wanderingcactus
Active member
There are many of people across the world who view theories as facts. Many that pointed out theories as facts were turned on upon the revelations as the Part 2 went along. These theories were solid at first but as the story goes, many details about the world building were either retconned or suddenly took a different turn.
I would like to discuss the discrepancies derived from retcons or simply having the history based on present characters or the "Chicken before the Egg"
This is discussing as to why Hagoromo looks like Naruto (when Hagoromo's affinity is Yin and Naruto is Yang). As to why Uzumaki is connected to the Senju. Why there wasn't any Tenseigan or any other godlike techniques for Kaguya. Why the Hyugas lacked godlike level power ups despite being Otsutsuki.
In the beginning of Part 2, the story goes that Naruto ends with becoming the 2nd coming of Rikudou Sennin (basically the Jesus reincarnation story). This is the reason why there were many details pointing out that Naruto is connected to "Hagoromo" directly (obviously this is before Hagoromo's conception so I will put that in quotations from now on when discussing the Jesus). This started shifting around by the time the Uchiha brothers were starting to get developed.
This original plot will mean that Naruto MUST be DIRECTLY connected to the RS or "Hagoromo." We can see this as Nagato is also an Uzumaki. Meaning that the Uzumakis were the true "Otsutsuki" bloodline lineage. The Uchiha and Hyuga were just random Clans and not involved at all.
Developing Itachi and Sasuke's relationship started branching out throughout the series. This is true with Madara and Izuna and their dead 3rd sibling as well as Hashirama's dead sibling as well. Going further back into the story trying to connect the Uzumaki to the Senju, we were shown the brotherly bonds of their siblings and the fraternal relationship between Madara and Hashirama, reflecting Naruto and Sasuke. This sets up the whole fight between Naruto and Sasuke on equal grounds. Yet, not so equal when Naruto is supposedly the 2nd coming of "Hagoromo"
Thus the necessity of plotline 2:
In conclusion, if we take everything into consideration, we can surmise that the entire thing is in need of redoing much like Ikemoto's redo of the movie (albeit, only the last part).
We can add in the 6 Otsutsuki and make their prescense known. The drop the inconsistencies of design like Hagoromo looking like Naruto and Hamura looking like a chick when their affinities should be reverse. Hamura is either the yin and is dark in complexion and feminine and vice versa for Hagoromo or Hagoromo should be looking like the model and Hamura the lumberjack.
Kaguya final form should look like Ikemoto's design. A bit demonic but elegant with mix of black and white. Equipped with Tenseigan on top of it.
Indra and Asura transmigrant ending in Madara since he attained the higher level.
Naruto is NOT Asura's transmigrant but rather Hamura's and Sasuke is Hagoromo's. Or instead of transmigrant, they just appear like guidance counselors like the relationship of a Jin to their Tailed Beasts.
Hyugas developing more ocular techniques and show that Senju having regular or base techniques.
The Uchiha have their Sharingan and Mangekyu
The Hyuga have their Byakugan but "pending" Jougan
The Uzumaki have their sealing tech and Chakra Mode
The Senju just have Sage Mode (no, im counting Tsunade's as bargain discount Sage Mode)
Ninshuu being a lost art is ok and ninjutsu is what won on Earth. (I think that clip of the entire branch family next to the Tenseigan Orb could be argued connected to it via ninshu).
The Moon should also be involved from time to time. We know that the branch family were dropping down on Earth. Specifically Toneri and his dad to stalk Hinata.
So more information about that and perhaps that is where the Senju and Uzumaki took refuge to and why the Senju "disappeared" all of a sudden (because we know what happened to the Uzumaki).
Kinshiki and Urashiki should do stuff than just play around with glowing weapon or fishing rod? (is that really the original design for Urashiki? I know he is based on a fisherman)
But they should showcase more about Yang stuff. Everything is too focused on the Yin (ocular powers).
I would like to discuss the discrepancies derived from retcons or simply having the history based on present characters or the "Chicken before the Egg"
This is discussing as to why Hagoromo looks like Naruto (when Hagoromo's affinity is Yin and Naruto is Yang). As to why Uzumaki is connected to the Senju. Why there wasn't any Tenseigan or any other godlike techniques for Kaguya. Why the Hyugas lacked godlike level power ups despite being Otsutsuki.
