BSM Naruto vs EMS Madara

[Mocoloco8]

Location: Madara vs Gokage
Knowledge: Full
Restrictions: Madara can't summon Kurama
Distance: 100 meters
Mindset: both going for the kill

I think most will say Madara will win, but I think a good case can be made for Naruto too.

 

[NarutoX28]

Madara wins quite easily honestly.

 

[Mocoloco8]

Madara wins quite easily honestly.

can you elaborate, because I don't see how that happens? From what i've seen, Madara is severely lacking in firepower while Naruto has more than enough to take his PS out which is what this battle would come to eventually.

 

[KidGamer65]

No, you can't tbh. No one can no longer make a case for Naruto that'd make any sense after the events that transpired in the war Arc and the final arc.

-The explosion that took off half of Madara's Susanoo at VotE>>>Combined explosion of the 5 Bijuu and BM Naruto's attack. Half of that plus a little more is Naruto's full power. Naruto fires his Flash BD and it's tanked with little damage. Any smaller Bijuu Dama is slapped right back at him.

-We've already seen via downscaling that the power of 2 regular Bijuu Dama is enough to damage Naruto's Avatar. PS cuts through Mountain Ranges. That's damage capability far beyond the level of any regular Bijuu Dama. Even if you want to argue that PS slash=Regular Bijuu Dama in power, PS has all that power focused into the edge of the blade, so 3-4 hits of something that can already damage Naruto cuts him apart.

-DB puts regular Mokujin on par with Full Kurama in physical power. PS matches SM enhanced Mokujin. So in physical power

-Manga puts Naruto=to Sasuke's enhanced V3 Susanoo in durability. The tails add extra durability due to the thickness and size in comparison to his body. Madara's PS>>>>Sasuke's enhanced V3 Susanoo in durability, size, speed and strength. Thus he's superior to Naruto in the same areas.

Avatar Clones are fanfic. That's RSM Naruto's ability. There's nothing left to cover. PS destroys Naruto.

 

[Mocoloco8]

No, you can't tbh. No one can no longer make a case for Naruto that'd make any sense after the events that transpired in the war Arc and the final arc.

-The explosion that took off half of Madara's Susanoo at VotE>>>Combined explosion of the 5 Bijuu and BM Naruto's attack. Half of that plus a little more is Naruto's full power. Naruto fires his Flash BD and it's tanked with little damage. Any smaller Bijuu Dama is slapped right back at him.

I don't think that's true at all. The 5 bijuu + Naruto's attack produced a fireball explosion that's so potent it vaporizes any rock caught in it. The explosion that we saw at VoTe wasn't a fireball explosion, it was just a big mess of dust and debri that was caused by the shockwaves of hashirama's punches hitting susanoo and bijuudamas exploding. Not only are those kinds of explosions far less damaging considering Naruto's Rasenshuriken is capable of making the same kind of explosion that dwarfs mountains:

Spoiler

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, but Madara's susanoo only took half of that since it wasn't a singular explosion, it's just the destruction caused by the many attacks hitting SS and Susanoo seperately.

If we go by your method and directly compare the two explosions as if they are equal in quality, you come to the conclusion that Naruto's FRS > BD, which we know is false.

Next, Naruto's full power is far more than half of that considering that:
1) he's far stronger than the hachibi, and therefore would provide much more than half of the

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(which was significantly larger than the 5 bijuudama explosion
2) it's not BM Naruto, it's BSM Naruto so all of his attacks are greatly enhanced by sennin mode.

-We've already seen via downscaling that the power of 2 regular Bijuu Dama is enough to damage Naruto's Avatar. PS cuts through Mountain Ranges. That's damage capability far beyond the level of any regular Bijuu Dama. Even if you want to argue that PS slash=Regular Bijuu Dama in power, PS has all that power focused into the edge of the blade, so 3-4 hits of something that can already damage Naruto cuts him apart.

When did we see that two regular bijuudama can damage Naruto's avatar? We've seen his avatar withstand the juubi's laser which is far more powerful than anything Madara's PS can come close to. Plus, Sasuke's PS could cut casually cut through dense meteors the size of the combined bijuudama crater:

Spoiler

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yet a direct hit from his slashes does almost no damage to the tails of Naruto's avatar, while an explosion which isn't even close to the size of the combined BD crater:

Spoiler

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does far more damage to his and Naruto's avatar. So that means that explosions from TBBs are far more powerful and damaging than the slashes despite having a much shorter range.

