[Discussion] Clash of the Badass "right hand men"

[Punk Hazard]

I came to this thread to point out that, Shiliew is most likely not BB's first mate. But as I see, there is a debate going on.

Silly people, make threads about the pirates of the old and their links to the OP storyline and then in another thread are just driven by their hate of Zoro.

First mate - The name itself literally means the first person to Join the crew. Is this so difficult to understand?
And I'll provide a manga proof,

Spoiler

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Now among the Handful of first mates in the cannon one piece series, give me a proof of this not being the case and the debate ends.​

Marco is Whitebeard's first mate. Give me proof he was Whitebeard's first recruit, and the debate ends.

One confirmed first mate is a first recruit. I dunno if you know this, but correlation=causation is a fallacy.

first mate
n.
An officer on a merchant ship ranking immediately below the captain.

first mate
noun
The definition of first mate is the person on a boat that is second in charge after the captain.
An example of first mate is the person who gives orders while the captain is busy.

Two different definitions, I see nothing about being the first to join.

 

[Rikud0 Sennin]

First mates in reality were obviously not the first person that joined the crew. Crews would change, often trip to trip. The cannon fodder would die frequently and have to be replaced.
First mates sometimes arise from the cannon fodder as an intermediary for the captain, because the crew hired did not like the captain.
But mostly, acting first mates were just captains of other ships who were visiting on the ship. It was an honorary term given to those who the captain felt should be honored in their stay.
Crews change. First mates change. Ususally its just the captain and his ship that stay the same. But he can upgrade, or abandon his sinking ship as well... so that can change too.



In OP, first mates are the first to join. Silver is golds first mate. Zoro is Luffy's first mate. I have like a theory about Vista being Blackbeard's first mate, but that would break the mold.

 

[IminLovewithMAryj]

I for one Believe that the BB Pirates will clash with the RH pirates eventually, they will win, and Shanks will die.

 

[KingHashirama]

no need for sarcasm when you're wrong, makes it only worse.

Databooks are compiled by assistants based on manga, anime, interviews and sbs. They write some padding around it and slap it in a book.

Oda's name is still on the front because it is his damn manga.

Just like I said before, It's no more canon than a One Piece calender. If you look up a One Piece calender Oda's name also is probably on it, doesn't mean he was photoshopping choppers' Christmas hat in December.



Sanji kicked Luffy through a table during the Usopp argument, weeks before Zoro said something about it. How is that for leadership when you kick the captain and tell him to stop doing what he is doing.

Spoiler

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Lol thats not leadership, he did it out of rage because he was trying to keep them friends.

At that time, everyone but Zoro kept his cool. Zoro only got ticked off when he felt that they were letting the crew become a game where people could leave and comeback as they please.

It's funny because Nami has given the crew more orders than Zoro ever has. The only instance a substantial decision was given to Zoro was what to do while they traveling on the Sea Train, and Zoro sat down, closed his eyes and basically said "Let's let whatever happens happen."

On the other hand, every time the ship needs to go somewhere, Nami is the one who gives the orders. Storm approaching? Nami gives the orders. Need to change direction? Nami gives the orders.

There's also the fact that Sanji has taken a leadership role before. The Strawhats don't have first mates and right hand men. The hierarchy is Luffy--->Everyone else, and even then, Luffy doesn't see himself as so much above the rest, it doesn't go to his head. Every Strawhat has an equal say in what they do, all of them have a voice on board the ship unless it's something like the moments where Luffy decides to go to an island. For example, in this very arc, Franky was the one who spoke up on helping the Tontottas. Luffy wasn't going to at first, but he listened to Franky, and made the decision to. If anyone thinks Luffy's crew is the type to have a first mate, you either haven't been paying attention to the dynamic Oda has established, or you wish for him to backtrack it just for Zoro, which is just an amazing level of fanboying.

Or you are simply do not like Zoro being the first mate?

Roger and Luffy are pretty much the same as far as how they are as pirates. But guess what, Rayleigh was Roger's first mate.

Everybody has been paying attention to the dynamic. But there is 1 issue, you have not. Luffy LETS Sanji/Usopp/Nami/Robin/Franky do the orders and etc. However, when it comes to important decisions none of them have a say over him. Zoro and luffy pretty much don't do anything relating to "orders", unless they have to. Rayleigh THE FIRST MATE of roger seems to be the same as Zoro. I believe you are confusing them relaxing and staying back and letting others take charge with them not being the leaders.

