[Theory] Black Zetsu: Agent of The Sage

[Aim64C]

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Note the symbol upon the seal - the concentric circles denoting the 'paths' of Buddhism (The theme behind the Sage of Six Paths).

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Which makes me strongly question just how much Black Zetsu really knows:

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There are multiple problems, here.

First and foremost - Hagoromo 'knows nothing.' The man can send his soul through time. That is about all that need be said about how silly it sounds to say: "Hagoromo does not know."

Also mentioned is Ninshuu. Hagoromo gives a flowery talk of peace and understanding - but do we really believe that he failed to understand where people would take Ninshuu?

And who left behind the tablet for it to be altered?

There is also the fact that Hagoromo specifically failed to speak much of Kaguya's fate. At least to Naruto.

So what was said to Sasuke, and why does he seem to know so much about sealing Kaguya?

Another point that makes me question just how much of Zetsu's story should be taken as the end-all authority:

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We were just told that the Moon was created to seal the Juubi - yet, apparently, Infinite Tsukuyomi has been used once before.

When Infinite Tsukuyomi shines upon the moon - it would ensnare the whole world.

The only assumption that can be made is that, prior to the moon existing, Infinite Tsukuyomi was a more limited technique akin to Shisui's absolute hypnosis (or whatever that technique was called - apparently it was pretty unique).

Which means that the Sage created the very thing that could end the world - the moon.

Without it - Infinite Tsukuyomi on a global scale would be one hellacious undertaking and allow for people to rise up and fight against the threat of being hypnotized and turned into Zetsu.

For Hagoromo not to know about any of this... seems like a bit of a stretch.

It would seem more likely that Black Zetsu was created by the sage from a portion of Kaguya upon her sealing. Black Zetsu was then deluded into believing it was one of her children and the Sage pretended as if Black Zetsu didn't exist, leaving behind all of the tools needed to bring Kaguya back.

The question, though, is why.

 

[Trúth]

I dont think so sorry. Plus any more plot twists would really piss me off

 

[Angelic.]

no. not this plot twist. bz altered it, hagos a blind old coot. madara used rikodou seal on obitos heart

hago:i dont know how to defeat kaguya lol

 

[Ver55e]

Black zetsu is still a mystery

 

[InvaderRaz]

Well thought out like most of your threads but no... I do not see this at all, to me this is very similar to the "madara is still the superior mastermind" threads. People need to learn to accept that certain character will never live up their own hype, or the hype of people on the base.

 

[Byron123]

As a matter of fact I think that there is high possibility of you being correct. Hagoromo was preety enigmatic throughough the whole conversation. I don't say that it's a guarantee but simply it's not something to be ruled out. However plot-wise, would be good? I mean if what you say is correct, then BZ will have changed "owner" 3 times?! Isn't a bit too much? After all the series are called naruto, not who is BZ. I think though that his relationship to SZ is bigger than we think.

 

[Aim64C]

no. not this plot twist. bz altered it, hagos a blind old coot. madara used rikodou seal on obitos heart

hago:i dont know how to defeat kaguya lol

It's not really a plot twist. It borderlines on the obvious.

Why would the Sage send his soul into the future? Sages are not supposed to meddle past their time.

Unless he knew there would be something to watch.

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If he didn't think they would do that - why leave the stone tablet for them to reconsider?

This man is supposed to be a sage. He's clearly shown as being intelligent (to a point where his natural state is confusing and unidentifiable - which actually stands as evidence that he is not, in fact, a true sage) - and he's supposed to be wise.

Why would he give Naruto and Sasuke the power to seal Kaguya if he did not anticipate that she would come back? If such was the reason for him sending his soul into the future....

You see what I mean? The man is up to something and should not be seen as stupid.

He's a fallen sage - a Sage of the Outer Path - one who believes the ends justify the means. If Kaguya's method was overt suppression/oppression (which I do not believe it originally was) - Hagoromo's method is subterfuge and manipulation.

He doesn't truly believe that power should be divided and entrusted to others (else he would never have sent himself into the future or left merely a stone tablet to tell the story of Kaguya). He simply learned from watching Kaguya that people would revolt against obvious and intrusive powers.

The Sage of Six Paths has Outer Path connotations for a reason. He's obsessed with human suffering and feels the need to change it for everyone. This is entirely the wrong method and entirely the wrong teaching according to all but the most heretical sects of Buddhism. One gains mastery over his own life by accepting the natural cycle of human events that typically causes suffering. Rather than falling into emotional turmoil over the fact that you are hungry, you accept that it is a part of the experience of life and do not let the physical sensations ruin your experience of life.

Because the Sage has become so wrapped up in affairs of others - he has 'fallen' and has begun suffering because he can't accept that other people are suffering. Therefor he has embraced a philosophy of justifying the ends with the means.

