Hi. I'd like to discuss about BSM naruto and PS sasuke.
I've seen people saying BSM naruto= Legged senjutsu V3 susanoo sasuke, because they were fighting side by side, so that means they're equal.
This logic is flawed
Just because they're side by side, doesn't mean they're equal. Further in the same battle, BSM naruto fused with PS sasuke and they fought together. So, PS= V3 legged senjutsu susanoo? No. Also, sakura was fighting with sasuke and naruto KCM side by side. So, sasuke V3= sakura= naruto KCM?
Besides, both naruto and sasuke were fighting with all they had in that battle, BSM for naruto, PS for sasuke. Doesn't mean they're equals.
If you're planning to reply with "lol, kishi said they're equal, they're equals" Or "they were portrayed as equals", read the above. If you're not, no need to read.
Now, let's see PS power.
Now, to Naruto BSM.
Power- We saw that naruto bijuu mode has an amazing destructive power. He can create a bijuu dama(TBB) powerful enough to match 5 bijuus' TBBs. We saw that he can easily create a chou mini bijuu dama and rasen shuriken. He can also make a full body kyuubi with chakra, or use chakra arms.Scans below
Speed- We saw that naruto BM has a great speed, being compared ans mistaken with the yondaime hokage, minato. Naruto is probably the second or third faster shinobi(there is Juubito, how is probablt first or second, minato, who is 1st or 2nd, and naruto BM). Scans below
Defense- Naruto BM's body is fulled with kurama's chakra, which already helps in the defense. Naruto can asol use chakra to make a chakra made kurama, that protects his main body. He can also make chakra projections of parts of kurama's body to protect himself. Scans below
Naruto BM can also make clones(kage bushin), clones in SM, KCM and even BM. We saw that SM naruto cone is kage lvl, and so is the KCM clone. The BM naruto clones have great power as well, even matching obito. Scans below.
So, basically, naruto BM has a great fire power, his speed is insane and he has a good defense. The kage bushins can be used to create a diversion or to atack as well, because the clones are very powerul too.
At last
So, this it it. Read everything before posting. I know it's big, but it must be done. If you don't have arguments or logic to back up your opinion, keep it for yourself.
Also, I know BSM naruto no longer exists, and both chars are near death. This, however, has nothing to do with the point of the thread
Sorry for the wall of text, thanks for the attention.
I've seen people saying BSM naruto= Legged senjutsu V3 susanoo sasuke, because they were fighting side by side, so that means they're equal.
This logic is flawed
Just because they're side by side, doesn't mean they're equal. Further in the same battle, BSM naruto fused with PS sasuke and they fought together. So, PS= V3 legged senjutsu susanoo? No. Also, sakura was fighting with sasuke and naruto KCM side by side. So, sasuke V3= sakura= naruto KCM?
Besides, both naruto and sasuke were fighting with all they had in that battle, BSM for naruto, PS for sasuke. Doesn't mean they're equals.
If you're planning to reply with "lol, kishi said they're equal, they're equals" Or "they were portrayed as equals", read the above. If you're not, no need to read.
I want to say that I've seen many people using this to "prove" that sasuke is always ≥ naruto. First, if they were always equal, there would be no > in this. Second, and most important, is that they are not always equal if you analyse both at the same time,and that is what I'm going to explain.
Let's see an exemple. Part 2(shippuden), 2nd arc, when sasuke first appears in part 2. Sasuke was clearly more powerful than naruto(base form) at that momment. He managed to make a small fight with yamato, naruto and say, and he did it pretty easily. Naruto hadn't got any great power up on his own back then(his greatest power was 4 tails v2, a power that he was trying not to use). There was nothing that could make them equalk back then.
Another exemple: Right after the pain arc, before sasuke engaged the battle with the gokage. Obito and zetsu had a meeting with sasuke, in which zetsu states that naruto was probably stronger than sasuke.
So, at that momment, naruto could be above sasuke.
What I mean is that they are not always equal. There are momments in which one is above the other. Kishi's statament meant that they make progress, they "evolve" together. They are always making progress, one right after the other, so that when they fight, they will be equal or almost equal. However, this doesn't mean that they are equal at any momment.
Let's see an exemple. Part 2(shippuden), 2nd arc, when sasuke first appears in part 2. Sasuke was clearly more powerful than naruto(base form) at that momment. He managed to make a small fight with yamato, naruto and say, and he did it pretty easily. Naruto hadn't got any great power up on his own back then(his greatest power was 4 tails v2, a power that he was trying not to use). There was nothing that could make them equalk back then.