Naruto example: Hashirama LET Tobirama do the talking and so on.. that doesn't mean Tobirama was the leader or the "actual hokage" behind Hashirama.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Lol thats not leadership, he did it out of rage because he was trying to keep them friends.

At that time, everyone but Zoro kept his cool. Zoro only got ticked off when he felt that they were letting the crew become a game where people could leave and comeback as they please.


Or you are simply do not like Zoro being the first mate?

Roger and Luffy are pretty much the same as far as how they are as pirates. But guess what, Rayleigh was Roger's first mate.

Everybody has been paying attention to the dynamic. But there is 1 issue, you have not. Luffy LETS Sanji/Usopp/Nami/Robin/Franky do the orders and etc. However, when it comes to important decisions none of them have a say over him. Zoro and luffy pretty much don't do anything relating to "orders", unless they have to. Rayleigh THE FIRST MATE of roger seems to be the same as Zoro. I believe you are confusing them relaxing and staying back and letting others take charge with them not being the leaders.

Naruto example: Hashirama LET Tobirama do the talking and so on.. that doesn't mean Tobirama was the leader or the "actual hokage" behind Hashirama.

Do the Strawhats have to be identical to the Roger Pirates?

So Oda and/or his staff saying Zoro is considered similar to (and therefore isn't) a vice captain means absolutely nothing? It's never been confirmed that Rayleigh was a first-mate, he's been remarked as such, this doesn't mean he was. and yet so has Zoro (by Bartolomeo), whom evidently isn't one based on what Oda and his staff has said.

That example doesn't work. Tobirama was the Hokage after Hashirama... what were you trying to prove?

 

[Bogard]

Nami has no authority in the crew even as a navigator. She only do her job, something the captain can't do, she advices about the danger of the sea and other things like that, but she'd never be allowed to go somewhere with the ship without Luffy's decision. She admitted herself even lately that whether she should go to zou or not depends entirely on Luffy's decision. I don't know where this crap where Nami has any type of authority in the crew comes from

 

[Punk Hazard]

Lol thats not leadership, he did it out of rage because he was trying to keep them friends.

At that time, everyone but Zoro kept his cool. Zoro only got ticked off when he felt that they were letting the crew become a game where people could leave and comeback as they please.


Or you are simply do not like Zoro being the first mate?

Roger and Luffy are pretty much the same as far as how they are as pirates. But guess what, Rayleigh was Roger's first mate.

Everybody has been paying attention to the dynamic. But there is 1 issue, you have not. Luffy LETS Sanji/Usopp/Nami/Robin/Franky do the orders and etc. However, when it comes to important decisions none of them have a say over him. Zoro and luffy pretty much don't do anything relating to "orders", unless they have to. Rayleigh THE FIRST MATE of roger seems to be the same as Zoro. I believe you are confusing them relaxing and staying back and letting others take charge with them not being the leaders.

Naruto example: Hashirama LET Tobirama do the talking and so on.. that doesn't mean Tobirama was the leader or the "actual hokage" behind Hashirama.

I actually would dislike if Zoro became the first mate. Not because I dislike Zoro, I actually enjoy Zoro's character and really like his scenes. I'd dislike it if anyone at all became the first mate because that would be Oda ruining a certain dynamic that he set up and cemented in Enel's Lobby. "You do what I can't do, and I do what you can't do." The Strawhats don't have a hierarchy beyond Luffy's say is final say. They're like a machine, with each person having their capabilities and incapabilities, and someone's former fills in for someone else's latter. Luffy also isn't the type of person to rank his friends in any way.

No, they aren't the same. Roger was stated to never run from a fight, and lets his crew escape while fighting on his own. Luffy has run from fights multiple times before. For example, against the Pacifista, it was Luffy's idea to run away. Roger and Luffy have their parallels, but they are not the same person. Just because Roger did something doesn't mean Luffy will too. Another example is that Luffy holds grudges, while Roger never held a grudge against Garp. Want another example? When Law asked Luffy if he wanted to make an alliance, Luffy agreed almost immediately. Roger flat out denied Shiki's offer of alliance with just as much speed.

