Sasuke borrowed his power from the curse seal for a lot of the series. Sage mode is NOT a borrowed power, it's a SKILL. You're also saying Sasuke didn't borrow his powers from Itachi.
The scan means nothing since Zetsu used the word " I personally think " not I know naruto is better, what zetsu said and how he said it is like me saying I prefer Durant over LeBron which is just an opinion and not a fact as is what zetsu said.
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
For most of the manga sasuke had the upper hand,but they are relitivly equal now.
Its not like naruto chose to be the host of a biju. He had just as much control over that as sasuke did being born an uchiha. He was practically born a jinjuriki. He spent all of mabey 5 min as a normal person.
I prefer sasuke as a character and I find his abilitys cooler,but let's stop all this "who's better than who? Who has borrowed powers?"
Sasuke borrowed his power from the curse seal for a lot of the series. Sage mode is NOT a borrowed power, it's a SKILL. You're also saying Sasuke didn't borrow his powers from Itachi.
I hope you didn't ignore what drizzy posted
No I did not ignore what drizzy posted, and I feel as though the curse mark was more forced upon and more of a hindrance than it was an asset to sasuke at least until shippuden. Sage mode draws in natural "Energy from outside" therefore he is still borrowing nature energy, its not rightfully his own chakra/power.
Also that manga scan proves nothing, I don't want to get into the Naruto VS Pein debate as we all know that was "Plot" and Kurama won that fight. Just to refresh your memory.
1. Naruto had full intel for Katsuya
2. Naruto spend days training to prepare, and he had multiple sage transformation shadow clones on stand by that were summoned through a scroll to refresh his sage mode.
3. He showed up with an entire toad army on the battle field.
4. It was the "Leaf Village vs Pein" as everybody played a part in fighting pain, not just naruto.
5. Shinrei tensei was restricted at the start of the fight and we all know how that turned out soon as it returned lol
6. Like I said, Plot.
7. He TNJ pein at the end, so he didn't exactly "Beat anybody"
Zetsu stated "I think he might be stronger than sasuke" and to be honest what was the last fight zetsu witnessed? that's correct, a 3T sharingan sasuke who faught against itachi am I right? Zetsu did not witness the battle between Sasuke and Killer bee "Even though it wasn't much to go off of" But still, zetsu had no knowledge of sasuke MS powers. Now if zetsu would of made that statement after he witnessed an MS sasuke fight at the kage summit, and the sasuke who soloed danzou it would be a completely different story.
With that said I still believe SM J-Man > SM Naruto simply because J-man accomplished these feats and was able to take out 4 peins whilst;
1. NO intel, received the intel via fighting pein
2. Started off normal, and had to fight, and fend off pein whilst trying to enter sage mode
3. Managed to take out 4 peins in the process
Now switch scenarios naruto wouldn't of lasted a half of second :/ So the whole "Naruto beat Pein" come on, we all know better than that.
I still think that Naruto is stronger actually and always has been since the Zabuza/Haku arc.
1. On the topic of the VotE fight, we all know that it was needed for Sasuke to win in order for plot progression. Sasuke would have been stomped if Naruto summoned Gamabunta
2. Yes. And Oro stated that right before he got slapped around like a rag doll by Naruto
3. In the last scan he meant that he needed to harness it so that he wouldn't lose consciousness again and go out of control, which would result in Sasuke winning. He didn't mean that he needed it in order to beat Sasuke.
Also keep in mind that Naruto being stronger than Sasuke in pt1 is something Sasuke admitted and was one of the factors which caused him to leave Konoha. He couldn't stand the fact that he was not as strong as Naruto & that he was progressing so quickly, so he felt that if he went with Oro he would learn more justu and become stronger than he would in Konoha.
It is also very telling that Naruto himself is usually the only person to say that he's weaker than Sasuke. Whereas with Sasuke, others tell him and he cannot come to terms with it, like Zetsu/Obito told him right after the Pain invasion.