Avatar Clones are fanfic. That's RSM Naruto's ability. There's nothing left to cover. PS destroys Naruto.

Don't see how that is fanfic, but I wasn't even including that in the equation.

 

[Booker]

Madara grinds Naruto beneath his heel. Madara's PS is perfectly capable of tanking Bijuudamas from a FULL Kurama, Naruto isn't doing jack to PS or Madara.

Meanwhile Madara slashes a few times and obliterates BMN.

 

[Ambivalence]

BSM Naruto with Full Kurama beats him.

Half? Nope.

 

[BLAZE]

Now there are 3 Threads

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OT: Madara stomps

 

[KidGamer65]

I don't think that's true at all. The 5 bijuu + Naruto's attack produced a fireball explosion that's so potent it vaporizes any rock caught in it. The explosion that we saw at VoTe wasn't a fireball explosion, it was just a big mess of dust and debri that was caused by the shockwaves of hashirama's punches hitting susanoo and bijuudamas exploding. Not only are those kinds of explosions far less damaging considering Naruto's Rasenshuriken is capable of making the same kind of explosion that dwarfs mountains:

Spoiler

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, but Madara's susanoo only took half of that since it wasn't a singular explosion, it's just the destruction caused by the many attacks hitting SS and Susanoo seperately.

Dust and debris? Dust is smoke.

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isn't dust. There are no debris in that explosion except for the pieces of SS shown on the right side of the explosion. Same type of blast as

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and that's clearly not dust or debris as they clashed against the Gudo Dama. Not rock. It not being a fireball explosion doesn't mean it's less potent. That's not based on anything except this FRS point, which doesn't apply here simply because FRS in itself is a less potent jutsu than Bijuu Dama irregardless of how the explosion looks.

If we go by your method and directly compare the two explosions as if they are equal in quality, you come to the conclusion that Naruto's FRS > BD, which we know is false.

Nope. FRS and BD aren't the same attack nor are they the same type of attack so explosion size doesn't indicate which is stronger. That's not the case for the above explosion. Bijuu Dama are both the jutsu in question thus the potency is exactly the same, especially since they are from the same entity. Kurama.

Next, Naruto's full power is far more than half of that considering that:
1) he's far stronger than the hachibi, and therefore would provide much more than half of the

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(which was significantly larger than the 5 bijuudama explosion
2) it's not BM Naruto, it's BSM Naruto so all of his attacks are greatly enhanced by sennin mode.

1. None of the Bijuu have shown the ability to use Bijuu Dama larger than the regular size except for Naruto, yet they can make a Bijuu Dama that dwarfs any of them in size. The same goes for Naruto. Collaborating with B to make that doesn't mean he can make something larger than Flash Bijuu Dama.

2. Sage Mode's affect on Naruto's power in Bijuu Mode isn't great and feats show that regardless of what everyone thinks his power should be.

When did we see that two regular bijuudama can damage Naruto's avatar? We've seen his avatar withstand the juubi's laser which is far more powerful than anything Madara's PS can come close to. Plus, Sasuke's PS could cut casually cut through dense meteors the size of the combined bijuudama crater:

Spoiler

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yet a direct hit from his slashes does almost no damage to the tails of Naruto's avatar, while an explosion which isn't even close to the size of the combined BD crater:

Spoiler

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does far more damage to his and Naruto's avatar. So that means that explosions from TBBs are far more powerful and damaging than the slashes despite having a much shorter range.

The explosion of Naruto's regular BD in RSM and Sasuke's Chidori took off a good portion of his Avatar. Take away the Rikudo boost and you are left with BM Naruto, his regular BD, and Sasuke w/ his Chidori. (assuming he can use it for this example) Take away equal power ups from both sides and the result remains the same, just downscaled.

Naruto's tails can withstand the Juubi laser with him losing 6 of them, and I already explained why that is the case.

No, all that proves is that RSM Naruto's regular Bijuu Dama and Sasuke's Chidori is far more damaging than Sasuke's PS Slash, not that Bijuu Dama in general is more damaging than Madara's PS slash and that's mainly because the power of Naruto's Bijuu Dama is far beyond the power of Sasuke's slash as Naruto's BD in RSM matches Sasuke's Chidori which is >> his sword alone. Not sure how you jumped from that conclusion to the other conclusion.