In the beginning of Part 2, the story goes that Naruto ends with becoming the 2nd coming of Rikudou Sennin (basically the Jesus reincarnation story). This is the reason why there were many details pointing out that Naruto is connected to "Hagoromo" directly (obviously this is before Hagoromo's conception so I will put that in quotations from now on when discussing the Jesus). This started shifting around by the time the Uchiha brothers were starting to get developed.
Plot was that Naruto saves the world from the calamity that is Pain. This Pein or Nagato is a world ender and Naruto will finally break the mold and mature into the god that he is. This is typical in the shonen story. Much like how the power of friendship and love is behind that power.
So in conjecture to that is either Sasuke will be his friend that will stand by him (along side the rest of Team 7) and get a resolution and everyone is happy OR that Naruto beats Nagato and becomes "Hagoromo" 2nd coming only to challenge Sasuke yet again and winning him over this time around.
So in conjecture to that is either Sasuke will be his friend that will stand by him (along side the rest of Team 7) and get a resolution and everyone is happy OR that Naruto beats Nagato and becomes "Hagoromo" 2nd coming only to challenge Sasuke yet again and winning him over this time around.
This original plot will mean that Naruto MUST be DIRECTLY connected to the RS or "Hagoromo." We can see this as Nagato is also an Uzumaki. Meaning that the Uzumakis were the true "Otsutsuki" bloodline lineage. The Uchiha and Hyuga were just random Clans and not involved at all.
When developing the storyline of the 2 brothers: Sasuke and Itachi, Kishi seem to have developed an obsession to keep that bond present EVERYWHERE. So it extended further. Connecting Sasuke to the final showdown with Jesus Naruto, he has to be elevated into also a godlike level: Nagato's level. With the 2 brothers symbolisms, Kishi began tying the 2 together. Creating a bond that isn't JUST friendship but also from kinship.
As we already know from Part 1, the hokage and the founding lore of the village were already established. Tsunade is already a known Senju and the Senju clan is considered godlike. So the Uzumaki clan had to have been tied to the Senju or the other way around. The Senju is tied to the Uzumaki.
Which present us with the "fact," as some people say it, that Uzumaki is Senju branch (this isn't explicitly said but rather IMPLIED). The only one that is directly tied to the Senju via blood is Nagato as it is revealed that he is part Senju while being an Uzumaki (in terms of close relation). Yes, I know they are blood related. You're nitpicking since Uchiha and Hyuga are too but they aren't considered "Senju branch" now, are they?
As we already know from Part 1, the hokage and the founding lore of the village were already established. Tsunade is already a known Senju and the Senju clan is considered godlike. So the Uzumaki clan had to have been tied to the Senju or the other way around. The Senju is tied to the Uzumaki.
Which present us with the "fact," as some people say it, that Uzumaki is Senju branch (this isn't explicitly said but rather IMPLIED). The only one that is directly tied to the Senju via blood is Nagato as it is revealed that he is part Senju while being an Uzumaki (in terms of close relation). Yes, I know they are blood related. You're nitpicking since Uchiha and Hyuga are too but they aren't considered "Senju branch" now, are they?
Developing Itachi and Sasuke's relationship started branching out throughout the series. This is true with Madara and Izuna and their dead 3rd sibling as well as Hashirama's dead sibling as well. Going further back into the story trying to connect the Uzumaki to the Senju, we were shown the brotherly bonds of their siblings and the fraternal relationship between Madara and Hashirama, reflecting Naruto and Sasuke. This sets up the whole fight between Naruto and Sasuke on equal grounds. Yet, not so equal when Naruto is supposedly the 2nd coming of "Hagoromo"
This plot is imparting from the original 2nd coming reincarnator of "Hagoromo" and completely becoming a separate thing. The Uzumaki is no longer DIRECTLY tied to the Senju but is related to them. Everything started to revolve around Sasuke's and Itachi's relationship or Naruto's and Sasuke's relationship. Since they established the characteristics of "Hagoromo" Kishi had no choice but to keep it. Hagoromo being an ocular user must be the older brother and a Yin affinity character. However, his design is basically Naruto with 2 Rinnegan. Nagato is closer to the look as he is more feminine looking (a Yin trait).