Kurama isn't "unlimited chakra", he however does grant Naruto 96x more chakra than the average person has though. Just because Naruto is good with chakra manipulation doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve it.
By the way on the topic of Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes, it did more than just stop his blindness. His chakra pool increased as well, his stamina improved, he now has the ability to spam techs, etc. Also, right before Itachi died, Obito stated that he transferred his MS techs to him through that forehead tap/fuinjutsu. By the way, when Oro gave Sasuke that CM, it helped him to become immune to poisons and this ability stayed even after Itachi removed it from him. That and Oro experimented on Sasuke's body during the timeskip and made him faster. Sasuke has actually received more powerups from a variety of sources than Naruto has. Naruto gets alot of powerups too, but he usually works to get them and they are pretty much the same thing, just more chakra from the tailed beasts. Sasuke only works after he receives his powerup in order to master them, but rarely works in order to get them like Naruto does.
Both shinobi work hard and are strong, but Naruto has clearly always been the stronger one of the two. Though Kishi has been trying to hide this fact, it'll just be blatantly obvious in the end once Naruto wins in their final fight, if they have one.
The most educated response I've seen in a while +1 rep bro. But I have to disagree on a couple points.
1. Sasuke was superior to naruto from the start, even kakashi was surprise that sasuke was able to produce a katon of such a large scale at his age.
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2. You said naruto was stronger at the zabuza fight? we both know that was far from true as sasuke was fighting haku 1v1 whilst covering for naruto and even ended up saving his life....
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3. I'm pretty sure nobody would of wanted to see the fight between Naruto vs Sasuke in a chunin exam final.... as it was obvious sasuke was in a league of his own at the time he faught Gaara.... his level of speed "Which he copied from rock lee" and having Chidori + Sharingan he would of murdered naruto low diff.
4. Also I think you misunderstood, you stated "Also keep in mind that Naruto being stronger than Sasuke in pt1 is something Sasuke admitted and was one of the factors which caused him to leave Konoha. He couldn't stand the fact that he was not as strong as Naruto & that he was progressing so quickly, so he felt that if he went with Oro he would learn more justu and become stronger than he would in Konoha."
Which we both know to be incorrect, you seem very intillegent and knowledgeable of this manga Chie... we both know sasuke reasons for leaving konoha. Sasuke had an unreachable goal, to kill itachi? and at the time he was actually delusional enough to think that he posseded enough power to beat him....
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Honestly, the poor fool thought he was powerful enough to beat itachi back then, he was comparing his strength to one of the most powerful people in the entire series and because of this, naruto achievements made sasuke feel like he was not getting any stronger which was also a delusion, and he did not realize that he was already far above anybody in konoha 11. Itachi put doubt in his head, your weak, you don't have enough hatred because of this.... Not to mention the curse mark grealty influencing the hatred in his heart for revenge, Gaara same thing, your weak because you don't have enough hatred etc...
These all play major factor in sasuke leaving the village to gain power, his goals was set to high, not because he felt "naruto was stronger than himself" It's just naruto "Plot Victories" that sasuke witnessed along with itachi's mind ****ing words had his head completely screwed. How do u honestly thing that Sasuke vs Gaara fight would of turned out after sasuke put a whole in him with chidori, and temari and kankuro didn't carry gaara severely injured ass off from miles, and miles, giving him time to recover? gaara was practically unconscious the whole way after that blow from sasuke. Because of plot, sasuke witness Gamabunta win the fight "Because sasuke was hard headed, forced a chidori and the curse mark rendered him paralyzed on the spot" this naruto coming to help him out. That thing called "Plot"
Either way, I still think at any point in time sasuke would of wiped the floor with naruto part 1 and obviously part 2 as regardless of anything Sasuke is up 2-0.
I thought these "borrowed power" arguments died out..It's also funny how you ended the comparison in strength between Naruto and Sasuke ended at the Sasuke and Sai Arc. I believe they're even. Actually, Naruto was stronger a few chapters back, Hagoromo probably just recently made them even.