Another exemple: Right after the pain arc, before sasuke engaged the battle with the gokage. Obito and zetsu had a meeting with sasuke, in which zetsu states that naruto was probably stronger than sasuke.
You must be registered for see images
So, at that momment, naruto could be above sasuke.
What I mean is that they are not always equal. There are momments in which one is above the other. Kishi's statament meant that they make progress, they "evolve" together. They are always making progress, one right after the other, so that when they fight, they will be equal or almost equal. However, this doesn't mean that they are equal at any momment.
Now, let's see PS power.
And 1st: I'M NOT talking about size, neither am iItalking about the outcome of a battle, I'm talking about DESTRUCTIVE POWER. Pay attention.
Another thing: I'm using madara's PS with the feats we've seen. I can't consider something I didn't see. I am not kishi, I can't predict the future feats.
At last: Don't reply if you: didn't read, don't have evidence or arguments to back up your opinion.
We are all aware of it's feats and the statement made by madara.
"Only the bijuu have a power comparable to this", or, in other translations, "A power that rivals the bijuu's". Madara means that his PS so much power that only the bijuus can compete with it. This doesn't mean that PS= All bijuus, nor it means that PS=1 Bijuu. It means that PS can face bijuu, we don't know exactly what are the bijuus it can face or if it can face some bijuus together.
So, now, to destruction feats. In the scan above, madara is showneasily destroying mountains with a slash of the PS. Very powerful indeed, living up to his statement. This is the power of the bijuus:
And this is another feat of the PS(covering kurama), slashing more mountains:
As I said, very powerful. With the feats we've seen, I suppose it's safe to say that the PS surpasses the hachibi and the other bijuus. However, there is an extremelly powerful bijuu, quite more powerful than the others, kurama.
We saw that 50% kurama(with jin) is powerful enough to face and outcome 5 bijuus:
Now, I'm putting as "spoiler" the following part, because it is kind of big. But please, read it.
Naruto BM's bijuu dama can do half of what that explosion did(I'm disconsidering possible loss of energy due to the impact of the bijuu damas and the energy lost in the motion), powerful enough to obliterate some moutains.
Again, I suppose it's safe to say that PS can rival 50% kurama with jin.
But what about 100% kurama? I don't think so, as we don't have many of it's feats, but we have a little bit of evidence to say that, I'll show it here.
Hashirama, some chapters ago, was keeping up with madara's PS using the mokuton goubi no jutsu. Also, in the past, hashi's goubi was able to hold madara's PS slash. So, it's safe to say that mokuton goubi can rival the PS.( Hashirama was in SM, ot might be a senpou goubi, but let's remember that his edo tensei is ALMOST at full power, and madara's PS is more powerful than it was in the past, thanks to the rinnegan and to the senju cells giving him a little boost)
However, what about the goubi vs kurama? Let's see:
Here, madara says "the mokuton goubi no jutsu, to fight against beasts?" What does this mean? It most likely means that madara is criticizing the fact that the goubi can't take a fight against that bijuu. What bijuu? 100% kurama, of course.
Now, some of you might say that "oh, but it's kurama with PS". True indeed, but let's see what took the goubi down:
Here it is shown that the goubi started to colapse after the explosion, The explosion was a result of the bijuu dama used by 100% kurama. Of course, the goubi wasn't made for tanking, but we saw that it can hold madara's PS and it's slash(with kurama)
Also, the goubi withstood madara's PS in here:
He took it, but stood, as shown later in battle, here:
With this, I want to conclude that the PS(madara's EMS PS, at least) is at least as powerful as 50% kurama with jin, probably even above but it's not in 100% kurama's lvl. It's likely to be close, but not as powerful.
As another conclusion, sasuke, who has the potential to one day, surpass madara, may achieve a PS that rivals 100% kurama. But so far, it's PS was just awakened, so it has, in the best case scenario, the power of madara's EMS PS.
Maybe, even weaker, as even the size it's just half as madara's size. So, sasuke's PS would be at best, in the same lvl as 50% kurama with jin.
Again: I am NOT saying that 100% kurama beats madara or PS, I'm checking the destructive power, not the outcome of the battle, so don't answer as if I were saying that. I am also not comparing their sizes, the only time I talked about size was about sasuke's PS, and only that. When it's about kurama, when it's about goubi, in none of these parts I cared about size.