Thus the necessity of plotline 2:
Having "Hagoromo" will no longer work as it needs an antithesis. Nagato vs Naruto worked because it is a fight between the title on who is the 2nd coming child, a "Hagoromo 2.0". However, with Naruto and Sasuke showdown still being the end goal, you would need a devil to fight a god. So either Sasuke gets to be at the level of a devil/god or Naruto isn't god or rather "Hagoromo" isn't the only god around. This brings us to the duality symbolism.
Thus introducing the Otsutsuki family. You get, not 1, but 2 Rikudou Sennins! Hagoromo and Hamura being twin brothers. Since the whole brothers symbol is now running rampant, these 2 will be the cause of it. (chicken before the egg: Hagoromo and Hamura is based on Itachi and Sasuke much like how Madara and Izuna is based on Itachi and Sasuke).
This takes care of the Naruto and Sasuke showdown but what about now that there are 2 RS instead of 1? What was the point of the Nagato vs Naruto? It just means that Nagato is just one of those 1-dimensional villains rather than a multi-layered misunderstood hero.
Since there was a need to tie the Uchiha to the Senju, how about Hagoromo's kids? He's bound to have kids since he supposedly has a reincarnator. Enter Indra and Asura. This would explain about the godlike ocular powers of the Uchiha and godlike enhancement powers of Senju/Uzumaki.
Thus introducing the Otsutsuki family. You get, not 1, but 2 Rikudou Sennins! Hagoromo and Hamura being twin brothers. Since the whole brothers symbol is now running rampant, these 2 will be the cause of it. (chicken before the egg: Hagoromo and Hamura is based on Itachi and Sasuke much like how Madara and Izuna is based on Itachi and Sasuke).
This takes care of the Naruto and Sasuke showdown but what about now that there are 2 RS instead of 1? What was the point of the Nagato vs Naruto? It just means that Nagato is just one of those 1-dimensional villains rather than a multi-layered misunderstood hero.
Since there was a need to tie the Uchiha to the Senju, how about Hagoromo's kids? He's bound to have kids since he supposedly has a reincarnator. Enter Indra and Asura. This would explain about the godlike ocular powers of the Uchiha and godlike enhancement powers of Senju/Uzumaki.
Note that we are completely ignoring Hamura. This is a staple of Kishimoto. We've seen this is Part 1 how the Hyugas were suddenly hyped up more than the other clans (which is fair at the time since they are the best clan in Konoha during the world building). Then got dropped as if they were just a fodder clan and the Uchiha were truly the ones that are the best clan. Till the Uzumaki came about with their godlike sealing techniques. Then the Senju but "something" happened to the family and it was all because Tsunade didn't want to have another relationship. IDK. That's my fanfic for it. Tsunade probably pulled an Itachi for because her hubby died or something.
There are many theories about the Uchiha and Senju. This one I disagree with but could somewhat be plausible. Because of the state of affairs with Kishi flipping the script, the major hole is how exactly Naruto fits in it.
One answer to this is following the plot's logic. No Senju = transfer to the closest affinity user, which ended up being Naruto.
But in this theory, it was that the Senju are NOT related to Asura but rather a clan that is a devote follower of him. Asura being able to use ninshuu (connecting through chakra) and having picked as the head of the religion of the same name. He should have plenty of followers. This technique is then passed on along the leaders of the religion.
This could explain as to why Naruto be able to do Senju stuff and that was due to the power not being restricted to bloodlines but techniques. This is similar to the principle of learning Sage Mode and Minato being able to use Uzumaki techniques. Meaning that the Yang is not really about from within (like bloodlines and stuff).
The premise of this theory is due to the fact that there are many who are able to use the Sage Mode and 1 unrelated to the Uzumaki (Minato) being able to use Chakra Mode. 2 if you count Toneri not being Uzumaki or the Uzumaki is on Hagoromo's side instead of Hamura's.
One answer to this is following the plot's logic. No Senju = transfer to the closest affinity user, which ended up being Naruto.
