[Theory] Can Bijuu really be controlled by any sharingan/mokuton user?

[Mr Hiru]

Let me be clear from start: This is just conjecture. But it just stroke me as some relationships of manga facts were essentially wrong if I accepted them "as is". This said, let's begin.

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We have been able to see how Kurama has been suppressed/controlled by Mokuton and Sharingan. But accepting that every user of Mokuton/Sharingan can control Kurama is failing to realize that there are few correlated cases where this is a truth.

The only scenarios where we have been able to see Kurama being suppressed are:

- Hashirama
- Madara
- Sasuke
- Naruto
- Yamato
- Obito

...that's all right, it seems everyone in there has something to show... wait, no. Naruto doesn't have Mokuton... then why could he suppress Kurama with his chakra, after Minato seal broke (this is known as KCM all right)?

When I realized this inconsistency, every piece fell into its place.

- Hashirama is a transmigrant of Ashura, so Hashirama has Ashura's chakra.
- Yamato is an experiment that came from Hashirama, ergo, Yamato also has Ashura's chakra in a lesser degree, thus inheriting the capacity to supress Bijuu chakra (for those who may have objections towards this case, well, even Sasori was able to draw The Magnet Element from the Third Kazekage, so yes, Hashirama's Cells had Ashura's chakra all right!).

- Madara could because his Sharingan had straight Tomoe... quite the reference towards Indra's Sharingan.
- Sasuke... just as Madara.

- The rare case of "Obito". Well, he had Zetsu Cells implanted, which makes him someone related to the God Tree (the origin of powers of both Indra and Ashura).

- And then, the inconsistent case... "Naruto". Answer: He is a transmigrant.

The conclusion to this line of relationships is that only those who have transmigrants chakra possess the ability to supress the beasts chakra.

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Telling that other people with mokuton/sharingan which are not related to Ashura/Indra can do this would be falling into the "sequndum quid" fallacy, and by transitivity in one of the cases of "argumentum ad ignorantiam" fallacy.

I just realized about this.

Now, as I said earlier, this is just conjecture. I may be wrong.

Thoughts?

 

[-Haku Yuki-]

what about obito?

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Was about to agree then I remembered Obito controlled kurama fairly easy too

 

[Mr Hiru]

what about obito?

Are you speaking about that Uchiha who had Zetsu Cells? I think he also had relationship with transmigrants in this case, in a lesser degree of course, just as Yamato.

I'll add it to the list, thanks for reminding me about it.

 

[SAGEMASTER84]

Thank you throwing that out there!

 

[Zawerni]

Yamato and Obito didn't have Ashura chakra. It had already transmigrated on after Hashirama died.

The case of Sasori and the Kazekage,

The Magnet Release was the Third Kazekage's Kekkei Genkai. Even if he dies he doesn't lose that. The chakra of Ashura and Indra move on after the current transmigrant dies though.

I'm curious what you mean by Naruto suppressing the Kyuubi after the seal broke.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Yamato and Obito didn't have Ashura chakra. It had already transmigrated on after Hashirama died.

The case of Sasori and the Kazekage,

The Magnet Release was the Third Kazekage's Kekkei Genkai. Even if he dies he doesn't lose that. The chakra of Ashura and Indra move on after the current transmigrant dies though.

I'm curious what you mean by Naruto suppressing the Kyuubi after the seal broke.

There is a contradiction on the bolded part. The fact that Sasori could use the Third Kazekage's Kekkei Genkai proves that chakra remains in body after death.

Furthermore (if I remember correctly the chapter... 17?) it is explained that Physical Energy is inside each cell, and chapter 90 explains very well that chakra = physical + spiritual energy.

I understand the claim about transmigrants chakra moving on. But I disagree, because the transmigrant chakra is there from birth, so essentially the transmigrant chakra is in essence the only kind of chakra that is contained the body.

The only way for the chakra completely moving on (a paradox, as far as I can see) would be explained within the following question: If Ashura left Hashirama's body after death... then whose chakra is currently on its dead cells? The answer can't be Hashirama's chakra, because all chakra Hashirama had when he was born was Ashura's chakra. If chakra moved on, then Hashirama's cells would not have any kind of chakra, but the fact is, it "had". Yamato and its Mokuton element in a lesser state is the proof of this fact. Also, the fact that Hagoromo stated how Madara stopped being a Indra transmigrant after he forced Hashirama's Cells/flesh (and created a transmigration of Hagoromo's himself) is proof enough that correlates DNA and Transmigration.

