’o for the arrow. Nothing more.
6. Final Speculation on how Naruto and Sasuke will be powered up by the end of the manga
Note: There will be a comparison of both just to compare the power and how it makes them the strongest in the manga (Which is bound to happen).
Staying on the note of Sasuke…
His first power-up, which is also his most significant power-up, will be Final Susano’o (Large Version) and the subsequent Stabilization of it. This much was proven in point number 5 (The previous point). Now, how does this affect Sasuke? Well it catapults him past EMS Madara and about equal to Hashirama.
Let’s analyze what Perfect Susano’o gives Sasuke:
- Extremely high defensive capabilities (Madara’s Susano’o in its skeletal form was taken out by a combined attack from the 5 Kages. They failed to even dent the stabilized version of his Susano’o.
- Far greater agility for his Susano’o due to the construct being bigger and having presumed legs.
- The size of his Susano’o blade will be increased in size dramatically and so will the destructive power of it.
- Said blade will be able to rip apart mountain ranges with just its shockwaves as displayed by Madara.
However, Sasuke is set apart from Madara for one reason; Enton manipulation. Sasuke has displayed mastery of Enton that has never been seen before. He has been seen to create an orb of Amaterasu that he can coat his Susano’o with and or shoot Amaterasu at enemies. He can create a sword made purely out of Enton which, if used in Perfect Susano’o state, will trump the original destructive capabilities of Madara’s because of the added benefit of Enton. He also has access to Enton arrows and if the size increase applies to the sword, it must also apply to the bow and arrow. Can you imagine an Enton Arrow coming off Perfect Susano’o? Godly.
I posted this on someone’s thread regarding how I believe Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o will end up like once its abilities and aesthetics are fleshed out:
Let’s analyze what Perfect Susano’o gives Sasuke:
- Extremely high defensive capabilities (Madara’s Susano’o in its skeletal form was taken out by a combined attack from the 5 Kages. They failed to even dent the stabilized version of his Susano’o.
- Far greater agility for his Susano’o due to the construct being bigger and having presumed legs.
- The size of his Susano’o blade will be increased in size dramatically and so will the destructive power of it.
- Said blade will be able to rip apart mountain ranges with just its shockwaves as displayed by Madara.
However, Sasuke is set apart from Madara for one reason; Enton manipulation. Sasuke has displayed mastery of Enton that has never been seen before. He has been seen to create an orb of Amaterasu that he can coat his Susano’o with and or shoot Amaterasu at enemies. He can create a sword made purely out of Enton which, if used in Perfect Susano’o state, will trump the original destructive capabilities of Madara’s because of the added benefit of Enton. He also has access to Enton arrows and if the size increase applies to the sword, it must also apply to the bow and arrow. Can you imagine an Enton Arrow coming off Perfect Susano’o? Godly.
I posted this on someone’s thread regarding how I believe Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o will end up like once its abilities and aesthetics are fleshed out:
This firmly puts him above alive Madara.
This rumor has been going around for some time. Some people say it’s false, others believe it. We haven’t seen Madara’s EMS enough to know if you get a new ability with it (as we have seen like two or three fights and he just went into Susano’o for its destructive capabilities) but we do know that Sasuke gained a new KKG in Blaze Release, once he gained MS. As per the usual, I was having a discussion with Varrah and we had very similar opinions on the topic. The quote below will have my thoughts on it, and then Varrah’s will follow.
So basically, the concept here is that, Sasuke would be “applying” a more physical version of Tsukuyomi for two reasons: 1. His mastery of the physical MS Tech (Amaterasu) and 2. Itachi’s mastery of the Illusionary MS Tech (Tsukuyomi). Why you ask? This scan:
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He “feels” Itachi’s power flowing through him. This is not merely an indication, but rather in context this is definite that Sasuke has acquired Itachi’s powers on some kind of level. This new “jutsu” that EMS grants is probably Time manipulation. Itachi’s Douryoku (MS powers) are supplementing the new light of Sasuke.
Sasuke still has retained his MS abilities and on top has Itachi’s. This new jutsu will be a supposed “combination” of the prominent abilities of both of them: Manipulation of Shape Manipulation (Sasuke’s Amaterasu) and Manipulation of time inside the Genjutsu (Itachi’s Tsukuyomi) into a more physical level of time manipulation and perception. The ability will be like a “merger” between the two brothers. Much like how gaining EMS grants a new Dojutsu, gaining the brothers MS grants a new Dojutsu technique because of the combination of the eye techniques.