But in this theory, it was that the Senju are NOT related to Asura but rather a clan that is a devote follower of him. Asura being able to use ninshuu (connecting through chakra) and having picked as the head of the religion of the same name. He should have plenty of followers. This technique is then passed on along the leaders of the religion.
This could explain as to why Naruto be able to do Senju stuff and that was due to the power not being restricted to bloodlines but techniques. This is similar to the principle of learning Sage Mode and Minato being able to use Uzumaki techniques. Meaning that the Yang is not really about from within (like bloodlines and stuff).
The premise of this theory is due to the fact that there are many who are able to use the Sage Mode and 1 unrelated to the Uzumaki (Minato) being able to use Chakra Mode. 2 if you count Toneri not being Uzumaki or the Uzumaki is on Hagoromo's side instead of Hamura's.
The most disappointing thing about the entire ordeal is the inclusion of Hamura. While this has been addressed in The Last and Boruto movies, there are only things they can do in 20 mins to give the viewers more details about the Otsutsukis.
I say 20 mins because the rest of the movies are setting things up. Thankfully they did not do a lot of expositions because that would make me hate the movies more but because they lacked expositions, they only revealed info based on feats.
Such as Toneri is being a carbon copy of Naruto HEAVILY HINTS that the branch Otsutsuki family is the true Uzumaki lineage. The movie also confirms that the Hyuga is indeed from the moon (yeah, I know. You have to pay extra attention about that 1 min clip to get that). Meaning that if the Hyuga being closely watched by the branch family, there were other moon people that settled in on Earth aside from the Hyuga.
Everything about the side of Hamura is just the reverse of Hagoromo's side. The point of conflict being Gedo Mazou instead of the Juubi. The most powerful clan being the branch instead of the main. The person that manifested into a RS level being is from the branch instead of the main (stealing the eye instead of taking a chunk of the body).
We were shown a few bits of the Tenseigan powers. Toneri exhibited some of them but is not at the final stable stage (should look like the Tenseigan Orb than that blue swirly thing that Toneri had). It also was capable of taking in the sun's power (I get it. They're like superman and Uzumaki Chakra Cloak is just Super Saiyan)
Kaguya did not exhibit any of this despite the fact that she is the OG. She is not only 3-eyed but had the God Tree absorbed as well. Not only did she not use any Rinnegan tech outside of IT, she did not use any Tenseigan tech or her own RSM technique. Just teleported everyone to different planets.
Perhaps the bone attack is her own unique RSM technique (which is basically just white chakra rods, let's be honest).
"But the god vacuum palm" really? That's not any better than changing blue chakra to purple after getting Hamura's RS powerup for the Twin Tiger Fists.
Honestly, I would make a pass about that because you can argue that the branch is better than the main in Hamura's side but Kaguya had no excuse since she's a transcendant being.
Sakura managed to hit her (I get it, it's just plot) but still. Make it less likely for her to be there. At least Kakashi had Juubito's RS chakra.
Lastly, Kishimoto's transcended design of Momoshiki. He was demonic in design. These were present throughout the series and basically ties in the Dead Demon Seal person into it as well. However, how is it that Kaguya remained in her nondemonic form despite the fact that she transcended? It is also noted that when she ate the chakra fruit, she no longer was the rabbit princess but rather a demonic creature. So how come the only reminiscent of that was when she bloated?
I say 20 mins because the rest of the movies are setting things up. Thankfully they did not do a lot of expositions because that would make me hate the movies more but because they lacked expositions, they only revealed info based on feats.
Such as Toneri is being a carbon copy of Naruto HEAVILY HINTS that the branch Otsutsuki family is the true Uzumaki lineage. The movie also confirms that the Hyuga is indeed from the moon (yeah, I know. You have to pay extra attention about that 1 min clip to get that). Meaning that if the Hyuga being closely watched by the branch family, there were other moon people that settled in on Earth aside from the Hyuga.
Everything about the side of Hamura is just the reverse of Hagoromo's side. The point of conflict being Gedo Mazou instead of the Juubi. The most powerful clan being the branch instead of the main. The person that manifested into a RS level being is from the branch instead of the main (stealing the eye instead of taking a chunk of the body).