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Now, about Naruto suppressing the Kyuubi after the seal broke... well, it's rather simple.

Let's compare

Naruto's own seal

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Kushina's seal

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...Kurama recognize the "Sage of Six Paths...!" ...(??? seal). The only thing that correlated Naruto with Hagoromo is "Ashura", so, it's quite safe to assume that it Kurama tried to say Ashura's Seal. Since Kushina's Seal didn't have any of Ashura's Pillars, it's also safe to assume that transmigration is not something inherited from mother/father to son, but it only passed spiritually or within the same cells that holded the chakra (again, alluding to the fact that Madara used Hashirama's DNA to pass the transmigrant chakra and awakening the Rinnegan).

Now, as for the process of segregatin Kurama's chakra.

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Naruto used a separated space inside him... inside Ashura's Seal, to get a hold of Kurama's Chakra.

To further strengthen my point, I present you:

Sempou - Myoujinmon

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So, it can't be coincidence.

 

[T0bidara]

or it could be the whole transmigration thing is just something kishimoto added later on and sed **** it to the past......

kinda like how originally all of kurama was sealed in naruto then much later it was only half.....

 

[Zawerni]

There is a contradiction on the bolded part. The fact that Sasori could use the Third Kazekage's Kekkei Genkai proves that chakra remains in body after death.

Furthermore (if I remember correctly the chapter... 17?) it is explained that Physical Energy is inside each cell, and chapter 90 explains very well that chakra = physical + spiritual energy.

I understand the claim about transmigrants chakra moving on. But I disagree, because the transmigrant chakra is there from birth, so essentially the transmigrant chakra is in essence the only kind of chakra that is contained the body.

The only way for the chakra completely moving on (a paradox, as far as I can see) would be explained within the following question: If Ashura left Hashirama's body after death... then whose chakra is currently on its dead cells? The answer can't be Hashirama's chakra, because all chakra Hashirama had when he was born was Ashura's chakra. If chakra moved on, then Hashirama's cells would not have any kind of chakra, but the fact is, it "had". Yamato and its Mokuton element in a lesser state is the proof of this fact. Also, the fact that Hagoromo stated how Madara stopped being a Indra transmigrant after he forced Hashirama's Cells/flesh (and created a transmigration of Hagoromo's himself) is proof enough that correlates DNA and Transmigration.

Hashirama has his own chakra. All his chakra isn't Ashura's chakra. He had Ashura's chakra within him, but he also had his own like everyone else. When he was revived via Edo Tensei, all he had was his own chakra. Same with Madara, and even Rinne Tensei Madara had his own chakra.

With the Third Kazekage, his Kekkei Genkai was his ability. That's something that stays with him even in death. It's the same with other Kekkei Genkai and other people. That doesn't really prove Yamato or Obito had Ashura's chakra.

If that was the case, Obito could have awakened his own Rinnegan if he had Ashura's chakra from Hashirama cells and Indra's chakra from Madara's chakra that was inside him. (Madara tried to use his chakra to control Obito and Rinne Tensei him)

 

[Mr Hiru]

Hashirama has his own chakra. All his chakra isn't Ashura's chakra. He had Ashura's chakra within him, but he also had his own like everyone else. When he was revived via Edo Tensei, all he had was his own chakra. Same with Madara, and even Rinne Tensei Madara had his own chakra.

With the Third Kazekage, his Kekkei Genkai was his ability. That's something that stays with him even in death. It's the same with other Kekkei Genkai and other people. That doesn't really prove Yamato or Obito had Ashura's chakra.

If that was the case, Obito could have awakened his own Rinnegan if he had Ashura's chakra from Hashirama cells and Indra's chakra from Madara's chakra that was inside him. (Madara tried to use his chakra to control Obito and Rinne Tensei him)

You see, there is again a contradiction in your logic.