Don't see how that is fanfic, but I wasn't even including that in the equation.

I just threw that in there since I figure you are going to try to bring it up sooner or later.

 

[Mocoloco8]

Dust and debris? Dust is smoke.

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isn't dust. There are no debris in that explosion except for the pieces of SS shown on the right side of the explosion. Same type of blast as

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and that's clearly not dust or debris as they clashed against the Gudo Dama. Not rock. It not being a fireball explosion doesn't mean it's less potent. That's not based on anything except this FRS point, which doesn't apply here simply because FRS in itself is a less potent jutsu than Bijuu Dama irregardless of how the explosion looks.

That is dust/dirt and debri. The only reason you can't literally see the individual debri is because it's on such a large scale. You can however see debri from SS which proves that it's just dust and debri. It's not the same kind of explosion as the gudoudama as
#1: Bijuudamas only produce that kind of explosion when they hit the target with such momentum that the explosion continues in the same direction as the BD's trajectory.

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We know that this wasn't the case with the VoTe explosion since SS is on the right half, had the explosion actually been like the one Naruto fired at the gudoudama, Madara wouldn't have been completely unharmed by it.
#2: the shinsuusenjuu hitting kyuusanoo provided half the power of that explosion, which means it can't be the same vaporizing explosion as a BD since giant punching arms don't vaporize
#3: had it been the same kind of explosion as a the gudoudama or KN4, the explosion would have still vaporized all the rock beneath susanoo and the shinusuusenjuu, creating a smooth crater

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#4: we know that the explosion at VoTe resulted from multiple attacks, so it's not really an explosion and can't be compared to a singularity like a BD exploding on juubito's shield.

So no, there's no way that the explosion at VoTe was of the same kind as the one that hit juubito's shield.

Nope. FRS and BD aren't the same attack nor are they the same type of attack so explosion size doesn't indicate which is stronger. That's not the case for the above explosion. Bijuu Dama are both the jutsu in question thus the potency is exactly the same, especially since they are from the same entity. Kurama.

Sure it does, the above explosion isn't just made by bijuudama, it's made by bijuudama + shinsuusenjuu shockwaves + PS swords. So it's not BD vs BD and the potency aren't at all the same.

1. None of the Bijuu have shown the ability to use Bijuu Dama larger than the regular size except for Naruto, yet they can make a Bijuu Dama that dwarfs any of them in size. The same goes for Naruto. Collaborating with B to make that doesn't mean he can make something larger than Flash Bijuu Dama.

That logic absolutely doesn't follow. The bijuu used a BD 1 time in the manga and its purpose was to kill kakashi and Gai which is massive overkill. There's absolutely no evidence that even slightly implies that those BD were their maximum.
The same thing is with Naruto, nothing implies that a flash bijuudama that he generated in an instant is even close to his max, nor does anything imply that he's incapable of making a BD of the equivalent size of what he contributed to the combined bijuudama.
The only evidence about Naruto's max BD is from his contribution to the combined, anything else gives us no information about what his maximum is.

2. Sage Mode's affect on Naruto's power in Bijuu Mode isn't great and feats show that regardless of what everyone thinks his power should be.

Based on what?

The explosion of Naruto's regular BD in RSM and Sasuke's Chidori took off a good portion of his Avatar. Take away the Rikudo boost and you are left with BM Naruto, his regular BD, and Sasuke w/ his Chidori. (assuming he can use it for this example) Take away equal power ups from both sides and the result remains the same, just downscaled.

I think my point flew over your head. The explosion shows that direct hits from a PS slash that can cut meteors WAY bigger than that explosion in half did nothing to Naruto's avatar. That shows how the slashes compare in power to the explosion of BDs. So Madara's slashes are actually far weaker than the BDs that Naruto can output and wouldn't do much to the avatar.

No, all that proves is that RSM Naruto's regular Bijuu Dama and Sasuke's Chidori is far more damaging than Sasuke's PS Slash, not that Bijuu Dama in general is more damaging than Madara's PS slash and that's mainly because the power of Naruto's Bijuu Dama is far beyond the power of Sasuke's slash as Naruto's BD in RSM matches Sasuke's Chidori which is >> his sword alone. Not sure how you jumped from that conclusion to the other conclusion.