Except Zoro isn't the leader of anything? Zoro has never taken a role of leadership within the crew. When Sanji told Luffy he has to ask him permission to fire back at Big Mom, Luffy's reaction was "What? Permission?" Luffy had no expectation of Sanji asking him for permission, he doesn't even enforce his own status as captain fully, what indicates he'd enforce ranks among his friends?

When Usopp said he's vice-captain, Luffy literally went "Yeah whatever" and started a different conversation. Luffy doesn't care about nor does he acknowledge the concept of "vice-captains" and first mates in his crew.

Nami has no authority in the crew even as a navigator. She only do her job, something the captain can't do, she advices about the danger of the sea and other things like that, but she'd never be allowed to go somewhere with the ship without Luffy's decision. She admitted herself even lately that whether she should go to zou or not depends entirely on Luffy's decision. I don't know where this crap where Nami has any type of authority in the crew comes from

Nami says a storm is coming and they need to go left, the ship goes left. Nami says they need to go 90 degrees to the West to avoid a tidal wave, the ship is going 90 degrees to the left. Nami says this part of the ship needs to be used to do this, it's done. We've seen Nami take charge when it comes time for navigation. This isn't to say she's the leader, but when Nami says what needs to be done, they don't look at Luffy waiting for an echo, they immediately go do it because that's the Strawhat dynamic. Everyone has their expertise, and when shit hits the fan, if their expertise is needed, what is said goes. Every Strawhat has some kind of authority aside from Zoro since he doesn't have an actual job and Robin.

 

[KingHashirama]

Luffy not enforcing "first mate" or etc has nothing to do with Zoro being first mate. Zoro will enforce Luffy being the captain if he needs to.

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^^^^^ In the above Zoro makes it clear he doesn't care when Luffy is joking around and etc, which is majority of the time.


He doesn't need to give orders to be the first mate either.. lol. Nami is the navigator she takes care of the navigation, Sanji takes care of the cooking, Chopper takes care of the doctor stuff, Robin has her studying, Usopp has his weapons and ship fixing with Franky.. and luffy (the captain) Zoro, Brook have nothing to do.

Then you have the usopp leaving incident, where everyone was yelling over usopp leaving.

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Do the Strawhats have to be identical to the Roger Pirates?

Thats a question for Oda, i'm simply telling you that Strawhats pirates are Roger pirates 2.0.

- Luffy (carefree guy) meets Zoro (swordsman/Badass in body toughness) first
- Roger (carefree guy) meets Rayleigh (swordsman/Badass in body toughness) first

So Oda and/or his staff saying Zoro is considered similar to (and therefore isn't) a vice captain means absolutely nothing? It's never been confirmed that Rayleigh was a first-mate, he's been remarked as such, this doesn't mean he was. and yet so has Zoro (by Bartolomeo), whom evidently isn't one based on what Oda and his staff has said.

"Dark king" = Rayleigh is not vice captain, and is not first mate (despite being the strongest in the crew, and the person who started the crew with roger)? what? lol.

"Similar to a vice-captain".. cool, that doesn't deny hes the first mate. What I don't get is how you can possible claim Sanji/Nami/Robin/Chopper/Usopp/Franky/Brook have more authority than Zoro in the crew.lol. A Pirate crew is made by 2 people, Luffy was the captain, while Zoro became the one under the captain. Due to his strength, and the fact he made the strawhats with luffy he is the first mate.

That example doesn't work. Tobirama was the Hokage after Hashirama... what were you trying to prove?

Your example doesn't work, mines does. Cause my example was about Hashirama letting Tobirama talk over him while he was Hokage. Did that mean they were equals? hell no.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Luffy not enforcing "first mate" or etc has nothing to do with Zoro being first mate. Zoro will enforce Luffy being the captain if he needs to.

Spoiler

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^^^^^ In the above Zoro makes it clear he doesn't care when Luffy is joking around and etc, which is majority of the time.


He doesn't need to give orders to be the first mate either.. lol. Nami is the navigator she takes care of the navigation, Sanji takes care of the cooking, Chopper takes care of the doctor stuff, Robin has her studying, Usopp has his weapons and ship fixing with Franky.. and luffy (the captain) Zoro, Brook have nothing to do.