Your first sentence is completely wrong since sasuke beat naruto twice since the zabuza/haku arc. So that defeats you thinking naruto was better since then.
1. You can say that but the truth is at that time naruto didn't have control of his chakra and prior to that he could only summon Bunta randomly when in dire trouble. Also naruto obtained that ability from training with one of the most powerful shinobi alive which was Jiraya, and at the time sasuke had Kakashi as a trainer and well at that time Jiraya >>>> Kakashi yet naruto still won so if this world was full of " ifs " we would all have everything we wanted ever in life.
2. Nope, Orochimaru toyed with naruto, the only actual time he felt threatened by 4 tails kyuubi naruto is when naruto used tbb and oro used triple rashomon to block it, other than that one occasion in that fight oro was playing around and he was extremely handicapped with having no use of his arms and having no ninjutsu because of this and his body going rejecting him making him go through extreme excruciating pain. By you saying he got slapped around like a rag doll is just you denying what actually happened and the facts that occurred in the fight.
3. Nope, that's not what he said. He clearly said he needed kurama's power, you are just denying the truth, and I understand you might like naruto over sasuke or just don't like sasuke because of all the **** riders he promotes I don't know but I do know is what was wriiten in the manga and it said naruto needs the kyuubi's power in order to beat sasuke.
Wrong sasuke never said naruto was stronger, he admitted naruto's steady progress whille he was basically standing still which again goes back to who was training them and naruto had the better master to learn from. Zetsu and Obito said naruto was slightly stronger but you have to understand that was before sasuke's clash with Killer Bee when sasuke had just gotten ms. Later when ms sasuke fought the Raikage he was clearly better than naruto. Their power ups were sm for naruto and ms for sasuke, naruto mastered sm before clashing with the 6 paths, sasuke didn't master ms before clashing with Killer Bee.
96times more chakra is damn near infinite in a battle between shinobi, fighting 1 individual naruto would never tire, he only got exhausted during the war for fighting multiple people and giving chakra away.
No itachi's eyes didn't do any of that. It seemed that way only because ms sasuke didn't spam techs why? because his he was going blind and everytime he used the ms techs every cell in his body would hurt as he stated during the clash with Mei. Itachi's eyes stopped the blindness and stopped the pain which allowed sasuke to be able to use the ms tech more often. Also sasuke had already great manipulation with his ms tech such as amatersu, he gave it shape controlled, when he clashed with the Raikage. In his fight with Kakashi he for a split instance achieve his final susano but due to exhaustion and blindness and pain he couldn't sustain it, this all happened prior to itachi's eyes so itachi's eyes didn't make any jutsu better.
Sasuke was blessed with a clan that damn near automatically excel in what ever they do and get techs seemingly automatic from their clans dojutsu, naruto and lee had no talent so they both had to work hard to get where they are but that in no way means sasuke didn't work hard, I admit his eyes made things easier for him but he still did things naruto wouldnt have been able to do. Like defeat oro's immortal transformation( Great White Serpent) and then defeat it in oro's on dimension and absorb oro, if naruot was in that situation he would have been taken over by oro.
The facts are sasuke 2-0 vs naruto. Another fact is sasuke was greater than naruto clear cut until naruto gaining bm and now its up for debate.
No, not really considering that Sasuke was taken out for a while by Haku's needles and then Naruto started beating Haku. Naruto looked superior even back then. Sasuke was better skill-wise, Naruto is better power-wise.
1.Not randomly. He summoned Gamabunta at will when he was facing Gaara. Btw, Naruto's best friend is a dire situation and that basically proved my point. Plot dictated that Sasuke win that fight in order for the story to progress. Yes, Sasuke did win and I would never deny that, however, that does not change the fact that at the time Naruto had an arsenal that would qualify him for beating Sasuke.