Unless you're going to claim that the explosion of Naruto and Sasuke's chidori BD clash had some magical property that made it far stronger than a normal BD explosion, then it absolutely proves that a BD explosion can be far smaller than the AoE of a PS slash, yet be far stronger even if the slash makes a direct hit.

i don't see how you can possibly come up with a different conclusion

1) Sasuke's slashes have proven to cut through Meteors the size of this crater circled in yellow:

Spoiler

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2) The actual explosion from Sasuke and Naruto's chidori + BD clash is far smaller than the crater, and therefore far smaller than what sasuke's slash can easily cut.
3) Despite that, Sasuke's slashes do nothing to Naruto's avatar while the explosion with a far smaller AoE blows off Naruto's arm.

So direct slashes from a PS that can cut through a mountain range isn't even stronger than a normal bijuudama since the explosion of a bijuudama is far stronger than a slash even if the slash has a much greater AoE.



I just threw that in there since I figure you are going to try to bring it up sooner or later.[/QUOTE]

 

[isonworth18]

naruto wins low diff

 

[Unorthodox]

PS > Kurama so Madara wins

 

[KidGamer65]

That is dust/dirt and debri. The only reason you can't literally see the individual debri is because it's on such a large scale. You can however see debri from SS which proves that it's just dust and debri. It's not the same kind of explosion as the gudoudama as
#1: Bijuudamas only produce that kind of explosion when they hit the target with such momentum that the explosion continues in the same direction as the BD's trajectory.

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We know that this wasn't the case with the VoTe explosion since SS is on the right half, had the explosion actually been like the one Naruto fired at the gudoudama, Madara wouldn't have been completely unharmed by it.
#2: the shinsuusenjuu hitting kyuusanoo provided half the power of that explosion, which means it can't be the same vaporizing explosion as a BD since giant punching arms don't vaporize
#3: had it been the same kind of explosion as a the gudoudama or KN4, the explosion would have still vaporized all the rock beneath susanoo and the shinusuusenjuu, creating a smooth crater

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#4: we know that the explosion at VoTe resulted from multiple attacks, so it's not really an explosion and can't be compared to a singularity like a BD exploding on juubito's shield.

So no, there's no way that the explosion at VoTe was of the same kind as the one that hit juubito's shield.

Debris from SS being in that explosion doesn't prove that the rest of it is dust and debris, because what you see looks nothing like dust or debris.

1. Sure, how does this matter in the grand scheme of things?

2. That doesn't matter. SS's attack rivals Madara's attack, which can be held against other Bijuu Dama as they are the same jutsu from the same Bijuu, but different sizes when it comes to explosions. Whether or not they vaporize doesn't change the fact that they are on par with Madara's attack and far stronger than most regular Bijuu Dama in this series.

3. :lol Why would a smooth crater be created? No smooth crater was made when Kurama's BD first exploded in this same location.

4. Wrong and irrelevant. It resulting from multiple attacks is irrelevant. You saying it's not an explosion is literally based on nothing. It not being the traditional BD explosion doesn't change the fact that it is an explosion.


Even if you don't want to agree with this, Sasuke already matched Naruto's durability with a Susanoo far inferior to Madara's own. Naruto can survive the Juubi laser so we can forget about any BD he can make on his own without the other half of Kurama or other Bijuu helping him doing anything serious to PS here.

Someone will probably say "but he used his tails!". The tails aren't more durable pound for pound. They are simply thicker and larger than the main body. Madara's PS dwarfs Naruto's in size. Madara's PS dwarfs the Myojinmon Gates that Hashirama used to bind V3 Juubi. Gamakichi is boss summon size. That's Bijuu sized.

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So Madara's PS is much larger, thus much thicker than any part of Naruto's Avatar thus anything Naruto can survive Madara would survive it with far less damage.

Sure it does, the above explosion isn't just made by bijuudama, it's made by bijuudama + shinsuusenjuu shockwaves + PS swords. So it's not BD vs BD and the potency aren't at all the same.

It's Bijuu Dama, which is just as potent as other BD and an attack that rivals said Bijuu Dama in strength so what you are saying is irrelevant. If it were another attack that we either knew it didn't rival Madara's attack or we didn't know whether it rivaled it or not you'd have a point, but that's not the case here so you don't.