Then you have the usopp leaving incident, where everyone was yelling over usopp leaving.

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Thats a question for Oda, i'm simply telling you that Strawhats pirates are Roger pirates 2.0.

- Luffy (carefree guy) meets Zoro (swordsman/Badass in body toughness) first
- Roger (carefree guy) meets Rayleigh (swordsman/Badass in body toughness) first


"Dark king" = Rayleigh is not vice captain, and is not first mate (despite being the strongest in the crew, and the person who started the crew with roger)? what? lol.

"Similar to a vice-captain".. cool, that doesn't deny hes the first mate. What I don't get is how you can possible claim Sanji/Nami/Robin/Chopper/Usopp/Franky/Brook have more authority than Zoro in the crew.lol. A Pirate crew is made by 2 people, Luffy was the captain, while Zoro became the one under the captain. Due to his strength, and the fact he made the strawhats with luffy he is the first mate.



Your example doesn't work, mines does. Cause my example was about Hashirama letting Tobirama talk over him while he was Hokage. Did that mean they were equals? hell no.

Judging by this post it's clear to see you're incapable of distinguishing similarity from actuality.

Real life example: Chocolate Oranges are like Oranges, but they're not Oranges. Substitute the Chocolate Orange with Rayleigh and Zoro and the Orange with First Mates

Both were called the first mate, but neither fulfil a significant role. Oda himself has said that Zoro is like a first mate but isn't a first mate. He's been given the role of "combatant", which means he doesn't have a role. The first mate is most likely Nami, considering how often she takes charge and the fact that the first colour spread of the Manga is of her (not Zoro) and Luffy.

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This only supports Rikers point about Nami, which I fully agree with

As a parallel, Nami, the navigator of the Strawhats and Bepo, the navigator of the Hearts are both considered to be closest to the captain

 

[Bogard]

Nami says a storm is coming and they need to go left, the ship goes left. Nami says they need to go 90 degrees to the West to avoid a tidal wave, the ship is going 90 degrees to the left. Nami says this part of the ship needs to be used to do this, it's done. We've seen Nami take charge when it comes time for navigation. This isn't to say she's the leader, but when Nami says what needs to be done, they don't look at Luffy waiting for an echo, they immediately go do it because that's the Strawhat dynamic. Everyone has their expertise, and when shit hits the fan, if their expertise is needed, what is said goes. Every Strawhat has some kind of authority aside from Zoro since he doesn't have an actual job and Robin.

Only because Luffy let her do a job he is totally incapable to do? If Luffy doesn't want to go 90degree to the west however, Nami can't do shit. She has no authority on board. If it was the case, she could go on Zou without asking Luffy's permission, but she can't, simply because Luffy is the authority, not her. Just because Luffy let her do her job and trust her decision doesn't mean she has any authority. If Luffy were to disagree for one reason or another, even as a navigator, she can't do shit

Remember me who made took charge of the preparations and departure of the sunny back in Ryugu palace? Certainly not Nami

 

[TheHokage]

Was it confirmed that Ben Beckman was the first to join Shanks crew? I know it's probably filler but wasn't it Yassop?

Anyway Shiliew is going to be killing Mihawk not Ben.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Was it confirmed that Ben Beckman was the first to join Shanks crew? I know it's probably filler but wasn't it Yassop?

Anyway Shiliew is going to be killing Mihawk not Ben.

It was Yasopp

Ben wouldn't even fight Mihawk. His captain is probably weaker than him.

Shiliew kills Mihawk --> Zoro kills Shiliew

 

[Punk Hazard]

Only because Luffy let her do a job he is totally incapable to do? If Luffy doesn't want to go 90degree to the west however, Nami can't do shit. She has no authority on board. If it was the case, she could go on Zou without asking Luffy's permission, but she can't, simply because Luffy is the authority, not her. Just because Luffy let her do her job and trust her decision doesn't mean she has any authority. If Luffy were to disagree for one reason or another, even as a navigator, she can't do shit

Remember me who made took charge of the preparations and departure of the sunny back in Ryugu palace? Certainly not Nami

