Broken Shadow Clones

[RelegatedBliss]

I've always felt they missed a lot of potential with this.

Anyone who can make a shadow clone (or any clone that has the same kind of properties) essentially has the potential to learn things faster than normal.

Naruto, with his capability of making so many of them, is just broken in a way that they never fully delve into.

They only show a glimpse of it when he's learning the wind style rasengan.

But then they never do that again.

He could commit himself to learning anything at all in that way, and the time and effort it would take him is cut down proportionally to the number of clones doing it.

While it's not going to be as broken in terms of learning existing skills as a Sharingan... it would still make Naruto able to pick up skills faster than any non Sharingan user. And in terms of developing new skills and techniques, it would make him one of the fastest anywhere... should he commit himself to it.

Throw in Kurama's help (both with training and chakra) and you expand that even further. This goes for anything, from ninjutsu, to taijutsu, to non combat skills like math, history, etc.
I think the only one that would be hampered would be genjutsu, since it might cause the clones to vanish... but he'd still be able to learn it this way for some aspects of it.


TLDR:
Naruto should be one of the most broken characters in the entire series, even more than he is already, but no one in the series ever thought of it beyond learning one technique.

 

[Torche]

That is what you call "Plot-restricted," imo.

 

[A$AP Wap]

you could also put someone in Tsukuyomi and give them three days worth of training in 3 seconds

 

[RelegatedBliss]

you could also put someone in Tsukuyomi and give them three days worth of training in 3 seconds

You could. But that's limited to only one person. There's also questions about how much control the person has. Obviously 3 days don't go by in that time. So would the person performing the Tsukuyomi actually have control? Or did they simply implant a basic suggestion at the time of casting it? IE: Cause pain.

Due to the fact that they are not actually taken to some other dimension I would imagine the actual capability to teach complicated subject matter would be limited.

Clones are there, physically, and learn in real time. So we know for a fact they work in such a way as to make it possible.
They are also more diverse, and do not require the teacher to have any special skill other than what's being taught. Naruto could, as an example, make 100+ clones and focus on one subject, or he could send each one to learn from a different instructor.

 

[Torche]

you could also put someone in Tsukuyomi and give them three days worth of training in 3 seconds

That would only be mentally though.

 

[A$AP Wap]

You could. But that's limited to only one person. There's also questions about how much control the person has. Obviously 3 days don't go by in that time. So would the person performing the Tsukuyomi actually have control? Or did they simply implant a basic suggestion at the time of casting it? IE: Cause pain.

Due to the fact that they are not actually taken to some other dimension I would imagine the actual capability to teach complicated subject matter would be limited.

Clones are there, physically, and learn in real time. So we know for a fact they work in such a way as to make it possible.
They are also more diverse, and do not require the teacher to have any special skill other than what's being taught. Naruto could, as an example, make 100+ clones and focus on one subject, or he could send each one to learn from a different instructor.

tsukuyomi is basically your own illusion that you can fix up any way that you wanted

That would only be mentally though.

mental training is not too far off from physical training
you could work out in your head and still gain muscle mass, although not as much as someone who actually worked out, you still gain from it

they did a study on 2 groups and asked one group to play the piano physically and the other to play it mentally for a set amount of time. the group that did it physically ofc learned, but the group that did it mentally could easily catch up to the group that did it physically in a short amount of time

 

[Torche]

mental training is not too far off from physical training
you could work out in your head and still gain muscle mass, although not as much as someone who actually worked out, you still gain from it

they did a study on 2 groups and asked one group to play the piano physically and the other to play it mentally for a set amount of time. the group that did it physically ofc learned, but the group that did it mentally could easily catch up to the group that did it physically in a short amount of time

True.

Very interesting. :hmm:

 

[RelegatedBliss]

tsukuyomi is basically your own illusion that you can fix up any way that you wanted

Yes, but you are not actually "there".
So if you put someone under that illusion, it's more like putting on a Video to teach them something. Only what you put in the illusion at the start makes it there.
Anything you don't isn't going to be there. So if the person you're teaching that way has some difficulties or questions with something, there's no way for them to really convey that to you.

For something like what we've seen it used for, it's pretty damned useful. But for something like teaching, which can have a lot of back and forth questions and individual stumbling blocks, it's not going to be quite as efficient.