That logic absolutely doesn't follow. The bijuu used a BD 1 time in the manga and its purpose was to kill kakashi and Gai which is massive overkill. There's absolutely no evidence that even slightly implies that those BD were their maximum.
The same thing is with Naruto, nothing implies that a flash bijuudama that he generated in an instant is even close to his max, nor does anything imply that he's incapable of making a BD of the equivalent size of what he contributed to the combined bijuudama.
The only evidence about Naruto's max BD is from his contribution to the combined, anything else gives us no information about what his maximum is.

B used BD multiple times against multiple opponents and it has always been the same size.

-Against Taka.
-When he was trying to bust Naruto out of the Turtle Island barrier.
-Against V1 Juubi.
-Against V3 Juubi when he was trying to slow down his Bijuu Dama by firing his own.
-Against V2 Juubi when the SA used all their attacks at once to take out the tails.

So no, I have zero reason to believe Killer B can make above the standard. If he could use above the standard instead of spamming multiple regular sized BD when trying to deflect the Juubi's BD he would've used a larger one. The same goes for Naruto.

Based on what?

Based on the explosion of his regular Bijuu Dama not being dramatically larger than it should be despite him using Senjutsu. You can try and argue that the potency is far better but the way Bijuu Dama works is if a BD has more potent chakra, the ball is the same size but the explosion radius is larger.

I think my point flew over your head. The explosion shows that direct hits from a PS slash that can cut meteors WAY bigger than that explosion in half did nothing to Naruto's avatar. That shows how the slashes compare in power to the explosion of BDs. So Madara's slashes are actually far weaker than the BDs that Naruto can output and wouldn't do much to the avatar.

No, I understood your point and it doesn't apply here. The explosion shows that the power of Sasuke's PS's slashes don't compare to a Bijuu Dama and Chidori from RSM Naruto and RG Sasuke, not that the power of PS slashes in general don't compare to the power of Bijuu Dama in general.

Unless you're going to claim that the explosion of Naruto and Sasuke's chidori BD clash had some magical property that made it far stronger than a normal BD explosion, then it absolutely proves that a BD explosion can be far smaller than the AoE of a PS slash, yet be far stronger even if the slash makes a direct hit.

i don't see how you can possibly come up with a different conclusion

A BD explosion being far smaller than the AoE of a PS slash is a comparison that's irrelevant. How does the AoE of a PS Slash have anything to do with it's power? :lol That's what your entire comparative argument is hinged on and it doesn't make sense. How does Sasuke, who failed to cut Naruto, cutting a Meteor larger than the explosion that damaged Naruto's Avatar mean that Madara can't cut BM Naruto's Avatar with his own PS slashes? There is nothing in your argument that connects the two. The bold isn't a connection between what happened and your claim.


Then we have the fact that your attempt at size comparison is flawed.

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The area where the mountains are rounded near the edges are the edges of the crater from Naruto and B's combined Bijuu Dama.

The Meteors are as wide as the Shinju's trunk.

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The Shinju's trunk is nowhere near as wide as the crater Naruto and B made from their combined Bijuu Dama so your point just became a million times weaker than it was before. Naruto and Sasuke's Bijuu Dama+Chidori explosion is far larger than the Meteors Madara used thus your point falls apart completely.

And on the other hand we have the hype that the DB and Madara himself gives his Susanoo. "Power that rivals the Bijuu". You'd have to be delusional to actually sit here and argue that a regular Bijuu Dama is leagues above the offensive power of Madara's PS. :lol Without a direct hit Madara cuts apart Mountain Ranges. 3-4 direct hits and Naruto is dead. Not to mention he'd be getting ragdolled by the pure physical force behind these swings once they hit.

1) Sasuke's slashes have proven to cut through Meteors the size of this crater circled in yellow:

Spoiler

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2) The actual explosion from Sasuke and Naruto's chidori + BD clash is far smaller than the crater, and therefore far smaller than what sasuke's slash can easily cut.
3) Despite that, Sasuke's slashes do nothing to Naruto's avatar while the explosion with a far smaller AoE blows off Naruto's arm.

1. True.
2. True but irrelevant.
3. Also irrelevant.

So direct slashes from a PS that can cut through a mountain range isn't even stronger than a normal bijuudama since the explosion of a bijuudama is far stronger than a slash even if the slash has a much greater AoE.

Which is still based on nothing concrete enough to let your argument be anywhere close to legit.