2. Did I ever deny the fact that Oro played around with Naruto? No, I did not. I know that he played with Naruto, Kurama had taken over Naruto to the point of 4 tails and Naruto had lost his senses. I'm aware of that. I'm just stating that Oro made that comment before actually having to deal with 4 tail Naruto.
3. Did Naruto say that he was too weak to defeat Sasuke and therefore needed Kurama's power to defeat him? No, he didn't. I'm not denying facts, just interpreting it in a different way. Btw, I don't dislike Sasuke, I'm neutral towards him. His fanbase is annoying, but they don't affect my opinion of him.
4. I stated that Sasuke never said that. I know that, but he has thought that Naruto is superior to him, even back in pt1 with the water towers after he saw that Naruto caused more damage than he did. Zetsu/Obito knew what they were talking about at that point. Bringing up the Killer Bee fight isn't the best thing to do here, especially when Sasuke nearly died twice in that fight, he had the help of 3 other people, and Bee trolled him.
5. Yeah, I'm aware that having 96x more chakra than the average person is alot. But the OP said it was unlimited, and I just stated that to show that it was an exagerration. Naruto isn't going to go on a 1v1 with someone for years now. It is alot of chakra, but that 96x will run out eventually.
6. No, it did. Due to stopping the blindness and pain, it improved his stamina. Also, when he first got Itachi's eyes, he said that he could feel more power flowing through him, which could possibly be indicating that his chakra pool increased.
7. I respect Sasuke and his abilities. I know he works hard, but to me he usually works hard after getting powerups, but not specifically to get them. He works hard after he gets them in order to master them. But then again, that's just my lack-luster analysis. U_U
And yes, just as Naruto wouldn't have been able to defeat sick oro in that dimension, Sasuke wouldn't have been able to defeat Pain at the point that he attacked the village.
2-0 isn't quite a fact. I could count the fight at the water towers as a win for Naruto or when Naruto managed to tie Sasuke up and pretend to be him early on in pt1. The only legit fight to me between these two is at the VotE in pt1, where Sasuke won. Then at the end of the series, they will have another where Naruto will probably win. Also, it hasn't always been clear-cut that Sasuke has been stronger than Naruto. Imo, Sasuke was stronger at the beginning of pt1, but then Naruto surpassed him. Then, Sasuke was stronger at the beginning of Shippuden, then Naruto surpassed him. During the war, Naruto has been showing Sasuke up and he surpassed him by an even greater margin once he revealed BSM. Now, he has new powers from the sage. Sasuke is going to have to get something even better than Naruto, in order to catch up. But as it stands now, Naruto has been stronger than Sasuke for a while now.
4. Also I think you misunderstood, you stated "Also keep in mind that Naruto being stronger than Sasuke in pt1 is something Sasuke admitted and was one of the factors which caused him to leave Konoha. He couldn't stand the fact that he was not as strong as Naruto & that he was progressing so quickly, so he felt that if he went with Oro he would learn more justu and become stronger than he would in Konoha."
No, I know that Itachi was the main reason Sasuke left Konoha. I realize that, Sasuke's life is nothing more than a quest for vengeance, that's his goal. I just meant that Naruto was one of the things that caused him to realize even more that he wasn't strong enough to defeat Itachi and therefore he felt that he wasn't getting the progression he needed in Konoha, so he decided to leave. I should have worded it entirely differently, so I apologize. U_U
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
Kurama is part of the equatio though, you can't just say without kurama. Naruto is one of the few with the ability to be a perfect jinchuuriki, he also has the ability to make friends with him. naruto wouldn't be a spowerful without him, but he still one of the few to even be able to use him. Actually I should say cooperate because use makes it seem derogatory.
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
wtf ))))) they both have borrowed powers you need to deal with it and stfu and don't hype your fav. charachter that he doesent have borrowed powers,k ?
sm=ms
BM>=EMS
BSM>EMS
right now they are equal but if you want to deny that than naruto>sasuke why ? because he still has the other 9 biju.