I'd imagine you could use much shorter sessions to very good effect however. IE: a few hours worth of "teaching" within a few seconds. Come out, ask questions/get feedback, then onto the next session.

So you wouldn't get 3 days worth of training in seconds, but you could likely count on cutting the time in half quite easily.

 

[awesomeseimei]

Like my brother once said, if they were to use all their skills to the maximal efficiency, it'd be a mess where everyone would die quickly, and probably a fairly boring one since it would leave less room for showy moves. There are many potentially broken yet simple things like the notorious Replacement Jutsu, but if we just saw everyone doing that over and over again, it wouldn't make a good story.

 

[A$AP Wap]

Yes, but you are not actually "there".
So if you put someone under that illusion, it's more like putting on a Video to teach them something. Only what you put in the illusion at the start makes it there.
Anything you don't isn't going to be there. So if the person you're teaching that way has some difficulties or questions with something, there's no way for them to really convey that to you.

For something like what we've seen it used for, it's pretty damned useful. But for something like teaching, which can have a lot of back and forth questions and individual stumbling blocks, it's not going to be quite as efficient.

I'd imagine you could use much shorter sessions to very good effect however. IE: a few hours worth of "teaching" within a few seconds. Come out, ask questions/get feedback, then onto the next session.

So you wouldn't get 3 days worth of training in seconds, but you could likely count on cutting the time in half quite easily.

itachi had millions of clones stabbing kakashi for 3 days
itachi could of told kakashi the entire plot of Avatar in that amount of time instead of stabbing him

i'm pretty sure kakashi remembered all of that

Like my brother once said, if they were to use all their skills to the maximal efficiency, it'd be a mess where everyone would die quickly, and probably a fairly boring one since it would leave less room for showy moves. There are many potentially broken yet simple things like the notorious Replacement Jutsu, but if we just saw everyone doing that over and over again, it wouldn't make a good story.

the story should of had all those broken things the OP described instead of making Sharingan OP as shit with all the extra ass Jutsu like Susano'o and shit

 

[RelegatedBliss]

itachi had millions of clones stabbing kakashi for 3 days
itachi could of told kakashi the entire plot of Avatar in that amount of time instead of stabbing him

i'm pretty sure kakashi remembered all of that

Sure.

But that's easy.
Itachie: Go into the illusion, mock Kakashi and stab him for 3 days.
or
"go read the entire plot of Avatar to him"

That's WAY different than.
"Teach teach them _____. Answer any questions they have, help them with areas they are having trouble with".

For one, it's a LOT more information than "stab him for 3 days".
For two... what questions would the prospective student have? What do they know/remember already? What areas in a given subject would they have issues with?

Itachi, as an example, isn't actually "there". So it's not like he can adjust the illusion in real time.
Teaching is far different than inflicting pain or discomfort on someone, and to do it right requires interaction. That's an area where this wouldn't be anywhere near as effective.

 

[A$AP Wap]

Sure.

But that's easy.
Itachie: Go into the illusion, mock Kakashi and stab him for 3 days.
or
"go read the entire plot of Avatar to him"

That's WAY different than.
"Teach teach them _____. Answer any questions they have, help them with areas they are having trouble with".

For one, it's a LOT more information than "stab him for 3 days".
For two... what questions would the prospective student have? What do they know/remember already? What areas in a given subject would they have issues with?

Itachi, as an example, isn't actually "there". So it's not like he can adjust the illusion in real time.
Teaching is far different than inflicting pain or discomfort on someone, and to do it right requires interaction. That's an area where this wouldn't be anywhere near as effective.

no, it's pretty much the same
itachi's still teaching him and answering his questions

it's itachi's own illusion so he could do anything he wanted
he was still talking in Tsukuyomi Land, right?

you could potentially teach the guy in Tsukuyomi by talking in the background the whole time and using a fake Itachi to train with the person

tsukuyomi could potentially be a hyperbolic time chamber
just do that every day of the week (with a bit of inrl training) and that's basically an entire month of training in a week's time

 

[awesomeseimei]

itachi could of told kakashi the entire plot of Avatar in that amount of time instead of stabbing him

Lol

the story should of had all those broken things the OP described instead of making Sharingan OP as shit with all the extra ass Jutsu like Susano'o and shit

I'd rather there was less broken and OP stuff, instead going for more balanced everything.