Now, how will this aid Sasuke? Well… it will make him the de-facto number one on the list. Why?
Look…
Sasuke will have an ability even more hax than Kamui (currently noted to be the most hax ability in the manga according to many). How this ability will be applied? One can only speculate. It could be applied to an apparent vicinity. When Sasuke uses the technique, it will have an Area of Effect. Whoever steps in it is caught in the technique. He may have the ability to control how fast or slow the time is. There are many possibilities, but one thing stands; It would be insanely overpowered. Nagato? Sasuke surpassed. Current Naruto? Surpassed. EMS Madara? Surpassed. Hashirama? Surpassed. The only anomaly in all this is Juubito. He is heralded as a sort of god because of the Juubi. Whether it applies to him is up for debate. But if it does, then Sasuke wins that match-up as well.
“Rikudou Mode Naruto”
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(Naruto will a more cloaked version of this but more solidified)
Well, first things first: The other half of the 9 tails chakra. This will obviously happen. What it will give? I don’t believe it to be as significant as people say but I can speculate:
- Beyond his already massive reserves, he’ll probably be rivaled only by Juubito and the Sage when he has Full Kurama.
- Larger Bijuudama.
- Sustain his speed more? (This I’m unsure about).
- Possibly a bit stronger physically.
In comparison to how Sasuke powers up (With his hax ability and OP version of Perfect Susano’o), Naruto can’t win. That’s where…. THE RINNEGAN COMES IN.
Benefits of the Rinnegan for Naruto:
- Access to Deva Path. This will allow him to get people within his immediate vicinity by using Bansho Tenshin. This helps Naruto battle style because he likes to bombard people and to bombard people he needs them somewhat close to him. His Shinra Tensei will be unrivalled due to being a Jinchuriki of the strongest Bijuu (Besides the 10 tails).
- Access to Animal Path which allows Naruto to incorporate summoning more into his arsenal. This was common in part 1 (the use of summonings) and it proved to be very useful against Pein himself.
- Access to Asura Path to help cover his blind spots. However, due to sensing in BM I don’t think this would be as helpful because he will rarely be caught off guard.
I don’t see how Human Path would benefit Naruto seeing as how he isn’t cynical and wouldn’t kill somebody, let alone in such a malicious way (Ripping out their soul). Naruto could make use of Preta Path but against Sasuke’s Susano’o where he will be bombarded by various Susano’o techs and Hax MS abilities, I don’t see it being a massive factor in the fight. Naraka Path is a non-factor in any 1 v 1 fight and it was only applicable when using the Pein bodies.
Possibly create another Rasengan variant. The only one I see him creating is a Fire Rasengan. I don’t see how there could be an Earth Rasengan or any niche it could fill. I don’t see any special abilities a Water Rasengan could give, and lightning is Sasuke’s specialty.
Overall, the Rinnegan would expand his arsenal a lot which is something Naruto lacks.
While people may first think when viewing this part “Rinnegan Naruto roflstomps that Sasuke” you would be dead wrong. In contrast, Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o can tank pretty much anything Naruto throws at him. His Time Manipulation will always have Naruto on his heels, it is that hax. This would be a very equal fight of the two strongest in the entire manga.
In comparison this would be yet another showing of what Naruto and Sasuke are: Naruto is the “massive technique” user with techniques like Chou Rasenshuriken, Chibaku Tensei, Bijuudama etc.. and Sasuke would be the precision user with techniques like Kirin, Enton Sword, Time Manipulation etc.
The final top 10 will look like this:
1. Naruto (As the main character he will edge out Sasuke at the end)
2. Sasuke
3. Juubito
4. Hashirama
5. Madara
6. Nagato
7. Kabuto
8. Minato
9. Itachi
10. Killer Bee
Conclusion
- Due to the naming of the eye, it is improbable and nearly impossible for the Sage to be born with the Rinnegan.
- The Sons powers stem more directly from the Juubi rather than the Sage.
- People with the full 10 tails gain access to the Rinnegan.
- Naruto can/will awaken the Rinnegan because of the Bijuu’s culminated chakra.
- Anybody with the Eien No Mangekyou gains the Final Susano’o (Large Madara version) stabilized as a requisite for acquiring the Dojutsu.
Thank you for reading! I would love to hear your opinions.
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