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
your whole argument was lost as soon as you said "borrowed power" everybody in this manga has borrowed power, everybody. all chakra in this manga is from the god tree. then your argument got even worst when you said that sage mode is borrowed power. sage mode is a technique that you have to learn how to use. that was a horrible example for you to use. sasuke's EMS is a borrowed power as he had to take his brothers eyes, and they do way more than just give you your eyesight back. they give you an increase in chakra, and better control of the MS jutsu's and also another jutsu. also sasuke has had the curse seal which is indeed given to him. so can we move past this whole borrowed power as it really a dumb argument, and not saying you are dumb, that needs to stop.
so moving on as we will take all the power they are able to wield as their power, naruto is stronger. naruto has been stronger ever since he learned sage mode. after he gained sage mode he was above MS sasuke. after that sasuke got EMS, but by that time naruto had already gotten KCM and BM. in the middle of fighting obito naruto had another boost by adding senjutsu to BM. that means ever since pain ark sasuke has been below naruto. now they have this new power, which we have yet to see what the limits of that actually are. but considering that they both received power from the sage, that i will say is equal in nature, but naruto also have the bijuu. that means even now naruto is still above sasuke. this is not bias in any way this is just what has happened in the manga, and is hard to refute.
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
If we're gonna talk about borrowed powers, then ALL shinobi have borrowed power. Kaguya stole the fruit from the tree, and stole Juubi's power, the ability to use chakra. Now that power is already borrowed.And the 'borrowed chakra' got passed down through generations making people think that's their own.
Now saying Naruto is not using his own power is false. The nature, and air is free for everyone. Makes sense right? He's using power surrounding, which is shared and available for every shinobi or villager. And Naruto trained for being able to use that power.
Then, I believe Naruto and Sasuke are equals. Once Sasuke is stronger, then Naruto. Sasuke, Naruto, Sasuke, Naruto... at the Land of Iron arc, Naruto stated clearly they are equals. If they fight, they'll both die. And while Naruto got Bijuu mode, Sasuke got EMS. Hagaromo has made them once again equal. And when Naruto and Sasuke combined Rasen Shuriken with Amaterasu, Tobirama stated it would be difficult even for a pro duo that trained years. It got proven many times that they are equals.
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
Borrowed?
In a broader context everything is borrowed from the juubi, Gai sensei could have solo'ed sasuke and Naruto together if it wasn't for the sage power up.
Naruto > Sasuke in the end, the main charecter would always be greater, at least feat wise.
Re: Clarification: I just don't understand how so many feel they are "EQUALS"?
I was about to say Naruto is more powerful but Sasuke is more skilled. . .Then I remembered Naruto's chakra "molding". . Giving everybody a cloak that takes skill.Naruto is more powerful and skilled,but Sasuke is the better "killer".
As the title stated, I simply don't understand why all of a sudden people feel sasuke and naruto are "EQUALS". I simply disagree entirely with this as sasuke has been superior to naruto the entire series. I would like to clarify a few points on why I personally feel they are not, and why I feel they will never be.
This is by no means a thread to start a flame war, so people please, keep your personal character attachments out of it and use common logic. =D
Now, hear me out if you guys will. The reason I feel they are not equals is because the entire series naruto has relied on a borrowed power from a completely different entity in itself, "Kurama". It's been obvious the entire series that naruto has needed the power of his "Bijuu" and the power of "Bijuu's" to compete with kekkai genkai level shinobi correct? AKA "The Sharingan" or "Sasuke" to be precise.
If It wasn't for the power of Kurama, naruto would of completely been beat, low difficulty by sasuke at the final valley as a 3T Sharigan sasuke was able to comfortably beat naruto under the influence of kurama chakra.
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It wasn't till kurama partially came out, and naruto temporally gained the ability to use chakra arms for the first time was he able to push sasuke into a corner forcing sasuke to use the curse mark.