 

[A$AP Wap]

Lol



I'd rather there was less broken and OP stuff, instead going for more balanced everything.

yeah Part 1 was kinda balanced
they could of increased the power in the series by having Naruto train with Shadow Clones and abusing ninja techs like Tsukuyomi and Replacement Jutsu etc

the whole meteor stuff was a bit too much

 

[RelegatedBliss]

no, it's pretty much the same
itachi's still teaching him and answering his questions

it's itachi's own illusion so he could put himself there and do anything he wanted

tsukuyomi could potentially be a hyperbolic time chamber
just do that every day of the week (with a bit of inrl training) and that's basically an entire month of training in a week's time

They have never shown it to have that capability.
Itachi is smart, but he doesn't have the answer to every hypothetical question.

It also has the flaw of requiring a very limited number of people that could use it (currently now only 1). So anything they don't know, they can't teach.

If they didn't anticipate the question, then they can't input it into the training. Which means any given session could be horribly unproductive as it would need to "end" before it could be adjusted and restart.

But, as you said, and I stated earlier. You could have shorter sessions with feedback. It would indeed be a very effective training tool for certain things. Especially since you could likely control aspects of the illusion such as "they don't get tired, need no sleep, never get hungry, etc".

All in all, however, the clones are far more versatile since not everyone is walking around with a Sharingan, and even when there were more of those around, only a few could use tsukuyomi.

And I agree it's plot restricted... but at the same time, they DID bring it up. It never made sense that they never brought it up again, or that they didn't add some stipulation to it that made it unattractive to use.
The occasional clone turning into a 9 tails isn't even an issue anymore for instance, and that was about the only potential negative the training had.

 

[awesomeseimei]

yeah Part 1 was kinda balanced
they could of increased the power in the series by having Naruto train with Shadow Clones and abusing ninja techs like Tsukuyomi and Replacement Jutsu etc

the whole meteor stuff was a bit too much

Indeed. I don't actually mind large-scale attacks, but it's just too much when power is spread so unevenly between characters. Not to mention, most ninja who specialize in non-combat tasks don't really seem to matter when there are those who can freely destroy mountains.

Ideally, more characters should have shown gradual increase in power. Sure, some would be still stronger than others, but not to the point where just one can destroy almost everyone else... At once.

 

[RelegatedBliss]

Indeed. I don't actually mind large-scale attacks, but it's just too much when power is spread so unevenly between characters. Not to mention, most ninja who specialize in non-combat tasks don't really seem to matter when there are those who can freely destroy mountains.

Ideally, more characters should have shown gradual increase in power. Sure, some would be still stronger than others, but not to the point where just one can destroy almost everyone else... At once.

Yeah, that I agree with. I think the power Pain/Pein showed, along with Naruto in the 9 tails mode there was as destructive as things should have gotten.

Having Naruto be less of a headstrong idiot that charges in with one move would have been far superior to just getting so crazy powered up that he can just charge in and shrug off most attacks.

I would have liked to see him basically train with Guy/Lee, and Shikimaru and others to basically become a very well rounded fighter with a range of close/mid/long range moves to compliment his crazy high stamina.

But, alas... they taught him Sage mode in an awesome story and character arc... and then promptly made it all irrelevant by turning the character into someone from DBZ after that.

 

[awesomeseimei]

And I agree it's plot restricted... but at the same time, they DID bring it up. It never made sense that they never brought it up again, or that they didn't add some stipulation to it that made it unattractive to use.
The occasional clone turning into a 9 tails isn't even an issue anymore for instance, and that was about the only potential negative the training had.

About that, yes, I don't like it either when there are seemingly only advantages to something extremely useful with no drawbacks (in fiction; in real life, I wouldn't mind, lol). It has the same feel as flawless, all-round good characters.

 

[Michael]

Hey look a thread upon a topic which i've already covered. Nice job anyways, +Rep.

 

[awesomeseimei]

Hey look a thread upon a topic which i've already covered. Nice job anyways, +Rep.

Better than the overdone pairing threads anyway