I am sure that we will find out that Kaguya's devolving into a tyrannical madwoman is also due to his well-intentioned meddling.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I am inclined to think that Hagoromo had acquiescence of the Tablet's tampering, perhaps he is not an agent in the strictest sense of the word but an unwitting pawn.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

And if we put into question the philosophy of the Sage:

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What moral right does he to give Chakra to the masses? a power his mother stole in the first place? did not the Buddha say "one cannot keep for good, one can only maintain for evil" the idea of using Chakra to establish peace and foster understanding is completely antithetic to the Inner Path of Enlightenment in Buddhism, and that is why the Rinnegan has all the Outer Path connotations, which are false and heretical.

 

[Sir Derp Troll]

No, that would be stupid and pointless.

 

[Angelic.]

he did seem shady. idk about bad... i was wondering what he believed happened to his mother. perhaps he tried something against her..

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

This is taken from the Tao Te Ching regarding the proper conduct and actions of a Sage:

The sage does not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). He does not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use his heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). He who will try to do something with the world will fail, he will actually ruin it.

They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace

Seekers see the sage as someone transparently open, without any cleverness at all and, yet, the seeker knows that the sage is obviously no one's fool! This is perhaps what is meant by the words: <The sage is anchored in peace and harmony>. But what the seeker actually sees is that while the sage is not particularly keen to offer any advice, he does so when asked, with a great deal of simplicity, confidence, and utter humility.

 

[Byron123]

This is taken from the Tao Te Ching regarding the proper conduct and actions of a Sage:

The sage does not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). He does not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use his heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). He who will try to do something with the world will fail, he will actually ruin it.

They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace

Seekers see the sage as someone transparently open, without any cleverness at all and, yet, the seeker knows that the sage is obviously no one's fool! This is perhaps what is meant by the words: <The sage is anchored in peace and harmony>. But what the seeker actually sees is that while the sage is not particularly keen to offer any advice, he does so when asked, with a great deal of simplicity, confidence, and utter humility.

Damn! I guess that the message was delivered XD

 

[Aim64C]

As a matter of fact I think that there is high possibility of you being correct. Hagoromo was preety enigmatic throughough the whole conversation. I don't say that it's a guarantee but simply it's not something to be ruled out. However plot-wise, would be good? I mean if what you say is correct, then BZ will have changed "owner" 3 times?! Isn't a bit too much? After all the series are called naruto, not who is BZ. I think though that his relationship to SZ is bigger than we think.

Zetsu is an arbitrary character that is a product of circumstances as opposed to a causal factor of them.

The series has long dealt with the concept of destiny:

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A thread of mine from almost a year ago.

Naruto is the descendant of the original tree shaman -

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The tree shaman, who would later form the village of the Hidden Eddies on the island where Wakunochi-No-Kami resided, tended to the Holy Tree and were the progenitors of both the sage and sealing arts. From watching and observing the Holy Tree, as well as nature itself, they learned to direct the natural flow of energy in the universe through inscriptions and through rituals.

Then you have the Ototsuki - or Hyuuga - or those who originated the Byakugan. They represent the divination of Taiji - the cycle of yin and yang as well as the cycle of energy within the mundane world. Perhaps they come from the stars, perhaps they come from an inner dimension - their exact origin is not as important as the concept of their existence. The Byakugan represents the divine light of inspiration - the state of true yang.

As such - the Byakugan can gaze upon the absolute of the Tao. Which is why the Hyuuga preoccupy themselves with destiny.

These two lineages predate the Sage - as illustrated by Kaguya, but hinted at prior:

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The swirl in the middle is Taiji and Wuji interacting to form the primal forces of Yin and Yang. This creates the four phenomena that radiate out from it (this ties back into the Shinto lore, later - specifically the mechanics of Tsukuyomi) - being Taiyang, Shaoyang, Taiyin, and Shaoyin. These interact to form the Bagua - the eight fundamental forces of the mundane world.

But it is curious that the Bagua are depicted as triangles.

The key is the square located in the upper left of the seal. It is the symbol for the Sun and the sun goddess Amaterasu.

The circle forming the spiral is the symbol for the moon - the moon god Tsukuyomi.

The triangles around the moon are the symbol for the stars and the god of the tempest - Susano'o no mikoto.

The sun (yang) shines upon the moon (yin) and forms the tempest (cycling of yin to yang and yang to yin).

This forms the Japanese concept of Taoism as it merges with Shintoism.

It is also worth noting that, according to the New Heaven arrangement of Bagua - the element 'missing' from the Bagua arrangement is lightning - the element of division. Which would mean that the seal's key is altering the division of forces.