That's the point! The Strawhats work by having people do what they can. If you can't do something, someone else will. That's why there's no first mate or hierarchy, none of the Strawhats are ranked superior to another because there's always gonna be something each Strawhat can't do that another can. A first mate isn't needed or even wanted by Luffy or any of the others, and doesn't even fit the dynamic of the crew. The only times a first mate or vice captain of the crew have been mentioned were:
1. By Urouge, a non-credible source who's seen ONE Strawhat at one point in the series
2. Bartolomeo, a fanboy who's moments are mostly gags
3. When Usopp said he's in charge if Luffy's gone and Luffy went "Sure, whatever" and dismissed the conversation immediately
4. When someone wrote in the databook Zoro is vice-captain-like, which means not the vice-captain, just similar to.

If a storm is coming, who do they turn to to figure out how to escape? If Nami tells Zoro to open the sail or lift the anchor to escape, which of these is he gonna do:
1. Say no and turn to Luffy for an echo on the order because Nami has no authority
2. Open the sail or lift the anchor without Luffy needing to tell him twice

Hint: It's the second one

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

That's the point! The Strawhats work by having people do what they can. If you can't do something, someone else will. That's why there's no first mate or hierarchy, none of the Strawhats are ranked superior to another because there's always gonna be something each Strawhat can't do that another can. A first mate isn't needed or even wanted by Luffy or any of the others, and doesn't even fit the dynamic of the crew. The only times a first mate or vice captain of the crew have been mentioned were:
1. By Urouge, a non-credible source who's seen ONE Strawhat at one point in the series
2. Bartolomeo, a fanboy who's moments are mostly gags
3. When Usopp said he's in charge if Luffy's gone and Luffy went "Sure, whatever" and dismissed the conversation immediately
4. When someone wrote in the databook Zoro is vice-captain-like, which means not the vice-captain, just similar to.

If a storm is coming, who do they turn to to figure out how to escape? If Nami tells Zoro to open the sail or lift the anchor to escape, which of these is he gonna do:
1. Say no and turn to Luffy for an echo on the order because Nami has no authority
2. Open the sail or lift the anchor without Luffy needing to tell him twice

Hint: It's not the second one

Has he just been REKT?

 

[ZoroXTashigi]

It was Yasopp

Ben wouldn't even fight Mihawk. His captain is probably weaker than him.

Shiliew kills Mihawk --> Zoro kills Shiliew

No .. it wasn't.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

No .. it wasn't.

Explains the empty boat Shanks is on when he meets Yasopp

 

[ZoroXTashigi]

Explains the empty boat Shanks is on when he meets Yasopp

I believe you miss the big ship before that tiny boat with Shanks on it.

 

[Bogard]

That's the point! The Strawhats work by having people do what they can. If you can't do something, someone else will. That's why there's no first mate or hierarchy, none of the Strawhats are ranked superior to another because there's always gonna be something each Strawhat can't do that another can. A first mate isn't needed or even wanted by Luffy or any of the others, and doesn't even fit the dynamic of the crew. The only times a first mate or vice captain of the crew have been mentioned were:
1. By Urouge, a non-credible source who's seen ONE Strawhat at one point in the series
2. Bartolomeo, a fanboy who's moments are mostly gags
3. When Usopp said he's in charge if Luffy's gone and Luffy went "Sure, whatever" and dismissed the conversation immediately
4. When someone wrote in the databook Zoro is vice-captain-like, which means not the vice-captain, just similar to.

If a storm is coming, who do they turn to to figure out how to escape? If Nami tells Zoro to open the sail or lift the anchor to escape, which of these is he gonna do:
1. Say no and turn to Luffy for an echo on the order because Nami has no authority
2. Open the sail or lift the anchor without Luffy needing to tell him twice

Hint: It's the second one

I don't even know why you're talking about this fistmate/vice-captain rubbish when i wasn't even talking about it. I was talking about whether or not Nami has any authority on board and my entire reply was only about that. I don't care about your discussion about strawhats hierarchy, first mate or the other rubbish you guys were discussing about

The question is

1- Does Nami have any authority on board?

My answer

2- No she doesn't. Regardless of her navigator role, she can't give any order in concerning the ship

So just stay on topic

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

I believe you miss the big ship before that tiny boat with Shanks on it.

What ship?

 

[ZoroXTashigi]

What ship?

This one...

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