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Getting into shippuden, Orochimaru admitted at one point....even using the power of his bijuu he still had a long way to go to catch up to sasuke in power.
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And we all know naruto has admitted on multiple occasions he was not as strong as sasuke was, and inevitably it resorted to this..
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Anyways, enough with the images.... so my question to my fellows naruto fans of NB...... can you truly call them equals? if my strength is inferior to another's, and I have to rely heavily on someone else's, or something else's power to put me on equal grounds to be able to fight this person does that really make us equal? I don't believe so, so how can people bluntly yell THEY ARE EQUALS !! No, they are not, and they have never been, never will be as long as naruto has borrowed power from other entity's.
But lets take a look into whats considered naruto true power that he worked his ass off for. Sage Modo: Now I will admit, naruto worked hard for sage mode. But what is sage mode? Sage mode is the result of drawing in nature energy inside oneself to create senjutsu correct? And I hate to go to this extinct but either way, he is still drawing in power "THAT IS NOT HIS OWN" Before you guys start yelling let me ask u this; How is naruto drawing in energy from outside to obtain sage mode any different from Goku using the spirit bomb in dragon ball z ? They are both drawing energy from outside, that is not their own, period.
Now I know what everybody's counter argument is going to be; "Sasuke has his brothers eye's" I'm not a hypocrite, I understand this. But unlike naruto, sasuke obtaining his brothers eyes only prevented him from being blind, and aloud him to continue fighting as a warrior honing "Abilities that he already had obtained through training, and continue to adapt, and make them more powerful" I mean honestly, it's not like after sasuke obtained his brothers eyes he was able to; give 100,000 people in a shinobi alliance a chakra cloak, 11 of which a BM cloak, Shoot multiple TBB's, fight for who knows how many days straight, get beat down, Coak off, cloak on, constantly pull chakra from an unlimited chakra demon monster aka "Kurama" right? lol.
To wrap things up, I personally feel the only reason kishi decided to state this whole "They will be equals in the end, and people came up with this delusion that they are equals" is because it simply doesn't make sense that on the path that things were going, sasuke being stronger than the main character just wouldn't sit right. So giving naruto a bijuu, and now the power of multiple bijuu's calling him the sage's successor and the one who will wield the power of all bijuu's to bring peace, balance, and tranquility to the shinobi world.... 'LOL star wars quote, Anakin Skywalker " Was kishi way of making them equal since sasuke has considerably been ahead.
In my honest opinion, that does not make them equals, and I don't feel they are. What are you guys thoughts?
Okey let's compare Sasukes archivements and powers with narutos:
Sasuke eyes: Bloodline not archived by hard training (infact Sharingan came from the jubi)
Sasuke curse mark: not archived, made by orochimaru
Raikiri: Archived
Taijutsu: Most of it stolen with Sharingan from lee
Katon: Uchiha ability
Tsukuyomi: from Itachi
Amaterasu: from Itachi
Chakramanipulation: from birth
Naruto bijou: Not archived, but he has to hold it back and can't use his full chakra (until he got friends with good old kurama)
Naruto sage mode: Archived with hard training, he surpassed all which came before him
Rasengan and all of it forms: Archived
Taijuts: not really strong but archived by himself
Kagebushin no jutsu: Archived by himself
Rasen shuriken: by himself
Naruto: Huge chakra, from Uzumaki
Chakramanipulation: mastered by training
Bijou forms: from kurama but trained to master it.
Summary:
Both have ability from birth and both got some ability from others.
But in my opinion Naruto is a greater shinobi, because of his burden and because he trained much harder as Sasuke to get there.
But hey you know I love both of them and they are both awesome, if they fight against each other I would say Naruto would win but really close.
Point made
And thank you for your effort to made your Point, it is great to see so passionate fans
))))) they both have borrowed powers you need to deal with it and stfu and don't hype your fav. charachter that he doesent have borrowed powers,k ?