Another thing: I'm using madara's PS with the feats we've seen. I can't consider something I didn't see. I am not kishi, I can't predict the future feats.
At last: Don't reply if you: didn't read, don't have evidence or arguments to back up your opinion.
We are all aware of it's feats and the statement made by madara.
You must be registered for see images
"Only the bijuu have a power comparable to this", or, in other translations, "A power that rivals the bijuu's". Madara means that his PS so much power that only the bijuus can compete with it. This doesn't mean that PS= All bijuus, nor it means that PS=1 Bijuu. It means that PS can face bijuu, we don't know exactly what are the bijuus it can face or if it can face some bijuus together.
So, now, to destruction feats. In the scan above, madara is showneasily destroying mountains with a slash of the PS. Very powerful indeed, living up to his statement. This is the power of the bijuus:
You must be registered for see images
And this is another feat of the PS(covering kurama), slashing more mountains:
You must be registered for see images
As I said, very powerful. With the feats we've seen, I suppose it's safe to say that the PS surpasses the hachibi and the other bijuus. However, there is an extremelly powerful bijuu, quite more powerful than the others, kurama.
We saw that 50% kurama(with jin) is powerful enough to face and outcome 5 bijuus:
You must be registered for see images
Now, I'm putting as "spoiler" the following part, because it is kind of big. But please, read it.
We know that the mountains destroyed by the PS are a result of the air pressure. However. that air pressure is a direct result of the force made by the slash. Now, the slash. The force that madara uses to the slash is a direct result of the speed madara moves the sword. the mass of the arm and sword. That's because force of impact: F=I/t and I=Q-Q0, and as madara was not moving before, Q0=0 and Q= m.v. Now, considering the conservation of momentum, and as the air moved doesn't have as much mass as the susanoo, it reaches great speeds, which is why the air reached the mountais almost instantly. Now, disconsidering the loss of energy due to the friction of the sword with the air, and during the movement of the air(after all, it was fast, that's why I am disconsidering it), the force of impact of the air it's Q/t, and as Qair almost= Qsusanoo slash, so does the time the susanoo pushes the air compared to the time the air "pushes" the mountais, we can say that the force of impact made in the end it's almost as equal as if madara was hitting it directly. Of course, madara hitting it directly would be stronger, I know, but not hat much stronger.
So that's why I using this feat.
And for any chakra projectile. Considering that the energy necessary for the force is W=F.d.cos a, and cosa=1, we know that madara used an amount of energy to that. Remember: chakra is internal energy(physical+spiritual)
Now: As the ranged atacks are made by chakra projectiles, they could result on a force of impact close to the slash, as the user of the PS uses an amount of energy to move the sword as fast as possible. So, it's the same user, the user has the same energy. If he uses the same amount of energy in a projectile, and the same energy to throw it, that would result in a force of impace almost equal to the the impact of the slash. If it is an explosive projectile, the only impact would be of the explosion, so the momentum and the force of impace just of the mass of the projectile wouldn't be considered in the damage of the atack, as they explode.
So that's why I using this feat.
And for any chakra projectile. Considering that the energy necessary for the force is W=F.d.cos a, and cosa=1, we know that madara used an amount of energy to that. Remember: chakra is internal energy(physical+spiritual)
Now: As the ranged atacks are made by chakra projectiles, they could result on a force of impact close to the slash, as the user of the PS uses an amount of energy to move the sword as fast as possible. So, it's the same user, the user has the same energy. If he uses the same amount of energy in a projectile, and the same energy to throw it, that would result in a force of impace almost equal to the the impact of the slash. If it is an explosive projectile, the only impact would be of the explosion, so the momentum and the force of impace just of the mass of the projectile wouldn't be considered in the damage of the atack, as they explode.
Naruto BM's bijuu dama can do half of what that explosion did(I'm disconsidering possible loss of energy due to the impact of the bijuu damas and the energy lost in the motion), powerful enough to obliterate some moutains.
Again, I suppose it's safe to say that PS can rival 50% kurama with jin.
But what about 100% kurama? I don't think so, as we don't have many of it's feats, but we have a little bit of evidence to say that, I'll show it here.