If you were right about that, then it would have been impossible for Madara to awake the Rinnegan in his Edo Tensei state, because Rinnegan is Hagoromo's Doujutsu which can only be awakened when both transmigrants chakra are used, and this is manga fact. Furthermore, it would have been impossible for Kabuto to do investigations to trace back Madara's abilities to the Rinnegan.

But you still are claiming that dead bodies can't have the transmigrants chakra... Rinnegan Edo Madara is proof enough of this being false. There is always a tiny bit of the transmigrant chakra in the dead body.

 

[Zawerni]

You see, there is again a contradiction in your logic.

If you were right about that, then it would have been impossible for Madara to awake the Rinnegan in his Edo Tensei state, because Rinnegan is Hagoromo's Doujutsu which can only be awakened when both transmigrants chakra are used, and this is manga fact. Furthermore, it would have been impossible for Kabuto to do investigations to trace back Madara's abilities to the Rinnegan.

But you still are claiming that dead bodies can't have the transmigrants chakra... Rinnegan Edo Madara is proof enough of this being false. There is always a tiny bit of the transmigrant chakra in the dead body.

Madara awakened the Rinnegan when he was still alive. The thing about Madara's Edo Tensei was that Kabuto made it "special", in that Madara was brought back in his prime yet retained the abilities he had until his death. This including the Rinnegan.

That's how Edo Tensei works. The person is Reanimated with the abilities they had before their death.

Again, if that was true Obito would have his own pair of Rinnegan. The transmigrants move on after the current host dies. That's how it works.

 

[Draxus]

It was establish within the konaha that sharingan users can control Kurama that why the Uchiha clan fell under more scrutiny. Are you inferring that ever Uchiha whoever controlled kurama was also a transmigrant?

 

[Reboryushon]

Tailed beasts are like Otsutsuki family pets.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Madara awakened the Rinnegan when he was still alive. The thing about Madara's Edo Tensei was that Kabuto made it "special", in that Madara was brought back in his prime yet retained the abilities he had until his death. This including the Rinnegan.

That's how Edo Tensei works. The person is Reanimated with the abilities they had before their death.

Again, if that was true Obito would have his own pair of Rinnegan. The transmigrants move on after the current host dies. That's how it works.

False. The only way for Obito to awake the Rinnegan would have getting a hold of both Ashura and Indra's chakra. Obito did not have Indra's chakra.

 

[Byron123]

It may not be important currently but you're right nonetheless.

 

[Zawerni]

False. The only way for Obito to awake the Rinnegan would have getting a hold of both Ashura and Indra's chakra. Obito did not have Indra's chakra.

Some of Madara's chakra was within Obito. That's how Madara was able to control him when he tried to have Obito use the Rinne Tensei.

If Ashura and Indra's chakra remained like you say, he would have had both and gotten Rinnegan.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Some of Madara's chakra was within Obito. That's how Madara was able to control him when he tried to have Obito use the Rinne Tensei.

If Ashura and Indra's chakra remained like you say, he would have had both and gotten Rinnegan.

Again false. Madara's chakra was not inside Obito, it was a reaction of the Black Zetsu, which was proved that was not part of Madara's scheme.

Madara thoughts he was using the technique of the Six Paths to imbue his own will... he was clearly wrong. Last chapters related to Kaguya's revival clearifies all of this mess. Ergo, BZ has nothing to do with Indra, meaning that Obito does not have any bit of Indra's chakra.

 

[Zawerni]

Again false. Madara's chakra was not inside Obito, it was a reaction of the Black Zetsu, which was proved that was not part of Madara's scheme.

Madara thoughts he was using the technique of the Six Paths to imbue his own will... he was clearly wrong. Last chapters related to Kaguya's revival clearifies all of this mess. Ergo, BZ has nothing to do with Indra, meaning that Obito does not have any bit of Indra's chakra.

Spoiler

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Madara was trying to control Obito via chakra. Obito didn't have Black Zetsu.

The chapters of Kaguya's revival and the things Black Zetsu were saying clarify nothing. It just rewrites what "actually happened" once again and completely messes up the story behind it all, to the point that it makes even less sense.

If Obito didn't have a portion of Madara's chakra inside him, then how was Madara able to control him in an attempt to use Rinne Tensei? Again, it wasn't Black Zetsu, because he wasn't even on the battlefield at the time.