That one of the major conflicts rests with one who holds the Byakugan was predictable - particularly once Kaguya's existence was made known.

The Hyuuga and the Uzumaki likely had a pivotal role in the 'old world' before the Sage; it was the folly of Kaguya to fall in love and the transgressions of the Sage that gave rise to the major conflicts that persist to this day. As such - Naruto is a character destined to set the tone for another time period.

Which is why the symbol he inherited from the Sage is a full moon - "Return." It is the return of yang to yin. Though there is probably another meaning behind it (Sasuke's is a waxing gibbous, which is the final stages of yin migrating to yang - so the two are not a perfect mirror of each other).

But at this point, I'm rambling.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

This is quite petty, but just look at the face:

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^That is the face of someone who is up to something.

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[Aim64C]

This is taken from the Tao Te Ching regarding the proper conduct and actions of a Sage:

The sage does not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). He does not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use his heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). He who will try to do something with the world will fail, he will actually ruin it.

They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace

Seekers see the sage as someone transparently open, without any cleverness at all and, yet, the seeker knows that the sage is obviously no one's fool! This is perhaps what is meant by the words: <The sage is anchored in peace and harmony>. But what the seeker actually sees is that while the sage is not particularly keen to offer any advice, he does so when asked, with a great deal of simplicity, confidence, and utter humility.

This, exactly.

I think the Sage is ultimately the tragic villain of the series. He's so concerned with the fate of life that he's resorted to controlling life (or trying to) in order to "keep for good."

I suspect that he originally did something to Kaguya to cause her to turn into the rampaging maniac she became - but it's hard to tell, it's not as if Kaguya was perfect. I suspect that much of the problem could be said to have been 'caused' by her lingering.

If the fruit of the tree is seen as a sort of divine inspiration - or an elixir of life - then she should ascend to the realm of the Gods upon consuming it, rather than linger with it like she did. I strongly suspect her 'sin' was similar to the Sage in that she fell in love with the world and became attached to its affairs. Then, because Hagoromo was a confused young man with more power than sense - decided to try and do something to get her to go 'where she belonged.'

Then she went insane and started turning people into Zetsu.

And then because Hagoromo hadn't learned from all of that - he thought he would engineer her return - or her re-sealing - for purposes we can only guess at at the moment (he could want many different things to come from this).

 

[Aim64C]

This is quite petty, but just look at the face:

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^That is the face of someone who is up to something.

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It's the squinty-eyes.

Classic artistic means of conveying a sinister or manipulative character.

In contrast - a character conveying innocence or empathetic imagery has wide open or "bright" eyes:

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[ssjelf]

Don't know why you guys get all hung up on the details. Yes the sage is heretical. He is imperfect and obviously did some things that have been ultimately bad for the world.

But no one is perfect, not even the So6p who throughout Naruto was chalked up to be the ultimate person. Yet when introduced, he has flaws like anyone else. When given an opportunity to make the world a better place, the sage took it and unfortunately he wasn't able to succeed. The same can be said for many inventions. Things that were intended for good i.e. dynamite, it revolutionized industry, but ultimately was used for warring purposes, it is the nature of men.

I think Kishi message with the sage is that no one is perfect. It isn't that there is a hidden intention, but that sometimes good intentions go wrong. The sage is a figure who tried to enlighten humanity, but his intervention fell prey to human nature. I don't know why, but for some reason you can't accept the sage as flawed, like any other. Any mistake he made, or any wording that is vague or can be misinterpreted is.

As for the sage lingering, well one could argue that his work isn't done, his problem has affected the current generation and so he has been forced to deal with his problem that he created.

Finally, Kishi is Kishi. The story isn't a parable for Buddhist teaching. What may be suggested by analyzing religious texts may not have any meaning to the story because of Kishi's desire to accomplish something within the story. It does provide some insight as to why something is written the way it is, but it is best not to jump to conclusions because of them. Just because the sage is not an ideal Buddhist sage, does not make him evil in any way either.

 

[Zol]

I read all that, but still don't see any hint at all that Hagoromo is a villain. Honestly. The whole "theory" seems to be based around the premise that him not knowing everything can't be true. But the thing is, from everything we read, it is true. He wasn't omniscient, he was just a person with faults like everbody else.

 

[narutoblitz]

NB is underestimating the S06P and also under-estimating Madara. Typical of NB's band-wagon effect we're all just talking Black Zetsu at face value. The truth is complicated. BZ *thinks* he is manipulating everyone. The reality is he probably has a puppet seal on him as well. Madara likely knew it wasn't his own chakra in Black Zetsu. If Rinnegan can't see thru Zetsu's ability, that makes Rinnegan pretty shit-tier IMO