Hashirama, some chapters ago, was keeping up with madara's PS using the mokuton goubi no jutsu. Also, in the past, hashi's goubi was able to hold madara's PS slash. So, it's safe to say that mokuton goubi can rival the PS.( Hashirama was in SM, ot might be a senpou goubi, but let's remember that his edo tensei is ALMOST at full power, and madara's PS is more powerful than it was in the past, thanks to the rinnegan and to the senju cells giving him a little boost)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
However, what about the goubi vs kurama? Let's see:
You must be registered for see images
Here, madara says "the mokuton goubi no jutsu, to fight against beasts?" What does this mean? It most likely means that madara is criticizing the fact that the goubi can't take a fight against that bijuu. What bijuu? 100% kurama, of course.
Now, some of you might say that "oh, but it's kurama with PS". True indeed, but let's see what took the goubi down:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Here it is shown that the goubi started to colapse after the explosion, The explosion was a result of the bijuu dama used by 100% kurama. Of course, the goubi wasn't made for tanking, but we saw that it can hold madara's PS and it's slash(with kurama)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see links
Also, the goubi withstood madara's PS in here:
You must be registered for see images
He took it, but stood, as shown later in battle, here:
You must be registered for see images
With this, I want to conclude that the PS(madara's EMS PS, at least) is at least as powerful as 50% kurama with jin, probably even above but it's not in 100% kurama's lvl. It's likely to be close, but not as powerful.
As another conclusion, sasuke, who has the potential to one day, surpass madara, may achieve a PS that rivals 100% kurama. But so far, it's PS was just awakened, so it has, in the best case scenario, the power of madara's EMS PS.
Maybe, even weaker, as even the size it's just half as madara's size. So, sasuke's PS would be at best, in the same lvl as 50% kurama with jin.
Again: I am NOT saying that 100% kurama beats madara or PS, I'm checking the destructive power, not the outcome of the battle, so don't answer as if I were saying that. I am also not comparing their sizes, the only time I talked about size was about sasuke's PS, and only that. When it's about kurama, when it's about goubi, in none of these parts I cared about size.
Now, to Naruto BSM.
You must be registered for see images
Power- We saw that naruto bijuu mode has an amazing destructive power. He can create a bijuu dama(TBB) powerful enough to match 5 bijuus' TBBs. We saw that he can easily create a chou mini bijuu dama and rasen shuriken. He can also make a full body kyuubi with chakra, or use chakra arms.Scans below
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Speed- We saw that naruto BM has a great speed, being compared ans mistaken with the yondaime hokage, minato. Naruto is probably the second or third faster shinobi(there is Juubito, how is probablt first or second, minato, who is 1st or 2nd, and naruto BM). Scans below
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Defense- Naruto BM's body is fulled with kurama's chakra, which already helps in the defense. Naruto can asol use chakra to make a chakra made kurama, that protects his main body. He can also make chakra projections of parts of kurama's body to protect himself. Scans below
You must be registered for see images
Naruto BM can also make clones(kage bushin), clones in SM, KCM and even BM. We saw that SM naruto cone is kage lvl, and so is the KCM clone. The BM naruto clones have great power as well, even matching obito. Scans below.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
So, basically, naruto BM has a great fire power, his speed is insane and he has a good defense. The kage bushins can be used to create a diversion or to atack as well, because the clones are very powerul too.
We all know how SM works:
This is very important: after entering SM, the atributes of the user get a serious power up(strength, durability, speed, etc)
Now, let's understand what happens in BSM. Naruto is in BM, and then, he enters sage mode. Kurama's chackra can sync perfectly with senjutsu chakra. Naruto enters BSM.
In this situation, it's easy to see that, for BSM, Naruto BM acts as a base form. What does this mean? It means that BSM is an amplified version of the BM, all the atributes were increased, as it is how the SM works.
SM was portrayed as a multiplier, increasing the user's atributes in proportions. In this case:
Naruto BSM/ Naruto BM= Naruto SM/ Naruto base form= X. X is the constant of multiplication of the SM, the multiplying factor of the SM.
So you multiply by X thr atributes of the base form, in this case, naruto BM is a base form to BSM.
As kurama's chakra managed to sync perfectly with the SM, being in BM doesn't prevent the multiplying factor to be applied.
Another thing people say is: "Ah, but kurama comes from juubi, so it's natural energy, so it doesn't increase the power". That's a mistake. The bijuu chakras clearly changed from when they were the juubi, and from when they were natural energy. Bijuu chakra=/= natural energy and =/= senjutsu chakra.
The proof is that naruto needed to enter SM to affect obito, even while in KCM and BM. And even juugo's sage chakra from his sage transformation, that is an incomplete SM, could do it. And let's remember that juugo's senjuutsu was mixed with susanoo So, kurama's chakra is very different from senjutsu chakra and from natural energy.