We were shown a few bits of the Tenseigan powers. Toneri exhibited some of them but is not at the final stable stage (should look like the Tenseigan Orb than that blue swirly thing that Toneri had). It also was capable of taking in the sun's power (I get it. They're like superman and Uzumaki Chakra Cloak is just Super Saiyan)
Kaguya did not exhibit any of this despite the fact that she is the OG. She is not only 3-eyed but had the God Tree absorbed as well. Not only did she not use any Rinnegan tech outside of IT, she did not use any Tenseigan tech or her own RSM technique. Just teleported everyone to different planets.
Perhaps the bone attack is her own unique RSM technique (which is basically just white chakra rods, let's be honest).
"But the god vacuum palm" really? That's not any better than changing blue chakra to purple after getting Hamura's RS powerup for the Twin Tiger Fists.
Honestly, I would make a pass about that because you can argue that the branch is better than the main in Hamura's side but Kaguya had no excuse since she's a transcendant being.
Sakura managed to hit her (I get it, it's just plot) but still. Make it less likely for her to be there. At least Kakashi had Juubito's RS chakra.
Lastly, Kishimoto's transcended design of Momoshiki. He was demonic in design. These were present throughout the series and basically ties in the Dead Demon Seal person into it as well. However, how is it that Kaguya remained in her nondemonic form despite the fact that she transcended? It is also noted that when she ate the chakra fruit, she no longer was the rabbit princess but rather a demonic creature. So how come the only reminiscent of that was when she bloated?
I think we can all agree that we liked Ikemoto's rendition of the transcendant being. It is far more appealing and definitely more in line with the duality symbolism.
As for his "retcon" or addition at the end, it was well put. It was not that intrusive and was based on what was already established: Curse Mark/Black Zetsu.
The thing about Kishi's design is to bring in the Japanese folklore of oni (ogre or demons, whichever one you pick). This is basically what he was going after.
As for his "retcon" or addition at the end, it was well put. It was not that intrusive and was based on what was already established: Curse Mark/Black Zetsu.
The thing about Kishi's design is to bring in the Japanese folklore of oni (ogre or demons, whichever one you pick). This is basically what he was going after.
In conclusion, if we take everything into consideration, we can surmise that the entire thing is in need of redoing much like Ikemoto's redo of the movie (albeit, only the last part).
We can add in the 6 Otsutsuki and make their prescense known. The drop the inconsistencies of design like Hagoromo looking like Naruto and Hamura looking like a chick when their affinities should be reverse. Hamura is either the yin and is dark in complexion and feminine and vice versa for Hagoromo or Hagoromo should be looking like the model and Hamura the lumberjack.
Kaguya final form should look like Ikemoto's design. A bit demonic but elegant with mix of black and white. Equipped with Tenseigan on top of it.
Indra and Asura transmigrant ending in Madara since he attained the higher level.
Naruto is NOT Asura's transmigrant but rather Hamura's and Sasuke is Hagoromo's. Or instead of transmigrant, they just appear like guidance counselors like the relationship of a Jin to their Tailed Beasts.
Hyugas developing more ocular techniques and show that Senju having regular or base techniques.
The Uchiha have their Sharingan and Mangekyu
The Hyuga have their Byakugan but "pending" Jougan
The Uzumaki have their sealing tech and Chakra Mode
The Senju just have Sage Mode (no, im counting Tsunade's as bargain discount Sage Mode)
Ninshuu being a lost art is ok and ninjutsu is what won on Earth. (I think that clip of the entire branch family next to the Tenseigan Orb could be argued connected to it via ninshu).
The Moon should also be involved from time to time. We know that the branch family were dropping down on Earth. Specifically Toneri and his dad to stalk Hinata.
So more information about that and perhaps that is where the Senju and Uzumaki took refuge to and why the Senju "disappeared" all of a sudden (because we know what happened to the Uzumaki).
Kinshiki and Urashiki should do stuff than just play around with glowing weapon or fishing rod? (is that really the original design for Urashiki? I know he is based on a fisherman)
But they should showcase more about Yang stuff. Everything is too focused on the Yin (ocular powers).
