[Debate] Cell Mitosis + Death + Consciousness

[valandil988]

Death + Consciousness

Just a little idea I had a while back about death and how our consciousness actually exists.


Okay there is this concept in science called entropy basically its a law where by all systems eventually evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. IE any structure or information that might have existed within that system totally erodes.

I took this idea and decided to apply it to the human consciousness. Cells copy themselves essentially for example the hands that I have today are essentially clones of the original hands I had more than two decades ago. Ok so the brain doesn't undergo cell mitosis but it must still replace chemicals and elements over time?

This process accumulates errors over time, the copying method while efficient is subject to entropy just as any system is without outside stimuli being introduced.

This means that EVERY chemical within the human body is recycled and copied over time. This means our memories, neurons AND consciousness are recycled. The copy is as we already know imperfect it accumulates errors.

---------------------------------

Have you ever listened to an old piece of music you haven't listen too in ages? Does it give you a....particular "feeling" almost like an echo? Its not nostalgia I'm talking about, when I feel it its like experiencing the past "taste" of my own consciousness its like remembering how I used to be. This feeling is like remembering my past consciousness and how it felt....for lack of a better description.

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The punch line to this idea is that our own consciousness as it is currently is purely temporary. Soon it will be copied and a new iteration of our selves will be replicated. We are a long line of living clones which plugs into the memories compiled by our previous selves.

So in a way we are dying all the time, our previous versions of our consciousness are in a way "dying" and being replaced by new chemicals and materials carrying copied information. Yes it is our "info" but its still a newly written file.

We define ourselves as a static existence when in fact we are beings constantly in flux. That means that I am no more my 15 year old self than I am my 30 year old self. Both of these people are different from me not just because of memories and experience but because the consciousness itself is unique at any given time.

Note: There is no real way to track the different "iterations" of ourselves the transition does not happen all at once and is a very gradual event happening over months.


Bull just found that its probably wrong nvm

 

[Joon]

So the mind dies, can we still retain information from the body and rebuild again?

 

[valandil988]

So the mind dies, can we still retain information from the body?

Nah I'm wrong looked it up. I don't think the chemicals making up the structures of our brain neurons or memories are recycled. Unless a biologist is around here which can help. As you can see I'm not a biologist.

 

[Joon]

Nah I'm wrong looked it up. I don't think the chemicals making up the structures of our brain neurons or memories are recycled. Unless a biologist is around here which can help. As you can see I'm not biologist.

I'm not too familiar with what you are saying, but I'll research it as it sounds interesting.

 

[Tennis Robot]

Where does death tie into this?

 

[valandil988]

I'm not too familiar with what you are saying, but I'll research it as it sounds interesting.

For example I assumed that the cells in the brain divide, this is untrue. However I'm not sure if the brain retains chemicals and molecules indefinitely it seems unlikely. So it means that we might be "clones" of a sort.

 

[The Western Wheel]

Yes we die all the time. However... some cells do not replace and clone themselves. Some area's in the brain you will retain for the rest of your life. The stomach replaces the fastest by far. 4 days.

Other than that you are mostly right.

 

[fiend]

As per Atkinson–Shiffrin model of memory there are three types:-
1.Sensory
2. Short Term
3. Long Term

Sensory- Due to any external stimuli
Short term- holding a small amount of information in mind in an active, readily available state for a short period of time.
Long Term- Indefinite storage of the memory as chemicals in brain.

Memory storage process involve:-
Encoding-Ability to store and recall memory
Consolidation and re-consolidation:- Conversion of STM-LTM and it's consolidation, hippocampus is involved and processes like Long-term potentiation are involved (i.e. enhancement of interaction, between 2 neurons)

The point in question is Long Term memory, long term memory is dependent on protein synthesis in various cellular bodies, on triggering of an external/ internal/ genetic factors, it is stored indefinitely and can be recalled by various ways/ triggers an example given by you Music, a piece you heard long time a go and was stored in your brain as an episodic memory, listening to it again after some time triggered that episode which gave the nostalgia factor.

So in short Long Term memory is stored in human mind indefinitely, while ST is for a few seconds which through repetitiveness or association to a strong external stimuli can get stored for a long time and can be recalled easily.

Consciousness and memory are two completely different concepts and are independent of each other. As for the storage of memory is concerned a memory which becomes LT is stored indefinitely.

As far as human neurons are concerned once differentiated in natal form they loose their power of division, they are somatic and don't multiply, new studies/ experiments are working on inducing the power of division in certain types of neuron but they are yet in their infancy.

In fact the whole topic of memory is not yet clearly understood. What I tried to explain is a very crude and brief explanation of memory which is an extremely complicated/ complex topic, so there might be some mistakes in my explanation.

 

[valandil988]

As per Atkinson–Shiffrin model of memory there are three types:-
1.Sensory
2. Short Term
3. Long Term

Sensory- Due to any external stimuli
Short term- holding a small amount of information in mind in an active, readily available state for a short period of time.
Long Term- Indefinite storage of the memory as chemicals in brain.

Memory storage process involve:-
Encoding-Ability to store and recall memory
Consolidation and re-consolidation:- Conversion of STM-LTM and it's consolidation, hippocampus is involved and processes like Long-term potentiation are involved (i.e. enhancement of interaction, between 2 neurons)

The point in question is Long Term memory, long term memory is dependent on protein synthesis in various cellular bodies, on triggering of an external/ internal/ genetic factors, it is stored indefinitely and can be recalled by various ways/ triggers an example given by you Music, a piece you heard long time a go and was stored in your brain as an episodic memory, listening to it again after some time triggered that episode which gave the nostalgia factor.

So in short Long Term memory is stored in human mind indefinitely, while ST is for a few seconds which through repetitiveness or association to a strong external stimuli can get stored for a long time and can be recalled easily.

Consciousness and memory are two completely different concepts and are independent of each other. As for the storage of memory is concerned a memory which becomes LT is stored indefinitely.

As far as human neurons are concerned once differentiated in natal form they loose their power of division, they are somatic and don't multiply, new studies/ experiments are working on inducing the power of division in certain types of neuron but they are yet in their infancy.

In fact the whole topic of memory is not yet clearly understood. What I tried to explain is a very crude and brief explanation of memory which is an extremely complicated/ complex topic, so there might be some mistakes in my explanation.

I'm aware (now) lol after I made the post I looked it up (Yes I know dumb eh).

However you didn't address the point of whether or not Neuron or Memory materials are replaced, IE are they static creations that work until the break or are the recycled chemically? By that I mean are the atoms and molecules that make up their structure periodically replaced? I find it very hard to believe that they are static fixtures...it seems so fragile meaning little to no room for repair. It seems like a massive oversight in the design of this mechanism.

Are there any methods in the brain to repair damaged memories for example? Or is a situation where by if its broken there is no back up process.

If they are recycled chemically the idea I had still applies.

Also I find it extremely odd that a memory can store from what I can guess is a consciousness imprint that can almost overwrite my current consciousness for a few moments. Ie I can "force" my consciousness with aid from the old memory to revisit a previous consciousness "state".

It seems I can only do this once regarding any given song or memory...very odd.

 

[fiend]

I'm aware (now) lol after I made the post I looked it up (Yes I know dumb eh).

However you didn't address the point of whether or not Neuron or Memory materials are replaced, IE are they static creations that work until the break or are the recycled chemically? By that I mean are the atoms and molecules that make up their structure periodically replaced? I find it very hard to believe that they are static fixtures...it seems so fragile meaning little to no room for repair. It seems like a massive oversight in the design of this mechanism.

Are there any methods in the brain to repair damaged memories for example? Or is a situation where by if its broken there is no back up process.

If they are recycled chemically the idea I had still applies.

Also I find it extremely odd that a memory can store from what I can guess is a consciousness imprint that can almost overwrite my current consciousness for a few moments. Ie I can "force" my consciousness with aid from the old memory to revisit a previous consciousness "state".

It seems I can only do this once regarding any given song or memory...very odd.

I didn't address that concept as:-
1. It's too complex and I have to study a lot about it.
2. It's not fully understood.

See Long term memory are retained as is, i.e. once stored it remains as chemicals and is only released by certain triggers, as for the fragility of structures is concerned the are widely believed beyond repair i.e. once made during child birth the neurons grow but don't divide but new studies indicate certain types are regenerated.(

You must be registered for see links

)

As for the your question of recycling, yes it is a dynamic process, you can't exactly call it recycling but your concept of dynamism/ new construction holds.
What happens:-
1.Memory is stored in various centres of the brain. After consolidation it is stored in a bunch of neurons.
2.Due to the encoding process this storage is redundant i.e if a part of memory is wiped, a copy of it remains.
3. Now when we need to retrieve this memory it is reconstructed brand new, so it is a certain form of recycling.


For example:- Say you met a person, certain part of brain will store his image, certain part will store his smell, certain part will store your surroundings etc..
Now when you try to recall it various chemicals will be released and a cohesive memory recollection will appear depending on the attention you were paying to it.

So we can say certain parts are static and other is reconstructed every time.

As for recollection yes there are many neurological/ psychological methods to recall a memory, like hypnosis or psychotherapy.

And the forcing back of memory is not conciousness, what you use in daily life, or currently is stored as Short term memory or a habitual memory/working memory which due to repetition have been consolidated in your mind.

As for forgetting it is dependent on a logarithmic curve, so that information loss is quite rapid at the start, but becomes slower as time goes on, once we have learned a thing quite well due to repetition or any other method we forget slowly.
It is believed that memory trace always remains in mind only our ability to retrieve it breaks down due to our new memories or changes in neural networks.
So by certain processes we might again recall it.

For example: 1.Songs, we might be attached to them or might have loved them so we vividly remember their details, in comparison to a bland boring detail. But the bland boring details still linger in our mid we just can't recollect it.

Or Say a tiger enters a persons room, he will always recall that day because of the shock factor, but a mosquito entering one's room won't be recalled even if the person has paid attention to it, but still the trace of memory of mosquito persists.

Again this is a very brief description by me and might have certain mistakes.

 

[valandil988]

I didn't address that concept as:-
1. It's too complex and I have to study a lot about it.
2. It's not fully understood.

See Long term memory are retained as is, i.e. once stored it remains as chemicals and is only released by certain triggers, as for the fragility of structures is concerned the are widely believed beyond repair i.e. once made during child birth the neurons grow but don't divide but new studies indicate certain types are regenerated.(

You must be registered for see links

)

As for the your question of recycling, yes it is a dynamic process, you can't exactly call it recycling but your concept of dynamism/ new construction holds.
What happens:-
1.Memory is stored in various centres of the brain. After consolidation it is stored in a bunch of neurons.
2.Due to the encoding process this storage is redundant i.e if a part of memory is wiped, a copy of it remains.
3. Now when we need to retrieve this memory it is reconstructed brand new, so it is a certain form of recycling.


For example:- Say you met a person, certain part of brain will store his image, certain part will store his smell, certain part will store your surroundings etc..
Now when you try to recall it various chemicals will be released and a cohesive memory recollection will appear depending on the attention you were paying to it.

So we can say certain parts are static and other is reconstructed every time.

As for recollection yes there are many neurological/ psychological methods to recall a memory, like hypnosis or psychotherapy.

And the forcing back of memory is not conciousness, what you use in daily life, or currently is stored as Short term memory or a habitual memory/working memory which due to repetition have been consolidated in your mind.

As for forgetting it is dependent on a logarithmic curve, so that information loss is quite rapid at the start, but becomes slower as time goes on, once we have learned a thing quite well due to repetition or any other method we forget slowly.
It is believed that memory trace always remains in mind only our ability to retrieve it breaks down due to our new memories or changes in neural networks.
So by certain processes we might again recall it.

For example: 1.Songs, we might be attached to them or might have loved them so we vividly remember their details, in comparison to a bland boring detail. But the bland boring details still linger in our mid we just can't recollect it.

Or Say a tiger enters a persons room, he will always recall that day because of the shock factor, but a mosquito entering one's room won't be recalled even if the person has paid attention to it, but still the trace of memory of mosquito persists.

Again this is a very brief description by me and might have certain mistakes.

Brilliant thank you very much ^_^

You cleared up alot of my own confusion but it more or less still opens the door for the idea that we are basically a unique individual in amongst a long line of copies.

Its a disturbing concept, its like your dying all the time to some extent.

Do we exist as information? Is the physical merely a vessel to hold that information and that copying this information is not creating a new version of the same being?

For example when I copy a file on my computer that file is not the "same" file I had in my downloads folder. Its a copy and almost exactly the same yet its not a continuation of the same "existence". Is it like that with us?

I'm not sure how to feel about that idea...

 

[YowYan]

Slightly offtopic but I had actual telepathic experiences before. Is there any scientific research that supports this claim?

 

[valandil988]

Slightly offtopic but I had actual telepathic experiences before. Is there any scientific research that supports this claim?

Well I can't really say. You can get a sense of what people are feeling. For example you can "feel" an oppressive mood holding over a place. But is that emphatic analysis by watching body language and how people speak or is it actually sensing something else? Meh...

Really if you hear voices I would believe them to come from inside my own mind not someone elses. If you could for example tell what people are thinking then it might be statistical evidence. IE Someone thinks a number and you can "hear" them thinking. Then I would say okay maybe there is something here to research.

But truthfully I would have to see it to believe it.

Don't get me wrong there are lots of strange abilities unique humans have. Like that guy which can hold million volt + tesla coils and not die due to his extremely dry skin.

But mental abilities are far harder to pin down if such things exist.

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For example I get sympathy pains for others that I see in pain or have injuries. Is this just extreme empathy or something else? I would bet on it being empathy.

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IF you can scientifically prove it to yourself using tests like I mentioned then you might have some manner of ability. But you have to be honest with yourself about trying to get non-bias tests.

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As for official scientific work not really. I've not really seen anything that would make me say, "wait there is something in this"

There are examples of mind control however. Using electrodes its possible to link two people and for one of them to control the others movements. To a certain extent.

 

[YowYan]

Hmkay good read.
Well, for example; i'm fast asleep and suddenly I hear my name being called loud and clear inside my head and I feel the emotion from the transmitter. In this case my gf had a nightmare and whrn i called her with the phone after waking up, she picked up after a second and said yeah i was calling you. Had a bad dream. I know a few others with similar phenomena happening to them. And also reiki healing. I felt this reiki practicioner send a shockwave over my arm by just focusing on his elektro-magnetic field in/around his hands.

 

[valandil988]

Hmkay good read.
Well, for example; i'm fast asleep and suddenly I hear my name being called loud and clear inside my head and I feel the emotion from the transmitter. In this case my gf had a nightmare and whrn i called her with the phone after waking up, she picked up after a second and said yeah i was calling you. Had a bad dream. I know a few others with similar phenomena happening to them. And also reiki healing. I felt this reiki practicioner send a shockwave over my arm by just focusing on his elektro-magnetic field in/around his hands.

Belief is a powerful force. Especially when regarding the mind and how it effects your senses. For example my mother when I was young would sooth my wounds or illness by "gathering up pain" and throwing it away with a physical motion, and because I believed in her it would work, I would slowly feel less pain.

Was this evidence of some mystical force or was it simply the bond between mother and son? It is not unusual to feel spontaneous concern for a significant other. My own father for example can be described as being "fay" he has uncanny abilities to predict family members deaths via dreaming, his mother before him had the same ability. I however have no such aptitude. Dad has always been very connected to his blood and family. This emotional link is something I myself do no specifically have.

I can no more explain this ability than I can the emotional link you have with your girl friend prompting you to call her up in concern.

Honestly? I feel there is much more to learn about the physical world and how energy and space time tie into our daily lives. Simply put we don't know.

 

[Disquiet]

^A placebo effect? The stuff about your mom. Sounds like it but of course I don't know. The fact that the mind can even produce a placebo effect may be a tree in an unexplored forest.


OT: That was a great read. Always love reading about stuff like this since mainstream science doesn't delve into such "radical" ideas often (apart from Quantum Mechanics).

 

[valandil988]

^A placebo effect? The stuff about your mom. Sounds like it but of course I don't know.


OT: That was a great read. Always love reading about stuff like this since mainstream science doesn't delve into such "radical" ideas often (apart from Quantum Mechanics).

I was eluding to placebo yes. I agree mainstream science can get quite boring

 

[BlacLord™]

As per Atkinson–Shiffrin model of memory there are three types:-
1.Sensory
2. Short Term
3. Long Term

Sensory- Due to any external stimuli
Short term- holding a small amount of information in mind in an active, readily available state for a short period of time.
Long Term- Indefinite storage of the memory as chemicals in brain.

Memory storage process involve:-
Encoding-Ability to store and recall memory
Consolidation and re-consolidation:- Conversion of STM-LTM and it's consolidation, hippocampus is involved and processes like Long-term potentiation are involved (i.e. enhancement of interaction, between 2 neurons)

The point in question is Long Term memory, long term memory is dependent on protein synthesis in various cellular bodies, on triggering of an external/ internal/ genetic factors, it is stored indefinitely and can be recalled by various ways/ triggers an example given by you Music, a piece you heard long time a go and was stored in your brain as an episodic memory, listening to it again after some time triggered that episode which gave the nostalgia factor.

So in short Long Term memory is stored in human mind indefinitely, while ST is for a few seconds which through repetitiveness or association to a strong external stimuli can get stored for a long time and can be recalled easily.

Consciousness and memory are two completely different concepts and are independent of each other. As for the storage of memory is concerned a memory which becomes LT is stored indefinitely.

As far as human neurons are concerned once differentiated in natal form they loose their power of division, they are somatic and don't multiply, new studies/ experiments are working on inducing the power of division in certain types of neuron but they are yet in their infancy.

In fact the whole topic of memory is not yet clearly understood. What I tried to explain is a very crude and brief explanation of memory which is an extremely complicated/ complex topic, so there might be some mistakes in my explanation.

Multi Store Model is outdated and oversimplified.

You should look towards Levels of Processing and take into account the Working Memory Model but at the end of the day, all these psychological theories are just that, and all fail to explain sufficiently in some key areas and phenomenons.

Never mind clearly understood, the mechanisms and functions of memory aren't understood per se.

 

[Souji]

Isn't this the same principle as working on a computer? You open a file, add some stuff or change it, and save it, overwriting the previous file.

Of course, I like to think that the human mind is more complex than that, but isn't that what you're basically saying?

 

[fiend]

Multi Store Model is outdated and oversimplified.

You should look towards Levels of Processing and take into account the Working Memory Model but at the end of the day, all these psychological theories are just that, and all fail to explain sufficiently in some key areas and phenomenons.

Never mind clearly understood, the mechanisms and functions of memory aren't understood per se.

Yeah I know, and it is better to combine/ take parts of each and every model to explain memory, I was just trying to simplify as much as possible. Anyways the biological process intrigue me more than the models, be it Long Term Potentiation or the various proteins involved or the various processes and parts of brain in the memory/ brain function as a whole.
Like you said we still are miles away from understanding everything about it and the research part still in its infancy.