Another thing is that: "NO, because BM is more powerful, so SM wouldn't make a diference". This is false. When naruto enters SM in BM, naruto is in sync with all of kurama's chakra. BM acts like a base form to BSM. Naruto gathers natural energy to make the balance with all that chakra, his plus kurama's. That's why his power would get amplified either way, because he is balancing natural energy with his BM, and not just with his chakra.
That means that the multiplier is still aplied.
With BSM, compared to BM, naruto is stronger, is faster, more resistant, more durable can heal himself faster and better, is more powerful, has better reflex, and has better sensor abilities.
You must be registered for see images
This is very important: after entering SM, the atributes of the user get a serious power up(strength, durability, speed, etc)
Now, let's understand what happens in BSM. Naruto is in BM, and then, he enters sage mode. Kurama's chackra can sync perfectly with senjutsu chakra. Naruto enters BSM.
In this situation, it's easy to see that, for BSM, Naruto BM acts as a base form. What does this mean? It means that BSM is an amplified version of the BM, all the atributes were increased, as it is how the SM works.
SM was portrayed as a multiplier, increasing the user's atributes in proportions. In this case:
Naruto BSM/ Naruto BM= Naruto SM/ Naruto base form= X. X is the constant of multiplication of the SM, the multiplying factor of the SM.
So you multiply by X thr atributes of the base form, in this case, naruto BM is a base form to BSM.
As kurama's chakra managed to sync perfectly with the SM, being in BM doesn't prevent the multiplying factor to be applied.
Another thing people say is: "Ah, but kurama comes from juubi, so it's natural energy, so it doesn't increase the power". That's a mistake. The bijuu chakras clearly changed from when they were the juubi, and from when they were natural energy. Bijuu chakra=/= natural energy and =/= senjutsu chakra.
The proof is that naruto needed to enter SM to affect obito, even while in KCM and BM. And even juugo's sage chakra from his sage transformation, that is an incomplete SM, could do it. And let's remember that juugo's senjuutsu was mixed with susanoo So, kurama's chakra is very different from senjutsu chakra and from natural energy.
Another thing is that: "NO, because BM is more powerful, so SM wouldn't make a diference". This is false. When naruto enters SM in BM, naruto is in sync with all of kurama's chakra. BM acts like a base form to BSM. Naruto gathers natural energy to make the balance with all that chakra, his plus kurama's. That's why his power would get amplified either way, because he is balancing natural energy with his BM, and not just with his chakra.
That means that the multiplier is still aplied.
With BSM, compared to BM, naruto is stronger, is faster, more resistant, more durable can heal himself faster and better, is more powerful, has better reflex, and has better sensor abilities.
At last
Now, I didn't have time ro write a full analysis of sasuke. However, as seen with PS, BSM naruto can surpass in fire power sasuke's PS. BM has a great resistance, and with that amplified by SM, he has a big chance to tank some of sasuke's atacks.
Not only that, but with BSM, he can sense danger and chakra perfectly, and with his BSM speed and reaction speed, he can dodge sasuke's atacks such as enton, amaterasu, arrows and PS slash.
Besides, naruto has kurama chakra projections, as well as kage bushin. Kage bushins can be used for distraction and to make powerful atacks, as a BM or BSM clone is very powerful, and 1 or 2 would manage to keep sasuke even busier.
Besides, a combo with these clones, such as continous bijuu dama with clones, could definilly surround sasuke and take his PS down.
BSM naruto can beat sasuke with PS, with high diff or perhaps very high diff.
Not only that, but with BSM, he can sense danger and chakra perfectly, and with his BSM speed and reaction speed, he can dodge sasuke's atacks such as enton, amaterasu, arrows and PS slash.
Besides, naruto has kurama chakra projections, as well as kage bushin. Kage bushins can be used for distraction and to make powerful atacks, as a BM or BSM clone is very powerful, and 1 or 2 would manage to keep sasuke even busier.
Besides, a combo with these clones, such as continous bijuu dama with clones, could definilly surround sasuke and take his PS down.
BSM naruto can beat sasuke with PS, with high diff or perhaps very high diff.
So, this it it. Read everything before posting. I know it's big, but it must be done. If you don't have arguments or logic to back up your opinion, keep it for yourself.
Also, I know BSM naruto no longer exists, and both chars are near death. This, however, has nothing to do with the point of the thread
Sorry for the wall of text, thanks for the attention.
Last edited:
